Europe Faces A 'real Threat' From Russia, Warns US Army Commander
Source: Telegraph UK
By Justin Huggler, Wiesbaden
3:18PM BST 18 Apr 2015
The commander of the US army in Europe has warned that Nato must remain united in the face of a "real threat" from Russia.
"It's not an assumption. There is a Russian threat," Lt-Gen Frederick "Ben" Hodges said.
"You've got the Russian ambassador threatening that Denmark will be a nuclear target if it participates in any missile defence programme. And when you look at the unsafe way Russian aircraft are flying without transponders in proximity to civilian aircraft, that's not professional conduct."
Gen Hodges spoke to the Telegraph on the sidelines of a military debriefing after an exercise to move live Patriot missiles 750 miles across Europe by road and deploy them on the outskirts of Warsaw.
Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/11547247/Europe-faces-a-real-threat-from-Russia-warns-US-army-commander.html
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jakeXT
(10,575 posts)Geronimoe
(1,539 posts)His moving live Patriot missiles system to Warsaw is threat to Russia.
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)How are defensive missiles a threat?
newthinking
(3,982 posts)
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)You know, the one with supposed NATO bases in at least three different CIS countries.
Because that's totally accurate and makes sense.
Lionel Mandrake
(4,076 posts)Patriot missiles don't really work very well, except to piss off the Russians.
Russia has been invaded repeatedly in modern times by armies from Western Europe. So they're paranoid. We should remembert that.
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)I doubt the smaller NATO countries near Russia feel that way.
Russia has invaded repeatedly in modern times countries in Europe.
Lionel Mandrake
(4,076 posts)and that's not nice, but common sense and geography will prevent us from doing anything about it. It's not the job of the USA to right every wrong in the world.
NATO was formed to protect Western Europe from being overrun by Soviet tanks and troops. That mission, and the need for NATO, ended with the breakup of the Soviet Union.
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)The whole point of defense treaties is to help allies in case of attack. And I doubt the smaller Baltic States feels the danger of Soviet invasion ended with the USSR.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Ukraine and Georgia sure seem to think otherwise.
Lionel Mandrake
(4,076 posts)And the geography is such that NATO could not possibly defend either of those places against an invasion by Russian ground forces.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Some people seem to forget that.
Lionel Mandrake
(4,076 posts)and NATO agrees. A law-abiding, ethical person like Putin would just have to live with it. How could I have thought he might invade a former Soviet state like Georgia or Ukraine?
okaawhatever
(9,461 posts)
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)Back then the Soviet bloc was routinely referred to as "the Threat" in military training exercises and classrooms. 
.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)I must've missed that.
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)Are you scared yet?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)Am I afraid of a Russian threat to the US? Hell no. Is Russia a threat to Europe? Considering they've invaded and carved up one European country now and they're trying to carrot-and-stick the EU apart, yes, I'd say so.
bluedigger
(17,086 posts)Or we could just throw a few more billion $ to DOD and do it for them. That would probably work even better for them, too. And our own MIC as well, of course. Can't forget them.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
elleng
(130,865 posts)Purveyor
(29,876 posts)bunker or something.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts) Purveyor
(29,876 posts)
okaawhatever
(9,461 posts)
MisterP
(23,730 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)with the dollar.
They have to keep up tension to keep support for economic sanctions.
We are indeed very afraid... of competition, because our economy is in tatters and the dollar is more heavily overburdened than Greece.
Wouldn't it be better to get our house in order and ready for competition than risk nuclear war?
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)
Yes, it's about the dollar.
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)Purveyor
I do not think Europe as such are in any trouble from Russia - and by the way - everyone who could read a map Should know Russia is very much a part of Europe - in fact it is a LARGE part of Europe - bigger than every other European nations together - just west of Ural....
But Russia have bee using a language the last couple of years, that have been a trouble for many - mostly because the language is rather unusual from Russia - it have been a hard nosed approach from the russian government - who until the last couple of years have used a rather soft approach to the rest of Europe...
Specially the treat of nuclear weapons - against Denmark because of it rapprochement to the Missile system US is trying to sell to Europe - against rouge states as the official language want it to be - and the treat of what a war in Europe would mean for the baltic states and such - have rattled a few to be honest - it is not what it used to be - or at least for the last 25 years - when russian leaders, for the most part treated the rest of Europe as friends - or at least as someone it was usable to work with on many programs..
And Russia have for the few last years really being messing around with its air force - everything from being intercept in or near air zones they have no business being - to outright training for nuclear attack against city's like Stockholm as they was doing last year a few times - to the scrambling of F16 fighters in our own neck of the wood - to Shadow - and to tell the russian counterparts that the Rn-AF is there - and is keeping an aye on everything - and is shadowing the russian aircrafts - that be long rang fighter jets - or long range bombers like TU95/142 Bear who is operating out of Murmansk and other military bases up north in Russia...
Not to say -the last surprise military drill who was on the russian side of Baren sea - where more than 38.000 soldiers, and equipment was activated - including, submarines, surface ships and parts of the air force - to a snap drill - to se if the russian military could be activated on a small notice.. I suspect it was able to do so - and it have anything with the fact - that NATO had a military drill in the north of Norway - who was guess of a annual military drill, who routinely was reported to the russian authorities - as it have been for the last 25 years - after agreement where both sides was able to relax when the other side had a drill or excercise... This last drill, from the russians was never told to the counterparts in Norway - or for that matter NATO - and was a spruce for everyone... But I suspect a few Elint equipment was put to the task, getting as much information about the counterparts in Russia to get to know where they stand of things... And I suspect even some old radars who have been keeping an eye on Russia for years - was fired up to get a few close ups here and there... Not to say telemetry from the many missile tests and if possible, communications scatter....
From what I know - and I have to, it is just my view on it - I suspect Russia is not as secure as they want everyone to believe - In fact I suspect Putin to be not as secure in his power a he want everyone to believe he is. Russia as a nation have a great inferior complex, going back years - not just to the end of the Soviet Union - who was painfully enough, specially the aftermath in the 1990s - but it goes all the way back to when Russia was just a small and unusual dot on most europeans mind - a weird part of europe, who for the most part was left to its own devices - and ruled by a grand duke who was more of a eastern despot than everything else.. And who had no close links to the rest of Europe... Even as Peter the Great - he who dragged Russia, against its will, and against its beard for the noble men case into the rest of Europe - when he after wisting the western powers - England, The Netherlands - the german states (who was still a century and a half to be united into a single state) deiced he wanted to reform Russia - and turn its back on centuries of traditions, going all the way back to the Byzantine empire... he was not just turning Russia upside down in the proses - but turned that sleeping giant into a powerhouse of significance - and also made sure the other emperors - going all the way to Tsar Nicolai the 2 - was able to make sure Russia was a power to reckon with in Russia.... But under all the glamor - the empires grandeur and court - Russia was always insecure about itself... Not even the power of the Soviet Union was able to make it go away - even if the communist system ruled half of Europe for 40 years - the insecurity Russia feels against the rest of Europe - and the world at large - is there under all the military might....
And the current leader of Russia, Vladimir Putin, is even for all his public blustering - a insecure man who know how limited Russia are in most matters - even if Russia have been modernizing their military for years now - and have getting a whole lot of new equipment and toys - it is still more or less in its infancy when it come to prove itself as a large player on the world state... Putin know it - the generals know it - and I suspect most of the generals and others who have a inside track about the Putin State - know it to - that Russia is still not a world player - even if they can pull of military exercisers on short notice now - something that was not possible just 10 years ago... But it is still a part of that Russian incecurity who is pinned to the spine...
Diclotican
flying rabbit
(4,632 posts)
okaawhatever
(9,461 posts)in his Presidency is excalating things. His approval ratings increased markedly after he invaded Crimea. He knows how that works.
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)okaawhatever
He know how to play the game - and to increase his ratings - Crimea and the issue with Ukraine have been simmering for years - in the west I think we have not been following it as good as we should be doing to be honest - as this have been a bloody serious thing from the perspective of Russia and russians.... Crimea have specially been serious business for Russia as they have most, if not most of the black sea forces on it - and have for years been trying to secure a more permanent deal with Ukraine over the ownership of the naval bases - and not to say the necessarily of transporting men, and equipment from Russia proper to the bases on Crimea. They even rented the land where its Black sea bases was on, from Ukraine - and lately the Ukraine government have been trying to put more pressure on Russia - to pay more for the lease than before - and then Russia hit back, first by more or less stopping the gas/petrol Ukraine -and also the gas who was transported from Russia to the eastern european counties - and also even to germany and the west - to make a statement, about their will to play hard with the Ukraine debt, who was rather high in the end as Ukraine have not been able - or for that matter willing to pay what it cost getting th gas and other necessaries from Russia....
And in the end I suspect Putin believed the conquest of Crimea should be far more easy than it was - as he believed if he just got the control over Crimea - the west would understand how silly it would be to protest to much - and accept the conquest as a fiat com-plait - and then let Russia get full control over its black sea bases - Putin might also had believed for a while, if he just got the whole of Crimea under its control - the west would again not protest to much about it - make it a reality rather than something that is not accepted by the international community at large.. I'm not sure to many other nations outside of Russia have accepted the occupying and conquest of Crimea as a fact - even if I doubt Russia wi give up Crimea to Ukraine or other nations even if it meant that Russia could go back to pre-crimera - and where the economical ties to the rest of the world would be restored...
And I aslo think Putin,and his advisor's really failed when they believed Russia would not be hurt by the consequences of its politic, when it come to Crimea and to the eastern Ukraine at whole - the last year have seen the rubble devalued almost 50 percent in less than a year - even if Russia have rebounded from the big hole it might have ended up in - if not for the fact Russia have been rather friendly with PRC the last couple of years -PRC means business - gas and oil and other valuable assets - who Russia have a lot of - and the leadership of PRC do not care to much about human rights - as long as it got what it want to make sure its public is calm, and happy - they could not care less about what Russia does on its western borders... And Russia have been rather pleased by the fact that PRC want all the gas, all the oil and whatever else Russia could offer PRC - in return for hard cash who then can be used to buy things Russia could not afford or is able to make on its own - at least not at current..
As President - mr Putin have really escalating a lot of things - before the last couple of year I was,to be honest believing Putin to be a man who was reasonable enough - compared to the late Yeltsin he was rather calm and strong - an man who doesn't fooled to much around, but was a kind of "apartasjik" - from the old guard, who was not exactly a democrat - but who was reasonable calm, and a man who was honest to his word.. I suspect I was wrong there- as I suspect most people was, when it come to the ambitions mr Putin have to make sure Russia again is a big player - a man who is taking back what Russia had been loosing since 1991...
And Russia have for some years now - been really afraid of one thing - to be encircled by NATO - who after 1990-1993, against a vocal deal between US, UK, Germany and Russia should NOT turn former Warsaw-pact nations into member states of NATO - even if it never was a formal deal between the different countries - more of a gentleman's deal between states - Russia took that deal rather seriously - Specially on the basis that they feared what a united Germany could do to Russia, if they ever was to pick up the fight again from 1945... Russia feared a united Germany - but hey feared more the fact that NATO was following step as the former eastern european satellite states was making plans for first of all - get more access to EU - and then also to NATO - in fact - most of the former eastern european block - who once was part of the Warsaw-pact - was trying its best to fast-track into membership in the alliance - as NATO was seen as the only reasonable pact against russian aggression - and that is something most of the eastern european Nations fear more than everything - and therefore one of the reasons most of them was trying to get into the alliance - as fast as they could....
From the perspective of Russia - NATO have been encroaching on a territory Russia look at their own back yard - eastern europe have "always" - at least from the late 1600 always been in the interest zone of Russia - and the fact most of then turned around a 1980 on Russia as fast as they could do it after 1991 - really shocked Russia I suspect - the traditionally level between the different states and Russia was not there anymore - They had no interest for Russia anymore - and was going westward as fast they could... Even former parts of the USSR - The baltic states was doing it best to turn away from Russia after 1991 - first in the level of NATO's Partnership for Peace - who was an important step for the baltic states - but who was troubling enough from the perspective of Russia - and then the baltic states also was made member of the alliance - in 2007 I think it was - with Romania, Bulgaria, Poland, Hungary and some other nations - who was really troublesome for Russia.. In fact, they treated already then to "do something" - but it was not followed up - an I suspect many nations was using "silent diplomacy" to make sure Russia understood what was a stake....
Diclotican
okaawhatever
(9,461 posts)who would seek military engagement with another country. He really seems to have changed since he retook the Presidency from Medvedev. I have heard some people suggest that he is now being heavily influenced by members of the Russian Orthodox Church.
I also think it has a lot to do with economics. Putin was fortunate enough to become President when oil prices began to rise and gave Russia income it hadn't had since the breakup of the Soviet Union. So many Russians think Putin improved everything, but in reality it was the increased money from oil that improved everything. He did direct that money into many of the right places, but he didn't create that money, oil revenue did. Now that oil prices are lower, Putin and Russian citizens are going to have a hard time. I think Putin is blaming the west for the bad economy in Russia, but even without the sanctions Russia was going to be in trouble from the drop in the price of oil. By blaming it on the west, Russians will continue to support him.
I don't remember if you said this or i've read it somewhere else, but i've read that Putin thinks the US or the west looked down on Russia after the breakup of the Soviet Union. Even that the American citizens look down their nose at them. No one I know thought that way. I think Americans view failure and losses differently than Russians. Most of us think failing or suffering setbacks are just part of life. President Abraham Lincoln lost every political campaign, filed bankruptcy twice, but then became one of our best Presidents. Sam Walton, the founder of WalMart, our laregest retail corporation, had two stores that failed before he started WalMart. We didn't think any less of Russia, we were just glad the USSR wasn't a military threat anymore. It is truly a shame if Putin believes that.
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)okaawhatever
Thank you - No I doubt Putin is someone who want to seek military engagement just for the fun of it - he know his boundaries rather well - and have been good at playing inside of that - well at least until he messed it up with Ukraine - when it came to Crimea - and then eastern Ukraine - who i doubt he had any idea about a mess it should become...
Some have suggested that mr Putin is indeed influenced rather heavily by the Russian Orthodox Church - who have been made some of a powerhouse under Putin - a kind of power not seen in Russia since the pre-revolutionary day. Where the church was the center of much of the divine power all tsars - from Ivan IV, the horrible - to Tsar Nicolai II who was tsar when Russia ended its monarchy - and who was executed with his family in 1917-1918 - in Yekaterinburg when a civil war between the conservatives and the Bolsheviks had rampaged the country for a while - and who ended in the early 1920s - when many ended up emigrate to the rest of Europe - and the rest either was arrested - executed or ended up in the Gulag system, who from 1928, when USSR was build, to the end in 1988, was an important way of making sure dissents was not to loud... President Yeltsin always kept the church on a arms length - even as the church was given back much of its former glory and some property - the church was still kept on leach of sorts - and the higher priest of the church understood their limits rather clear.. Even if they wanted more influence than the had under Yeltsin...
On the other hand, President Putin have been more active in promote the idea of the Orthodox church as a tool to build the new russia he want to make sure is a possibility - a nationalistic, proud nation who is rebuilding its identity around traditional images - Like the Church - who for centuries was one of the most important institutions of all of russia... Going all the back to when the Byzantine empire was first sending missionaries to the slavic pepole....
Putin have been rather lucky when he was first elected in 2000 - the country was on its rock bottom - Putin was kind of given the job by Yeltsin in a television address - at new years eve in 1999/2000 - and it surprised everyone - me - and I guess everyone else who was awake when the news came around midnight on the eve of the new millennium - a young, serious man hold a short speech where he promised to keep the constitution and to make sure the change of guards was an orderly one... And it was - the few first years of the new millenniums was rather calm and easy in Russia - the world attentions was not in its backyard - rather it was busy augmenting over the madness of mr Bush jr - and of course the Iraq war.. Mr Putin's government in Russia was kind of a dark thing, that just some specialist cared for - who might sometimes sound the alarm about Putin - but for the most part was kept under the rug... Putin was a man who you could do serious business with.... We have even the infamous stat from mr Bush - where he looked deep into Putin's soul - and found him to be a man he could trust...
Putin was president hen the oil and mineral values was just going up and up - and under his government - Russia had an boom in the middle class never seen in Russia's history - literary millions of people who had been rather destitute under Yeltsin - was suddenly starting to make progress, even if it was a progress on the altar of personal freedom and liberty - the official motto of Putin was - you could do as you want - as long as you do not messed with his power - and was challenging him.. If you just kept your mouth shut - you could in theory make billions by the next year... And the group around Putin did make billions by their dealings - and by outright stealing from the public coffins - and every attempt by the official anti-corruption office, who on paper had the official seal to keep the coffins secure from corruption was stooped by the President himself - who gave himself large powers - to keep a lot of what was in the pubic coffins away from oversight - and the result was, and is an endemic corruption - who even by russian standards is rather brutal.. The group around Putin have, for the last decade or so - been stealing from government accounts more than 8000 billion dollars - who is shipped overseas to tax heavens - totally legal as the money is laundered in large part by the government itself... 8000 BILLIONS who should have been used to build the new future of Russia... If the money had been spend on public fundings - rebuilding on the industry, who once was the hearth of Russia - they could in large part have made possible for the next 100 years of progress of Russia - as it is - it is mostly rare minerals, oil an gas who is made sure Russia's upper class, and middle class is growing, and have been growing for the last 15-20 years now... It live more millions in Moscow - than in London or New York.. But still - most russians who doesn't have the right connection to the ones in power - is left out - and is living a rather modest life if you look outside of the great city's....
I think it was me - at least I believe I had stated - that Russia believed the West looked down at them after the breakup of the Soviet Union - it was a rather brutal reality check when USSR broke up - and all the 15 union republics was just leaving the fold - and millions of russians who before 1991 had been part of a great Soviet Union - suddenly was just a minority outside of Russia even - millions had to cope with the reality about their new world - and it was a challenge for them to adjust to the reality that the former union members often had some different inspirations to who they wanted to be in the future than russians wanted - their whole idea as people was shanging.... Even in Russia itself - they had to re-invent them self not as people of a great super power- but rather as people of a nation who had lost the cold war - and who was in great problems as everything they once was part of - just disapeared... And thats where the Orthodox Church understood they had a Chance to make a comeback - as the carrier of national porousness - and as the one who could build the new, proud russia who maybe once again stepped up as the superpower it once was - or at least as a regional power - just by the size of its nation should make sure about that....
The world had a window of possibilities in the 1990s - if Russia and the west had been little more candid about the possibility of more agreements between them - maybe most of the fear Russia today have about NATO and the West - could have been solved - and today maybe Russia as a nation was not be as afraid of the West as it is.... And maybe the inferior complex who is rather rampant in Russia today - could have been eased a lot...
As I know Russia - it have a really complicated history with the west - at one side they really, really want to be part of it - and would be accepted as one of the great powers of Europe - with all the duties and rights as such, and for the most part - have had a policy against the west - outside of their own area of interest who is sensible enough for the most part - but on the other hand -they are afraid of the West - as it threatened their identity as a nation.. And again - it is the history between the Orthodox Church - and the latin church of the west who are in play here - as the Orthodox church and the latin church - in the form of the Roman Catholic church have a complicated and difficult history between them as rivals and as friends - even if in theory they worship the same Good - and they are in agreement of most things - some small details who I'm afraid I do not have enough english words to properly explain - is making it difficult for the two churches to live side by side - and for Russia to really embrace the west without fearing it....
The fall of USSR as a military treath - who the wes kind of had a collective relief of when it collapsed had a whole different perspective looking from the russian perspective - the army, navy and air force had been the porousness of USSR for decades - going back to the end of World War two and the fall of Berlin... And when Russia awake from the dream USSR had been (or in many cases a nightmare) they had nothing to be proud about - its military might was just a tombstone of ruins - submarines was not put to sail - as they more or less rot in the harbors - the same was the case with the army, who was not even able to crush a little rebellion in one of its provinces anymore - and the rest was in a state of despair - soldiers and their families was going without pays - often for mounts at the time - and even if they was paid, it was often either to little - or was eaten up by the inflation, who was devastating to savings - and made everything to expensive if you lived on a fixed income.. Both in 1994 and 1998, Russia had to deflate their currency - and the rubble was more or less worthless against evey other currency... In reality the world have not seen anything like this, since the years between 1919 and 1939 - when Germany experienced some of the same - a curency in frifall - and a pepole who was deeply hurt by what they was beliving to be someones fault...
Diclotican
okaawhatever
(9,461 posts)Diclotican
(5,095 posts)okaawhatever
No - I have sad to say never been in Russia myself - but I have allways been interested in the coutry for some reason - and have been reading a lot about the country - and know a few one who infom me now and then of state of affairs as they see it..
Dilotican
EX500rider
(10,839 posts)(Bornholm is a small Danish island in the Baltic)
Denmark's Bornholm Island apparently troubles Vladimir Putin's 21st-century Kremlin war planners as much as it vexed their Cold War Soviet-era predecessors.
More on Bornholm's specifics in a moment, but first let's cover one more example of Putin Russia's aggressive wrong doing. According to an open-source Danish security assessment, in mid-June 2014, three months after Putin's Kremlin attacked and annexed Ukraine's Crimean peninsula, Russian aircraft carrying live missiles bluffed an attack on Bornholm. Though the report doesn't provide the exact date, the bomber "probe" occurred during the three-day period the island hosted a touchy-feely "peoples festival." The festival's 90,000 participants were unaware they were seeking peaceful solutions on a bulls-eye.
The Bornholm faux-attack reprised Soviet Cold War "tests" of Danish defenses and is but one of a score of serious Russian military probes since 2008 designed to rattle Northern Europe. These Kremlin air and naval probes, backed by harsh rhetoric, have led Denmark, Norway, Sweden and Finland to reassess their military defenses. "Nordic cooperation" with an emphasis on territorial defense was the first formulation. The Nordics, however, acknowledged ties to Baltic states (and NATO members) Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Since the Crimea invasion, Denmark and Norway (NATO members) want to reinvigorate NATO military capabilities. Continued Russian aggression in Ukraine has led a few habitually neutral Swedes to voice an interest in joining NATO.
Yes, Putin-era Kremlin belligerence has sparked a sea change in Sweden. When regional powers make political demands, smaller nations always react. Often they accommodate, perhaps appease. However, when a regional power actually pulls its sabers -- and especially when the bully makes territorial threats -- good golly, sometimes the small nations don't cower. This is a global, trans-cultural phenomenon major media tend to miss. Aggressive Chinese behavior in the South China Sea has spurred Southeast Asian nations (especially Vietnam) to consider mutual defense cooperation. Here's another wrinkle. Given Iran's nuclear weapons quest and its violent trouble-making throughout Southwest Asia, Saudi Arabia and Egypt are discussing deploying a pan-Arab army.
http://www.strategypage.com/on_point/20150414213359.aspx
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)EX500rider
(I know where Bornholm is )
I know that Bornholm as a iceland off Sweden's coast have been a issue for Russia over centuries in fact - it have been occupied more than once by Russia in the past - last time it was not given back to Denmark before in the last part of 1940s - I think the last russian soldier was transported of the iceland in 1948 as the iceland was occupied by the red army from 1941 of - and the inhabitants of Bornholm have to live in a rather unfriendly atmosphere where the russian garrison was not exactly to welcome by the danish inhabitants. And it was a troublesome coo-operation between the two nations....
But it no doubt - that Russia with its mock assault on Bornholm - with aircraft who had live nuclear weapons on board was not making Denmark - or Sweden - or Finland - or Norway for that matter anything good - rather the opposite - and I suspect - outside of the fact that all four countries suddenly had to think over their military plans for a serious overhaul - it also make the necessarily of working together - to pull together the resources necessary to keep a better eye on Russia as it was - and to make sure if Russia was to play a regional power - the countries could pull the necessary resources together - to fend off - and to show the flag - and force Russia to reckon their limits in the area.... And as you point out - SWEDEN have even stated interest in joining NATO - something that was not accepted just a decade ago - as Sweden had been used to play the natural card when their nabour Russia was playing hard... For almost two centuries that have worked rather well for Sweden - just ask any over the age of 70 in both Denmark and Norway about it..
But it is seen as a more troublesome now - both Finland and Sweden have been rather busy trying to get closer to NATO - without making to much trouble with Russia - Finland have its share of "issues" with Russia -going back to 1917 - when Finland got its independence from Russia - or for that matter from the Winter-War of 1939-1940 - or the peace treaty after World War two.... And Russia believe for some reason - they could bully Finland, and for some reason also Sweden to not decide to join NATO anytime soon - even as the official policy of both Sweden and Finland always have been - they stay nautral.... But the fact is - that both of them want to be closer to NATO - and is in the process of beefing up their military - even if it will take at least a decade to get up to a degree where they could be a real challenge to Russia... Not that Finland have that issue, as they always have kept large forces at the border between Russia and Finland and have also used parts of the military way of doing think as Sweden have been doing it - building front line bases near roads - who if they got into war footing can be used as impromptu bases and airfields - both Sweden and Finland have more or less bases near some of the main roads in the north of both countries - where blast safe buildings - shelters and all the necessary equipment have been stored if war was ever to break out.... And that would make it far more difficult for Russia to defeat Sweden and Finland - if war was to break up - as fighter jets - could - and would have been sent to this bases instead of the main bases they usually are at...
I think - the map about how the military thinking have been since 1991 is changing now - I suspect both Finland and Sweden in the end would join NATO - because it is far better to stay in an alliance with others - than to continue to trust their natural state against russian aggression - and I suspect that would REALLY cross Russia's plans for their nabourhood... And I also believe - that the co-operation between Sweden, Denmark, Norway and Finland would be far more closer than it i today - mostly because we need each others more than we did before.. Even if every one of the nordic countries was made part of NATO - the cooperation between the four countries is more and more important - not just on the issue of military empowerment - but also economical, political and social... We are small countries with small populations - but together we are rather strong.... Even if still small...
Diclotican
newthinking
(3,982 posts)Head to Head - Anders Fogh Rasmussen
Unfortunately the full episode is not yet on the web.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)Same shit different day.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)Yes I agree, Russia is a threat to Europe. I’m not sure if it’s Putin who is the Russian threat, or Russia itself.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)The media is not covering what is happening in Ukraine.
This just yesterday. Neo-Nazi's freely march the day after there was a protest - They have done this several times including nighttime torch parades.
Two days ago in another city (Kherson)
2 Journalists killed last week and a string of other murders. They were on a list of 20,000 that the government posted as "enemies of the state" and surprise, not long after they were murdered.
Little Tich
(6,171 posts)It still doesn't change the fact that Russia has invaded and occupied parts of Ukraine, and is sending weapons and “volunteers” to rebel groups who perpetrate war crimes and even terrorism.
Putin is a two-faced liar who is the single cause of this conflict.
MattSh
(3,714 posts)Yep, that's what happens when the USA backs a Nazi putsch.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)But you knew that.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)At least in 1947 the Russians actually had the conventional forces to invade Europe (that is if they were completely insane and Stalin wasn't primarily interested in stable spheres of interest on behalf of defense against future invasions by Germany).
Today, however, this is laughable right-wing science fiction scare propaganda by war-profiteering motherfuckers! The main threat to Europe is the US-based deep state that seeks to install coup regimes like the one in Kiev.
Diclotican
(5,095 posts)JackRiddler
Russia, or the Soviet Union had a conventional army to invade the western part of Europe way up the 1970s - or even the 1980s if they had wanted to pick a war with NATO - but for all its blustering Russia was never really interesting in controlling every aspect of Europe - as it would be to costly for the Soviet Union - and by the way - UK and USSR carved up their areas of interest against the will of the people in 1943 and 44, when it was clear Germany was to loose the war in the end - and Churchill and Stalin, in 1944 over the coffee table at Yalta deiced who was to have control over what.... The eastern part of Poland was also made part of the Soviet Union by pushing the borders of Poland westward - to secure its own borders if Germany wanted a rematch in the future (and it have still being a issue for Russia, that Germany might wanted a re-match of the last time around - specially after West and East Germany was united in 1993... Even if Germany have been carefully not to provoke the old past...)
I really doubt Russia have some great issues with most of Europe - but the countries the do have a issue with - is dangerous enough for the ones - like the case with Ukraine - who today s more or less split in two - a eastern part who is more or less russian - and a western part who is more or less controlled by the Ukraine - and where you have that little problem with nationalistic movements who is a danger to everyone who happened not ot agree with them... Even neo-nazi organizations - who is some wat of a irony all the time ukrainians - and russians for that matter was one of the nations who was hurt worst by the original nazis back in the 1940s... I Guess some was not around when they got education about World War two in school...
And it is not been helped by outside forces- like CIA, who would love to have a far right government in countries like Kiev instead of a stable democracy - who might solve the issues they have with Russia peacefully.. It is a mess - a dangerous mess, and I do not believe we know all the facts on he ground - that be in Russia, he occupied areas - or in the rest of Ukraine itelf... And I also fear this summer will be a hot violent in Ukraine - as the forces on both sides - that be under control of Kiev or others - would crank up the violence - against what i been seen as a war who must be frighted - at all cost...
Diclotican
Diclotican
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)as right-wing and propagandistic as they come?
But if someone even mentions RT or Counterpunch, watch the cold warriors go hysterical!!!
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And Counterpunch is a fucking joke. That site never saw a repressive autocrat whose boots they didn't want to lick.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)But hey, if you think kissing up to Maduro and Putin is cool, don't let me stop you.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)I asked, reasonably, how come Russian state media are verboten, but the aggressive right-wing billionaire oligarch press on permanent class war is considered "LBN."
Actually, either one could publish good work, depending on the reporter and the subject. But only one side prompts a reflexive McCarthyite reaction on this board.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)And if there's one thing Russian leadership is lacking, it's right-wing billionaire oligarchs.
Sorry, but when the guy running the country is second in global net worth only to Bill Gates, you can't possibly portray his personal media outfit as some sort of antithesis to "billionaire oligarch media."
