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Zorro

(15,740 posts)
Sat May 2, 2015, 05:37 PM May 2015

Venezuela to nationalize food distribution

Source: AFP

Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro has promised to nationalize food distribution in the South American nation beset with record shortages of basic goods, runaway inflation and an escalating economic crisis.

During a rally Friday, on International Workers' Day, the socialist leader allowed a union activist to ask for the nationalization of food and essential-item distribution.

Citing new decree-making powers recently granted by the National Assembly, Maduro said he would carry out such a measure "in the coming days and weeks."

Maduro had pledged earlier in the week to announce economic reforms.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/venezuela-nationalize-food-distribution-191734377.html



That should fix the shortages.
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Venezuela to nationalize food distribution (Original Post) Zorro May 2015 OP
Well, what's going on right now christx30 May 2015 #1
The government and its policies are what is not working. hack89 May 2015 #2
Yeah they have those. MyNameGoesHere May 2015 #38
I know. With Maduro's poor ratings an election will bring the needed change. Nt hack89 May 2015 #41
I agree 100% christx30 May 2015 #161
This is the result of being on the US Shit List. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #7
LOLOLOLOLOL. GGJohn May 2015 #8
Now, just snark. salib May 2015 #25
The US is Venezuela's largest trading partner by far..... EX500rider May 2015 #37
Prove it. GGJohn May 2015 #39
Have that proof yet? eom. GGJohn May 2015 #63
The US has economic sanctions on Venezuela. Beauregard May 2015 #97
Those sanctions are against 7 govt officials for their role in the brutality against protesters, GGJohn May 2015 #99
That's what MOST of the media has said.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #36
Ok then, GGJohn May 2015 #40
The fact that they are an oil rich nation with no milk should be enough. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #44
That's your proof? GGJohn May 2015 #45
Did it ever occur to you that mutli-national corporations have an agenda? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #46
You still haven't provided ANY proof that the US is responsible for GGJohn May 2015 #48
I'm going by what I've heard on NPR and "Democracy Now!"... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #54
Yes I do, and every thing is speculation, not fact. GGJohn May 2015 #56
And I suppose those would be "market based"? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #60
How the hell would I know? GGJohn May 2015 #61
Here.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #66
While I admire Noam chomsky, GGJohn May 2015 #68
I did. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #75
Uh, no you didn't. GGJohn May 2015 #77
I posted a clip from "Democracy Now!" mentioning US sanctions.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #81
Those US sanctions are against certain govt officials, not the country in of itself. GGJohn May 2015 #82
You mean we can't sell a government official a Lincoln? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #84
It means that the Obama Admin. slapped sanctions against certain govt. officials for GGJohn May 2015 #86
It can import it but it hasn't been getting distributed. Hence the OP. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #88
There is actually very little hoarding going on, the govt just likes to trump up charges GGJohn May 2015 #90
Actually, if lines are like that it proves the state run stores have the supplies. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #95
There are plenty of pics showing bare shelves in those stores. GGJohn May 2015 #100
Socialism didn't cause that.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #102
I never socialism caused that, GGJohn May 2015 #105
Look at all the factories in Venezuela that have shut down hack89 May 2015 #107
Whichs begs the question spoutinghorn May 2015 #111
Err.. the US produces more oil than Venezuela, and we already buy most of their oil Recursion May 2015 #155
It's a lame effort to rally the people. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #166
Well I think the people want toothpaste, which they don't have? (nt) Recursion May 2015 #167
Politicians still don't get that the people have the web to see the truth. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #168
Maybe? I don't know. I'm much less confident about things than you are. Recursion May 2015 #169
They have a history of revolution.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #170
So do we Recursion May 2015 #171
Exactly madokie May 2015 #47
VZ nationalized their oil industry 43 years ago. GGJohn May 2015 #52
yeah, more neoliberal bloodletting will help a lot yurbud May 2015 #160
It worked SOOOOO well in Russia during the 1930's... Archae May 2015 #3
What a disaster--Maduro is a hot mess, he doesn't have a clue. MADem May 2015 #4
This may shock you but Socialism doesn't create shortages.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #65
No, but corruption and mismanagement does, GGJohn May 2015 #69
I bet if WE ever went full tilt European type Socialism there would be RW sabotage. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #71
Maybe, maybe not. GGJohn May 2015 #73
People like Limbaugh would call on all of his loyal listeners to take up arms.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #83
Frankly, I don't give a crap what Limpballs would do. eom. GGJohn May 2015 #87
There was a time when he had real power.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #89
But he never did, and that power has now evaporated. eom. GGJohn May 2015 #91
Hence, the pic. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #93
Ahh, now I get the context of the pic. eom. GGJohn May 2015 #94
That's O'Reilly and Hannity's fan base too. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #96
I wouldn't know, GGJohn May 2015 #101
You have a difficult time with humor,...don't you.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #103
Sorry, was tired last night, GGJohn May 2015 #106
Irrelevant in this case FBaggins May 2015 #76
Do you agree that they are an "extraordinary threat to national security"? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #85
Are you saying that President Obama was lying? FBaggins May 2015 #112
They are NOT a "threat". That's just a legal fiction they had to add to justify sanctions.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #126
They absolutly are FBaggins May 2015 #158
How are they a threat? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #163
Do you even read what you reply to? FBaggins May 2015 #173
LOL!!! Oh sure, next you'll claim we need to do sanctions against Greece. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #174
Laughable FBaggins May 2015 #176
It's only a "threat" if you believe Capitalism is the only way to go. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #177
This is why the distribution is being taken over.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #128
Indeed ChangoLoa May 2015 #134
Oh make no mistake about it, when it does fail, GGJohn May 2015 #142
This may shock you but there are more than just two options. FBaggins May 2015 #74
A lot of their problems are based on their reliance on oil as their main export. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #79
Close FBaggins May 2015 #110
"their current economic woes are almost entirely of their own making" Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #130
Try? Possibly... but succeed on that scale? No. FBaggins May 2015 #157
"Bad" according to who? American economists? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #165
No... not just American economists FBaggins May 2015 #172
price caps creeksneakers2 May 2015 #78
Letting stuff sit in warehouses until it rots does too. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #80
Which is a result of the price caps...selling under cost is a bad business model. EX500rider May 2015 #108
People are not going to sell goods at a loss hack89 May 2015 #114
People are not going to sell goods if it can cause loss of support for a government they don't like. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #127
But that is not the case here. hack89 May 2015 #129
That flies in the face of the fact that they do have money.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #131
They had dollar shortages before oil prices tanked hack89 May 2015 #133
I'm sure the World Bank calling in their former loans has nothing to do with that. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #135
Chavez paid off those loans 5 years early in 2007 hack89 May 2015 #139
I read that he quit them. Not that he paid them. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #151
You read wrong. Nt hack89 May 2015 #152
Jeez. GGJohn May 2015 #144
Chavez had 12 years to diversify hack89 May 2015 #136
Why are you pretending Maduro is a "socialist?" MADem May 2015 #115
Where did they go? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #132
The Grand Caymans (if by "they" you mean the MONEY) and real estate holdings in FL MADem May 2015 #154
From what I've read it's due to oil prices dropping.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #164
Thought I smelled smoke.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #5
How to make a bad situation worse. FLPanhandle May 2015 #6
No, he has a playbook. Igel May 2015 #17
Party is mother, party is father ChangoLoa May 2015 #137
Why all the right wing talking point responses. salib May 2015 #9
Maduro created this mess with his policies hack89 May 2015 #10
Well, I guess if the right wing TPs are called out, then default to snark. salib May 2015 #12
There is no embargo against Venezuela hack89 May 2015 #13
Funny, I said "near embargo" salib May 2015 #15
There are no economic sanctions against Venezuela hack89 May 2015 #28
Yes, there are salib May 2015 #31
"Nor prohibit the export of crude oil to the United States" hack89 May 2015 #33
The "oligarch" is the one who controls the oil industry n/t ChangoLoa May 2015 #138
Your whole post is ridiculous. GGJohn May 2015 #14
More of the same. salib May 2015 #18
Forgive me if I am mistaken but are you arguing with them that US policy is to blame for cstanleytech May 2015 #35
They've arrested people who were hoarding to create shortages to jack up the price. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #49
That's what they claim, GGJohn May 2015 #53
"Corrupt"? By WHO? The USSR? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #55
Corrupt by any standard of ethics. eom. GGJohn May 2015 #58
Now it's your turn to provide examples. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #59
Easy. GGJohn May 2015 #62
LOL!!! You call THAT "corruption"? Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #64
You really need to get informed on the oil industry in VN. GGJohn May 2015 #67
All of that reads like a oil company press release. Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #70
All that reads like the truth of the state of VN's oil industry, electrical grid and economy. GGJohn May 2015 #72
All of the nation's wealth was going towards the rich folks at the top.... Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #98
Since the oil industry is nationalized I assume you mean the $ is going to Maduro & his cronies? EX500rider May 2015 #109
It's obvious that poster doesn't know a thing about the country or it's economics, otherwise MADem May 2015 #120
And now VN is going to buy more weapons from Russia and China. GGJohn May 2015 #122
Trade away more of that heavy, sour oil!!!! nt MADem May 2015 #123
".....were hoarding to create shortages to jack up the price" EX500rider May 2015 #116
There's disaster capitalism. Igel May 2015 #19
Wow, that is a clever turn of phrase, right. salib May 2015 #21
"The Cold War is over. Give it up and step out of that box. " Spitfire of ATJ May 2015 #57
Nothing is wrong with those, christx30 May 2015 #16
Now it sounds like George Will salib May 2015 #20
But it IS about what the country can afford. christx30 May 2015 #22
Ok, again, a country's economy is not in any way like that of a family, salib May 2015 #29
Because thinking like that christx30 May 2015 #30
Wow, more snark. salib May 2015 #32
That's great snark. christx30 May 2015 #34
Maduro and Chavez greatest crime.. clg311 May 2015 #11
Thank you. salib May 2015 #23
More useless slogans. eom. GGJohn May 2015 #43
Venezuela like every other oil producing country sells all it can at the current market rate. EX500rider May 2015 #117
I guess the Maduro haters. clg311 May 2015 #124
... GGJohn May 2015 #125
More corporate media propaganda clg311 May 2015 #140
You have no fucking idea of why VN is my business, GGJohn May 2015 #143
So why is it your gd business then? Zorro May 2015 #145
Just responding to the ignorant attacks on Maduro. clg311 May 2015 #146
Not ignorant, GGJohn May 2015 #149
Obama and Hillary supported the Honduras "coup"? Zorro May 2015 #141
God the ignorance! clg311 May 2015 #147
Eva Golinger? Zorro May 2015 #148
Eva Golinger????? GGJohn May 2015 #150
HAHAHA, "Global Research" EX500rider May 2015 #153
There are so many articles written on the subject, and they can't attack them all, can they? Judi Lynn May 2015 #156
Don't you ever tire of bombarding forums with anti-US/anti-Obama/anti-Democratic agitprop 24/7? Zorro May 2015 #159
Obama's policy regarding Venezuela, as one example, is indestinguishable from George Bush's. Judi Lynn May 2015 #178
Thanks! NT clg311 May 2015 #175
I forgot to mention, welcome to D.U., clg311! Judi Lynn May 2015 #179
If the farms are owned by the government, and the workers paid as government employees, no problem. freshwest May 2015 #24
I smell burning Ne 3s2 3p4 seveneyes May 2015 #26
I wonder who they'll blame when this doesn't work. name not needed May 2015 #27
Whom ever is convenient. eom. GGJohn May 2015 #42
The ones who buy their oil? Nah, couldn't be. And they won't dare squeak at China. n/t freshwest May 2015 #104
I'm guessing Maduro's supporters will get food and anyone who opposes Maduro won't. NobodyHere May 2015 #50
Maduro doesn't look like he's missed any meals. nt MADem May 2015 #121
Maduro is incompetent, just like his predecessor. Little Tich May 2015 #51
this is a JOBS Program quadrature May 2015 #92
the US is the second largest agricultural exporter to Venezuela Bacchus4.0 May 2015 #113
yeah, worlds worse "embargo".....lol EX500rider May 2015 #118
I LMAO when someone claims the US has economic sanctions against VN. GGJohn May 2015 #119
It will make shortages and distribution worse. n/t Bacchus4.0 May 2015 #162

christx30

(6,241 posts)
1. Well, what's going on right now
Sat May 2, 2015, 05:54 PM
May 2015

clearly isn't working. I'm open to new ideas. Hopefully they can pull themselves out of what's going on down there. I wish them luck.

salib

(2,116 posts)
25. Now, just snark.
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:05 PM
May 2015

Let's try again.

It is so obvious that the U.S. Is the gazillion pound gorilla (maybe guerrilla as well) in Latin America. It is also obvious that ther has been a full court press to try to undermine in any way possible the revolutionary government of Venezuela.

Ridiculous to deny it.

EX500rider

(10,839 posts)
37. The US is Venezuela's largest trading partner by far.....
Sat May 2, 2015, 09:41 PM
May 2015

US 34.3%, India 15.9%, China 14%, Netherlands Antilles 8.4%, Singapore 6%, Cuba 4.9% (2013)

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
39. Prove it.
Sat May 2, 2015, 09:42 PM
May 2015

Because the US govt isn't responsible for the shortages of basic goods in VN, nor the near collapse of the electrical grid, rampant crime, out of control inflation, massive govt corruption, jailing of opposition figures, etc.

So show us the proof that this is all orchestrated by the US.

 

Beauregard

(376 posts)
97. The US has economic sanctions on Venezuela.
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:29 AM
May 2015

What do you call that? Chopped liver?

Economic sanctions are trying to undermine a nation's economy.

Many references here:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/venezuela-sanctions/

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
36. That's what MOST of the media has said....
Sat May 2, 2015, 09:41 PM
May 2015

But then, they also tried to claim global warming was an Al Gore thing.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
46. Did it ever occur to you that mutli-national corporations have an agenda?
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:25 PM
May 2015

One of them is to see to it there are no successful Latin American examples of even semi-Socialism.

They own the media and set the metrics for "success".

By their reckoning places like Columbia are successful countries. Labeling union organizers as "communists" worked well for them in the 80s.

Venezuela will be considered a failure until a guy gets in there that is willing to sell out his own people for a bargain rate bribe.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
48. You still haven't provided ANY proof that the US is responsible for
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:27 PM
May 2015

the near collapse of the VN economy.
Do you or do you not have proof?

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
56. Yes I do, and every thing is speculation, not fact.
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:47 PM
May 2015

Blaming the US for the massive corruption and ineptness seems to be the Maduro govt's answer for the problems instead of fixing the underlying reasons.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
61. How the hell would I know?
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:03 PM
May 2015

But if that's what the people of VN ultimately decide, then good luck to them, because right now, the system in place sure ain't working.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
68. While I admire Noam chomsky,
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:27 PM
May 2015

he too has zero proof that the US is undermining the VN economy, it's all conjecture, but if he has solid proof, or if you do, then by all means, please post it here for all to see.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
77. Uh, no you didn't.
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:40 PM
May 2015

All you posted was conjecture, innuendos, and speculation, which, last time I looked, isn't evidence.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
81. I posted a clip from "Democracy Now!" mentioning US sanctions....
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:53 PM
May 2015

In another there is the comment that we are "steering them in the "right" direction". (IOW: "right-wing" direction)

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
86. It means that the Obama Admin. slapped sanctions against certain govt. officials for
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:04 AM
May 2015

corruption and a host of other reasons, not the country, VN can still import all the food and goods they need from us, problem is that the Maduro govt's monetary policies make it impossible to be able to pay for them, that is not the fault of the US.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
90. There is actually very little hoarding going on, the govt just likes to trump up charges
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:16 AM
May 2015

to cover up their incompetence and corruption with the economy, even the state run stores are bare, lines run around the block, it reminds me of the old Soviet Union and their price controls and centralized planning of their economy.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
100. There are plenty of pics showing bare shelves in those stores.
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:36 AM
May 2015

It reminds me of the old Soviet state run stores, when word of items would spread, lines would form no matter what the item was.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
107. Look at all the factories in Venezuela that have shut down
Sun May 3, 2015, 10:18 AM
May 2015

because they cannot get the dollars to import parts and materials. People are dying because there are no dollars to buy and import medicines. It is not a distribution problem.

 

spoutinghorn

(8 posts)
111. Whichs begs the question
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:18 PM
May 2015

If the outcome of a specific economic policy is so easily susceptible to "sabotage" how strong is it really in the first place?

If a few capitalists can so easily wreck this system, maybe it's the system itself?

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
155. Err.. the US produces more oil than Venezuela, and we already buy most of their oil
Mon May 4, 2015, 01:01 AM
May 2015

Seems like an odd paranoia to have...

Recursion

(56,582 posts)
169. Maybe? I don't know. I'm much less confident about things than you are.
Mon May 4, 2015, 01:13 PM
May 2015

I really don't know how people will react to this.

madokie

(51,076 posts)
47. Exactly
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:27 PM
May 2015

the oily boys who chavez ran our of his country and took over their operations because they were fucking the people want their oil wells and rigs back. As long as this is the case until they do get their shit back, what really isn't theirs to begin with, it belongs to the people not an oil company, but anyway until they get a yes man in office they are in for more of the same shit as whats being dealt to them for a while now.
Scratch the surface of their problems and a rich ass hole will emerge

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
52. VZ nationalized their oil industry 43 years ago.
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:30 PM
May 2015

Long before Chavez was elected President.
Their oil industry is now in a shambles due to Chavez running out the companies that knew what they were doing and then keeping the equipment, basically stealing it.

yurbud

(39,405 posts)
160. yeah, more neoliberal bloodletting will help a lot
Mon May 4, 2015, 11:22 AM
May 2015

Help the 1% that is.

When any country leaves the bankers' plantation, they let loose the economic dogs until they tree them or tear them to pieces. If that doesn't work, they send the jackels.

If that doesn't work, they find some right wing thug in their military to stage a coup. Attempts to remove Chavez showed their military is tired of being the bad guy, so that option is likely off the table.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
4. What a disaster--Maduro is a hot mess, he doesn't have a clue.
Sat May 2, 2015, 06:20 PM
May 2015

And he's got "extraordinary powers" too--dictatorial in scope.

This ain't gonna work, EITHER. Nationalizing everything just makes the people who do the work up and leave. It's why the country is in the toilet.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
65. This may shock you but Socialism doesn't create shortages....
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:18 PM
May 2015

And Capitalism doesn't create abundance.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
89. There was a time when he had real power....
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:16 AM
May 2015

He could have caused murder sprees on a national level with a "go" order.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
106. Sorry, was tired last night,
Sun May 3, 2015, 09:30 AM
May 2015

running a farm is hard, tiring work and sometimes my humor meter is on the fritz.
Now that pic is funny.

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
76. Irrelevant in this case
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:40 PM
May 2015

Venezuela is not at all like a European socialist model... unless you look much farther east and a few decades back

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
112. Are you saying that President Obama was lying?
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:20 PM
May 2015

Of course they're a threat. They're a threat to spiral out of control and destabilize the entire region. They're a huge threat to their own citizens...


... and they're running out of people to blame for their own mistakes.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
126. They are NOT a "threat". That's just a legal fiction they had to add to justify sanctions....
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:20 PM
May 2015

As an added bonus it gave Maduro an excuse to run around telling everyone the United States is planning to invade.

Now THAT'S stupid.

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
158. They absolutly are
Mon May 4, 2015, 06:10 AM
May 2015

Did you think that they had to have nuclear weapons to be considered a threat?

As an added bonus it gave Maduro an excuse to run around telling everyone the United States is planning to invade.

One of his citizens waking up on the wrong side of the bed is enough of an excuse for him to do that.

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
173. Do you even read what you reply to?
Mon May 4, 2015, 01:47 PM
May 2015

I already told you. The country is destabilizing the region. Their bond ratings imply an impending default. Human rights abuses abound. They're a major oil supplier with huge reserves... if they fall further into chaos they cold harm the global economy.

How is that not a threat?

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
176. Laughable
Mon May 4, 2015, 02:43 PM
May 2015

Venzuela is a much larger threat to the US than Greece could ever be. Among other things, our trade with them is tiny by comparison.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
128. This is why the distribution is being taken over....
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:26 PM
May 2015

You should be happy. There wont be any more excuses.

ChangoLoa

(2,010 posts)
134. Indeed
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:46 PM
May 2015

No more excuses now, as they took over the last remaining parcels of the distribution chain. The govt is the only player left in that game now.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
142. Oh make no mistake about it, when it does fail,
Sun May 3, 2015, 07:46 PM
May 2015

Maduro will find a scapegoat for his failure, it just remains to be seen who it'll be.

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
74. This may shock you but there are more than just two options.
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:37 PM
May 2015

Socialism doesn't create shortages... but price controls do.

You need to stop pretending that anything this side of communism is "far right." Even were we to agree that a command economy can work... the people running it would be to be far more capable than what we've seen.

Certainly there are U.S.corporate and governmental interests that want to see regime change in Venezuela... but their current economic woes are almost entirely of their own making... and entirely predictable.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
79. A lot of their problems are based on their reliance on oil as their main export.
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:48 PM
May 2015

They need to offer more.

Ever see the movie "Bananas" where it's listed what San Marcos has to offer? (Besides bananas)

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
110. Close
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:09 PM
May 2015

It's the government's reliance on oil sales to fund the government... along with incredibly bad fiscal and monetary policy.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
130. "their current economic woes are almost entirely of their own making"
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:29 PM
May 2015

You really can't picture the formerly rich crowd there that lost an election would try to sabotage the economy to make the government look bad?

FBaggins

(26,728 posts)
157. Try? Possibly... but succeed on that scale? No.
Mon May 4, 2015, 06:08 AM
May 2015

The "sabotage" is in plain sight. Bad economic policies.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
127. People are not going to sell goods if it can cause loss of support for a government they don't like.
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:22 PM
May 2015

hack89

(39,171 posts)
129. But that is not the case here.
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:27 PM
May 2015

The impact of price controls in a high inflation economy is basic economics.

Here is the problem for Maduro: when every warehouse is emptied out in a month or two, what then? Who is going to refill them? He has no dollars to import what he needs.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
131. That flies in the face of the fact that they do have money....
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:41 PM
May 2015

Just not as MUCH since oil prices fell.

This was addressed by Chomski in the clip I posted. The nation needs to diversify their exports as a single product like oil makes one a slave to the market fluctuations. This was a place that was practically OWNED by Big Oil and they got all the focus.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
133. They had dollar shortages before oil prices tanked
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:45 PM
May 2015

This is not a new problem. There have been shortages of basic goods for nearly three years.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
139. Chavez paid off those loans 5 years early in 2007
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:55 PM
May 2015

Thereby saving VZ a shit ton of money. He then severed all ties with the IMF and World Bank. That was 8 years ago

I have no fucking idea what you are talking about.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
144. Jeez.
Sun May 3, 2015, 07:52 PM
May 2015

Chavez paid the World Bank off in 2007, and VN hasn't taken a loan out with the World Bank or the IMF since, so I have no idea what loans you're talking about.
You really need to know what you're talking about before posting.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
136. Chavez had 12 years to diversify
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:48 PM
May 2015

All he did was turn the country from a net exporter to a net importer. They use to be self sufficient in food- now they have to import food to feed the population.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
115. Why are you pretending Maduro is a "socialist?"
Sun May 3, 2015, 01:57 PM
May 2015

Half of Venezuela's wealth has been spirited out of the country by his and his predecessor's cronies.

There's nothing "socialist" about what is happening in Venezuela.

Good grief.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
154. The Grand Caymans (if by "they" you mean the MONEY) and real estate holdings in FL
Mon May 4, 2015, 12:22 AM
May 2015

and elsewhere.

It's the dough that has taken wing, the wealth of the nation.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
164. From what I've read it's due to oil prices dropping....
Mon May 4, 2015, 12:58 PM
May 2015

They got rich, paid off their debt and now are trying to live off their current income.

Do you have a link that shows the leaders looted the treasury?

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
5. Thought I smelled smoke....
Sat May 2, 2015, 06:39 PM
May 2015

The asshole across the street just had his hair catch on fire.

...........again.

FLPanhandle

(7,107 posts)
6. How to make a bad situation worse.
Sat May 2, 2015, 06:43 PM
May 2015

He won't be able to complain about private industry after this. When this solution fails spectacularly, then he can always use the ol' standby and blame the US.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
17. No, he has a playbook.
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:36 PM
May 2015

It's been done and failed so many different times--always enriching just the "right people" along the way while providing political points and supportive outrage--that the responses to failure, whole or partial, are scripted. He might even have already pre-recorded them so as to not have to interrupt meetings or whatever his hobby is.

Growing pains, with requests for patience as they catch those who are denying those in line what is already rightfully theirs.

Internal saboteurs. Dissidents. Provocations. Impediments thrown up by the bourgeoisie. With calls to root out the internal class enemies.

External enemies. With calls to root out the internal class enemies who are pawns of the external enemies, and the classy external enemies who are the prawns of internal dissident saboteurs.

Natural disasters. Shortages caused by internal puppet dissidents, provocations, and sabotage. Shortages and natural disasters caused by external enemies. Internal class provocations caused by external class sabotage. Natural shortages caused by growing provocateurs undergoing internal bourgeoisie external pains. Whatever.

String the words together randomly and even mangled and they usually have as much validity, once you've sat through enough philosophy of ___________ism classes to make sure that whatever's said is already pre-known and spinning at the proper angular velocity. What matters is that you hate the person/group/ideas/beliefs/entities currently en vogue for hatred so that your loyalty isn't doubted if you're in the "correct" party. Party is mother, party is father.

ChangoLoa

(2,010 posts)
137. Party is mother, party is father
Sun May 3, 2015, 05:50 PM
May 2015

And Venezuela is soon going to become an orphan.
Unless there's another oil boom before the end of the year... which won't happen.

salib

(2,116 posts)
9. Why all the right wing talking point responses.
Sat May 2, 2015, 06:50 PM
May 2015

Next, we will hear about "personal responsibility" or some othe such phrase co-opted into a canard.

Venezuela is in a dire situation, one made most terrible by our own countries actions.

Is it really "bad policy" to radically raise the education rate, truly equalize the economic differences, increase economic opportunities for the forgotten vast majority who languished in miserable living conditions when thoe wonderful "free market" was working its magic.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
10. Maduro created this mess with his policies
Sat May 2, 2015, 06:55 PM
May 2015

What is laughable is the notion of the government taking over food distribution. There is nothing to distribute because there are no dollars to import food to distribute.

salib

(2,116 posts)
12. Well, I guess if the right wing TPs are called out, then default to snark.
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:08 PM
May 2015

This is disaster capitalism and Maduro is boxed in and forced to choose among downright lousy options and realities.

Nationalization of distribution is likely a better choice than for the large majority in Venezuela given the crash in oil prices and the near embargo conducted by the U.S. and most multinationals. It is not a good one and not anything that would have been expected before the crash in oil prices.

So, what are these wonderful free market proposals that you or any of the others posting here have to offer instead? What would you do to keep the revolution alive and improve the situation of the 99% in Venezuela?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
13. There is no embargo against Venezuela
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:19 PM
May 2015

We are their largest trading partner. We buy more of their oil than any other country.

Their problem is moronic currency laws that have made dollars impossible to get. Which means no money to import goods.

salib

(2,116 posts)
15. Funny, I said "near embargo"
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:31 PM
May 2015

Because, due to punitive sanctions upon sanctions, we only trade with them what our oligarchs have invested in the most dearly (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/news/venezuela-sanctions/)

Now, it is "moronic currency laws" that are the problem, huh?

Again, what would you do that would maintain the revolution and benefit (truly) the 99% in Venezuela? They are bleeding and need our help, not our snark, our destabilization, our support for attempted coups, nor do they need our punitive sanctions simply because they wish to maintain their revolutionary, and liberal direction and action.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
28. There are no economic sanctions against Venezuela
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:11 PM
May 2015

there are individual sanction against a handful of government officials complicit in political violence. You should actually read your links.

salib

(2,116 posts)
31. Yes, there are
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:30 PM
May 2015

E.g, http://caracas.usembassy.gov/mobile//business-faq.html#6.

The previous link was not intended to be a complete report on sanctions, just an example of punitive sanctions.

From the one in this post you may see that because Venezuela is considered the "enemy", the excuse of "weapons" is used to restrict what Venezuela can do through its nationalized oil company. The most critical portion of their economy. With appropriate loopholes of course so those who have invested the big bucks can still make a killing.

Still, this is off the point. Venezuela is as much our mess as it is the oligarch's mess.

The people and government of Venezuela are trying to keep the revolution alive.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
33. "Nor prohibit the export of crude oil to the United States"
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:38 PM
May 2015

That list is trivial and has absolutely no impact on the importing of food and other consumer goods. Nor does it impact their ability to sell oil.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
14. Your whole post is ridiculous.
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:28 PM
May 2015

Maduro isn't forced to do anything, he's the one fucking up the country.

salib

(2,116 posts)
18. More of the same.
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:36 PM
May 2015

It is not ridiculous. What is rediculous is ignoring the elephant in the room that is the U.S. Policy Againts any attempt at true revolution on the left, and always brutally in favor (and likely directed by) the monied interests.

To blithely ignore that is the ridiculous part.

Be real.

cstanleytech

(26,283 posts)
35. Forgive me if I am mistaken but are you arguing with them that US policy is to blame for
Sat May 2, 2015, 09:35 PM
May 2015

a food shortage and not the decisions of the people who are actually running the country?

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
53. That's what they claim,
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:36 PM
May 2015

but they've also arrested political opposition figures on trumped up charges, so I don't for a second believe anything coming from the corrupt Maduro govt.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
62. Easy.
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:06 PM
May 2015

The near failure of their oil industry due to corruption and mismanagement, the highest inflation rate of all LA countries, the highest violent crime rate of all LA countries, the chronic shortages of basic goods, the arrest and jailing of opposition figures on trumped up charges.
Need I go on.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
64. LOL!!! You call THAT "corruption"?
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:15 PM
May 2015

BTW: All Venezuela did as far as their oil was expect to get PAID for it.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
67. You really need to get informed on the oil industry in VN.
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:25 PM
May 2015

We are the biggest importer of VN oil, they get paid market price for their oil, which is crappy heavy crude, hard to refine, they send it to us to refine because their infrastructure is shit due to neglect and corruption, misappropriation of funds to modernize the wells and refineries.
The story is the same with the electrical grid, it's near collapse due to the same corruption and misappropriation of funds for modernization.

And what about the Maduro's policy of arresting opposition figures with trumped up charges?
Notice you didn't address that.
Or how about the National Police shooting and killing a number of opposition protesters?
Think that's the fault of the US also?

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
72. All that reads like the truth of the state of VN's oil industry, electrical grid and economy.
Sat May 2, 2015, 11:32 PM
May 2015

Most noted economists agree that the state of affairs in VN is due to corruption and mismanagement, not the fault of the US.

 

Spitfire of ATJ

(32,723 posts)
98. All of the nation's wealth was going towards the rich folks at the top....
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:31 AM
May 2015

Like here. Look at OUR electrical grid some time.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
120. It's obvious that poster doesn't know a thing about the country or it's economics, otherwise
Sun May 3, 2015, 02:16 PM
May 2015

he wouldn't have fallen into that deep hole. The VZ oil industry has been nationalized for almost FORTY years--it's impossible to blame "outside forces" for it.

The problem with the VZ oil industry nowadays is that the people running it QUIT, and now they have no one competent to manage the oil fields. The rank and file workers are not called to account, and no one is buying replacement parts for the oil rigs because, since VZ doesn't pay their bills, no one will extend them credit anymore (part of the reason you can't fly to Caracas except with great difficulty).

You can't hire people and not PAY them!!! Well, you can...but don't expect 'em to stick around!

Maduro has given half of VZ's oil to CHINA....THAT's another problem with their "oil industry." They don't OWN it anymore! So much for "socialization!"

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
122. And now VN is going to buy more weapons from Russia and China.
Sun May 3, 2015, 02:28 PM
May 2015

So, how are they going to pay for those weapons? Why, by exporting more oil to China, instead of buying more food to feed the citizens, or modernizing the failing electrical grid, or modernizing the oil infrastructure.

EX500rider

(10,839 posts)
116. ".....were hoarding to create shortages to jack up the price"
Sun May 3, 2015, 01:59 PM
May 2015

Since Venezuela has price controls on most commodities there is no "jacking up the price" .

There is "I don't want to sell products under cost so I'll warehouse it till something changes or I can smuggle it across the border to sell".

Price controls with 60%+ inflation is a guarantee shortage producer.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
19. There's disaster capitalism.
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:41 PM
May 2015

Then there's disaster socialism, often terms socialist disaster.

Post 1991 a lot of Russian economists were busy showing that their disasters had been of their own making. It was only really in 2000 that Russian economists decided that it was more important to show that their disaster was caused by external countries--precisely the time when Stalin's purges became a subject for increasing silence and the USSR was resurrected.

Then the papers on Khrushchev's corn policies, GULag population versus GDP, inefficiencies of production, silly policies against bourgeois sciences, suddenly fell into disrepute.

A lot of Americans tried to ignore the research in the '90s. What was said in the 2000s resonated with what they had always known, in their heart of hearts, to be true.

salib

(2,116 posts)
21. Wow, that is a clever turn of phrase, right.
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:49 PM
May 2015

So, it must have resonance.

So, now Venezuela is just like Soviet Russia, and somehow in their introspection they realize they were just so wrong all along. So the point?

Venezuela is NOT the enemy. The Cold War is over. Give it up and step out of that box.

Now, if we were actively supporting what has been a highly democratic and egalitarian revolution in Venezuela instead of madly trying to stamp it out, and even more desperately try to deny and cover up the attempt.

All because they are "the enemy". And because savy disaster capitalists have convinced those who wield power in this country, including the current president, that it is critical to the geopolitical game, they make poor decisions that are simply taken advantage of by those same capitalists.

Vultures of another stripe.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
16. Nothing is wrong with those,
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:34 PM
May 2015

if your country has the money to back it up.
"I want to give everybody 35 cent gas!" Ok, well, can you afford that?

And if you want to equalize the economic differences, what does that mean? Free money for everyone? Where does the money come from? Who gets it?
It doesn't seem like any of his goals, while laudable, were not well thought out. I could tell my kids that I'll buy them 12 Xbox games a week. But I sure as hell can't afford that.

salib

(2,116 posts)
20. Now it sounds like George Will
Sat May 2, 2015, 07:41 PM
May 2015

What a country can "afford" (better steed as what they can accomplish) has nothing to do with a family and what it can afford. Again, that is a right wing meme.

Please, step out of these.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
22. But it IS about what the country can afford.
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:00 PM
May 2015

If the country doesn't have the money to do something, and no one will give them loans, they have to live within their means. We're seeing what happens when a country isn't living within its means. Things cost money. Whether it's a bomber, or a paperclip, discounted gas. If the country can't afford it, it can't provide it.

salib

(2,116 posts)
29. Ok, again, a country's economy is not in any way like that of a family,
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:16 PM
May 2015

Or a company, or any entity like that.

See http://fair.org/blog/2012/02/14/abc-and-the-family-budget-fallacy/.

There is a wealth (not intensional) of evidence and good economic discussion on this point.

Please google it with something like "why a country's economy is not like a family".

As an example here, the right wing TP is that we cannot "afford" social security as it is defined. If we buy into that concept of "afford" then we have lost the argument, and the savvy disaster capitalists make their killing by convincing people (in a panic of how to "save" it) to allow them to privatize it.

Clever toads.

salib

(2,116 posts)
32. Wow, more snark.
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:34 PM
May 2015

Yeah, because thinking that a country is like a family has done so much for all the countries being pirated, dragged through the shit, and otherwise tortured with austerity.

How's that workin out for them.

How's that for snark?

christx30

(6,241 posts)
34. That's great snark.
Sat May 2, 2015, 09:03 PM
May 2015

But it doesn't address the situation at hand. Venezuela needs to get more money comeing in. That's the #1 priority here. If they can't, nothing else is going to matter. But anyone with any real money has already bolted for the border. That leaves everyone else to deal with the country as is.

 

clg311

(119 posts)
11. Maduro and Chavez greatest crime..
Sat May 2, 2015, 06:59 PM
May 2015

Is not genuflecting to Neo-liberal thugs who want to exploit Venezuela for its' oil.

EX500rider

(10,839 posts)
117. Venezuela like every other oil producing country sells all it can at the current market rate.
Sun May 3, 2015, 02:07 PM
May 2015

Unfortunately for them when the price goes under a $70-$80 a barrel they run a deficit.

And it's not because they nationalized their oil back in 1976.

"According to consulting firm PFC Energy, only 7% of the world's estimated oil and gas reserves are in countries that allow private international companies free rein."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationalization_of_oil_supplies

 

clg311

(119 posts)
124. I guess the Maduro haters.
Sun May 3, 2015, 03:27 PM
May 2015

Would prefer US client states like the Neo-liberal thugs in Honduras,who came into power by a coup supported by Obama and Hillary, who oppress peasants and boast a 64.5% poverty rate. (compared to the reduction of poverty in Venezuela under Chavez and Maduro) Or Columbia, who receive massive aid by the US to prosecute a bloody drug war and murder labor activists with impunity. Or Mexico with their drug cartels murdering thousands. I doubt the Maduro haters even know anything about these countries beyond whatever drivel the corporate media tell them to think.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
125. ...
Sun May 3, 2015, 04:12 PM
May 2015
I doubt the Maduro haters even know anything about these countries beyond whatever drivel the corporate media tell them to think.


Well then, you would be woefully wrong.
Maduro is a fucking clown who's in over his head,
the economy is in the shitter, inflation is the highest in LA at over 60%,
violent crime is rampant,
chronic shortages of basic goods due to govt corruption and insane monetary policies,
electrical grid on the verge of collapse,
oil infrastructure is near collapse,
govt agents killing opposition protesters,
govt arresting opposition figures on trumped up charges.


Yeah, we don't know much about VN.
Get a clue, VN is a mess due to govt corruption and mismanagement, and don't even try to blame the US, Maduro is doing a fine job of fucking up the country all by himself.
 

clg311

(119 posts)
140. More corporate media propaganda
Sun May 3, 2015, 07:19 PM
May 2015

American should be more concerned about police violence, the racist drug war, bloodthirsty foreign policy, destruction of the inner cities. high incarceration etc. in their own country than interfering in the affairs of other countries. In other words what the Venezuelan people do is none of your gd business.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
143. You have no fucking idea of why VN is my business,
Sun May 3, 2015, 07:48 PM
May 2015

I'll thank you to not tell me it's none of my GD business.

Zorro

(15,740 posts)
145. So why is it your gd business then?
Sun May 3, 2015, 07:53 PM
May 2015

Maybe you should take your own advice and STFU on this topic.

 

clg311

(119 posts)
146. Just responding to the ignorant attacks on Maduro.
Sun May 3, 2015, 08:06 PM
May 2015

That you would typically see on the yahoo message board.

Zorro

(15,740 posts)
141. Obama and Hillary supported the Honduras "coup"?
Sun May 3, 2015, 07:45 PM
May 2015

What evidence do you have to back up that bold assertion?

Zorro

(15,740 posts)
148. Eva Golinger?
Sun May 3, 2015, 08:26 PM
May 2015

God the ignorance indeed!

You really don't have to continue demonstrating your cluelessness, you know.

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
150. Eva Golinger?????
Sun May 3, 2015, 08:40 PM
May 2015

God, the ignorance.
She's a paid shill for the Ven. govt., nothing more.
How about a legitimate source for your allegation?

EX500rider

(10,839 posts)
153. HAHAHA, "Global Research"
Sun May 3, 2015, 10:21 PM
May 2015
Despite presenting itself as a source of scholarly analysis, Global Research mostly consists of polemicists, many of whom accept (and use) conspiracy theories, pseudoscience and propaganda. The prevalent conspiracist strand relates to global power-elites (primarily governments and corporations) and their New World Order. Specific featured conspiracy theories include those addressing 9/11, vaccines, genetic modification, Zionism, HAARP, global warming, Bosnian genocide denialism, chemtrails, and David Kelly.


http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch.ca

Judi Lynn

(160,516 posts)
156. There are so many articles written on the subject, and they can't attack them all, can they?
Mon May 4, 2015, 04:20 AM
May 2015

We've posted them from right after the coup, consistently, every year. There's no doubt whatsoever you are right, of course.

(You've been shown what happens when too many right-wingers have far, far too much time on their Cheetos-stained pudgy hands!)

Here are a few useful "takes":


Those Kids Crossing the Border from Mexico Wouldn’t Be There if Obama Hadn’t Supported a Coup the Media Doesn’t Talk About
By Ted Rall, , www.rall.com
July 13th, 2014

If you’re reading this, you probably follow the news. So you’ve probably heard of the latest iteration of the “crisis at the border”: tens of thousands of children, many of them unaccompanied by an adult, crossing the desert from Mexico into the United States, where they surrender to the Border Patrol in hope of being allowed to remain here permanently. Immigration and Customs Enforcement’s detention and hearing system has been overwhelmed by the surge of children and, in some cases, their parents. The Obama Administration has asked Congress to approve new funding to speed up processing and deportations of these illegal immigrants.

Even if you’ve followed this story closely, you probably haven’t heard the depressing backstory — the reason so many Central Americans are sending their children on adangerous thousand-mile journey up the spine of Mexico, where they ride atop freight trains, endure shakedowns by corrupt police and face rapists, bandits and other predators. (For a sense of what it’s like, check out the excellent 2009 film “Sin Nombre.”)

NPR and other mainstream news outlets are parroting the White House, which blames unscrupulous “coyotes” (human smugglers) for “lying to parents, telling them that if they put their kids in the hands of traffickers and get to the United States that they will be able to stay.” True: the coyotes are saying that in order to gin up business. Also true: U.S. law has changed, and many of these kids have a strong legal case for asylum. Unfortunately, U.S. officials are ignoring the law. The sad truth is that this “crisis at the border” is yet another example of “blowback.”

Blowback is an unintended negative consequence of U.S. political, military and/or economic intervention overseas — when something we did in the past comes back to bite us in the ass. 9/11 is the classic example; arming and funding radical Islamists in the Middle East and South Asia who were less grateful for our help than angry at the U.S.’ simultaneous backing for oppressive governments (The House of Saud, Saddam, Assad, etc.) in the region.

More:
https://www.popularresistance.org/obama-supported-honduras-coup-root-cause-of-border-crisis/

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
Hillary Clinton’s Honduran Disgrace
By Matthew Rothschild on March 05, 2010
Matthew Rothschild

Hillary Clinton continues with her hawkish ways, making Obama’s foreign policy less distinguishable from Bush’s every day. She just met with Honduran President Pepe Lobo, she’s notified Congress that the Obama administration is restoring aid to Honduras, and she’s urging Latin American nations to recognize the Lobo government in Tegucigalpa. The democratic opposition in Honduras boycotted lobo’s election, since he’s allied with the forces that overthrew Manuel Zelaya last June. But for the longest time, Hillary Clinton stubbornly refused to call the June takeover a “coup,” even though her boss, the president of the United States, immediately denounced it as such. She systematically dragged her feet when it came to pressuring the coup leaders to hand power back over to Zelaya. And when Lobo won the election, Hillary rushed to heap praise on him. Now she wants full relations with Honduras restored all around. “Other countries of the region say that they want to wait a while,” she said on her Latin American trip. “I don’t know what they’re waiting for.”

- See more at: http://www.progressive.org/wx030510.html#sthash.Eu6v140g.dpuf

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
The high-powered hidden support for Honduras' coup

The country's rightful president was ousted by a military leadership that takes many of its cues from Washington insiders.

July 23, 2009|Mark Weisbrot | Mark Weisbrot is co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research in Washington. (www.cepr.net).

Powerful special interests have flexed their muscles and confronted President Obama on the most important legislative priorities of his domestic agenda. But this kind of politics-by-influence-peddling doesn't stop at the water's edge. And in foreign policy, the consequences can be more immediate, violent and deadly.

Meet Lanny Davis, Washington lawyer and lobbyist, former legal counsel to President Clinton and avid campaigner for Hillary Rodham Clinton's presidential bid. He has been hired by a coalition of Latin American business interests to represent the dictatorship that ousted elected President Manuel Zelaya of Honduras in a military coup and removed him to Costa Rica on June 28.

Davis is working with Bennett Ratcliff, another lobbyist with a close relationship to Hillary Clinton who is a former senior executive for one of the most influential political and public relations firms in Washington. In the current mediation effort hosted by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias, the coup-installed government did not make a move without first consulting Ratcliff, an unnamed source told the New York Times.

Davis and Ratcliff have done an amazing public relations job so far. Americans, relying on media reports, are likely to believe that Zelaya was ousted because he tried to use a referendum to extend his term of office. This is false.

More:
http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jul/23/opinion/oe-weisbrot23

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
The Honduras Coup: Is Obama Innocent?
by Michael Parenti

Published on Wednesday, July 08, 2009
by CommonDreams.org

Is President Obama innocent of the events occurring in Honduras, specifically the coup launched by the Honduran military resulting in the abduction and forced deportation of democratically elected President Manuel Zelaya? Obama has denounced the coup and demanded that the rules of democracy be honored. Still, several troubling questions remain.

First, almost all the senior Honduran military officers active in the coup are graduates of the Pentagon's School of the Americas (known to many of us as "School of the Assassins&quot . The Honduran military is trained, advised, equipped, indoctrinated, and financed by the United States national security state. The generals would never have dared to move without tacit consent from the White House or the Pentagon and CIA.

Second, if Obama was not directly involved, then he should be faulted for having no firm command over those US operatives who were. The US military must have known about the plot and US military intelligence must have known and must have reported it back to Washington. Why did Obama’s people who had communicated with the coup leaders fail to blow the whistle on them? Why did they not expose and denounce the plot, thereby possibly foiling the entire venture? Instead the US kept quiet about it, a silence that in effect, even if not in intent, served as an act of complicity.

Third, immediately after the coup, Obama stated that he was against using violence to effect change and that it was up to the various parties in Honduras to resolve their differences. His remarks were a rather tepid and muted response to a gangster putsch.

Fourth, Obama never expected there would be an enormous uproar over the Honduras coup. He hastily joined the outcry against the perpetrators only when it became evident that opposition to the putschists was nearly universal throughout Latin America and elsewhere in the world.

Fifth, Obama still has had nothing to say about the many other acts of repression attendant with the coup perpetrated by Honduran military and police: kidnappings, beatings, disappearances, attacks on demonstrators, shutting down the internet and suppressing the few small critical media outlets that exist in Honduras.

More:
http://www.commondreams.org/views/2009/07/08/honduras-coup-obama-innocent

[center]~ ~ ~[/center]
The US Role in the Honduran Coup of 2009
September 9, 2014

The Civil Democratic Union of Honduras, a network of Honduran NGOs funded by the US Agency for International Development, voiced public support for the military coup that overthrew the democratically elected government of President Manuel Zelaya on June 28, 2009. The group described the military ouster of a democratically elected President as “democratic regime change,” and welcomed the removal of the President as essential for the protection of the Honduran constitution. Meanwhile, the US State Department under President Barack Obama refused to legally classify the regime change as a coup d’etat.[ii] Instead, State Department officials, including Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, argued that both the Honduran military and the ousted government of President Manuel Zelaya shared blame for the events leading to the removal of the Honduran head of state.[iii] The US preference was for a mediated solution to the political crisis, led by President Oscar Arias of Costa Rica, who urged both parties in the conflict to accept a power-sharing arrangement in the months leading to the next presidential elections in Honduras. While the Organization of American States condemned the military coup as a blatant violation of international law, and insisted on the return of President Zelaya to power without conditions, the US government negotiated with the coup leaders and Zelaya over the terms of Zelaya’s return to power. The Obama Administration also supported the disbursement of $70 million of assistance to the Honduran government in the aftermath of the military coup, over twice the amount of money that the US had suspended.[iv] These events pose questions about whose interests are being protected by the Honduran military, the US government, and the largest US-funded NGO network in Honduras?

The US role in the aftermath of the Honduran coup illustrates the politics of deep intervention that has guided US foreign policy strategy from the early 1980s to the present. While publicly criticizing the coup as a violation of democratic norms, US foreign policy makers have worked closely with Honduran political and economic elites through an NGO network that is closely linked to transnational business interests. In fact, the Civil Democratic Union is an umbrella group of NGOs that includes Honduran business associations long funded by the US Agency for International Development (USAID), including the Honduran Council of Private Enterprise and the National Federation of Commerce and Industry. The same NGO groups that applauded the coup against Manuel Zelaya include representatives of telecommunications firms and export assembly companies that are members of the Civil Democratic Union of Honduras.[v] The Honduran opposition to Zelaya is based on his support for policies that threatened the political agenda of significant sectors of Honduran and transnational capitalists represented by this NGO network, which opposed Zelaya’s decisions to raise the minimum wage, to block the sale of the state-owned telecommunications sector to private transnational firms, and to take control of foreign-owned petroleum storage facilities in an effort to check profiteering and to lower the price of gasoline.[vi] As a justification for the coup, Honduran coup leaders were joined by the US-funded coalition of NGOs, the Honduran Supreme Court and the Honduran Congress, in charging Zelaya with violating the Honduran constitution by going forward with plans to have a referendum placed on the November ballot. The referendum in question would have asked Honduran citizens whether or not they supported the convening of a National Constitutional Assembly to change the current Honduran constitution. Opponents of the referendum characterized it as an unconstitutional power-grab that would have extended the presidency of Manuel Zelaya beyond the four-year term limit specified in the Honduran constitution. Defenders of Zelaya contend that the referendum was non-binding and only sought to authorize a constitutional convention after Zelaya left the office of the Presidency.

President Zelaya was moving toward political alliances with the governments of Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, Dominica and Cuba, epitomized by his decision to join the Bolivarian Alternative of the Americas (ALBA), a regional trade group formed in 2004 that has sought to counteract the corporate friendly regional trade agreements supported by the United States.[vii] Prior to the coup, Zelaya was in the process of organizing the removal of the US military presence from the Soto Cano airbase, using a fund from the ALBA countries to convert the Pentagon base into a commercial airport. These moves threatened the US-Honduran strategic relationship, and the stability of the Honduran constitution that had been drafted by the Honduran military under US direction in 1982. The US role in crafting the Honduran constitution was central to US geostrategic objectives in Central America during the 1980s, including the use of Honduran territory by the CIA and the Pentagon to finance paramilitary missions against the left throughout the region. At the same time, the constitution provided the Honduran government with a political legitimacy that allowed the dominant Honduran parties to share power within an institutional framework that discouraged the emergence of populist or leftist coalitions that might otherwise challenge the political and economic interests of the Honduran elite.[viii] As sections of the Honduran elite became more closely tied to transnational firms with strong links to the US State Department, the US Agency for International Development began supporting a network of NGOs that have long advocated a neoliberal agenda in Honduras, defined as a deeper integration of the Honduran economy with sectors of transnational capital supported by the US government.[ix]

The US-financed NGOs in Honduras were opposed by a grassroots Honduran NGO network that consisted of labor unions, teachers’ organizations, farmer associations, and professional groups that supported Zelaya’s populist policies. These grassroots organizations were largely cut off from international funding and access to the foreign media enjoyed by the US-sponsored NGOs, which orchestrated an international propaganda campaign on behalf of the provisional Honduran government and in support of the coup. In US newspapers, the pro-Honduran coup supporters were given much more editorial support than their domestic counterparts in Honduras that opposed the coup. Reports by international NGOs such as Amnesty International, which condemned the violence perpetuated by the coup government, were given very little attention in the US media, which focused instead on what US columnists called the “illegality” of the actions of President Manuel Zelaya, whom coup supporters insisted had violated the Honduran constitution and left the government little choice but to react strongly to his transgressions.

More:
http://www.viewfromleftfield.com/the-us-role-in-the-honduran-coup-of-2009/

[center]~ ~ ~[/center] There are tons of articles we can bring to bear on this subject. They lack that dirty spin which has been spewed relentlessly from our corporate media for years. You are dead right to call trolls on their propaganda echo here. Any Democrat by character can smell it a mile away.

Zorro

(15,740 posts)
159. Don't you ever tire of bombarding forums with anti-US/anti-Obama/anti-Democratic agitprop 24/7?
Mon May 4, 2015, 09:54 AM
May 2015

Rall? Weisbrot? Commonscreams? Really? Talk about dirty spin.

FYI Democrats generally approve Obama's foreign policies; haven't seen you express any such support ever, so you're hardly one to characterize those who do as right-wing trolls.

And Maduro's still an idiot and now a dictator. Only commie symps would defend a policy of nationalizing food distribution in a country with such a wealth of natural resources.

Judi Lynn

(160,516 posts)
178. Obama's policy regarding Venezuela, as one example, is indestinguishable from George Bush's.
Mon May 4, 2015, 04:15 PM
May 2015

George Bush was despised throughout the Americas for his anti-Democratic actions, just like Richard Nixon.

Your attempt to label me a "commie symp" since I don't support the right regarding exploiting, controlling these countries is out of place. Why would you start shooting off your "commie symp" label gun, anyway?

[center]

Poor Republican Joe McCarthy.

He wasn't entirely well, you know, before he died of alcoholism.[/center]

Judi Lynn

(160,516 posts)
179. I forgot to mention, welcome to D.U., clg311!
Mon May 4, 2015, 04:18 PM
May 2015

You'll discover there are actually Democrats here! They just don't throw fits like the trolls.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
24. If the farms are owned by the government, and the workers paid as government employees, no problem.
Sat May 2, 2015, 08:01 PM
May 2015
The question is, do they own the land in question?

Will they be able to pay the workers, in wages or other renumeration (with costs offset with housing, or a share of what they grow, as a communal group - which isn't that desirable, Libertarians love that idea - it's called cheap labor) to make them anything more than peons again?

Will they have rights?

Of course, if the first question is not addressed in fairness to all, the rest is just horseshit and will not succeed.

In a truly socialist society, the ownership of things essential to the public good is assumed. So this should be no surprise as a solution. The problem I have learned is that Maduro is running a system that is not what many of us believe a socialist government to be.

Instead of being a crony capitalist system, it is a crony system with huge wealth being transferred to individuals and others who are becoming the new oligarchs, or boligarchs, hiding under the rhetoric of socialism for people who will buy that brand without thinking in the larger context of what is going on there, where the power really is.

Like Putin, now a billionaire from his time in government, but we may have fantasies he is against Western evils, that is horseshit. He's an oligarch. Maduro and his cronies appear to be working fast and furious to become the nouveau riche.

It is not even a liberal society in terms of human rights:

Abortion is illegal in Venezuela. This is not a sign of a liberal nor a progressive political environment. It has one of the top rates of HIV infection and underage pregnancy and is reportedly anti-semetic. This is not the record of say, a state like Norway, Sweden, etc. If half the people are kept to second rate status by culture, that country does not believe in human rights. There is no place to hide or any rhetoric to hide behind. No ands, ifs, or buts. EOM.

I favor these things in any government:

a robust health system without profit funded by strong government as Scandinavian nations have had;

public systems of water and electricity and less parasitic feeding on those which is happening in various degrees now, where people use the public system but extract profit which degrades the system by virtue of privatization or other less obvious schemes;

and nationalization of extractable energy sources that are often managed with profit being the prime interest, while degrading water, land, air, health and all the other evils that people have traditionally turned a blind eye to because they have this blind faith that business and people they have no control over whatsoever, will take care of them. Pull my other finger!

So it ain't a socialist paradise by any means and I refuse to accept history as the cause of that. No one is making them behave in the way that the government there is doing. We're not talking even remotely talking of what Bernie would approve. I approve of him, but not the grinding on and on of anti-Obama and anti-HRC -- not my first choice and she was my last choice in 2008-- rhetoric. The cheap shots have the PUMA stench or 'Party Unity My Ass.' That is not from him, but those who, like the PUMAs, turned many of us off from HRC for many years.

Yes, I am a heretic and a rebel and can think very well for myself.

Every nation, every culture, is different. I'd be glad to live in any of the Scandinavian or European countries who have benefited their population. Not Venezuela, as it has ignored everything but economic theory.

No, I do not fit in the boxes some are trying to force some of us into at DU, because:



 

NobodyHere

(2,810 posts)
50. I'm guessing Maduro's supporters will get food and anyone who opposes Maduro won't.
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:29 PM
May 2015

Maduro's done such a great job in Venezuela that he deserves even more power. /sarcasm

Of course I *hope* this works out in favor of the public but I just see a dictator grabbing more power.

Little Tich

(6,171 posts)
51. Maduro is incompetent, just like his predecessor.
Sat May 2, 2015, 10:29 PM
May 2015

The problems in Venezuela were not unexpected, and things will only get worse.

 

quadrature

(2,049 posts)
92. this is a JOBS Program
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:18 AM
May 2015

the food industry employs thousands.

all those jobs will go
to Maduro supporters

Bacchus4.0

(6,837 posts)
113. the US is the second largest agricultural exporter to Venezuela
Sun May 3, 2015, 12:22 PM
May 2015

and the overall largest trading partner of Ven. Venezuela is the largest corn and soy meal market in South America for the US.

Venezuela is the USA's largest wheat and rice market in South America.

"Though Venezuela was a net rice exporter as recently as seven years ago, the country currently relies on imports for nearly 40 percent of its rice consumption."

http://www.fas.usda.gov/data/venezuela-prospects-us-agricultural-exports

GGJohn

(9,951 posts)
119. I LMAO when someone claims the US has economic sanctions against VN.
Sun May 3, 2015, 02:15 PM
May 2015

They don't even try to google and learn that those sanctions are against 7 govt officials for their role in the repression of opposition protesters.

If the US has an economic embargo against VN, this has to be the world's worse embargo or sanctions.

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