Pirate Capt Kidd's 'treasure' found in Madagascar

[Bosonic]

Source: BBC

Underwater explorers in Madagascar say they have found what is thought to be the treasure of notorious Scottish pirate William Kidd.

Soldiers on Sainte Marie island have been guarding the 50kg silver bar after divers brought it to shore.

Madagascar's president as well as UK and US diplomats received the suspected treasure at a ceremony on the island.

Capt Kidd was executed in 1701 for piracy after returning from a voyage to the Indian Ocean.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-32621444

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[dixiegrrrrl]

1. What's the law on who gets to keep buried treasure, I wonder?

Seems it might be a lucrative venture.

[Johnyawl]

2. Seeing as how it was found in Madagasgar waters...

...I would imagine Madagascar's laws would apply on how it's divided up.

[Beakybird]

4. The treasure hunters probably negotiated

with the government beforehand. My cousin was an investor in the search and discovery of the Concepcion off of the coast of the Dominican Republic, and they had a contract on how to split things up before they started.

[calimary]

10. Welcome to DU, Beakybird!

Glad you're here! In your honor, I'm going to haul out a thread from the DU Lounge where we just go to have fun and be random. This was one I posted after this little nest above our front door suddenly was full of little beaky birdies!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018750193

[Xithras]

6. The laws in every nation (and sometimes state) are different.

In the United States, the general rule is that it's the property of the landowner. If you stumble across buried treasure while poking around in a farmers field, the treasure belongs to the farmer. If it's found on public land, it generally belongs to the government. If it is found on the seafloor, finders-keepers applies. The caveat is that American law DOES draw a distinction between property that is forgotten or abandoned, and property that was lost and that the owners were trying to seek. There was a case in Arizona a few years ago where a case where a known hoarder passed away. His daughters searched the house knowing that he'd been saving money somewhere, but were never able to find it and gave up. After selling the house, the new owners did some renovations and found a half-million dollars hidden inside of the walls. The new owners tried to keep the money, but the daughters sued and the court agreed with the daughters. Why? Because the money was part of the mans estate, passed to the daughters when he died, and they had been lost to them against their will. Because the money was "lost" and not "abandoned", the finder didn't get to keep it. This is the same reason why you can't legally pocket a strangers wallet or diamond ring you find on the ground, even if they drop it on your property.

In other nations, like Britain and France, buried artifacts and treasures are all considered to be property of the government. The government will give you a certain percentage of the finds cash value as a finders fee, but you don't get to keep the actual treasure itself. It's considered to be part of the shared history of the nation, and therefore the property of all citizens.

I have no idea what the law is in Madagascar.

[dixiegrrrrl]

7. Around here, people are still occasionally finding buried silver on old plantations

or the equivalent.
Since genealogy is so prized here, there are lots of records going back 300 years to show who owned what and who their descendants are.

[happyslug]

9. Not according to my law school

Now the Common Law rule as to lost property is that it ALWAYS belong to the person who lost it and if that person EVER appears, the property MUST be turned over to that person or his or her's heirs. You have to make a reasonable effort to return the property but telling other that you found the property generally is enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_mislaid,_and_abandoned_property

The general rule attaching to the three types of property may be summarized as: A finder of property acquires no rights in mislaid property, is entitled to possession of lost property against everyone except the true owner, and is entitled to keep abandoned property. This rule varies by jurisdiction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost,_mislaid,_and_abandoned_property

Treasure Troves were handed similarity but at times differently. The trend today is to treat both the same. From about 1908 till 1948 there was a tendency to say such property belonged to the land owner, but more recent court cases have returned to the older concept it belongs to the finder of the property.

Thus the person with the best claim to lost property is the person who found the lost property. This includes any claims the owner of the property it is found on. This includes Stores (some states have recognize an exception if the finder is a trespasser on the land but NOT if such trespassing was open and well known practice, these cases all reflected the law on Trespassing before the modern concept of Criminal Trespassing was invented in the 1890s).

Now most retailers in the US will take such found money, if turned over to them, and if no one claims it, keep it for themselves. The person who found it would have to sue the store for the money, and would win but he or she would have to pay her own attorneys cost (thus what you should do is if you find such money, tell the store you found the money but KEEP the money, just give them your name and phone number to be given to anyone who claims to have lost the money, thus if no one makes a claim you still have the money).

A majority of state courts, including those of Arkansas, Connecticut, Delaware, Georgia, Indiana, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, New York, Ohio, Oregon and Wisconsin, have ruled that the finder of treasure trove is entitled to it. The theory is that the English monarch's claim to treasure trove was based on a statutory enactment which replaced the finder's original right. When this statute was not re-enacted in the United States after its independence, the right to treasure trove reverted to the finder

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treasure_trove#England_and_Wales_common_law

Case law on found property is that no matter where it was found, it belongs to the person who found it. Some exceptions exist, for example if you are hired to do something on someone's property, you are that person's agent and thus what you find belongs to the owner of the property (but this does NOT include finding money in a store, an employee MAY be ruled to be an agent, but not a customer).

Some State's have modified this law, but in the sense that the state gets the money NOT the person who found it.

Finds of money and lost property are dealt with by other states through legislation. These statutes usually require finders to report their finds to the police and transfer to their custody the objects. The police then advertise the finds to try to locate their true owner. If the objects remain unclaimed for a specified period of time, title in them vests in the finders.

New Jersey vests buried or hidden property in the landowner, Indiana in the county, Vermont in the township, and Maine in the township and the finder equally.

In Louisiana, French codes have been followed, so half of a found object goes to the finder and the other half to the landowner. The position in Puerto Rico, the laws of which are based on civil law, is similar

If the find is on Federal or Tribal Land, the Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 applies:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeological_Resources_Protection_Act_of_1979


As to England, the same rule applies, the finder of the property gets to keep what he finds NOT the person who owns the land it is found on. Now England has a rule that if you do find something of historical importance you MUST turn it over to the State (i.e. the Government of the United Kingdom) but then the State MUST pay you the value of the find.

Just a comment that most states any found property belongs to the finder of the property except if the original owner is located.

Wikipedia cites John M. Kleeberg on Treasure Trove extensively, this is his paper on that subject:

http://inc-cin.org/assets/pdf/articles/laws-usa.pdf

Texas does NOT recognize the difference between Lost property and Treasure Troves and thus treat both the same, i.e. it belongs to the finder of the property NOT the land Owner:

Texas declines to recognize treasure trove,46 but this difference is more a matter of nomenclature than a real legal difference from the general rule. The same court that held that treasure trove did not apply in Texas also held that mislaid property, if not claimed for a long enough period, would cease to be mislaid and would be considered lost

http://inc-cin.org/assets/pdf/articles/laws-usa.pdf

a
Only two states ruled that Treasure Troves belong the the Land Owner, Tennessee and Idaho.

Pennsylvania is the only state that a court has ruled that a Treasure Trove belong the the state, but the Pennsylvania Supreme Court reversed that decision on the grounds that the underlying action was an Escheat action under a statute (27 P.S. § 322) that applied to people with fiduciary duties and the requirements of that act had NOT been fully done and thus did not have to rule on the issue of Treasure Trove (i.e. the money found in the basement of the owner of the property had a duty under Statute to turn that property over to the Police till the real owner can be found. The Statute involved turning over all lost property, no matter how small, to the Treasurer of the Pennsylvania who then has the duty to locate the actual owner of the property, thus any lost property in Pennsylvania is suppose to go to the State under the Lost Property law NOT the Common Law Rule as to Lost property).

Only one state, New Jersey, has a statute that vests buried or hidden property in the locus owner, as well as any lost property found by a trespasser. All other lost property in New Jersey vests in the finder.

http://inc-cin.org/assets/pdf/articles/laws-usa.pdf

As to trespassers, New York and New Jersey have STATUTES That says trespassers have NO right to property they find on property there are trespassing, other states have adopted similar rules, but then say those rules do not apply if the trespassing is mere technical (again reflecting the change in Trespassing laws passed in the 1890s, prior to the 1890s it was NOT criminal trespassing to cross someone's fields, you had to enter the home or other locked building not open to the public or the Close around the home, i.e. what we would call the Yard. In the 1890s to keep union organizers out of Coal Mines and Manufacturing plants states started to make it criminal trespass to enter into an area marked with a No Trespassing sign and enforcing such laws).

The explanation that fits the greatest number of cases is that if the employer has a heightened legal obligation (usually imposed by statute) to take care of customers’ property, the court will award the found item to the employer; otherwise the property found goes to the employee. Examples of employers who have a heightened legal obligation to take care of their customers’ property are hospitals vis-à-vis their patients; common carriers vis-à-vis their passengers; and hotels vis-à-vis their guests.In a hotel this rule applies in the private guest rooms, but not in the public areas. Thus if a hotel cleaner finds a lost item while cleaning out a guest room, it goes to the employer as a custodian for the true owner, but if the cleaner finds it while walking through the lobby of the hotel, the cleaner gets it if the item remains unclaimed

Two exceptions to the rule that employees can keep what they find, these are Police Officers and people in the Military.

As to the Federal Rule as to Federal lands and tribal lands, the law is unclear. The only case involved brass Company tokens that the court found was "embedded" in the land and thus like an abandoned and forgotten foundation for a home, the property of the land owner not the finder of the property.

John M. Kleeberg Summed up Treasure Trove law in the US as follows

Treasure trove law in the United States may be summarized as follows:

(1) Treasure trove goes to the finder, unless the finder is trespassing. If the finder is trespassing, it goes to the locus owner.

(2) Treasure trove includes gold coins, silver coins, gold bullion, silver bullion, plus paper money; it must have “the thought of antiquity,” i.e. be several decades old. Courts have not yet decided whether treasure trove includes coins of base metals.

(3) Many finds of money are now handled not through the common law of treasure trove, but through statutory schemes, under which the money is deposited with the police for between ninety days and a year, and if the owner does not claim it by the end of that period, the money vests in the finder.

(4) Two states – Tennessee and Idaho – award treasure trove to the locus owner.

(5) Treasure trove is taxable at the ordinary income rate in the year that it is discovered.

(6) Employees get to keep what they find when acting in their course of employment, unless their employer has a heightened legal obligation towards the customers, in which case the property goes to the employer. Examples of employers with heightened legal obligations are hospitals vis-à-vis their patients, common carriers vis-à-vis their passengers, and hotels vis-à-vis their guests.

(7) Police officers, baggage inspectors, and members of the armed forces do not get to keep what they find when on duty.

(8) Finds in banks go to the bank; finds on government land go to the government.

(9) Finds in Indian graves on Federal or Indian land go to the Indian tribe that is most closely related to the decedent

[Romeo.lima333]

3. billy kidd the pirate

[Spitfire of ATJ]

5. Now figure in the Kevin Bacon connection.

[hughee99]

8. A good read on this...

http://www.amazon.com/The-Pirate-Hunter-Story-Captain/dp/B000FVHJ6C

My mother-in-law got it for me a few years ago. According to the book, it's disputed that Kidd even was a pirate and that he had the vast riches that are claimed.