Turkey’s religious body says engaged couples should not hold hands
Source: Hurriyet Daily News
The Directorate of Religious Affairs (Diyanet), Turkeys top religious body, has stated that engaged couples should not hold hands or spend time alone together during their engagement period.
In this period, it is not inconvenient for couples to meet and talk to get to know each other, if their privacy is considered. However, there could be undesired incidents with or without their families knowledge
such as flirting, cohabitating or being alone [with one another]. This encourages gossip and holding hands, which Islam does not allow, the Diyanet said, responding to a public question.
It urged couples to fulfil their engagement period in line with Islamic norms, encouraging couples not to have a religious marriage unless a civil marriage had been decided upon.
The Diyanet - which is one of Turkeys best funded state institutions, largely provided for by public taxation - has previously made headlines with controversial rulings on the usage of toilet paper and cleaning products containing alcohol.
Read more: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/turkeys-religious-body-says-engaged-couples-should-not-hold-hands.aspx?pageID=238&nID=93379&NewsCatID=393
hobbit709
(41,694 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,867 posts)Headline, that would be accurate:
"Fundamentalist Bob Jones University forbids physical contact (including holding hands) on campus."
Of course, they don't try to enforce their views on people off-campus, but only because they can't.
The physical contact prohibition was strengthened when they were threatened with losing their tax exempt status years ago because they wouldn't admit black students. So, they said they would take the colored kids, but they couldn't touch the white kids.
Extra credit: anyone want to guess who represents the district that includes the Bob Jones campus?
Everyone's favorite mutant Tea Bagger, Trey "Benghazi" Gowdy.
trillion
(1,859 posts)Every country has these insane backwards right wingers.
BlueJazz
(25,348 posts)Marrah_G
(28,581 posts)CBGLuthier
(12,723 posts)There is a reason they believe in only eating with one hand. Water and the off-hand are reserved for cleansing.
trillion
(1,859 posts)rpannier
(24,328 posts)She and her husband were doing research in a rather remote area in the Pacific Islands and there were cultures where using the left hand to eat was a faux pas because they also wiped with the left hand
Art_from_Ark
(27,247 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)heard of hand soap?
SCantiGOP
(13,867 posts)They are warned to use only the right hand if eating with Muslims, especially if the hosts are more rural and fundamentalist. Using the left hand would not only make you look bad, it would be considered a major insult to whoever has offered you the food.
olddad56
(5,732 posts)SCantiGOP
(13,867 posts)in the Middle Ages, they considered being left-handed a possible mark of the devil, so
your parents beat that out of you.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Wed Jan 6, 2016, 12:14 AM - Edit history (5)
The ancient Romans dislike of the left brought with it the Latin word for evil, sinister, which also meant left.
Left was consider bad luck that to start even a walk with the left foot was considered bad luck. This became so ingrained that when Frederick the Great of Prussia in the mid 1700s wanted to speed up his army by forcing them to THINK of what was the next step to take forced them to start with their left foot for it was so out of the ordinarily by then. All armies followed what Frederick the Great did, so all soldiers today do commands on their left foot and have forgotten it was to differentiate marching from walking.
Just pointing out how bad doing anything with your LEFT was prior to the mid 1900s.
People even traveled on their left, which is still the norm in England and many other island nations. The Germans started the move to travel on the right do to adopting teams of horses (horses side by side) instead of in tandem (horses in line ahead or behind each other). Given people mount horses on the horse's left, in a team the lead horse is also on the left. When two teams of horses meet each other on a road, the lead horses of each team had two other horses between them when passing on the left, but where right next to each other when passing on the right. Fir this reason passing on the right became the norm in Germany by 1600 and from Germany spread to the rest of Europe, except England, by 1700. In the 1700, do to German migration to America, passing on the right became the norm in America by 1750.
Notice this was to adapt mounting a horse on the left to teams of horses. We mount horses on the horse's left for we carried swords on our left to better draw them with our right hands. A sword on the left did not have to be carried across a horse's back if you mount the horse on the horse's left.
Women were also expected to stand on their husband's left. Three feet to his left and three feet behind him. Now this sounds sexist but there was a reason for it. Most men are right handed. In a tight group it is easier if everyone uses the same arm, thus right handedness was favored for it covered over 90% of men.
Women on their man's left was also the result of most men being right handed. I would like to say this is related to swords, but women being on behind and to the left pre-existed the invention of bronze and copper is to soft to make a sword out of. Thus this pattern reflected the use of spears as pikes or quarter-staffs.
A man with a quarter staff in his right arm could defend himself from attacks from all directions except to his left rear. Attacks from his front he could see and defend himself from. Attacks from his right or left he could see and defend himself from. An attack from his rear right he could react to be dripping his staff and using its rear against an attacker. This was NOT possible if the attack was from his left rear. Thus his woman stool that position. Any attack on him from his left rear had to go through her, and she could delay any such attack long enough for him to react to it. In that position she could also warn him about any attack from his rear and rear right and give him the few seconds he would need to react to such an attack.
Remember I am talking about the time where most fights involved physical muscle. In such fights men are better. This did not mean women were just standing around when a fight broke out. In many cultures women were the archers while the men did the hand to hand combat. The ancient Sarmatians of the Black Sea region (present day Ukraine). These were an Iranian speaking group, who were known to have the best horses of the ancient world (these are believed to be the ancestors of the Arabian horse, pre Mohammad the Arabs were known to hate horses, Mohammad changed that).
The Sarmatians were known to the Ancient Greeks as the people whose "A Maiden could not marry till she killed three men in combat". Sarmatians were known horse archers, and would send their women to shoot arrows into their enemy's formations and then ride away hoping those who their had just attacked would chase them. If their did the women would ride right by the men sitting in ambush with lances and more arrows. Thus the women perform what was later called "Light Cavalry" duties, scouting, harassing the enemy, gathering fodder and food for the troops and joining behind any heavy cavalry charge. "Heavy Cavalry" is the term for horse used to charge enemy foot and horse soldiers to break up those formations and scatter them. Heavy Cavalry is the classic knight charge, the saber mounted horse charge etc. They can be used as light Cavalry but generally kept back to be at full strength when a charge is called for.
More on the Sarmatians
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians
Please do NOT confuse them with the Samaritans of the bible, a completely different group of people, living in Palestine NOT the Black Sea Area. I mention them for the spelling is close:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samaritans
One branch of the Sarmatians survived till the fifth century, these were the Alans of the late Roman Empire:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans
Both the Alans and Sarmatians were absorbed by the Slavs after about 500, as the Slavs moved into former Sarmatian territory with the heavy plow. The Heavy plow transformed previous pasture only land to farm land and farmland can support a much higher level of population not only of people but horses. This preexisting Sarmatian tradition along with the Slavic tradition of a female pagan "King" of the gods (transformed into a worship of Mary according to Protestant sources), women in Slavic countries tend to have more power (but not necessary more "Rights" then women in western countries.
The tactics of the Ancient Sarmatians were extremely effective on the Steppes (and remain the dominate tactic on the Steppes till Cannon Was introduced by Ivan the Terrible and even after that date was still effective on the Steppes till the mid 1800s when firearms finally caught up with bows in term of effective volume fire).
These tactics were so effective that the heavy cavalry (male) formation was adopted by the late Roman imperial army around 600 AD. Two lines of Lancers, followed by four lines of archers, followed by one line of more Lancers. The Archers shooting over the head of the Lancers in front of them (and then shooting for volume not accuracy). All the horsemen worn heavy armor and the armor was NOT nly on the men riding the horses, but the horses themselves.
The Roman tactical book of 600 AD does NOT mention harassing by light cavalry, but does mention that harassment of the enemy is important but gives that to males not females (and can be done by horse or foot soldiers).
The Sarmatians seem to have divided the roles of light and heavy cavalry along sex lines. Being pregnant seems NOT to keep women out of combat among the Sarmatians. The Greek legend of the Amazons seems to reflect contacts with the Sarmatians, along with a refusal to accept a culture where men would defer to women in anything outside the home. A good example of this is the Greek story of the Amazons burning off their right breast so their could shoot arrows. This makes no sense for such an act has no effect on a woman's ability to use a bow. On the other hand, a woman having her baby sucking off her Left Breast while she is shooting arrows with her right arms, is something no Ancient Greek could ever accept as possible. Such actions are not only doable but it is THE most likely explanation for the Greek report of Amazons burning their right breasts. I.e. The Greeks saw woman shooting arrows at them, some women with a larger frontage under their scale armor on the woman's left. The enlargement was a baby sucking on the baby's mother left breast while she was shooting arrows with her right arms. Breast feeding a baby while going into combat was beyond any ancient Greeks ability to accept so that the burning off of the breast was a more acceptable explanation then what appears to have actually occurred (i.e. taking a baby into combat, breast feeding that baby while shooting arrows into enemy formations).
In graves of leaders of the Sarmatians, if it is male bows, arrows and swords are found. If the grave is for a female leader only bows and arrows are found. This reflected their tactics, only men did any actual charge, but women joined in and probably lead any harassment of any invading force.
I bring up the Sarmatians to show women did participate in combat, but their deferred any hand to hand combat to men for men are physically stronger (THis recured in Vietnam, women tended to avoid hand to hand combat, leaving that to the men, but did participate in fighting including spinning and other firearms related actions). Thus even the Sarmatians women would be to their men's left and rear in any meeting with potential enemies. With the Sarmatians the women may even be further to the rear but within bow shoot range.
Please note even today the people on the Steppes make a practice of shooting from horseback, and it is something woman participate in, through today the tendency is to fire AK-47s instead of bows.
Thus a woman's place to the rear and left of their man had a strong rationale in the ancient world and in most places in the world till recent centuries when you finally start to see lefties being accepted.
Please note, in formations it is best if all but the ones on the edge go the same way. On the edges it is better to go in the direction of that edge. Thus in formations dominated by right handed people. The formation is better off going to its right. At the same time it is better for the left side to go to its left. In smallest effective formation the number in the formation tends to be around 10. While a modern fire team is around four soldiers, a squad tends to have 10 to 12 soldiers, organized with two fire teams. Such a squad works best with everyone but the man on the left moving right. Thus a good ratio of lefties to righties in most combat formations is about 9 to 1. Thus the modern ratio seems to be 9 to 1 to reflect this combat need in the past. Nine people attacking as one to the unit's right, while one person guarding the left.
This is also true in baseball. Every position (with the possible positions in the outfield), except first base, is better done by a right handed player then a left handed player. The first base is the only position that a left handed player is better at then a right handed player (all other things equal).
Muslims can now use toilet paper: Turkeys top religious authority
Turkeys top religious authority has decreed that Muslims may use toilet paper though water is still preferable for cleansing.
If water cannot be found for cleansing, other cleaning materials can be used. Even though some sources deem paper to be unsuitable as a cleaning material, as it is an apparatus for writing, there is no problem in using toilet paper, the Directorate of Religious Affairs, or Diyanet, said in a statement about the fatwa.
Islamic toilet etiquette, called the Qadaa al-Haajah, contains rules that predate the invention of toilet paper.
http://nypost.com/2015/04/08/muslims-can-now-use-toilet-paper-turkeys-top-religious-authority/
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)Welcome to the 19th century. Maybe they will discover soap soon.
trillion
(1,859 posts)awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)I think- why not just wash your hands.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)freeze some of those products, (mouthwash, hand sanitizes are commonly used) pour off the alcohol.
trillion
(1,859 posts)Seems to me not doing that would cause disease.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Sorry, the "Islamic" means of cleaning after defecating was to use water, it was in the USA where corn cobs and later tiolet paper became the norm. Washing hands after defecating was always the rule in the Arab world but alternatives were known and accepted for Arabia was a desert and thus water was in short supply. Thus, came the practice of using your LEFT hand to clean oneself after defecating and the ban on eating with the LEFT hand.
All the scholars said was tiolet paper was perferred to using one's hands but water is still better.
Not eating with your first finger was the norm in Europe till the adoption of the fork around 900 for the same reason (you used that finger to clean yourself after defecating thus you did not use it while eating). This lead to the old joke of hicks showing their sophistication by NOT using that finger while eating. It was an old joke by 950 AD but had been a comic staple ever since.
another_liberal
(8,821 posts)With high hopes of also becoming a member nation in the European Union.
Just how strategically important is Turkey's control of the Bosphorus and Dardanelles to Western powers! How much of this backwardness and lack of human rights will they tolerate in order to keep an ally who controls access to the Black Sea?
ProfessorGAC
(64,877 posts)Maybe something lost in translation, but it's quite the word salad. Also, really ridiculous.
yellowcanine
(35,694 posts)trillion
(1,859 posts)"Those boundaries, for Jessa and her beau, Ben Seewald, 18, include no holding hands, no kissing, and always having a chaperone (usually one of the Duggars' 10 sons). So how do they show affection? With "side-hugs" when they say hello or goodbye. "Obviously we're saving our first kiss for marriage," Ben said. "It's pretty basic."
Michelle and Jim Bob, who are devout fundamentalist Independent Baptists, also require that their daughters' suitors include them on any text messages. "It's neat to see their conversations," Jim Bob told Today.com."
yellowcanine
(35,694 posts)Having grown up in such a religious community - but my observation was that the most tightly wound groups in terms of sex had some of the higher rates of "shotgun" marriages, date rape and sibling rape so the whole "no hand holding, kissing, etc." stuff seemingly backfired big time.
blackspade
(10,056 posts)Religion, like money, is one of the roots of evil.
awoke_in_2003
(34,582 posts)LibDemAlways
(15,139 posts)family is ok with engaged couples holding hands. No kissing until marriage, though. And chaperones must accompany the couple at all times. Would not have guessed the Turkish religious affairs authorities are stricter than the fundiest of the fundies in the US.
Skittles
(153,122 posts)it's just a matter of degree
Thor_MN
(11,843 posts)Sheer or otherwise...
niyad
(113,086 posts)Seeking Serenity
(2,840 posts)modern Republic of Turkey out of the ashes of once-formidable Ottoman Empire, abolisher of the last caliphate (the caliphs then being the reigning Ottoman sultans), must be doing 400 rpms in his grave.
happyslug
(14,779 posts)Last edited Tue Jan 5, 2016, 07:13 PM - Edit history (2)
Like Hitler, Stalin and Lincoln, it is believed he suffered from syphilis. He had a good reputation while fighting the British in the straits leading to Istanbul, but he was involved with the massacre of the Armenians and the explusions of the Greeks from present day Turkey. Ataturk wanted a Turkey of 100% Turks, thus he was also anti-Kurdish, but spared them for his first choice was to remove the Greeks and Armenians from Turkey. His second choice was to make them Turks instead of Greeks, Armenians or Kurds.
The moslems rejected his conversion of St Sophia from Mosque to a museum, but it was his way of telling everyone he was changing Turkey from a muliti-nationailty empire to a nation state of Turks. Thus he rejected converting St Sophia back to the Church it had been before 1453 and rejected keeping it a Mosque.
Ataturk passed laws restricting who but a Turk could do what in Turkey. His break with the Ottoman was NOT total, he forced the French to make the birthplace of the founder of the Ottoman Empire to be Tourkish territory, even through it is in Syria.
As to his attacks on Islam, it was limited to giving Araturk the maximum amont of power. Ataturk claimed he was following the French practice as to seperation of church and state, but had the Koran translated into Turkish and published by the state. His big achievement was the abolishment of the Caliphate.
The problem was Ataturk wanted the Caliphate abolished NOT to seperate Church from State, but that the Caliphate still held political power do to support of the Caliphate by the people of Turkey AND the rest of the Islamic world. The Caliphate was a rival base of political power inside Turkey, power that Ataturk wanted for himself. Thus the Caliphate was abolished even through that was viewed by many Moslem as an attack on Islam itself.
Moslems had no problem with abolishment of the Sultan, that position had always been seen as a political position and thus within any concept of the separation of church and state. The position of Caliph was religious in nature and its abolishment was seen as an attack on Islam. The abolishment of the Caliphate would be like making the position of Pope illegal. Western people would see such an abolishment not as an act of separating church from state, but an attack on Catholicism. The same with Ataturk's abolishment of the Caliphate. Worse, one of the reason for the success of ISIS is its adoption of the term Caliphate for itself. You do NOT leave positions like thst open, then anyone can grab it. The Communists in Russia found out this was a mistake and under Stalin reestablished the Orthodox Church, including even naming the Patriarch of Moscow, a position abolished by Peter the Great around 1700 (the Orthodox Church under the Tsars after Peter had a committe run the Orthodox Church, that committee was ablished by the Communists during the revolution, but Stalin named a new Patriarch in 1943, so that Hitler give that title to someone NOT under Stalin's control).
Ataturk's abolishment of the Caliphate was a mistake, one the middle east is facing today. All Ataturk had to do is to leave the Caliphate alone and work with it as an independent power within a secular Turkish State, but that also meant sharing power something Ataturk refused to do, even if the Caliph promised to do nothing to oppose secularization of Turkey.
His relations with the Greeks in Greece were good, but inside Turkey that was a different matter. Given Greeks had lived in modern Turkey since before the Turks arrived, that was a huge mistake. The subsequent expulsion of the Greeks is the basis for the bad blood between Turkey and Greece. Same with the surviving Armenians and Kurds. Ataturk adopted an educational policy that everyone had to be a Turk, even if you were not and this has lead to a lot of bad feelings between the Greeks, Armenians and Kurds with the government of Turkey.
As a whole Ataturk was good for Turkey, but the only reason he would be turning in his grave about in regards to ISIS was that Turkey had no real control over it.
Sniffles72
(18 posts)democrats are the way to go