Documents Show Cops Believed Trayvon Martin Killing Was ‘Ultimately Avoidable’

[kpete]

Source: Talking Points Memo

The killing of Trayvon Martin was “ultimately avoidable” if George Zimmerman had just stayed in his vehicle instead of pursuing the unarmed teen, Florida police investigators concluded in one of a series of reports on the case released late Thursday.

Instead, the Sanford Police Department investigators wrote, Zimmerman confronted the teen, ended up in a struggle and eventually shot him in the chest. In the end, Martin was dead and police were recommending the neighborhood watchman be brought up on a criminal charge of manslaughter.

The conclusions came to light on Thursday as part of a huge release of evidence by the Florida prosecutors who later performed their own investigation and charged Zimmerman with the more serious crime of second-degree murder. Totaling 183 pages, the heavily redacted documents include police narratives, witness interviews, autopsy reports and photos of Zimmerman bloodied after the Feb. 26 struggle.

“The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman,” the report said, “if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialogue in an effort to dispel each party’s concern. There is no indication that Trayvon Martin was involved in any criminal activity at the time of the encounter.”

Read more: http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/05/trayvon_martin_unavoidable_documents_george_zimmerman.php?ref=fpnewsfeed

[teddy51]

1. I think the charge of Second Degree murder is accurate. If Zimmerman had listened to the 911

operator who told him that "we don't need you to do that" Trayvon would be alive today.

[Neue Regel]

6. Yes, people should always take the advice of 911 dispatchers

Last edited Fri May 18, 2012, 07:24 PM - Edit history (1)

http://www.denverpost.com/breakingnews/ci_20311925/denver-911-operator-mishandled-road-rage-call-after

The operator told them to return to Denver, find a safe spot to park and wait for police. One of Reat's brothers, who was driving the Dodge Charger, was on a cellphone talking to the operator.

"He told the dispatcher that it isn't safe there," Dengpathot said. "We don't want to go there, that is where the problem happened, they were threatening us with a gun."

But after a few moments, "they finally submitted to the (operator's) authority" and returned to West 29th Avenue, just east of Sheridan Boulevard, within Denver's border, Dengpathot said. They got out of the car and waited and then saw the red Jeep coming toward them.

"Jimma yelled out, 'Here comes those guys and they've got a gun,' " Dengpathot said. "Then four of them got out and one of them started firing."

[Uncle Joe]

10. You can find mistakes or errors from any profession under the sun, but Florida isn't Denver

Zimmerman had a gun while Martin had a soft drink and some Skittles.

Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, not the other way around.

The circumstances are entirely different.

[Lex]

11. Clearly George Zimmerman SHOULD HAVE. That is the point.

Everything else is noise.

[BootinUp]

12. anectdotal

this says next to nothing about 911 operators as a whole. It does point out the need for proper training, oversight, etc.

[sabrina 1]

32. And how does that in any way relate to what happened in the Zimmerman case?

In fact, it is the exact opposite of what happened. In the Zimmerman case he was told to NOT get involved in a dangerous situation, while in your case, the exact opposite advice was given.

[ck4829]

33. What's the point of 911 if people aren't going to listen to them?

[Blue_Tires]

35. Oh, god...

The whole fucking point of it is ZIMMERMAN HAD NO REASON OR JUSTIFICATION TO CALL 911 AND FOLLOW MARTIN IN THE FIRST PLACE

Of course being the master detective that he is, Zimmerman was clearly able to determine in the 911 call:

1. Martin was the person or with a group of persons responsible for a rash of burglaries
2. Martin was armed
3. Martin was under the influence of drugs

...All from seeing him walk down the sidewalk...

[deutsey]

36. Yeah, this is comparable because it's obvious that Trayvon would've smashed the window

of Zimmerman's vehicle and climbed inside to attack him if Zimmerman had listened to the dispatcher.

[boppers]

53. They ignored the operator, and got shot.

"The operator told them to return to Denver, find a safe spot to park and wait for police."

[naaman fletcher]

40. the cops had it right

What we have here is another "rodney king" where the DA overcharging is going to lead to a acquittal.

In Rodney King, the DA charged them with attempted murder. It was easy for the cops to point out that if they wanted to kill him, they could have. So they were acquitted, and the rest is history.

Zimmerman is going to be acquitted of 2nd degree murder. The picture of him that came out (it seems today) of the blood on the back of his head is going to be enough reasonable doubt.

He should have been charged with manslaughter, as the cops recomended.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

2. Sounds actually pretty reasonable

However it may not be legally sufficient for a conviction and Zimmerman himself is effectively civil judgement proof due to lack of wealth and living in Florida.

[onehandle]

4. Ah, yes. Florida is an NRA paradise. Lots of fear, stupidity, racism, and poverty.

Gun fanatics would like that paradise from coast to coast.

Right, 'Professor?'

[ProgressiveProfessor]

24. I was stating that the police report was reasonable in its conclusion

Your post would lead one to believe that you disagree with it and think Zimmerman was justified

[Boabab]

20. Lack of wealth?

You do know that so he's collected at least $250,00 from "supporters", right? That was reported weeks ago, so the number may be higher now.

Would his ascending to millionaire status still make him "indigent"?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

25. IIRC he wasn't making much in the way of income and his house was upside down.

I had forgotten about the fund raising. However, it is probably not in his name but a committee of some sort to keep it judgement proof.

[crunch60]

41. Anyway it turns out, I think Zimmerman's life is pretty much toast, he will be

constantly looking over his shoulders if he gets out of this, and I am sure there will be lawsuits in the future against him and his family. Hmmm, maybe Peru would be a good destination of choice.

[DLine]

3. Got my right wing hat on. The pro zimmerman side will claim he wasn't ordered not to follow...

... it was more of a suggestion "you don't need to do that".

[MattBaggins]

5. Yet Trayvon was supposed to follow every request of Zimmerman

[BootinUp]

13. Why would you put a right wing hat on?

[DLine]

39. Because I look dashing with a tri corner.

[BootinUp]

43. If you have any photos...

feel free to post them lol.

[boppers]

54. Well played, sir. eom

[Grassy Knoll]

7. From The pictures posted on Huffpo...

this guy got his ass kicked good, so he shot him for losing. IMO

[dougg]

8. Trayvon Martin should be a NRA hero.

Trayvon Martin should be a NRA hero.

An unarmed teenager was attacked by an armed assailant who had no credible reason to stalk him and had been told by 911 to keep away.

The latest claim is that the killer had received some lumps.

If so, the victim attempted to protect himself but could not overcome the gun wielding aggressor.

The NRA should be proclaiming to the heavens the right of victim Trayvon Martin to carry a weapon to defend himself.

[Boabab]

21. Obviously, Trayvon was the wrong color. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Too many state and federal laws prohibit.

I personally believe, had Mr. Martin won the fight, and Zimmerman had died, Trayvon SHOULD have been protected under SYG based on the events that led up to the confrontation, and the public info we have from the witnesses.

There is no current agenda to allow sub-18 year olds to carry pistols. In fact, there is very little enthusiasm to change the laws to allow sub-21 year olds to carry pistols.

[csziggy]

46. Look at who in Florida has failed to get SYG immunity

The mother who was beaten by her abusive husband, shot a warning shot into the ceiling and was convicted and sent to prison for 'endangering' her children. The woman who was attacked by a man who she had allowed to live rent free in a trailer she owned and who took three years to be cleared of murder charges. Both were black.

Even if Trayvon had been old enough to have a concealed carry permit and had shot Zimmerman in self defense, the chances are he would have been shot by police when they arrived on the scene, simply because he was a young black man with a weapon on the scene of a shooting.

[Uncle Joe]

9. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, kpete.

[Zoeisright]

14. Doh!!

Who doesn't know that?

[grok]

15. This statement is confusing

It implies first that Zimmerman should not have followed. Then in the same breath it makes acceptable that Zimmerman could have identified himself to Trayvon to dispel his fears.. This implies following or getting close enough to do so.

Looks like the Sanford police/prosecution wants it both ways. The defense is going to make mincemeat of this.

[intheflow]

16. The statement is clear.

It says he should have stayed in the car, or conversely (read: if not staying in the car), try to initiate a civil discussion. That's giving two possible scenarios in which neither young Martin nor Zimmerman would have been injured. What's so freaking confusing about that?

[d06204]

17. Agreed

Seems pretty clear to me...

[csziggy]

47. Zimmerman claimed Trayvon Martin 'circled' his vehicle while Zimmerman was on the phone

If at that point, Zimmerman had opened his window and said, "Hi, I'm neighborhood watch, do you need any help?" Martin could have told him that he was a guest in the neighborhood. Zimmerman then would not have had any excuse to follow and any suspicions should have been set aside.

Since Zimmerman was on the phone to SPD at that point, if Martin had been aggressive, police would have been on the way immediately. That was BEFORE Zimmerman got out of his vehicle to follow, BEFORE the SPD dispatcher told him he did not 'need' to follow.

Even if Martin had been one of the people who had been committing burglaries in the neighborhood, having someone see them and putting them on notice by talking to them would have frightened them away from committing a crime that night. That would have been MUCH more effective in preventing a crime than following someone whose intentions Zimmerman did not know. Very few criminals are willing to break into homes when they know that a neighborhood watch person has had a good look at their face. They would move on to another neighborhood where no one can identify them.

[neohippie]

49. from what Martin's Father was told

Apparently the Police detective told Tracy Martin, that his son went up to the car and asked Zimmerman if he was following him and at that time, Zimmerman said NO and then rolled up the window, since this exchange is not heard on the 911 call one can only assume that it happened prior to his calling 911 and before he got out of his vehicle and pursued him on foot.

[csziggy]

50. The timeframe for tha scenario just does not work

Between the time on the video at the 7-Eleven, the time that Zimmerman called in to SPD, the time for the calls from Martin's girlfriend, the times for the 911 call with the screams and the gunshot, there was no time that Martin could have walked up to Zimmerman's vehicle and talked to him.

The exchange would have been heard by the SPD dispatcher or by Martin's girlfriend. Neither report that.

And if somehow the times I have for all those events are wrong and Martin HAD walked up to Zimmerman's vehicle, why would Zimmerman have denied following Martin? The clear choice would have been for Zimmerman to say, "Yes, I am following you. I'm in the neighborhood watch and there have been break-ins in the neighborhood. I was concerned that you might have been a burglar. Can I help you?"

Zimmerman had been cagey about identifying himself and giving his address in previous calls to SPD, even when he was reporting suspicious people and incidents. I think he was paranoid and wanted to avoid being connected to his own numerous calls to police. At the same time, he wanted to be in control of the situation. He chose the wrong way to take control, when a few civil sentences would have made the difference.

[yardwork]

52. One can assume that Zimmerman made that up.

[fingrinn]

18. Interesting how FAUX news do not allow comments on this story

Heres another possible scenario, GZ follows TM who expresses his concerns to his girlfriend and decides to confront GZ and asks why he is being followed.
GZ calls TM a fcuking **** and pushes TM to the ground (assault) TM defends himself from a documented racist and violent person who them shoots him when finally someone fights back.

If this was the case then
CASE CLOSED: GUILTY.

[teewrex]

19. I think the DA probably should have gone with Manslaughter

it would be easier to sell. 2nd degree might be harder to convict on.

[Boabab]

22. Manslaughter should be a viable option for the jury. nt

[ProgressiveProfessor]

26. IIRC that is automatic in FL

[AtheistCrusader]

28. The affadavit for the charges doesn't state so.

Didn't find any info on this rooting around in their laws. Can you source that, if you can recall where you heard that?

They didn't do that in the Casey Anthony trial. Though, they did go for capital murder, maybe murder 2 has a specific statute that allows the jury to downgrade it.

But I can't find it.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

37. I want to remember it was discussed here

A google search for "Florida lesser included" turned up a number of links including this one:
www.floridasupremecourt.org/jury.../schedlesserincludoffens.rtf

[csziggy]

48. The Casey Anthony jury had the option of lesser charges

IMO I don't think they listened to the judge's instructions or read their jury instructions. They seemed to think they could only opt for the maximum charges, which was not what their instructions read.

From the jury instructions:

INTRODUCTION TO HOMICIDE

In this case, Casey Marie Anthony is accused of Murder in the First Degree, Aggravated Child Abuse, Aggravated Manslaughter of a Child, and four counts of Providing False Information to a Law Enforcement Officer.

Murder in the First Degree includes the lesser crimes of Murder in the Second Degree, Manslaughter and Third Degree Felony Murder, all of which are unlawful.


<SNIP>
WHEN THERE ARE LESSER INCLUDED CRIMES

In considering the evidence, you should consider the possibility that although the evidence may not convince you that the defendant committed the main crimes of which she is accused, there may be evidence that she committed other acts that would constitute a lesser included crime.

Therefore, if you decide that the main accusation has not been proved beyond a reasonable doubt, you will next need to decide if the defendant is guilty of any lesser included crime. The lesser crimes indicated in the definition of First Degree Murder are: Second Degree Murder, Manslaughter or Third Degree Felony Murder. The lesser crime indicated in the definition of Aggravated Child Abuse is Child Abuse.

<SNIP>
VERDICT

You may find the defendant guilty as charged in the indictment or guilty of such lesser included crime as the evidence may justify or not guilty.

If you return a verdict of guilty, it should be for the highest offense which has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If you find that no offense has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt, then, of course, your verdict must be not guilty.

Only one verdict may be returned as to each crime charged. This verdict must be unanimous, that is, all of you must agree to the same verdict. The verdict must be in writing and for your convenience the necessary forms of verdict have been prepared for you. They are as follows:

More: http://insession.blogs.cnn.com/2011/07/04/jury-instructions-in-the-casey-anthony-trial/

[FedUpWithIt All]

23. Wouldn't Zimmerman be absolutely covered in Trayvon's blood if he had been lying beneath him

when he was shot? This has bothered me the most since i first read of this. Imagining a teen straddling a man carrying a gun and the gun being expelled into the straddler's chest and it would seem that there would be a significant amount of blood covering the straddled gun holder.

Am i wrong here?

[ProgressiveProfessor]

27. Depends

When you shoot someone it is not always a geyser of blood.

[madokie]

30. I would think shot in the heart there would be

[FedUpWithIt All]

31. But there would be some type of spray. There is a full body shot at this link

http://dcist.com/2012/05/evidence_made_public_in_trayvon_mar.php#photo-1

He looks spotless. Hard to believe he was sitting beneath a "man" (boy in this case) he just shot.

Here are some more questions...Where is the blood on Zimmerman's shirt from his, supposed, badly broken nose? After being shot, if Trayvon was sitting atop Zimmerman, his body probably would have done one of two things, fell forward onto Zimmerman's chest or leaned back and to the side. If forward, where is the blood from the injury? If back and to the side, how did Trayvon's body end up face down, with his arms beneath him, and Zimmerman bent over him him, only moments after the shot was fired (according to witness testimony..."Seconds later, they dashed out to find a boy face down on the ground and a man standing over him, a foot on each side of the body on the ground, with his hands pinning the shooting victim down.&quot

[Ian David]

34. "You don't need to do that" is a lot different from, "Do NOT do that." n/t

[intheflow]

42. I agree the dispatcher should have been more precise in her wording.

However, having lived in the Deep South, I know that people habitually talk in a much more nuanced manner. "You don't need to do that" is a pleasant way of saying "Don't do that." I believe that was the dispatcher's meaning within the context of their conversation.

Still, I think this dispatcher needs some training in ethnocentric power structures and learn ways to overcome her linguistic culture in the course of her work.

[teknomanzer]

51. "...we don't need you to do that," is the more precise wording.

To which Zimmerman responds, "Okay."

He acknowledged what the dispatcher was telling him and disregarded it anyway.

[slackmaster]

38. Yes, I agree with that.

[Mayflower1]

44. Thank you, Capt. Obvious

[neohippie]

45. Apparently there were two confrontations...

I had read early on, in this case, that when the police gave Trayvon's father, the details of how his son was shot, they told him that there were two instances where Trayvon and Zimmerman spoke, the first time, Martin, asked Zimmerman if he was following him and Zimmerman told him no, and then later there was another confrontation...

I don't know if the news story that I had read that in was accurate, but apparently Zimmerman early on had a chance to identify himself and possibly reduce the tension in the situation, but maybe he didn't want Martin to know that he was trying to catch him doing something illegal, instead of having nothing on him other than his suspicions?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/tracy-martin-recounts-police-version-of-son-trayvons-death/2012/03/28/gIQA6MKhhS_story.html


Because, he lost the opportunity to defuse the situation by explaining what was going, on, he escalated Martin's sense of fear, when he continued to follow him in the vehicle and then pursued him on foot, this is why the shooting was considered avoidable by the local police. Also, Zimmerman failed to inform the 911 operator that there had already been a confrontation, where he lied to the boy about following him.