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JI7

(89,244 posts)
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 02:10 AM Sep 2015

Native Americans Question Canonization of Fr. Junipero Serra

Last edited Wed Sep 23, 2015, 03:00 AM - Edit history (1)

Source: abc

Pope Francis will canonize Father Juniper Serra, on Wednesday, and according to Caleen Sisk, the chief of the Winnemem Wintu Tribe, many Native Americans are opposed to the decision.

Sisk mentioned thousands of California Indians died during the time the missions were built.

"They were taken from their homes, they were stolen from their families and they were killed,"Sisk said.

Sisk sees Father Serra different from the Catholic church, saying she does not know if they are ready to accept Father Serra did good for the Native Americans.

"I mean isn't there somebody that is really good that could be a saint because this guy is far from sainthood," Sisk explained.

Sisk added Pope Francis did not consult the tribes before making the decision, saying he, the Pope, is not even coming to California.

"There is a lot of disgust about this because, the future, the histories of the future is now turning this man, who has blood all over him, to a saint," She stated.



Read more: http://www.krcrtv.com/news/local/native-americans-question-canonization-of-fr-junipero-serra/35403982



even with the criticism wasn't Father Serra one of the "better" ones ?
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Native Americans Question Canonization of Fr. Junipero Serra (Original Post) JI7 Sep 2015 OP
F****ing disgusting. Glad I'm an atheist. roody Sep 2015 #1
+1 CharlotteVale Sep 2015 #6
Right On! left on green only Sep 2015 #2
it's always interesting to watch the Acjacemen's splits on Serra MisterP Sep 2015 #3
From whose perspective? tecelote Sep 2015 #4
More like a Conquistador in a cassock joe_stampingbull Sep 2015 #5
just another god to pray to... Javaman Sep 2015 #7
Serra was really only "better" in one regard. Xithras Sep 2015 #8
But who else was going to stop the Russians? The Jesuits were kicked out of Mexico by 1768. happyslug Sep 2015 #9

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
3. it's always interesting to watch the Acjacemen's splits on Serra
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 04:20 AM
Sep 2015

and even more interesting to contrast him with de Las Casas (I mean, at least Serra's subjects managed to survive ...)

it was Gómez Farías that earned eternal loathing, and Juarez did things that would make the boarding schools' masters and mistresses puke for a month

tecelote

(5,122 posts)
4. From whose perspective?
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 04:33 AM
Sep 2015

"I mean isn't there somebody that is really good that could be a saint because this guy is far from sainthood," Sisk explained.

From Wikipedia:
"The missions were primarily designed to bring the Catholic Christian faith to the native peoples."

Every time I drive past one of the many "Indian Schools" I imagine what I would do if some strangers tried to forcibly take my kids away to indoctrinate them into some strange radical religion.

He's no saint.

---

Also from Wikipedia...

"In September 1752, Serra filed a report to the Inquisition in Mexico City from Jalpan, on "evidences of witchcraft in the Sierra Gorda missions." He denounced several Christian non-Indians who lived in and around the mission for "the most detestable and horrible crimes of sorcery, witchcraft and devil worship"

Javaman

(62,510 posts)
7. just another god to pray to...
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 09:27 AM
Sep 2015

isn't it interesting how the Catholic church has all the various "saints" to pray to for different things?

the melding of polytheism and the catholic church to keep the early romans happy.

and here I thought there was "only one true god" what's really the point of having saints? demigods?

Xithras

(16,191 posts)
8. Serra was really only "better" in one regard.
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 12:29 PM
Sep 2015

In an era when most Europeans looked on Native Americans as subhuman, as a potential slave pool, as an annoyance to be expelled or worse...as an impediment to colonialism that needed to be exterminated, Serra had a different view. He saw Native Americans as potential equals who were simply uncultured and following the "wrong" faith. His perspective was basically "God made us all equal. Life made us unequal. God can make us all equal again." He believed that by "educating and civilizing" the Native Americans, they could exist as equals in a European-derived society.

Putting aside the fact that his ideals completely discounted the native religions and cultures that were already here, his proclamations look a lot less wholesome when you look at his processes. Serra was an ascetic Fransciscan monk, which means that he took a vow of poverty and suffering. In the New Testament, Jesus makes comments about turning the other cheek, living meekly, about the poor inheriting the Earth, about wealth being the root of evil, about the need to give all you have to others without hatred. Most modern Christians ignore these passages, but they're core to Franciscan beliefs, and ascetic Franciscans believe that poverty and suffering are the only ways to really embrace God. Franciscans believe that the poor and downtrodden are God's true chosen people. Because Serra was a Franciscan, he embraced this worldview and pushed it onto the Native Americans in the missions. The result, predictably, was that most were miserable.

While Pope Francis is a Jesuit and isn't ascetic, many of his beliefs align with the Franciscans, and he was seen as sympathetic to the Franciscan worldview long before he became Pope (that's why he won't ride around in flashy cars). When he was selected as Pope, the fact that he chose Francis as his new name...the name of the founder of the Franciscan order...raised more than a few eyebrows. Given his embracing of the Franciscan worldview, it's understandable why he'd be interested in canonizing Serra.


 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
9. But who else was going to stop the Russians? The Jesuits were kicked out of Mexico by 1768.
Wed Sep 23, 2015, 10:53 PM
Sep 2015

Last edited Wed Sep 23, 2015, 11:37 PM - Edit history (1)

People forget the reason the Spanish moved into California in the 1770s was due to Russian moves from Alaska into Oregon and Northern California at the same time period. The British and New England sailors had also moved into Oregon, but neither built any permanent bases, unlike the Russians who did (Thus the Lewis and Clark expedition plan was to sail from Oregon on an American ship around the Horn, but arrived to late and thus had to walk back over the path they had come over) . These were NOT large outposts, but there were still outposts. In fact Sutter of Sutter's Mills fame had purchased his saw mill from the Russians. It was the Russians who controlled what was later to become the Gold Fields of California, but the Russians wanted Furs not Gold.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_the_Americas#California

Now the Russians started to pull out of California and Oregon in the 1830s, as they came to terms with the US and an understanding that both had a mutual enemy in Britain and if one was attacked the other would help the one attacked. Thus US ships smuggled goods into Sevastopol during the Crimea War of 1854 and from 1862 to 1866 the Russian Fleet was stationed in New York City and Boston. One of the reasons Alaska was sold by Russia to the US in 1867 was that Russia thought the US could defend Alaska from a British Attack better then the Russians could.

Given the climate of California and the distance from Mexico (and the prevailing currents), Spain "Claimed" California as Spanish from the 1500s onward but made no serious efforts to show any control till the 1770s. The borders of the Spanish claim was unclear till the US and Spain agreed to a border in 1819 (Two years later Mexico won its independence but accepted the 1819 treaty borders).

The main reason for the lack of Spanish moves into California prior to the 1770s is the prevailing currents. The fastest way to get from Acapulco, on the Mexican Pacific Coast, to California by sail only, is by sailing OUT to Hawaii taking the California Current to Hawaii, and then catching the Japanese Current to California (This is why Hawaii became Important for the US after 1800 when the US started to move into Oregon and Washington State). The prevailing current on the Pacific Coast is SOUTH from California to Mexico, you either have to fight that current OR bypass it via Hawaii, both were difficult in the days of sail. Given Southern California had not large river like the Colorado River, Spain preferred to concentrate its colonization efforts along the Rio Grande River in Texas and New Mexico.

Side note: Spain was concerned about who was in California for its fleets of ships tended to sail to California along the Japanese Current and then south to Mexico. On trip to China and the East Indies the same ships headed due West on the California current away from Mexico and California. These are still the prevailing travel routes; you do not fight currents if you can help it.

Thus when the Russians started to move south in search of furs in the 1700s, that frighten the Spanish. Land no one except Native Americans were on was entirely acceptable to the Spanish Government in Mexico, but land where any European power with the ability to operate sailing ships, even if the presence was extremely small, was a completely different matter for the later threatened the Spanish commercial Fleets between the East Indies and China.

Given the above and that California was known to be a dry place even then, the decision was to have the Catholic Church Establish missions instead of the Spanish Army building forts. It was important to have a prescience with the Natives Americans, so they would NOT go to Russian Forts and embrace Orthodoxy and leadership from Moscow. Getting the natives to embrace one's own religion was one way to get them to support you against the other side in the fight for California, thus the fight between Russia and Spain was over whose church the Natives would go to. That fight was a fight the Spanish could not afford to lose if they wanted to retain California and thus the rough efforts as conversion.

Second side note: The Spanish Government was encouraging religious missions in California while the same Spanish Government out of Mexico City was converting the Missions in Texas to forts, so the mission lands could be sold to land private land owners to the benefit of the Government in Mexico City. Yes, the same Government was TAKING land from the Church in Texas and making those lands private, encouraged a religious expansion in California. Now the Missions in Texas were controlled by the Jesuits and the expansion in California was done by the Franciscans but the difference in treatment of the two set of missions during the same time period is remarkable.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Society_of_Jesus

Third Side note: At least one Historian stated the reason Spain lost its South American Empire was Spain forgot that that Empire was a Spanish-Jesuit empire and when the Spanish kicked out the Jesuits in the mid 1700s and confiscated the Jesuit’s missions, the Spanish also destroyed what was really holding that empire together, including the communication system of the various parts of the Empire back to Spain. Spain had its local governors report to the Governor in Mexico City and then to the Crown, but the Jesuit had they own independent communication system that could bypass the official system and get news to the crown the local governors did not want the people above them to hear (Thus leading to replacement of those local governors OR a resolution of the problem before it became to big). Once that communication system was destroyed, the Empire only had the official communication system, a system where the local governor had reasons NOT to report things that make him looked bad. Thus you start to see more and more regionalism (Mexico vs. Central American for example) and less helping each other to address joint problems. This lead to greater divisions within the Spanish Empire by the late 1700s and when Napoleon replaced the Bourbon Spanish King with his Brother in 1808, those divisions used that change to justify independence by 1830 and the Jesuits were no longer around to undermine those call for division and independence.

Fourth Side Note: The Jesuits were kicked out of France, Spain, Portugal, much if Italy etc in the mid 1700s but were protected in Russia by Catherine the Great (Frederick the Great of Prussia also protected the Jesuits). The Papacy officially suppressed the Jesuits in 1773, but that was NOT recognized inside Russia. Thus in 1782 the Papacy accepted that the Jesuits still existed on Russian occupied Poland and in 1801 made that official, but only ended the suppression outside of Russia in 1814 (and then Tsar Alexander I ordered the Jesuits out of Russia in 1820).

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