Snowden: I'd Go to Prison to Return to US

[bemildred]

Source: AP

---

Snowden told the BBC that he'd "volunteered to go to prison with the government many times," but had not received a formal plea-deal offer.

He said that "so far they've said they won't torture me, which is a start, I think. But we haven't gotten much further than that."

In an interview broadcast Monday on the BBC's "Panorama" program, Snowden said he and his lawyers were waiting for U.S. officials "to call us back."

Earlier this year, former U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said a plea deal with Snowden was a possibility.



Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/snowden-prison-return-us-34263775

[Renew Deal]

1. A US prison is where he belongs

He can return whenever he'd like.

[Eric J in MN]

4. No, Edward Snowden is a hero who informed the public

...that the NSA was violating our rights and lying about it to Congress.

[Renew Deal]

23. Snowden told the BBC that he'd "volunteered to go to prison with the government many times,"

He disagrees with you.

[Eric J in MN]

88. Snowden isn't volunteering to go to prison because he feels guilty.

He's making the offer because he wants to be a free man in the US afterwards.

In our criminal justice system, people who are falsely accused of crimes they had nothing to do with (which isn't Snowden's situation) often plead guilty to something because the US has such long sentences that going to trial isn't worth the risk.

[Adrahil]

36. He also released classified information about perfectly legal foreign intelligence operations. nt

[cprise]

134. What a coincidence, so did the NSA to private contractors

...about the private and legal details of millions of people. Only the NSA did it first.

And Snowden's release (which was necessary to show the extent of the spying) was to the press, not directly to the public.

[Adrahil]

135. Not an excuse....

What you are trying to do was is justify jis wrongdoing by pointing put the wrongdoing of the NSA.... on a COMPLETELY UNRELATED MATTER.

You wanna argue that Snowdne performed a public service by unconvering illegal NSA acitivities? Fine. That's mitigation. But it does not erase the enormous wrongdoing Snowden himself comitted. If he willing to own up to that, and face the consequneces, I'd welcome him home.

BTW, releasing classified data to the press is not treated any differently than teleasing it to the public at large. Snowden's irresposible release of classified information that dealt with perfectly legal, and legitimate foreign intelligence operations is not merely incidental to this matter.

[LiberalLovinLug]

142. Keep peddling for your dream world of 1984

I'm sure one day you'll get it.

[cprise]

172. The press is the Fourth Estate

and you better believe it does make a difference.

You're also making a disingenuous argument by cherry-picking from legalism and morality. The legalist mindset doesn't acknowledge "wrongdoing". It does (sometimes) acknowledge proportionality, and I believe Snowden's actions were proportional to what the police state is doing especially considering his predecessors were either made to suffer or swept under the rug for trying to follow whistleblower rules.

For those of you who care: Secure Messaging.

[Adrahil]

174. The Press has certain protections....

As guaranteed by the 1st Amendment. That does NOT protect a government employee or contractor if they give an unauthorized person, including a member of the press.

What you "believe" is irrelevant. Snowden did expose some governmental wrongdoing, and that would constitute significant mitigation for the actions he committed in exposing that. But that does NOT excuse revealing perfectly legal and legitimate foreign intelligence operations merely because he did not like them.

[cprise]

176. I think you're stretching the meaning of government legitimacy

But no doubt, your interpretation is 'relevant' to a ruling class that has clearly jumped the shark by any reasonable (even legalistic) standard.

Anyway, First and Fourth Amendment guarantees are not treated as actionable against the establishment; Their M.O. is to maintain impunity lest they lose their precious morale. They have even resumed the call for banning proper encryption among the general public.

Absent any existential threat to the nation, there is the question of why any legal operation should be protected from the press and accountability. We are talking about the kind of doublethink that turns the notion of public and private upside-down, justifies black budgets and even political meddling and persecution.

[Adrahil]

177. Why do you keep ignoring the issue?

You can argue that classifying information is not Constitutional, I guess. Good luck with that. If that's your argument, then you and I have no basis for a conversation, because you are living in a fantasy world.

But the fact of the matter is that some information IS legally classified, and revealing that information to an unauthorized person is a crime.

[cprise]

182. "The issue" LOL

is that some people lack any sense of proportionality in the exercise of power. When in doubt, just keep stamping that boot on the little guy's face.

Let me know when that thirst for punishment gets directed at the ones violating our civil rights. Until then, the character of their priorities will be interpreted as the mark of a police state. Now find a crevasse to hammer home your earnest concern for government "legitimacy".

Just remember, those food and housing prices keep a-rising. At some seemingly unpredictable point, your apologia for persecution (and in light of the other whistle-blowers, that's precisely the pattern here) may seem like folly.

[wildbilln864]

165. general betrayus ring a bell? n/t

[Adrahil]

173. Yup. And my opinion, he got off light. nt

[Galraedia]

67. Snowden is NOT a hero.

He didn't inform the public that the NSA was violating our rights, we already knew the Patriot Act was violating our rights long before Edward Snowden even worked at the NSA. Snowden even admitted to taking the job with the intention of leaking information. It's not like he took the job and came across some top secret extreme violation of U.S. privacy that the public wasn't already aware of and felt that it was his duty as an American to thwart this injustice. And I'd be willing to give him a free pass if he just stopped there. However, he exposed information about U.S. surveillance on foreign nations while fleeing to multiple foreign countries with this information. He's not a hero, just a crazy bastard with no understanding of how the world works.

[Rose77]

81. ya damn right!! statues erected to this hero, & Assange & Manning

they are WARRIORS for right.

[FrodosPet]

183. Those of us who were paying attention knew that in the late 70s / early 80s

But alas most people don't pay attention until a story makes it to Twitter and Facebook memes

[harun]

7. Why? Because you say? Whistle blowers deserve protections.

Why not let a jury of his peers (citizens, not spooks) decide what justice would be?

[Tarheel_Dem]

13. If he's looking for a "jury of his peers", he might want to stay where he is.

Edward Snowden Unpopular at Home, A Hero Abroad, Poll Finds

The whistleblower is viewed negatively by 64 percent of Americans familiar with him, results say.

A poll of Americans and people living in nine other Western countries has found exiled whistleblower Edward Snowden is far more popular abroad than he is at home.

Snowden, a contractor who worked with the National Security Agency, ignited an intense, ongoing global policy debate about mass surveillance in June 2013 by exposing the collection of vast amounts of phone and Internet records and communications by the NSA and allied intelligence agencies.

For his efforts, about 64 percent of Americans familiar with Snowden hold a negative opinion of him, according to KRC Research poll results shared with U.S. News. Thirty-six percent hold a positive opinion, with just 8 percent holding a very positive opinion.

The survey was commissioned by the American Civil Liberties Union, which provides legal representation to Snowden, who received asylum in Russia after the U.S. canceled his passport.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2015/04/21/edward-snowden-unpopular-at-home-a-hero-abroad-poll-finds

Snowie is hoping to become a campaign issue, but I don't think he'll like the results. I'll bet ACLU is pissed, because they commissioned this poll. Not the results they were hoping for, I'm sure.

[Hissyspit]

22. Yeah, Americans are never wrong about anything.

[grasswire]

45. survey done in April...nt

[Tarheel_Dem]

46. Are you suggesting that attitudes have changed? Link?

TIA

[cstanleytech]

57. I bet his approval number would be far higher if he had limited what he released to only

illegal things and not included stuff like details on US efforts on gathering intelligence on foreign governments.

[branford]

60. That certainly shifted the needle from concerned whistle-blower to rat traitor.

Fleeing to the noted human rights havens of China then Russia also didn't exactly scream selfless humanitarian.

[brush]

64. Agreed. That's always been my problem with Snowden

Revealing illegal domestic spying on the American public was laudable and praise worthy but releasing info on his own country's international covert operations was, IMO, sedition.

[wordpix]

73. I look forward to a trial that will be remembered for decades

I would love to sit on the jury

[cstanleytech]

85. You are going to have a long wait though as I doubt any sincerity on his part

over turning himself in to US authorities.
In fact it would not surprise me in the least if we were to learn that his grandstanding is part of the deal with the Russian government for allowing him to stay.

[davidpdx]

132. +1

[Tarheel_Dem]

131. +1

[LiberalLovinLug]

143. Surprise surprise surprise!

I'd say that 44% viewing him positively or very positively is amazing, considering the 24/7 smear campaign against him on any network news in the US. With not only the Republicans but the corporate puppets in the Dem party as well jumping on his back. And of course all the frightened fools, happily sacrificing their civil liberties to feel "safe" that mimic the faux outrage that what those sold-out politicians display.

Also no surprise that Americans living abroad, and citizens from other western nations; the ones that get less filtered and greater information on the topic, are much much more likely to view him positively.

Though apparently unpopular at home, Snowden has high favorability ratings elsewhere.

In Germany and Italy, 84 percent of adults familiar with Snowden view him positively. The figure is about 80 percent in France, the Netherlands and Spain.

[Tarheel_Dem]

148. No one is disputing his popularity abroad. In fact that's the title of the article. Duh!

However, I fail to see how that helps him in the country he wants to return to. Which is why he should stay where he is. The rest of your post is quite frankly >>>>>pablum.

[LiberalLovinLug]

151. As if you give a hoot about "how that helps him in the country he wants to return to"

And my post was not about simply pointing out his popularity in other countries, but an explanation for that...which you blithely ignore. Was that the "pablum" part?

[Tarheel_Dem]

152. I could give a shit about Edward Snowden, his accolytes, or his puppeteers.

[LiberalLovinLug]

154. Oh good answer!

An amateurish and juvenile photoshopped spoof cover slagging a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist.

Well, I guess its about as reliable as your posts in general. So it makes sense.

[Tarheel_Dem]

158. Glad I could help!

[Renew Deal]

24. No, because he says

"Snowden told the BBC that he'd "volunteered to go to prison with the government many times,""

[24601]

92. Whistle-blowers do indeed deserve protection. But whistle blowers use a legal path. Such paths

include but are not limited to the IGs from NSA, DoD, and DNI. They include the House and Senate Intelligence Committees. They do not include passing the information to anyone without the proper clearance and need to know. Mr. Snowden failed to follow any legal method and instead became a leaker rather than a whistle-blower.

And when interviewed by John Oliver, Mr. Snowden was asked about leaking US Collection on ISIL, he blamed the press for not protecting the information. Never mind that the press isn't entitled to that information either.

So I'll agree with him on his willingness to go to prison.

[blackspade]

108. "Whistle-blowers do indeed deserve protection. But whistle blowers use a legal path. Such paths"

'Such paths'....lead to prison these days. So I guess they are being protected in prison.....

[24601]

128. So who is in prison for going to the IG?

[Hissyspit]

20. Not really.

[yeoman6987]

52. I guess he has found out living in another country isn't as cheery

as he thought. Good lesson for all.

[davidpdx]

133. Especially living under Putin's thumb

I'm sure the Russian Government is watching him very closely.

[840high]

68. He's a hero to me.

[questionseverything]

127. me too

[blackspade]

106. No, a court of law is where he belongs.

An important step in our supposed system of justice.

[wildbilln864]

166. after Cheney, W, Rummy and Rice get their day in court! n/t

[Reter]

112. Says the Hillary/Bush crown

Which is why I'd never consider either.

[Renew Deal]

116. Crown?

[Reter]

137. Lol, I meant crowd, but it spell-corrected to crown

And that works too, so I guess my computer knows better!

[leftofcool]

2. What? You didn't like the Russians?

[Eric J in MN]

5. Edward Snowden gave up a great life with

...a high-paying job in order to inform the public.

He didn't plan to move to Russia. The US government canceled his passport and he got stuck there.

[pnwmom]

10. We don't know what he planned. Just what he did. n/t

[grasswire]

14. ...and what was that, in your opinion? nt

[pnwmom]

30. He took planes first to Hong Kong and then to Russia,

and then said he hadn't meant to stay in Russia.

And he was there with his computers full of downloaded files.

[Tarheel_Dem]

17. Thank You. "We don't know what he planned". We really have no idea.

[LiberalLovinLug]

145. obvious is obvious

Of course Putin and his oligarchy is OK with anything that may cause trouble for the American oligarchy. Its also the reason why they allowed the American arm of RT to hire leftwing critics of that same American oligarchy to have their own shows like Abby Martin and now Thom Hartmann. The tired old argument of "but but but...they do it too" (So that means its all ok to spy on our citizens and collect and store their data too!) is frankly childish.

[Tarheel_Dem]

150. !!!

[LiberalLovinLug]

153. Uh.....yeah

That's a big reason he cannot leave. Thanks for making my point.

?1370984195

[Tarheel_Dem]

157. Well, let's just celebrate that he's free of that infamous brutal tyrant, Barack Obama.

[LiberalLovinLug]

160. Once again you show such concern for Edwards well being

As if THAT is the main issue.

From those of us that actually care about civil liberty, it is still about Snowden's personal choice. He has to live with his decision, and where that is, is out of his control. But its touching that you have such concern, (Poor guy looks absolutely scared out of his mind). As opposed to the other right wing cartoons showing him as palling around with Putin, so kudos to you, you bleeding heart.

At any rate, for us, it is the truth he exposed and the can of worms that he opened, more than his discomfort, that he freely chose to risk, that is the main issue. Cold eh?

[Tarheel_Dem]

161. Nobody gives a shit.

[wildbilln864]

167. WRONG! n/t

[George II]

40. What was his reason to go to Russia in the first place?

[senz]

47. I'll be happy to tell you.

Snowden was on his way from Hong Kong to Ecuador where he had been offered asylum. He was to change planes in Russia but the U.S. government revoked his passport so he could not continue on to Cuba and thence to Ecuador, as planned.

Russia agreed to give him asylum. So he has been stuck there ever since.

[wordpix]

75. well now he's had an adventure & wants to come back & I say welcome

Let him have a fair trial by jury or plea deal or whatever. He's a young guy, give him his due and let him get on with his life.

[George II]

77. I've pointed this out in the past - Quito Ecuador is on the west coast of South America.........

.....on the Pacific, and Hong Kong is on the east coast of Asia, also on the Pacific.

There were non-stop flights from Hong Kong to Quito. So, what was his reason to go to Moscow when it was much easier, quicker, and less expensive to fly from Hong Kong to Quito rather than Hong Kong to Moscow to Quito.

[senz]

104. It looks like his situation was too complicated for straight flights.

He felt the net closing in on him while in Hong Kong. The story is complicated with twists and turns and conflicting opinions, but you can read it yourself here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Snowden

One thing is clear: he chose his destinations for his own safety; he needed countries that wouldn't turn him over to the American government.

I'm sure this disappoints the rabid rightwingers who for some reason are on DU and want to see him as a "commie" or some other traditional enemy of the United States. Those people need to drag their lazy hindquarters out of the 1950s and realize that Russia is no longer the Soviet Union.

[George II]

107. Who are these "rabid rightwingers" on DU that you're referring to. I haven't come across any.

[senz]

113. Oh, just look downthread a ways. You might see a few.

[George II]

120. Guess I'm missing them. Who might they be?

[senz]

122. Hey, they might be the type of person

who would attempt to trap other commenters into saying something that would get them a hide, with the intention of getting them enough hides to have them banned for awhile, as was done to cali. I think it's called "alert stalking."

Can you believe anyone would do a thing like that, George II? In fact, a couple of weeks ago on a huge, long thread someone posted a screenshot of a DUer bragging about doing that to cali. I think the bragging was on another forum, though.

What kind of people do such things, George II?

Let's hope Edward Snowden doesn't have to deal with any characters as nefarious as that.

[wildbilln864]

168. NAILED IT! thanks. n/t

[Darb]

178. Wait a minute,

Cali got put on time out? What goes around apparently comes around.

[senz]

181. I like her, Darb. Nice ducky in your avatar. nt

[branford]

69. Indeed, he didn't originally plan to go to Russia.

He first fled to the noted paragon of civil rights, humanitarianism and transparency known as China.

[senz]

100. Hong kong is quite different from China proper.

[senz]

42. Why would he "like" the Russians?

What an illogical question.

[hrmjustin]

3. Surprised by this.

[Eric J in MN]

6. Me too.

I knew he wanted a plea deal, but I assumed he'd only accept one without prison.

[grasswire]

8. authoritarians can't beat up on Snowden any more

1. He is willing to come home and face punishment; just wants a plea deal. His right under the law.

2. The refusal of the Obama administration to facilitate adjudication is puzzling. Why keep him in Russia as a celebrity, where he is free to communicate with the world?

[bemildred]

11. It is puzzling.

I think he is jerking their chain about it here.

I thought it was good of them to promise not to torture him.

[OnyxCollie]

44. The gov't didn't say anything about renditioning him to another country to be tortured.

The legalese will getcha every time

[bemildred]

48. Where's the trust?

Would we do something underhanded like that? Would principled, moral leaders like we have in the Pentagon do something like that?

I keep waiting for our political leadership to wake up, but no, it's butt-covering all the way.

We rot from within.

[wordpix]

76. Obama made it clear when he came in, no more torture

That is his legacy if we can win the WH again + more seats in Congress

[bemildred]

80. That's not what's puzzling.

Last edited Mon Oct 5, 2015, 09:50 PM - Edit history (1)

What's puzzling is why we don't want to get him back in custody enough to make a plea deal. At least we could control access to him, and if would certainly improve how we look. I would think the government would relish the idea of perp-walking him through a trial in which he pleads guilty.

[wordpix]

89. our gov. no doubt believes Snowden is in bad enough shape

that negotiating from afar will get best results. I am guessing Snowden has one thing the gov. wants, which is inside info about China/Russia.

[OnyxCollie]

115. No more torture.

Except for Chelsea Manning.

And force-feeding GITMO detainees.

How is it that the Senate can write a 6,000 page torture report, but Eric Holder couldn't find anything he could prosecute?

[wildbilln864]

170. excellent points,thanks!

[Elmer S. E. Dump]

138. Yeah, i'M GLAD THEY'RE MAKING AN EXCEPTION FOR HIM.

[branford]

15. No one has a right to a plea deal.

He does, however, have the right to come home and face a trial.

If he pleads guilty, the sentencing guidelines (and court discretion) permit such plea as a mitigating factor in sentencing.

In any event, I believe his comments are little more than theater. He's looking to return home and avoid prison time, and hopes his comments may prove a useful public relations exercise. I doubt they'll sway anyone, particularly those with authority in the DOJ.

[Tarheel_Dem]

18. ^^^^ THIS ^^^^

[grasswire]

51. everyone has the right to seek a plea deal.

I didn't say he had the right to get one. But he certainly can ask for one, or try to negotiate for one, or say in public or private that he wants one. It's a matter of free speech, not criminal law.

And a public figure with significant support is likely to ask for one openly.

[branford]

65. He may indeed ask for anything, but the government need not agree.

What you originally wrote may not be what you intended.

You stated, Snowden "...just wants a plea deal. His right under the law." I took that to mean you believe he was entitled to a plea agreement, rather than just seek one.

In any event, I still believe his comments were theater, and unless the Russians kick him out or are otherwise making his life truly unbearable (hey, I know I wouldn't trust him), he will not return as long as a prison sentence is a near certainty.

[msanthrope]

123. Actually, no. He doesn't have the right to seek a plea deal. nt

[msanthrope]

34. He does not have a right to a plea deal. in fact he has no rights under the law currently.

the funny thing about fleeing a jurisdiction is that you actually have no cause to claim rights in that jurisdiction unless and until you submit to the authority of that jurisdiction. he doesn't even have the right to advocate in a court of law that the Justice Department offer him a damn thing.

[wordpix]

79. very interesting - however, he IS an American citizen willing to face his legal

obligation to the fed gov. including going to jail. He should come back.

[Adrahil]

38. Umm, his right?

No defendant has a RIGHT to plea deal. He has a right to a trial by a jury of his peers.

I personally think it would be in the public interest to cut a plea deal with him, but we don't know what his conditions are. And you can be sure he has them. Plea deals usually require allocution and cooperation with authorities. I doubt he would admit to wrong doing, and he probably wouldn't work with authorities either.

[dixiegrrrrl]

43. "where he is free to communicate with the world?"

Thank you, Pres. Obama.

IMHO, this is a good thing.

I think you will find Snowden has a lot of understanding and support from the Boomer cohort, who went thru the same thing width Ellsberg
which eventually influenced the ending of the Viet Nam undeclared war.

[OilemFirchen]

61. Ellsberg was arrested and tried.

There's nothing to be learned from Snowden that we don't already know. Including the sad reality that he's a fucking coward.

[Eric J in MN]

90. Daniel Ellsberg writes that Snowden wouldn't get a fair trial.

Daniel Ellsberg:

Snowden would come back home to a jail cell – and not just an ordinary cell-block but isolation in solitary confinement, not just for months like Chelsea Manning but for the rest of his sentence, and probably the rest of his life. His legal adviser, Ben Wizner, told me that he estimates Snowden's chance of being allowed out on bail as zero. (I was out on bond, speaking against the Vietnam war, the whole 23 months I was under indictment).

More importantly, the current state of whistleblowing prosecutions under the Espionage Act makes a truly fair trial wholly unavailable to an American who has exposed classified wrongdoing. Legal scholars have strongly argued that the US supreme court – which has never yet addressed the constitutionality of applying the Espionage Act to leaks to the American public – should find the use of it overbroad and unconstitutional in the absence of a public interest defense. The Espionage Act, as applied to whistleblowers, violates the First Amendment, is what they're saying.

As I know from my own case, even Snowden's own testimony on the stand would be gagged by government objections and the (arguably unconstitutional) nature of his charges. That was my own experience in court, as the first American to be prosecuted under the Espionage Act – or any other statute – for giving information to the American people.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/30/daniel-ellsberg-snowden-fair-trial-kerry-espionage-act

[cstanleytech]

130. Thats Snowdens own fault since he has confessed that he leaked the information and yes

his chances of bail are zero since he has a history now of fleeing to escape justice so no court in its right might would grant him bail.

[LiberalLovinLug]

156. A coward?

Exposing secret misdeads of the most powerful nation on the planet is cowardly?

Whistleblowers are cowards.

Unquestioning authoritarians are patriots.

Up is down

and the sky is purple

[OilemFirchen]

159. Yes. Coward.

Ellsberg stayed and faced the consequences of his action. Snowden fled.

[LiberalLovinLug]

162. Snowden lives in a different time

where torture is sanctioned and the Patriot Act is law.

Oh, and here is what Ellsberg had to say on the matter:

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/30/daniel-ellsberg-snowden-fair-trial-kerry-espionage-act

More importantly, the current state of whistleblowing prosecutions under the Espionage Act makes a truly fair trial wholly unavailable to an American who has exposed classified wrongdoing. Legal scholars have strongly argued that the US supreme court – which has never yet addressed the constitutionality of applying the Espionage Act to leaks to the American public – should find the use of it overbroad and unconstitutional in the absence of a public interest defense. The Espionage Act, as applied to whistleblowers, violates the First Amendment, is what they're saying.

.....

Without reform to the Espionage Act that lets a court hear a public interest defense – or a challenge to the appropriateness of government secrecy in each particular case – Snowden and future Snowdens can and will only be able to "make their case" from outside the United States

[OilemFirchen]

163. Yeah, yeah. I read it the first time.

With all due deference to Mr. Ellsberg (and much is due), this is not his purview. He was a military analyst. He is not an attorney, nor does he have access to any contemporaneous information not already public.

Of more import, Snowden's ostensible offer negates Ellsberg's hyperbole. That is the subject, right?

[LiberalLovinLug]

164. Oh I see, it is more in YOUR purview than Ellsberg.

Got it.

and no, Snowden trying to get a deal for a fair trial (how shocking!) actually backs up the concern Ellsberg brings up.

[OilemFirchen]

169. My purview is irrelevant.

There is, however, one admitted practicing attorney on this thread. Perhaps you should toss your dull speculation her way.

[geek tragedy]

9. I'm guessing December 2016 is when this happens, nt

[bemildred]

12. That's going to be a real circus. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

16. He can stream baseball through MLB.com

I don't think they have country restrictions if he pays for the MLB teevee.

Enjoy!

[raindaddy]

19. He should be welcomed home as a hero....

The very fact that the issue of being tortured by his own country was brought up tells you how far to the right Cheney/ Bush shifted this country.

He'd be smart and wait for the election.. A Sanders administration would most likely pardon him.

[Dopers_Greed]

21. Did I stumble into Free Republic by mistake?

Didn't know we had so many fascists on DU

[Demeter]

25. You'd be surprised

Red baiters, haters, and Republicans, I expect. Also the intellectually and morally impaired. We get all kinds. Most are so out of touch with current events and stuck in their preconceived notions that no penetration can be attained.

And far too many drink the MSM Koolaid.

[m-lekktor]

26. and guess who they are all supporters of in the upcoming election?

no fucking surprise there.

[Demeter]

27. None whatsoever, in truth.

[senz]

126. Indeed.

It's nauseating.

[uhnope]

28. you might want to self-delete

calling people fascists because they disagree with aspects of what Snowden did is OTT and out of line.

For me, I don't quite get Snowden's demanding of special treatment. Suspected criminals who flee to foreign countries don't get a "plea deal" worked out in advance. He can come back to the US anytime and face justice, just like the rest of us would have to.

[OilemFirchen]

66. This survived a jury 3-4.

Descpicable.

[bemildred]

117. Well, you will note he didn't mention anybody in particular.

That's why. If he called any particular poster a fascist, that would almost certainly get hid.

[Tarheel_Dem]

54. Nope. The Snowden worship starts at Freak Republic & filters through here for shits & giggles.

They were caught using DU for their own disruptive propaganda purposes.

"Take a look on Democratic Underground

They have the gov't paid trolls out, trying to limit the outrage & rebellion on there.

If that is the reaction of hard core Dems to the news stories on the NSA, I want to stoke up some more of it.

Lots of traffic on DU.

It's the most popular Dem internet site, except for Huffy Po - where everything meaningful gets censored".

http://www.dailypaul.com/288556/clapper-and-feinstein-get-caught-lying-big-time#comment-3103138

[Bradical79]

63. I agree

Love the lies about how he didn't tell us anything we didn't already know, too. Such bullshit. Most of them only care that this happened on President Obama's watch. They don't really give damn about anything else, imo. It's just a team sport, a big game to them.

[jeff47]

94. Nah, some of us actually read what he leaked

instead of only reading fawning coverage of what he leaked.

Turns out he only leaked one program that actually "spied" on US persons - the NSA phone metadata program. Which, unfortunately, is legal under an overly-broad 1979 SCOTUS ruling that all phone records are basic business records, and thus have no "right to privacy" attached. (IMO, that ruling needs to be revisited in the face of the much larger amount of data in a cell phone record than a 1979 landline record)

All the rest of the stuff he leaked was set up to to spy on non-US persons. Or were techniques with no program attached. "You can hack a ____ by doing ____", not that they actually had hacked a US person's _____.

Greenwald was careful to not directly state that the NSA was spying on US persons, but heavily implied it. And the qualifiers and implications were turned into overt clams by media reporting on Greenwald's stories.

[blackspade]

110. Well played sir, Well played.

[Owl]

118. Both sad and perplexing.

[Demeter]

29. That article has a typo; let me fix it:

"Critics say his disclosures harmed the ability of the United States and its allies to fight WAGE terrorism"


There, that's better.

[Bloofer]

31. Sanders would pain him

As he should.

[MADem]

32. I just don't believe him.

I think he'd agree to go to prison with his laptops and a private cell in a country club prison with conjugal visits for no longer than "x" number of months etc., etc., etc., and "conditions aplenty."

He has no bargaining chips. If he thinks quips like "They won't torture me" are helpful, he's stupider than I first thought. Yeah, we'll "torture" you, pal--by leaving you where you stew. And Holder has no authority to do anything--a "plea deal" is ALWAYS possible with any criminal--that little throw-away quote from someone no longer in government is entirely meaningless...it's fluff to fill out a non-story story that is built around two or three statements that the lonely lad made in his BBC interview. What will happen when people stop calling? He'll be in Kim Philby territory.

He believed he could control the flood of information released by his media serfs, but the Russians had his shit when he was hiding out in the Russian Embassy in Hong Kong, before any of us even knew his name--and they made sure the Chinese got it, too, when he had that "interview" with the reporter from the South China Morning Post. They worked with the Chinese to make sure that HK didn't do their INTERPOL duty to stop him at the border, too--this is all classic Putin games.

Those guys cracked his uncrackable nut in two shakes of a lamb's tail, and they set him up to be the dummy--and perhaps he's finally starting to see that, that he was used. That's the BEST case scenario.

The worst case is that he was recruited/turned by the Russians when he was working in Japan, touted as a Pioneer of Electronic Freedom, given a swelled head, and his hubris-laden self bought it all--he was screwed-used-abused ... and dumped in Russia.

I'll bet it sucks to not get Doritos and Pringles and all that American stuff anymore--and given the re-establishment of the Cold War, I'm betting he's having a tougher time enjoying any "electronic" freedom over there, as well.

I guess the "indoor cat" (that is what he called himself) is having an urge to roam...? Or maybe Lindsey is moving on/not visiting as often?

Those Russian winters are no fun, and here comes another one...I'd say it sucks to be Ed, these days.

[msanthrope]

37. I wonder if he realizes how badly Greenwald betrayed him. nt

[MADem]

39. He might be starting to grab a clue...we haven't heard much from his old pal, lately.

Wonder if they've had a falling out?

[brush]

56. Greenwald made out very well. He played Snowden almost as badly as Putin did

He's rich from a huge media deal and Snowden is still stuck in Russia.

Hubris is a terrible thing. A twenty-nine-year old (at the time) lowly IT grunt somehow thought he was smart enough to maintain and control the release of all the info he absconded with as he traveled to China and then Russia, our two biggest international rivals.

Thinking that he would have bargaining power in Putin's orbit was just one of many miscalculations Snowden made. I mean Putin was once head of the KGB, a master spy. He was going to get the information from poor Eddie no matter what and score a huge PR victory at the same time. Snowden never had a chance.

Now he thinks he has bargaining power to come back here. Tsk tsk.

He's been in over his head since the moment he started downloading files.

[Comrade Grumpy]

124. Some people's Greenwald obsessions are showing n/t

[wordpix]

86. Here's something Snowden has that the US gov wants:

He no doubt had access to top Russian/Chinese officials b/c of course, they would want him to explain "his shit," as you call it. Our gov is interested in what Snowden learned about them, I would think.

[MADem]

119. He knows nothing about them. His "lawyer" is a former KGB upper echelon operative who is a friend

of Putin--he talks to that guy. He doesn't meet with or have lunch with or call up and chat with, or text Putin. His movements and actions are entirely controlled.

Snowden is nothing more than a useful tool. Once he unloaded all his goodies, he has no utility save as a propaganda icon.

His Chinese contact in Hong Kong was either the SCMP reporter or someone on her crew, or more likely whoever from the host nation the Russians allowed into the Russian Consulate, where Snowden was actually hiding out while pretending to be at the Mira Hotel.

Or maybe, just maybe--since the Chinese are so good at cracking stuff--the Russians traded material for expertise.

[JDPriestly]

33. I'm grateful to Edward Snowden for having revealed the unAmerican, unsonstitutional

(in my opinion) texts of the FISA courts orders.

It is appalling that Americans, the descendants of patriots who fought the British for violating the privacy and imposing surveillance on colonial Americans, now so readily give up our right under the Fourth Amendment for a subpoena based on probable cause and identifying specifically what is to be searched.

The watering down of our Fourth Amendment by our Congress and our Supreme Court is the equivalent of stomping on a copy of the Constitution, tearing it up and spitting on the pieces then flushing them down the toilet.

And all those who assist in the surveillance of American citizens should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. They should not call themselves Americans, but rather should acknowledge that had they lived at the time of the American Revolution, they would have sided with the British.

The Fourth Amendment is a slightly revised version of a provision in the Massachusetts Constitution written by John Adams.

The Fourth Amendment (Amendment IV) to the United States Constitution is the part of the Bill of Rights that prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures and requires any warrant to be judicially sanctioned and supported by probable cause. It was adopted in response to the abuse of the writ of assistance, a type of general search warrant issued by the British government and a major source of tension in pre-Revolutionary America. The Fourth Amendment was introduced in Congress in 1789 by James Madison, along with the other amendments in the Bill of Rights, in response to Anti-Federalist objections to the new Constitution. Congress submitted the amendment to the states on September 28, 1789. By December 15, 1791, the necessary three-quarters of the states had ratified it. On March 1, 1792, Secretary of State Thomas Jefferson announced the adoption of the amendment.

. . . .

Article XIV of the Massachusetts Declaration of Rights, written by John Adams and enacted in 1780 as part of the Massachusetts Constitution, added the requirement that all searches must be "reasonable" and served as another basis for the language of the Fourth Amendment:[14]

Every subject has a right to be secure from all unreasonable searches, and seizures of his person, his houses, his papers, and all his possessions. All warrants, therefore, are contrary to this right, if the cause or foundation of them be not previously supported by oath or affirmation; and if the order in the warrant to a civil officer, to make search in suspected places, or to arrest one or more suspected persons, or to seize their property, be not accompanied with a special designation of the persons or objects of search, arrest, or seizure: and no warrant ought to be issued but in cases, and with the formalities, prescribed by the laws.[15]

. . . .

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Our Fourth Amendment:


Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/fourth_amendment

Shame on those who defile it daily by reading our e-mails and listening in or registering our phone calls.

Don't call yourselves patriots because you aren't if you do that kind of work.

My you is intended for those who actually listen in to Americans and read our private correspondence, not to DUers who merely see nothing wrong with those actions.

I am very emotional about this because I lived in Europe while the STASI was still intimidating, frightening and actually listening in to and harming East Germans.

Edward Snowden was, in my opinion, and I feel this deeply based on the history of our country and of Eastern Europe, very courageous and is to be thanked for his bringing the surveillance program of our government to our attention.

Obama is a good man, and our country is at its foundation a good place with a lot of political freedom. But we should not take our freedom from surveillance for granted, and many comments on this thread suggest to me that some DUers do not understand just how the NSA surveillance could be used to silence dissent in our country.

Our Bill of Rights is like a sweater, knit carefully so as to fit and to be worn for a long time. Cut one thread and the entire sweater can fall apart and be of little use to anyone.

[grasswire]

50. Nietzsche says it for me:

"Beware those in whom the urge to punish is strong."

That means authoritarian politicians and officials, and authoritarians in your personal life, and authoritarians online.

Beware.

[senz]

58. +1000

Have been looking for that quote and the author of it, for ages. Thanks for posting it, grasswire.

And I agree, authoritarians of any stripe suck mightily. Lowest of the low, afaic.

[grasswire]

59. Nietzsche also said my other favorite quote

"Without music, life would be a mistake."

[senz]

71. lol, that's so sweet.

The little I know of Nietzsche has made me consider him intellectually brutal, so these quotes surprise me. Thanks again!

[plus5mace]

121. Nietzsche is widely misunderstood.

There's a compelling paper arguing his Übermensch concept is best personified by Pippi Longstocking rather than any kind of grim super soldier.

[brush]

72. Now Snowden must face the music

If he had limited his revelations to domestic spying he would deservedly be the hero so many, IMO, mistakenly call him.

He went too far and revealed details of his own country's covert, international operations.

That's not heroic, it's seditious.

[wordpix]

97. give some examples & a link

I'm not familiar with exactly what it was he leaked except for embarrassing things said by and about certain politicians.

[wordpix]

96. wonderful!

[wordpix]

95. good quote

[840high]

129. ...+1

[Rose77]

87. thank you. other nations are helping him

people are getting the truth out but honestly I thought everyone knew by now that the whistleblowers are NOT the fucking criminals!

[freebrew]

139. Apparently, not on DU...

after reading this thread, I want to shower.

Really. Lots of statements w/o any facts.
Many here seem to know Snowden's motives. No facts.
Since when did progressives want a secret government?
There should be NO secrets from the people, we ARE the government.

Seems like many have a grudge w/Greenwald and transfer the hate to Snowden.

You think he'd get a deal as good as Betray Us?
Probably not.

[Darb]

179. Revealed? I think you knew.

I most certainly did. It started a long time ago. Accelerated profoundly after 9/11 by the Patriot Act, which, of course, legalized a great deal of it. Obama was obeying the law, Bush wasn't even bothering to do that. I am sure that you remember the Bush admin being exposed for not even going to the FISA court? I do.

I was not surprised at all and you shouldn't have been either.

Snowden is no hero to me, sorry. "Teabagger" seems closer to the mark, a useful idiot.

[JDPriestly]

180. I did not realize the lawless extent of it until I saw the FISA court's order to Verizon.

I was working very hard during the Bush administration and, like most Americans, really did not pay much attention.

I now realize that we were doing this sort of thing for many years.

[onehandle]

35. Sounds like somebody's getting tired of Putinland. nt

[MADem]

41. There's an embargo. Beet and potato soup for you, comrade~no PRINGLES~no HOT POCKETS!!! nt

[senz]

49. I hope he doesn't come back because he would not stand a chance here.

Too many rightwing a-holes who consider him a traitor and would love to see him put to death or spend the rest of his life in one of our lovely prisons. I hope he has knowledgeable friends giving him good advice. He's better off in Russia. Too bad he was unable to reach Ecuador before the U.S. revoked his passport.

[Eric J in MN]

105. Yes, he shouldn't return to a trial.

Snowden should only return if he's given a plea deal he finds acceptable.

The Espionage Act has no exception for whistle-blowing. If there were a trial, the judge would stop him from explaining his motives to the jury on the grounds of irrelevance.

The Espionage Act is a rotten law, and one can't get a fair trial under a rotten law.

[Galraedia]

53. When is Snowden's 15-minutes of fame up?

He didn't expose anything about domestic spying that we didn't already know and that wasn't already part of the Patriot Act. And I'd be willing to give him a free pass if he just stopped there. However, he exposed information about U.S. surveillance on foreign nations while fleeing to multiple foreign countries with this information. He's no hero, he's a crazy bastard with no understanding of how the world works playing Carmen Sandiego. If it's so bad in Russia that he'd rather be in a U.S. prison, perhaps he should stay there.

[Tarheel_Dem]

55. ^^^^ THIS ^^^^

[cstanleytech]

62. Oh please, he has as much of a chance of being tortured as I do of winning the powerball.

Snowden needs to just get one simple agreement which is that they will not seek the death penalty and then he should turn himself in and let a jury decide if he should be sent to prison.

[Eric J in MN]

93. Solitary is torture.

Daniel Ellsberg (who revealed The Pentagon Papers):

Snowden would come back home to a jail cell – and not just an ordinary cell-block but isolation in solitary confinement, not just for months like Chelsea Manning but for the rest of his sentence, and probably the rest of his life. His legal adviser, Ben Wizner, told me that he estimates Snowden's chance of being allowed out on bail as zero. (I was out on bond, speaking against the Vietnam war, the whole 23 months I was under indictment).

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/30/daniel-ellsberg-snowden-fair-trial-kerry-espionage-act

[cstanleytech]

98. Fine then get an agreement that there will be no solitary as long as he obeys the rules.

As for bail, ya he wont get that since he is a flight risk but he had to have known that when he ran because if anything he isnt stupid.

[OilemFirchen]

70. Prison? Mon dieu!

"Perhaps nobody on the planet knows more about intelligence protocol than Edward Snowden."

Would we imprison Einstein? Salk? Fabio?

Au contraire, I should think!

[brush]

74. I think he thought he knew more than he did

At 29 you say he knows more than anyone about intelligence protocol than anyone on the planet?

I mean come on, he was lowly IT grunt with a lot of hubris who absconded with files who has been played by Greenwald and even more by Putin.

If he knew so much he wouldn't be where he is.

[OilemFirchen]

78. To be clear:

I didn't say that. It was Ha Ha Goodman.

[bemildred]

83. He means the Internet Protocol(IP), he doesn't know what he is talking about.

Snowden is very well educated about IP, but that's not all that uncommon these days.

[brush]

84. Oh, sorry.

[Thinkingabout]

82. With the evidence they have against him, yes he would.

[goldent]

91. Snowden has no bargaining leverage

I think people around Snowden were telling him he would become a hero in America, and the opposite has turned out to be the case. He has leaked everything he had so he has no leverage with that either.

This is all obvious to the Justice dept and they will just wait him out - time is working against Snowden.

[wordpix]

99. he has some knowledge of Russia/China officialdom now

Maybe that's worth something to our gov

[Eric J in MN]

102. Edward Snowden became a hero to some Americans and not others.

To me, Edward Snowden is a hero.

[restorefreedom]

114. i am pretty surprised

at the backlash against him. i would have expected more support for him here.

[brush]

140. There is support for his domestic spying revelations but not for revealing . . .

details of his own country's covert, international operations.

He went too far and went from being heroic to seditious.

[restorefreedom]

144. as a fan of transparency

i tend to not want to be too harsh on him, esp becsuse he revealed important info on this country.

but he did a bit of an ooopsie with some of the foreign intel

Otoh, i am not a big fan of us spying on other nations either

[brush]

147. Spying is probably the world's second oldest profession

I don't think the rest of the nations in the world are going to stop if we do so we would be at a big disadvantage to do that, IMO.

Too bad Snowden didn't stop at the domestic spying revelations, which is good thing.

[restorefreedom]

149. he is young

it doesn't give him a pass, but sometimes young enthusiasm can get a little crazy. he may have thought he was doing the right thing.

i don't believe he is a traitor at heart.

[ancianita]

111. Nope. No leverage at all. This government doesn't care about him or any use it could make of him.

[Agnosticsherbet]

101. After going to an elightened and feedom loving Russia led by Putin, why would he want to come back.

He made his bed.

[Historic NY]

103. I guess no one gives a crap any more Eddie.

[ancianita]

109. He's making a big mistake to trust this government to keep its end of any plea deal. The U.S.

government has betrayed every First Nations treaty and any other deals that serve its capitalist, global interests.

They'd put him in the hole and only drag him out to do some cyber protection and/or insurgency work for them, at best. They'd milk him dry then suicide him.

[cstanleytech]

125. He hasnt made any deal ancianita and I doubt he will, this sounds like yet

more grandstanding on his part.

[joshcryer]

136. No he wouldn't.

[riderinthestorm]

141. Lol, well this certainly has thrown the anti-Snowden crowd for a loop!

[Blue_Tires]

146. Bull fuckin' shit

If he wants to turn himself in and get his sentence out of the way early, he knows where to go...Snowflake doesn't get to 'demand' the terms of his own plea deal -- Sorry, Snowdenistas

So AFAIC, he can keep his punk ass in Moscow for the rest of his natural life.

Thank you, good night

[treestar]

155. Taking a page from Julian

who thinks he should be able to dictate to Sweden how they proceed in their legal system.

He hadn't gotten any attention in a while, and makes an outburst every once in a while, again like Julian.

[DCBob]

171. LOL... Snowy must not have anymore juicy documents to sell.

Loser.

[Rose77]

175. heres to the crazy ones

“... The misfits. The rebels. The troublemakers. The round pegs in the square holes. The ones who see things differently. They're not fond of rules. And they have no respect for the status quo. You can quote them, disagree with them, glorify or vilify them. About the only thing you can't do is ignore them. Because they change things. They push the human race forward. And while some may see them as the crazy ones, we see genius. Because the people who are crazy enough to think they can change the world, are the ones who do.”
― Rob Siltanen