Greeks maul pro-bailout parties: exit polls

[Eugene]

Source: Reuters

By Harry Papachristou and Deepa Babington

ATHENS | Sun May 6, 2012 12:17pm EDT

(Reuters) - Greek voters enraged by economic hardship deserted governing parties in droves in an election on Sunday, according to exit polls that threw doubt on the country's future in the euro zone.

Polls by six different pollsters indicated the only two parties supporting an EU/IMF bailout that is keeping Greece from bankruptcy would likely fall short of enough support to form a stable coalition government.

The exit polls showed conservative New Democracy and Socialist PASOK, who have dominated Greece for decades, reaching a maximum of 37 percent of the vote combined.

In a huge upset, a previously small leftwing party, the Left Coalition, was predicted to take around the same share of the vote as PASOK with 15-18 percent. In the previous election in 2009 they had less than 5 percent.

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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/06/us-greece-idUSBRE8440DG20120506

[MNBrewer]

1. Good!

[dkf]

2. Yes they need to get out of the Euro and fix their own problems. Good.

[FarCenter]

3. Angry voters deliver blow to Greek ruling parties

http://www.france24.com/en/20120506-angry-voters-greek-ruling-parties-pasok-new-democracy-austerity-legislative-parliament-elections

The conservative New Democracy led by Antonis Samaras was the largest party with 17-20 percent of the vote, insufficient to give it an absolute majority and down from 33.5 percent at the last election in 2009, the exit polls showed.

The left-wing Pasok saw its score slump to 14-17 percent from 43.9 percent. The party was even leapfrogged into second place by the leftist Syriza party, which scored 15.5-18.5 percent, up from 4.6 percent three years ago.

A neo-Nazi party, Golden Dawn, was also set to enter parliament for the first time in nearly 40 years, notching up 6-8 percent. The communist KKE scored 7.5-9.5 percent, compared to 7.5 percent in 2009, the exit polls showed.

[iandhr]

4. The fact that a Neo Nazi Party will enter parliament is troubling

[CactusJak]

5. Britain, except for the Mayor of London, Greece and now France

seem to be on a bit of a "vote the bass turds" out trend.

Quite frankly I get the same vibe from the vast majority of my acquaintances here in this country. Have to wonder what that might portend for November.

[hifiguy]

6. Fuck the banksters. Let them wither and die.

They deserve to be strung up like Mussolini, and their worthless parasite families with them. Death to parasitic capitaist scum.

[Turbineguy]

12. More than likely

they will do just fine. It's the rest of us that will be wiped out.

[Katashi_itto]

22. I am sure the French Aristocracy thought the same thing.

[IamK]

7. what specifically will Greek bankruptcy do to the US economy? n/t

[Mr.Turnip]

9. Well it would make the European crisis worse and seriously harm world markets.

So it would hurt the Economy in some ways, the real problem though would be if Italy or Spain defaulted.

[Mr.Turnip]

8. Im sort of concerend that the Greeks decided to make the Fascist a legitimate political force now.

[Harmony Blue]

10. Syriza isn't fascist.

Most people don't understand what Syriza is about, but that is understandable. Edit: Sorry, probably alluding to the Neo Nazi's yeah that is a surprising one.

[muriel_volestrangler]

11. Half counted: New Democracy (centre-right) 20%, Syriza (left) 16%, Pasok (centre-left) 14%

Pasok and New Democracy, in coalition since last November, were expected to lose support to anti-austerity parties.

There is widespread anger across Greece to harsh measures imposed by the government in return for international bailouts.

Syriza opposes the government's austerity measures.

The neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party could enter parliament for the first time if the exit poll prediction of it winning 6.5% -7.5% of the vote comes to fruition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17975370

The BBC had earlier said a combined total of 38% would be just about enough for New Democracy and Pasok to form another coalition without other parties, so it looks like that can't happen now.

[KamaAina]

14. In a parliamentary system, votes don't necessarily translate into seats.

RW New Democracy may have barely edged out Syriza, but they have twice as many seats: 101 to 51.

http://news.yahoo.com/greek-parties-vow-bailout-changes-211127157.html

Official projections Sunday showed New Democracy winning 18.9 percent, giving it 108 seats in the 300-member parliament — far short of the 151 needed to form a government. The anti-bailout left-wing Syriza party was projected second with 16.8 percent and 51 seats, and the formerly majority socialist PASOK lagged behind with 13.4 and 41 seats.

The extremist far-right Golden Dawn party, which ran on an anti-immigrant platform and wants landmines along Greece's borders, is projected to win 7 percent of the vote, giving it 22 deputies in Parliament — a massive gain for a party that until a few months ago was on the fringes of Greek politics.



In terms of seats, New Democracy + PASOK = 149: only two seats short of the status quo. How exactly does a 2.1 percent edge in votes translate into twice the number of seats?!

And the last thing we need is those 22 "extremist far-right" seats putting Golden Dawn (!) into a coalition.

[fedsron2us]

16. The largest party gets 50 'bonus' seats under the Greek system

presumably to ensure that some form of government can be formed. The problem is that if an ND and Pasok coalition continue down the EU/bankster mandated austerity road with only approximately 34% of the popular vote then there is almost certainly going to be civil strife that will make past riots look like tame affairs. It is a very dangerous situation.In many ways the Greek election results are far more important pointer to Europe's possible future than the result in France where essentially one establishment party leader is being replaced by another. It needs to be remembered that Greece, Spain and Portugal were all military dictatorships as recently as the early 1970s and that two out of the three also had bloody civil wars in the 20th century

[KamaAina]

18. 50 bonus seats for getting less than 20 percent of the vote

so that slim 1.2% edge puts the right squarely in charge.

Makes Bush v. Gore seem almost... democratic.

[tralala]

13. SYRIZA, the pro-cake-having, pro-cake-eating party

As in, they're anti-bailouts, but they want Greece to remain in the Eurozone. D'oh!

[David__77]

20. KKE has it right.

Syriza may be coy in their stated policies, but I still hope for a left-led government that will abandon the austerity program.

[tama]

25. About KKE

http://www.marxist.com/the-kke-and-the-greek-revolution.htm

[David__77]

26. I'm not too worried about old sectarian rivalries.

The left is very good at splitting, unfortunately. Lots of talk and not enough action. KKE is on the right side now. I'm not too worried about the 1940s.

[tama]

28. Right side?

Hierarchic, uncooperative, authoritarian... introverted puristic orthodoxy and militant opposition to other "progressive" forces, especially anarchists - KKE refused to participate in the occupy movement and ordered it members not to participate. And it's refusing to participate in the Syriza governement, even though it's a Marxist statist party. Only form of cooperation for KKE is "with us or against us".

Greek Communist party could have taken over after the WW2, but took orders from Stalin and did nothing.

[David__77]

29. I've rarely known any leftists as sectarian as certain anarchists.

I've seen extreme expressions of anti-communism by anarchists in a number of instances, even refusing to work in the same broad political groups as them.

I think it's reasonable for KKE to be highly suspicious of Syriza. KKE has been badly burned in the past by supporting social democratic forces that fall into neoliberalism at the drop of a hat (PASOK). I see nothing wrong with KKE not supporting Syriza. KKE is a party that wants a socialist social system, not just a Greek government led by socialists. If Syriza supported that, KKE would join with them.

KKE maybe could have won power in the 40s, maybe not. There has been a lot of criticism of them for allowing the British to establish a foothold early after the war. Did KKE submit to the (by then dissolved) Comintern position on international united front with the Anglo-Americans? Yes. Again, I see nothing inherently wrong. If Greeks supported them, they could have won later in the civil war as well.

[tralala]

30. What you consider "uncooperative" or "purism"

history might well recognize as "principled". It's important for political parties to maintain their independence. Especially communists, whose historical experience has been that ideological/political line makes the difference between success and failure.

[tama]

31. See the link above

That's criticisism of KKE from an Italian communist. As for ideology, I don't consider a party hierarchy taking over a state a "success".

[tralala]

32. I try to evaluate a political party on its own terms

and for an old school Communist Party, seizure of state power is a big part of success.

Marxist.com is a Trotskyist website, their criticisms of the KKE are fairly boilerplate.

[tama]

33. AFAIK old School commies/marxists

were internationalists, believing that socialist revolution and seizure of state power can only happen internationally/globally in the capitalist system. National socialism was later development, with both stalinist (KKE) and fascist (Golden Dawn) tendencies. By their fruits you know them, and learning from history could help to stop repeating less fun experiences...

[tralala]

34. Old school communists believed no such thing

"There is one, and only one, kind of real internationalism, and that is -- working whole- heartedly for the development of the revolutionary movement and the revolutionary struggle in one's own country, and supporting (by propaganda, sympathy, and material aid) this struggle, this, and only this, line, in every country without exception." - Lenin, Sept 1917

So I don't think internationalism ever meant pretending we live in a post-national or borderless world, or waiting for the bigger or more advanced countries to lead the way.

[joshcryer]

36. That's code language for War Communism, and was what led to the occupation of the Eastern Bloc.

[tralala]

37. The failed Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union

led to the occupation of the Eastern Bloc, not ... whatever it is you think "War COmmunism" means.

[tama]

39. Ribbentrop and Jalta

Stalin invaded half of Poland, took over Baltic countries and tried to invade Finland after making a deal with Hitler - long before the operation Barbarossa. "Commie" state starting imperialistic wars is what I guess "War Communism" means. In Jalta Roosevelt (and Churchill) divided Europe with Stalin. Stalin gave Greece to GB and USA, hence the betrayal by KKE taking orders from Stalin of the revolutionary Greek people.

[tralala]

42. Nah

One would have to really reach very far to infer all of that from the term "War Communism". Maybe "joshcryer" was thinking of "Permanent Revolution", which in the context of Soviet politics was the proposed policy of exporting revolution to other countries.

[joshcryer]

46. The Entire Eastern Bloc was occupied by a war machine.

I admit that "war communism" refers more to the Russian Civil War in a historical context, but I cannot differentiate between the communism practiced during the Russian Civil War and the communism practiced by the Occupied Eastern Bloc.

[joshcryer]

45. It's not really war communism from a historical perspective.

War communism generally refers to communism as practiced in the Russian Civil War. I call it war communism because we saw what happened to Russia when the Baltic states broke away. Russia was relying on them from an economic point of view to keep the system sustained. It was very much like the communism as practiced in the Russian Civil War.

You'll note that many thought the Yalta Conference was bullshit and Stalin ignored the agreements there anyway when he formed the Soviet bloc. The US was foolish to deal with Stalin as they thought he would accept their agreements.

[tama]

47. OK

Betrayal and murder of Machno anarchists and Kronstadt marines come to mind as worst examples of war "communism". Real communism was feeding the starving urban population in Ukraina by anarchist peasants when urban people had nothing left to eat and barter.

Stalin respected the agreement over Greece, in Greek civil war revolutionaries got support only from Tito.

[joshcryer]

44. Nope, the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact divvied up the Eastern Bloc regardless.

The occupation of the Eastern Bloc was a foregone conclusion. It's only interesting that after Germany fell it still got divvied up, because the allies didn't care so much about a small bit of Europe being annexed.

[GliderGuider]

15. We are entering a protracted period of political pandering in the politics of Greece

As in, there shall be electoral chaos for the foreseeable future.

Major Western nations, please take careful notes.

[fujiyama]

17. I think you got it

People don't like the status quo...Big surprise. This is an example of a fitful burst of anger. That's why you see up to 8% of the vote going for freakin' neo Nazis. I see no clear winner in this clusterfuck. I think we'll see more chaos in Greece and Germany may well say they're tired of dealing with them and just cut their losses.

Greece is fucked either way. They can comprise with the bailout deals and suffer through crippling austerity for years, which won't necessarily grow their economy or improve the lives of their people... or they can default, exit the Euro, and basically be locked out for decades from borrowing from international markets. This means very limited access to international markets and considerable economic isolation. Either way they'll be suffering. But if they exit, they can at least control their own currency. The EU has been incredibly stupid the last few years in working out unworkable bailout packages the last several years. They should have been working on credible and orderly exit plans for Greece from the Euro...

Greece will inevitably default. And Spain and Italy are in deep shit too. I don't see a good outcome.

[bemildred]

27. Yep. nt

[unkachuck]

19. more great news!

....may the wall-street casinos, the crooked melt-down banksters, main-street gamblers and other financial thieves, have a great day tomorrow!

[muriel_volestrangler]

21. They may be 2 seats short of a majority for a New Democracy/Pasok coalition

With 99 percent of the vote counted, New Democracy had 18.88 percent, followed by the Coalition of the Radical Left (SYRIZA) 16.76 and PASOK in third on 13.19.

The nationalist Independent Greeks garnered 10.6 percent, the Communist Party (KKE) 8.47 percent and the neo-Nazi Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn) 6.97 percent. Democratic Left was the final party to make it into Parliament with 6.10 percent.

In terms of seats, this translates into 108 for New Democracy, which receives an extra premium of 50 seats for coming first, 52 for SYRIZA and 41 for PASOK. Independent Greeks gained 33 seats, KKE 26 and Chrysi Avgi (Golden Dawn) 21. Democratic Left won 19 seats.

The Ecologist Greens and the right-wing Popular Orthodox Rally (LAOS) narrowly avoided meeting the 3 percent threshold to enter Parliament, gaining 2.93 and 2.9 percent respectively.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite1_1_07/05/2012_440936

300 in the parliament, so 151 would be a majority; ND/Pasok have 149.

Anyone know what the policies of "Independent Greeks" are like? The article says Democratic Left has ruled out joining a pro-Euro coalition, and they were the only party the artilce thought might have supported 'pro-Euro' policies.

[tama]

24. ANEL

Independent Greeks is the (former) ND faction that opposed "pro-Euro" policies and got expelled/resigned from ND.

What is sad is that they might be more willing to join the Radical Left governement of "Big No" to Troika before the extremely sectarian KKE.

[Eugene]

23. Attempt to form Greece government fails after shock poll

Source: Reuters

Attempt to form Greece government fails after shock poll

By Renee Maltezou and Lefteris Papadimas

ATHENS | Mon May 7, 2012 1:56pm EDT

(Reuters) - A first attempt to form a new Greek government collapsed in less than a day on Monday after a shock election which left gaping questions over the country's ability to avert bankruptcy and stay in the euro.

Greeks enraged by the terms of international bailouts which have cut wages, sent unemployment to one of the highest levels in Europe and caused a spate of suicides, deserted mainstream parties in droves in Sunday's poll, plunging their country into uncertainty.

Antonis Samaras, leader of the conservative New Democracy party which won the biggest share of the vote gave up trying to form a government on Monday night within hours of getting a mandate from President Karolos Papoulias.

His efforts were rebuffed by a string of anti-bailout parties who had benefited from the electoral earthquake which sent tremors across the euro zone.

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Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/07/us-greece-idUSBRE8440DG20120507

[woo me with science]

35. DU Rec. nt

[hack89]

38. To bad they didn't pick the "able to form a government" parties. nt

[Harmony Blue]

41. Government formed by appeasements never work.

Compromise? Sure, but appeasements? No. In essence I can explain the situation happening in Greece very bluntly.

In essence, Greece has no identity or long term vision. Hence why each party is offering their vision of what Greece should look like.

Golden Dawn brings up the point that Greece has a major illegal immigrant problem (mainly illegals from Afghanistan and Pakistan). When 10% of the population living in Greece are illegals this is why a nationalistic Neo Nazi party gains such favor. Europe doesn't allow Greece to kick out these illegals because it is considered inhumane. But Greek citizens are having to see massive cuts in pay, pensions, etc due to austerity measure which are inhumane. In short, a country like Greece has enough problems, but having to feed, clothe illegals immigrants from war torn countries (thanks United States for the "nation building efforts&quot only compounds the situations.

PASOK and ND pretty much have been the good cop/bad copy routine down for a long time, but it is coming to an end. Reality is, people are fed up with both parties allowing the out of control situation in governance.

KKE is in support of feeding and clothing the illegal immigrants, and takes it is a step further that the common workers and people need to be all treated humanely. In essence, they oppose kicking out the illegal immigrants and austerity measures.

Syriza is an interesting case because they are a wildcard but they will not abandon their pro labor routs. This is where Syriza's goals align with the KKE.

LAOS is not mentioned much but they could sneak into the fray if this political mayhem continues.

[tama]

43. LAOS

I doubt they'll return, they lost cred for participating in the previous pro-Troika governement.

[tama]

40. Big gains for Syriza in latest poll

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/anti-bailout-coalition-soars-popularity-ahead-second-greek-election

Syriza: 23.8%, up from 16.8% in the election
New Democracy: 17.4%, down from 18.9%
Pasok: 10.8%, down from 13.2%
Independent Greeks: 8.7%, down from 10.6%
KKE: 6.0%, down from 8.48%
Golden Dawn: 4.9%, down from 7%
Dimar: 4.0%, down from 6.11%