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arendt

(5,078 posts)
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:10 PM Jun 2016

U.S. State Department Officials Call for Strikes Against Syria’s Assad

Source: Wall St. Journal

By Maria Abi-Habib
June 16, 2016 8:05 p.m. ET
37 COMMENTS

BEIRUT—Dozens of State Department officials this week protested against U.S. policy in Syria, signing an internal document that calls for targeted military strikes against the Damascus government and urging regime change as the only way to defeat Islamic State.

The “dissent channel cable” was signed by 51 mid- to high-level State Department officers involved with advising on Syria policy in various capacities, according to an official familiar with the document. The Wall Street Journal reviewed a copy of the cable, which repeatedly calls for “targeted military strikes” against the Syrian government in light of the near-collapse of the cease-fire brokered earlier this year.

The views expressed by the U.S. officials in the cable amount to a scalding internal critique of a longstanding U.S. policy against taking sides in the Syrian war, a policy that has survived even though the regime of President Bashar al-Assad has been repeatedly accused of violating cease-fire agreements and Russian-backed forces have attacked U.S.-trained rebels...

Obama administration officials have expressed concern that attacking the Assad regime could lead to a direct conflict with Russia and Iran.

Read more: http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-state-department-officials-call-for-strikes-against-syrias-assad-1466121933



They really do want World War 3.

NATO exercises right up to the Russian border in countries like Poland and Hungary which are in the proto-fascist stage (Poland is being sanctioned by the EU for its latest suppression of Constitutional government.)

And now, this provocation.

First, the US, France, and Britain all violating Syria's sovereignty by sending Special Forces without permission. Then the neocon contingent of the State Department demands that we bomb Syria.

Does it ever stop? Are they fucking insane?

Thank god Obama is sane on this topic.
126 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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U.S. State Department Officials Call for Strikes Against Syria’s Assad (Original Post) arendt Jun 2016 OP
Can't wait to see what HRC says about this. n/t arendt Jun 2016 #1
She's made herself clear enough JackRiddler Jun 2016 #70
obama is sane on this DonCoquixote Jun 2016 #2
This story indicates that our SOS is full of neolibs and neocons newthinking Jun 2016 #16
State department, not Secretary of State karynnj Jun 2016 #91
These are her people speaking. We'll be at war with Iran and possibly Russia within a year. leveymg Jun 2016 #3
Do you know them by name, or just assumming based on the story? nt arendt Jun 2016 #4
Yes. There are many neocons ensconced permanently at State. leveymg Jun 2016 #9
You're aware that HRC brought in Nuland (a Neocon) and newthinking Jun 2016 #12
This Why I Can't Vote for Her McKim Jun 2016 #48
Ditto. I will not live with the guilt! Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #55
Victoria Nuland channels Cheney. Octafish Jun 2016 #19
Clinton's always said that the Syrian rebels need more guns, more money MisterP Jun 2016 #29
Ms. Powers got a nice award. Octafish Jun 2016 #18
How perfectly appropriate. I'm sure she's earned it. nt leveymg Jun 2016 #20
Big Time. Octafish Jun 2016 #37
And State Dept Humanitarian Affairs shouldn't be confused with Medicines sans Frontiers. leveymg Jun 2016 #46
Bull's Eye on Damascus Octafish Jun 2016 #51
You've seen this Clinton-era DOS email release? "The best way to help Israel . . . leveymg Jun 2016 #84
Nauseating. amandabeech Jun 2016 #107
No doubt. 840high Jun 2016 #34
Putin is looking for a war, but we do not need to start it for him. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #5
We are calling Al Quida "our rebels" arendt Jun 2016 #6
I never said they were good guys. They are rebels, who want a government that acts in their Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #10
They are fundamentalist lunatics who aren't even from there pottedplant Jun 2016 #25
A mass murderer who bombs women and children and used chemical warfare Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #33
In a civil war that other countries pottedplant Jun 2016 #42
The fact that other dictators have committed mass murder of their own peole Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #47
Oh Please, This War is Not about those Familiies! McKim Jun 2016 #49
So oil pipeline bad, bombs and poison gas on Assad's own civilians good? Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #52
The poison gas was debunked long ago. Let's just throw in "Weapons of Mass Destruction" too. newthinking Jun 2016 #58
Bull shit. Assad is mass murderer, slaughtering his own people, and Putin is a gggling Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #62
Just ignore Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and all the Wahabi-ist terrorists arendt Jun 2016 #64
Assad started by murdering peaceful protesters that wanted more say in the government. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #66
You think Assad's government is "legitimate"? ButterflyBlood Jun 2016 #115
Who do you think the majority of Syrians support? pottedplant Jun 2016 #117
Pick up a history book pottedplant Jun 2016 #65
How about sticking the subject and discuss war criminal in Syria. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #67
he has every right to defend his country. pottedplant Jun 2016 #68
He does not have every right to murder his citizens. Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #69
Its a CIVIL war and a PROXY war arendt Jun 2016 #73
Abe Lincoln did not bomb civilians Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #77
you don't get to hijack my thread arendt Jun 2016 #86
Your complete refusal to address Assad's war crimes and murders Agnosticsherbet Jun 2016 #88
Keep banging that shoe on the table. I'm sure someone will listen. n/t arendt Jun 2016 #89
You are basically pushing a pro-war neocon line ... mallard Jun 2016 #122
The poison gas was not debunked no matter what karynnj Jun 2016 #92
Who to believe, Pulitzer Prize winner, or you? Duh. n/t arendt Jun 2016 #104
The Red Line and The Rat Line newthinking Jun 2016 #119
Al Nusra are NOT our guys - they are explicitly not included in the cessation of hostilities karynnj Jun 2016 #14
They are all from the branch of Wahabism which is why they have mixed together newthinking Jun 2016 #15
You ignore that Assad is responsible for the highest numbers of deaths karynnj Jun 2016 #17
Overall, it's still roughly 50/50. No reason to tip the balance leveymg Jun 2016 #21
There are more than 2 factions - unless you lump the rebels considered in the agreement, ISIS and karynnj Jun 2016 #23
ISIS is just al Nusra that mutated out of AQI. It will metastasize again into leveymg Jun 2016 #26
Wrong. Assad and Putin have had success against isis pottedplant Jun 2016 #30
Agree 100%. 840high Jun 2016 #35
Wow, how much power do the Neocons have? Holy moley newthinking Jun 2016 #7
Apparently state department employees can circulate policy proposals and leak them to the press Monk06 Jun 2016 #38
There is a channel set up for dissent on policy karynnj Jun 2016 #93
I am inclined the other way I think Hilary would have these peoples heads on a platter for trying Monk06 Jun 2016 #113
I would suggest that they would not be dissenting from her position karynnj Jun 2016 #114
They are insane. Just as they believe we can win a Nuclear war. newthinking Jun 2016 #8
I'm all for it. Let's start WWIII and get it over with. Ikonoklast Jun 2016 #11
War's what the economy craves. Octafish Jun 2016 #22
George Mason University is a largely commuter school in Northern Virginia located amandabeech Jun 2016 #109
Thank you! Octafish Jun 2016 #112
Regime change makes no sense pottedplant Jun 2016 #13
"It serves the usual suspects to have a destabilized oppressed region." ronnie624 Jun 2016 #24
Thanks for the Bigger Picture McKim Jun 2016 #50
No. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever christx30 Jun 2016 #27
Duck & cover. eom WheelWalker Jun 2016 #28
Where's Kerry in all of this? WhiteTara Jun 2016 #31
Mr Kirby said US Secretary of State John Kerry "values and respects" the device, GeorgeGist Jun 2016 #32
This makes me sick. We 840high Jun 2016 #36
Assuming this is not WSJ being inventive: Fire them all now. nt bemildred Jun 2016 #39
They are protected by civil service. former9thward Jun 2016 #87
That is a bullshit RW talking point seabeckind Jun 2016 #94
BS. former9thward Jun 2016 #95
And you are more informed than someone who wrote the HR memos? seabeckind Jun 2016 #97
OK Bernie, I'll get right on it. former9thward Jun 2016 #98
I didn't figure you had anything. seabeckind Jun 2016 #100
Bernie, who are you choosing for your VP? former9thward Jun 2016 #101
Keep digging. Your chewing gum is in that chicken coop somewhere. seabeckind Jun 2016 #102
You can remove the political patronage SES who serve at the pleasure of the President. 24601 Jun 2016 #123
Thanks for that pile of irrelevant information seabeckind Jun 2016 #124
If you are going to characterize what I said, please have the integrity to be truthful in the future 24601 Jun 2016 #125
I didn't say it was wrong. seabeckind Jun 2016 #126
Reporter to State Dept: Some Officials Fear Authors of Critical Syria Memo Are Risking Careers bemildred Jun 2016 #106
For what, having a different opinion from you? anigbrowl Jun 2016 #118
They are trying to sandbag him in public while he is down dealing with the Orlando tragedy. bemildred Jun 2016 #120
Agreed, but I'm not sure that's a firing offense anigbrowl Jun 2016 #121
What is the End Game? One_Life_To_Give Jun 2016 #40
The end game Cayenne Jun 2016 #80
Neither Putin nor any subsequent Russian leader will give up that port at Tarsus. amandabeech Jun 2016 #110
Which country would benefit from this. Jesus Malverde Jun 2016 #41
Reddit comments on this: bemildred Jun 2016 #43
Classic! They can't even split their hypocrisy and lies across two sentences now! Nihil Jun 2016 #44
As opposed to Russia, which is in the full-blown Fascist stage? Odin2005 Jun 2016 #45
Yeah, those mid and high level guys are all career guys. Most likely started under Bush II tonyt53 Jun 2016 #53
We are lucky the President does not want war to be his legacy! Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #54
SHTF in weeks, not next year Cayenne Jun 2016 #81
I hope not Cayenne! Silver_Witch Jun 2016 #116
Where are all those Hillary supporters at? nolabels Jun 2016 #56
They're playing inside a bubble and pretend this isn't happening and HRC's role in creating leveymg Jun 2016 #57
Didn't you hear? Hillary just criticized the Saudis. Ikonoklast Jun 2016 #60
The future of this world is in serious jeopardy. cpwm17 Jun 2016 #59
Assad is a monster Marrah_G Jun 2016 #61
You don't even have the lying propaganda line straight arendt Jun 2016 #63
Syria is a massive clusterfuck Marrah_G Jun 2016 #71
It is truly hard. Some of that is down to the complexity of the situation arendt Jun 2016 #75
here is a link to blow everyone's mind. Marrah_G Jun 2016 #78
thanks for that. really, really sad waste. n/t arendt Jun 2016 #85
Just for the record: Nowhere in my post did I accuse you of calling for more war. n/t arendt Jun 2016 #76
Okay, thank you for clarifying that. Marrah_G Jun 2016 #79
Hillary Clinton will try to take out Assad. ThinkCritically Jun 2016 #72
And she will right into a bunch of S-400 missile systems... arendt Jun 2016 #74
Events are moving much faster Cayenne Jun 2016 #82
Career State folks, or are the political appointees???? Doubtful it is the career folks. 4139 Jun 2016 #83
I think they are the career professionals karynnj Jun 2016 #99
Hopefully.... Xolodno Jun 2016 #90
Ready to fight to the last drop of somebody else's blood. seabeckind Jun 2016 #103
I have always held the position seabeckind Jun 2016 #96
Obama, despite dissent on Syria, not shifting toward strikes on Assad bemildred Jun 2016 #105
US in talks with Russia after it bombed US-backed rebels in Syria bemildred Jun 2016 #108
Ain't it Funny? Night Watchman Jun 2016 #111
 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
70. She's made herself clear enough
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:02 PM
Jun 2016

through advocacy of a "no-fly zone" and of course through her consistent record (and concordance with her husband's consistent record).

Very, very fucked.

DonCoquixote

(13,616 posts)
2. obama is sane on this
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:15 PM
Jun 2016

but a certain person that wrote a book about "hard choices" wants that war with Syria that could blossom into a full lown Third Wordl War.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
16. This story indicates that our SOS is full of neolibs and neocons
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:45 PM
Jun 2016

Obama must be having a hell of a time containing it.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
3. These are her people speaking. We'll be at war with Iran and possibly Russia within a year.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:16 PM
Jun 2016

I feel it in my bones like a Cold Front approaching.
Recced for visibility.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
9. Yes. There are many neocons ensconced permanently at State.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:25 PM
Jun 2016

Ambassadors and Undersecretaries by the score. State used to be relatively dovish, but now it's the uniformed Armed Services who are the moderating influence.

It has nothing to do with dissent and 2 FAM
072. They've run the place for decades.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
12. You're aware that HRC brought in Nuland (a Neocon) and
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:29 PM
Jun 2016

her entire SOS tenure was around basically Pax Americana. This is the main reason I am concerned about an HRC presidency.

A Family Business of Perpetual War
March 20, 2015

Exclusive: Victoria Nuland and Robert Kagan have a great mom-and-pop business going. From the State Department, she generates wars and – from op-ed pages – he demands Congress buy more weapons. There’s a pay-off, too, as grateful military contractors kick in money to think tanks where other Kagans work, writes Robert Parry.

By Robert Parry

Neoconservative pundit Robert Kagan and his wife, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland, run a remarkable family business: she has sparked a hot war in Ukraine and helped launch Cold War II with Russia – and he steps in to demand that Congress jack up military spending so America can meet these new security threats.

This extraordinary husband-and-wife duo makes quite a one-two punch for the Military-Industrial Complex, an inside-outside team that creates the need for more military spending, applies political pressure to ensure higher appropriations, and watches as thankful weapons manufacturers lavish grants on like-minded hawkish Washington think tanks.


Prominent neocon intellectual Robert Kagan. (Photo credit: Mariusz Kubik, http://www.mariuszkubik.pl)

Not only does the broader community of neoconservatives stand to benefit but so do other members of the Kagan clan, including Robert’s brother Frederick at the American Enterprise Institute and his wife Kimberly, who runs her own shop called the Institute for the Study of War.

Continued:
https://consortiumnews.com/2015/03/20/a-family-business-of-perpetual-war/

McKim

(2,412 posts)
48. This Why I Can't Vote for Her
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:47 AM
Jun 2016

This is the reason I am not voting for her. Those dead people in Iraq, Syria, Libya and Honduras are just piling up a big body count.
Morally, HRC is a disaster. We will have war and more war in the future, while our people are starving on the streets! My tax dollars at work!

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
19. Victoria Nuland channels Cheney.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:57 PM
Jun 2016

She married PNAC Money.



Our woman in Ukraine, Victoria Nuland, is married to PNAC co-founder Robert Kagan

Robert Kagan's brother is Frederick Kagan

Frederick Kagan's spouse is Kimberly Kagan

Brilliant people, big ideas, etc. The thing is, that's a lot of PNAC. And the PNAC approach to international relations means more wars without end for profits without cease, among other things detrimental to democracy, peace and justice.

Tom Daschle makes me believe he saw the light, especially after being "left behind on 9-11."

MisterP

(23,730 posts)
29. Clinton's always said that the Syrian rebels need more guns, more money
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:31 PM
Jun 2016

all in order to "get at" Iran through Damascus
same as Honduras--get at Moscow through Havana through Caracas
it's the same old geopolitics

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
46. And State Dept Humanitarian Affairs shouldn't be confused with Medicines sans Frontiers.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:04 AM
Jun 2016

Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:55 AM - Edit history (2)

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
51. Bull's Eye on Damascus
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:55 AM
Jun 2016


What we do, Russia wants to do. Shoulda tried peace and help instead of austerity and the other thing. Oh well.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
84. You've seen this Clinton-era DOS email release? "The best way to help Israel . . .
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:09 PM
Jun 2016

deal with Iran's growing nuclear capability is to help the people of Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad."

https://foia.state.gov/search/results.aspx?searchText=C05794498&beginDate=&endDate=&publishedBeginDate=&publishedEndDate=&caseNumber=

UNCLASSIFIED U.S. Department of State Case No. F-2014-20439 Doc No. C05794498 Date: 11/30/2015
RELEASE IN FULL

The best way to help Israel deal with Iran's growing nuclear capability is to help the people of
Syria overthrow the regime of Bashar Assad.

Negotiations to limit Iran's nuclear program will not solve Israel's security dilemma. Nor will
they stop Iran from improving the crucial part of any nuclear weapons program — the capability
to enrich uranium. At best, the talks between the world's major powers and Iran that began in
Istanbul this April and will continue in Baghdad in May will enable Israel to postpone by a few
months a decision whether to launch an attack on Iran that could provoke a major Mideast war.
Iran's nuclear program and Syria's civil war may seem unconnected, but they are. For Israeli
leaders, the real threat from a nuclear-armed Iran is not the prospect of an insane Iranian leader
launching an unprovoked Iranian nuclear attack on Israel that would lead to the annihilation of
both countries. What Israeli military leaders really worry about -- but cannot talk about -- is
losing their nuclear monopoly.
 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
107. Nauseating.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:02 PM
Jun 2016

Maybe these State Department people and their friends and families should form their own militia and go over to the Middle East or North Africa and fight whomever it is that they want to fight.

The only condition would be that they renounce their American citizenship, fight under the flag of their choosing, and be supplied by someone other than the American taxpayer.

Let them make their own mistakes without taking the rest of us with them.

I'm just sick of these people,

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
5. Putin is looking for a war, but we do not need to start it for him.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:19 PM
Jun 2016

Yes, Assad is a monster who should be tried before the world court, but rushing into a war with Russia is a bad idea.

If it starts, let Putin start it.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
6. We are calling Al Quida "our rebels"
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:22 PM
Jun 2016

Wake up and smell the falafel. We are arming Al Quida. The Russians and Syrians are bombing Al Quida/Al Nursa/

Our rebels are NOT the good guys. The US has been trying to overthrow Assad for five years. They just will not stop. How this makes Putin a warmonger is beyond me; but obviously not beyond you.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
10. I never said they were good guys. They are rebels, who want a government that acts in their
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:27 PM
Jun 2016

interest. I doubt even those rebels that created this nation were "good guys." War is ugly.
I don't care what they call themselves. Their wives and children do not deserve to be starved or bombed to death.

Putin is a warmonger as he has shown repeatedly over his time as leader of Russia.

pottedplant

(94 posts)
25. They are fundamentalist lunatics who aren't even from there
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:13 PM
Jun 2016

Assad was far from perfect but he's no worse than many of the dictators we've kept afloat. As long as you didn't challenge him or try to force fundamentalism you lived your life. Pre-war, Literacy was at 80-90% and the per capita income was on par w Jordan. Women went to universities w men and had voting rights. They could divorce and get custody of kids.
We have no right being there or arming fundamentalists. None.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
33. A mass murderer who bombs women and children and used chemical warfare
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 11:22 PM
Jun 2016

on his own civilian populace is no worse than any dictator?
LOL

pottedplant

(94 posts)
42. In a civil war that other countries
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:52 AM
Jun 2016

Are using as an excuse for regime change, what do you expect? You might want to read a us history book to see what other us sponsored regime change debacles have resulted in loss of human life.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
47. The fact that other dictators have committed mass murder of their own peole
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:17 AM
Jun 2016

does not excuse Asad or Putin from their own war crimes.

McKim

(2,412 posts)
49. Oh Please, This War is Not about those Familiies!
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:52 AM
Jun 2016

Oh please, forget the noble sentiments. This war in Syria is not about Syrian families! They have been mostly destroyed already. This war is about Assad not wanting an oil pipeline from "our" oilfields in Iraq to the Mediterranean and about Assad not letting in international corps. to the Syrian market. Those little family businesses that used to be all over Syria must be crushed to make way for Kentucky Fried Chicken!

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
52. So oil pipeline bad, bombs and poison gas on Assad's own civilians good?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:58 AM
Jun 2016

as long as it stop the mean wicked, evil pipeline.
Assad is a mass murderer who should be tried in the world court. Putin is warmonger.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
62. Bull shit. Assad is mass murderer, slaughtering his own people, and Putin is a gggling
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:06 PM
Jun 2016

warmonger helping him do it.

I find it amazing that people Assad's war crimes and Putin's naked aggression.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
64. Just ignore Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and all the Wahabi-ist terrorists
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:15 PM
Jun 2016

Assad is the legitimate ruler of a country that is being destabilized by a huge cast of fundamentalist Sunni characters with the full backing of the US. He is fighting against murderous fanatics, recruited from all over the world - fanatics who burn people alive, rape women, and generally behave like psychopathic barbarians. One of "our rebels" ate a dead man's liver on live TV.

Despite all those facts, you see Assad as a "warmonger". Get out. He is defending his country and his Alawite Shia faction from Wahabist genocide.

Putin has done nothing illegal in Syria. He was invited in by the legitimate government.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
66. Assad started by murdering peaceful protesters that wanted more say in the government.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:22 PM
Jun 2016

That is how this started.

Instead of changing the subject talk about the War Criminal in Syria and the Warmonger that supports him.

ButterflyBlood

(12,644 posts)
115. You think Assad's government is "legitimate"?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:06 PM
Jun 2016

Do you think North Korea's government is legitimate as well? Both were elected in an about equally democratic process.

pottedplant

(94 posts)
65. Pick up a history book
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:15 PM
Jun 2016

And see which of our wars is #1 in killing "our own people." Oh yeah that would be the civil war. Again wtf do you expect? If it were not for us intervention in propping up al Qaeda so called moderate rebels, many more people would be alive. Assad would have wrapped it up long ago. We have no business being there or flooding the area w weapons and equipment. Go ahead and try to create bogeymen. Nobody is buying it anymore.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
69. He does not have every right to murder his citizens.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:57 PM
Jun 2016

To starve civilians to death.
To bomb civilians.
Not even if Putin supports him.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
73. Its a CIVIL war and a PROXY war
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:08 PM
Jun 2016

During wartime, murders are called casualties, or more cyncially, collateral damage. The US calls them that all the time when we bomb a wedding party or a hospital.

But, when Assad does it, you say he is a "Murderer".

Was Abe Lincoln a murderer when civilians died in the siege of Vicksburg? When the South was slowly starved by Sherman's march to the sea? By your standards, Abe Lincoln is a war criminal.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
77. Abe Lincoln did not bomb civilians
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:48 PM
Jun 2016

Now stick to the subject of Assad the mass murderer, and Putin the Warmonger instead of making excuses for the murder of civilians.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
86. you don't get to hijack my thread
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:34 PM
Jun 2016

Giving orders is a sure sign you have no argument.

Abe Lincoln used the best tech of his day. If he had bombers he would have used them. Gen Sherman was accused of war crimes.

Syria is same ahit, different day.

Agnosticsherbet

(11,619 posts)
88. Your complete refusal to address Assad's war crimes and murders
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:58 PM
Jun 2016

Is a clear sign that you have no argument.

mallard

(568 posts)
122. You are basically pushing a pro-war neocon line ...
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 03:04 AM
Jun 2016

... and are too busy with the anti-Assad propaganda to recognize how it enslaves you.

Or else you are kind of pro-Israel volunteer shill.

Ironic that you should need to carry on with the rant, considering how much your side have already 'accomplished' to date.

As effectively as you may believe the truth can be obscured, it's your very version of Assad-the-monster events which form the criteria for Syrian refugees hoping to enter America. There may be no room for variety in this below-the-surface DOS fundamentalism. Kerry can't sign onto it openly, but remains amenable to expressed (loyalist) concerns.

We are also obviously still being occupied from within.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
119. The Red Line and The Rat Line
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:34 AM
Jun 2016


http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n08/seymour-m-hersh/the-red-line-and-the-rat-line

Obama’s change of mind had its origins at Porton Down, the defence laboratory in Wiltshire. British intelligence had obtained a sample of the sarin used in the 21 August attack and analysis demonstrated that the gas used didn’t match the batches known to exist in the Syrian army’s chemical weapons arsenal. The message that the case against Syria wouldn’t hold up was quickly relayed to the US joint chiefs of staff. The British report heightened doubts inside the Pentagon; the joint chiefs were already preparing to warn Obama that his plans for a far-reaching bomb and missile attack on Syria’s infrastructure could lead to a wider war in the Middle East. As a consequence the American officers delivered a last-minute caution to the president, which, in their view, eventually led to his cancelling the attack.

For months there had been acute concern among senior military leaders and the intelligence community about the role in the war of Syria’s neighbours, especially Turkey. Prime Minister Recep Erdoğan was known to be supporting the al-Nusra Front, a jihadist faction among the rebel opposition, as well as other Islamist rebel groups. ‘We knew there were some in the Turkish government,’ a former senior US intelligence official, who has access to current intelligence, told me, ‘who believed they could get Assad’s nuts in a vice by dabbling with a sarin attack inside Syria – and forcing Obama to make good on his red line threat.’

The joint chiefs also knew that the Obama administration’s public claims that only the Syrian army had access to sarin were wrong. The American and British intelligence communities had been aware since the spring of 2013 that some rebel units in Syria were developing chemical weapons. On 20 June analysts for the US Defense Intelligence Agency issued a highly classified five-page ‘talking points’ briefing for the DIA’s deputy director, David Shedd, which stated that al-Nusra maintained a sarin production cell: its programme, the paper said, was ‘the most advanced sarin plot since al-Qaida’s pre-9/11 effort’. (According to a Defense Department consultant, US intelligence has long known that al-Qaida experimented with chemical weapons, and has a video of one of its gas experiments with dogs.) The DIA paper went on: ‘Previous IC [intelligence community] focus had been almost entirely on Syrian CW [chemical weapons] stockpiles; now we see ANF attempting to make its own CW … Al-Nusrah Front’s relative freedom of operation within Syria leads us to assess the group’s CW aspirations will be difficult to disrupt in the future.’ The paper drew on classified intelligence from numerous agencies: ‘Turkey and Saudi-based chemical facilitators,’ it said, ‘were attempting to obtain sarin precursors in bulk, tens of kilograms, likely for the anticipated large scale production effort in Syria.’ (Asked about the DIA paper, a spokesperson for the director of national intelligence said: ‘No such paper was ever requested or produced by intelligence community analysts.’)

Last May, more than ten members of the al-Nusra Front were arrested in southern Turkey with what local police told the press were two kilograms of sarin. In a 130-page indictment the group was accused of attempting to purchase fuses, piping for the construction of mortars, and chemical precursors for sarin. Five of those arrested were freed after a brief detention. The others, including the ringleader, Haytham Qassab, for whom the prosecutor requested a prison sentence of 25 years, were released pending trial. In the meantime the Turkish press has been rife with speculation that the Erdoğan administration has been covering up the extent of its involvement with the rebels. In a news conference last summer, Aydin Sezgin, Turkey’s ambassador to Moscow, dismissed the arrests and claimed to reporters that the recovered ‘sarin’ was merely ‘anti-freeze’.

karynnj

(59,492 posts)
14. Al Nusra are NOT our guys - they are explicitly not included in the cessation of hostilities
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:33 PM
Jun 2016

because quote - they are a terrorist group.

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
15. They are all from the branch of Wahabism which is why they have mixed together
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:38 PM
Jun 2016

Their loyalties are divided and even when they are not fighting together (al_Nusra and FA) they protect each other.

There is no "peaceful opposition" and we have been playing with fire.

Turkey was also giving arms and mercenaries to ISIS which was why the Russians bombed the border areas. We certainly knew that was going on because you could see the oil trucks from space and we did not bomb them for a YEAR.

This is a mess. We have a bunch of Machiavellian (ends justify the means) in important places who keep playing with fire and we keep getting burnt.

karynnj

(59,492 posts)
17. You ignore that Assad is responsible for the highest numbers of deaths
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:50 PM
Jun 2016

You could say that we encouraged the initial protests to which he over reacted and those over reactions were the first actions that led to calls to arm the rebels. Over the years, Assad has barrel bombed rebel held areas and he used chemical weapons. In addition, both Russia and Assad have been the primary violators of the cessation of hostilities.

Not to mention, the US and countries allied to it have fought ISIS -- more than Assad or Russia did.

Obama was very reluctant to give military aid to the rebels for the very reason you articulate. This genuinely is a mess and it seems that even the effort to stop the fighting and get a unity government are now less likely to work than ever.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
21. Overall, it's still roughly 50/50. No reason to tip the balance
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:02 PM
Jun 2016

As that will merely add to the body count.

karynnj

(59,492 posts)
23. There are more than 2 factions - unless you lump the rebels considered in the agreement, ISIS and
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:08 PM
Jun 2016

Al Nusra to be one and Assad and allies the other. The estimates I had seen excluded ISIS -- considering that a different conflict.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
26. ISIS is just al Nusra that mutated out of AQI. It will metastasize again into
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:14 PM
Jun 2016

64 splinters globally still connected at the hub to Saudi and Gulf money. Some things never change.

pottedplant

(94 posts)
30. Wrong. Assad and Putin have had success against isis
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:40 PM
Jun 2016

Much more so than the us. That's why the Brits are moving into help our jihadist allies destroy Assad. The Brits are serving a combat role. That's why this is so fucked up and could be the tipping point for ww3. Think this push to register girls is to promote feminism? And for what?
http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/06/15/british-troops-enter-syria-and-libya-to-ensure-that-war-outlives-isis/

newthinking

(3,982 posts)
7. Wow, how much power do the Neocons have? Holy moley
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:24 PM
Jun 2016

Fuckers are insane....

Even if the "good jihadi's were able to win this way this would absolutely lead to an extreme Sharia government and would not end the fighting but lead to more chaos.

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
38. Apparently state department employees can circulate policy proposals and leak them to the press
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 11:45 PM
Jun 2016

without informing the SoS and without getting fired for insubordination

Either that or Kerry is trying to send a warning to the Russians that, you know, we may have to shoot some of your aircraft down But no hard feelings cause bombing Assad is bombing ISIS Cause we all know Assad supports the very groups that are trying to overthrow him and establish an Islamic state of Syria

Makes all the sense in the world Until a Russian aircraft is shot down by NATO (read US)forces

Then all bets are off and the outcome could be an even bigger clusterfuck in the middle east as a whole

karynnj

(59,492 posts)
93. There is a channel set up for dissent on policy
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:57 PM
Jun 2016

What is interesting is that someone leaked it while the Secretary is on a long overseas trip on other issues. Apparently this is a draft and it had not yet been given to Kerry.

I do not know how many people there are working at those levels. Clearly that many people dissenting is unusual. What it shows is what Obama (and Kerry) are up against.

It also explains one article a year into Kerry's term that had back story on how the State Department both liked him personally, but some were frustrated because they were not convinced he read their memos. Given Kerry's reputation, they equated "not agreeing" with " not reading".

I worry that few possible SoS would have the same knowledge base and contacts that Kerry has and I doubt HRC would have the courage and confidence Obama has to stand against the career professionals.

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
113. I am inclined the other way I think Hilary would have these peoples heads on a platter for trying
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:24 PM
Jun 2016

to front run dissenting opinions in the media

Insubordination of the firing order

karynnj

(59,492 posts)
114. I would suggest that they would not be dissenting from her position
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:59 PM
Jun 2016

Because they agree.

I do think it very tacky they leaked it, but I think it is a very good think to have a channel where a person could dissent from the position the Secretary has taken without fearing the loss of their job.

I disagree with them, but it makes sense they have an ability to lay out their alternative.

Ikonoklast

(23,973 posts)
11. I'm all for it. Let's start WWIII and get it over with.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:28 PM
Jun 2016

Russia will never, ever, ever relinquish their naval base in Tartus.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
22. War's what the economy craves.
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:08 PM
Jun 2016


Economist Tyler Cowen of George Mason University has seen the future and it looks bleak for most of us. Thankfully, the United States of America may be in for good times, especially for those perched atop the socio-economic pyramid scheme, should war break out.



The Pitfalls of Peace

The Lack of Major Wars May Be Hurting Economic Growth

Tyler Cowen
The New York Times, JUNE 13, 2014

The continuing slowness of economic growth in high-income economies has prompted soul-searching among economists. They have looked to weak demand, rising inequality, Chinese competition, over-regulation, inadequate infrastructure and an exhaustion of new technological ideas as possible culprits.

An additional explanation of slow growth is now receiving attention, however. It is the persistence and expectation of peace.

The world just hasn’t had that much warfare lately, at least not by historical standards. Some of the recent headlines about Iraq or South Sudan make our world sound like a very bloody place, but today’s casualties pale in light of the tens of millions of people killed in the two world wars in the first half of the 20th century. Even the Vietnam War had many more deaths than any recent war involving an affluent country.

Counterintuitive though it may sound, the greater peacefulness of the world may make the attainment of higher rates of economic growth less urgent and thus less likely. This view does not claim that fighting wars improves economies, as of course the actual conflict brings death and destruction. The claim is also distinct from the Keynesian argument that preparing for war lifts government spending and puts people to work. Rather, the very possibility of war focuses the attention of governments on getting some basic decisions right — whether investing in science or simply liberalizing the economy. Such focus ends up improving a nation’s longer-run prospects.

It may seem repugnant to find a positive side to war in this regard, but a look at American history suggests we cannot dismiss the idea so easily. Fundamental innovations such as nuclear power, the computer and the modern aircraft were all pushed along by an American government eager to defeat the Axis powers or, later, to win the Cold War. The Internet was initially designed to help this country withstand a nuclear exchange, and Silicon Valley had its origins with military contracting, not today’s entrepreneurial social media start-ups. The Soviet launch of the Sputnik satellite spurred American interest in science and technology, to the benefit of later economic growth.

War brings an urgency that governments otherwise fail to summon. For instance, the Manhattan Project took six years to produce a working atomic bomb, starting from virtually nothing, and at its peak consumed 0.4 percent of American economic output. It is hard to imagine a comparably speedy and decisive achievement these days.

SNIP...

Living in a largely peaceful world with 2 percent G.D.P. growth has some big advantages that you don’t get with 4 percent growth and many more war deaths. Economic stasis may not feel very impressive, but it’s something our ancestors never quite managed to pull off. The real questions are whether we can do any better, and whether the recent prevalence of peace is a mere temporary bubble just waiting to be burst.

Tyler Cowen is a professor of economics at George Mason University.

SOURCE: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/14/upshot/the-lack-of-major-wars-may-be-hurting-economic-growth.html?_r=0



[font color="purple"]Dr. Cowen, from what I've read, is a fine person and not one to promulgate war. He's just sayin'.

He has commented on other Big Ticket economic themes impacting us today: "Inequality," for another instance.
[/font color]



Tired Of Inequality? One Economist Says It'll Only Get Worse

by NPR STAFF
September 12, 2013 3:05 AM

Economist Tyler Cowen has some advice for what to do about America's income inequality: Get used to it. In his latest book, Average Is Over, Cowen lays out his prediction for where the U.S. economy is heading, like it or not:

"I think we'll see a thinning out of the middle class," he tells NPR's Steve Inskeep. "We'll see a lot of individuals rising up to much greater wealth. And we'll also see more individuals clustering in a kind of lower-middle class existence."

It's a radical change from the America of 40 or 50 years ago. Cowen believes the wealthy will become more numerous, and even more powerful. The elderly will hold on to their benefits ... the young, not so much. Millions of people who might have expected a middle class existence may have to aspire to something else.

SNIP...

Some people, he predicts, may just have to find a new definition of happiness that costs less money. Cowen says this widening is the result of a shifting economy. Computers will play a larger role and people who can work with computers can make a lot. He also predicts that everyone will be ruthlessly graded — every slice of their lives, monitored, tracked and recorded.

CONTINUED with link to the audio...

http://www.npr.org/2013/09/12/221425582/tired-of-inequality-one-economist-says-itll-only-get-worse



For some reason, the interview with Steve Inskeep didn't bring up the subject of the GOVERNMENT DOING SOMETHING ABOUT IT LIKE IN THE NEW DEAL so I thought I'd bring it up. Older DUers may recall the Democratic Party once actually did do stuff for the average American, from school and work to housing and justice. But, we can't afford that now, obviously, thanks to austerity or the sequester or the divided government.

What's important is that the 1-percent may swell to a 15-percent "upper middle class." Unfortunately, that may see the rest of the middle class go the other way. Why does that ring a bell? Oh yeah.

"Commercial interests are very powerful interests," said George W Bush on Feb. 14, 2007 White House press conference in which he added, "Let me put it this way, ah, sometimes, ah, money trumps peace." And then he giggled and not a single member of the callow, cowed and corrupt press corpse saw fit to ask a follow-up.



Gold Star mom Cindy Sheehan tried to bring it to our nation's attention back in 2007. I don't recall even one reporter from the national corporate owned news seeing it fit to comment. Certainly not many have commented on how three generations of Bush men -- Senator Prescott Sheldon Bush, President George Herbert Walker Bush and pretzeldent George Walker Bush all had their eyes on Iraq's oil.

What the "experts" don't know, especially ones who've never gone to war, is the World War III will be lights out for ALL.
 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
109. George Mason University is a largely commuter school in Northern Virginia located
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:12 PM
Jun 2016

not far from the Pentagon and Langley.

Its professors have become the go-to people for DC area conservative pundits. It's closer than the foreign policy school at Johns Hopkins and its located in a "safer" area. Its profs also tend to be a fair bit more extreme than the more measured types at Hopkins.

There's a higher looney right quotient at Mason.

Octafish

(55,745 posts)
112. Thank you!
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:11 PM
Jun 2016

Authoritarian Tyler seemed to blow a fuse regarding Naomi Klein and "Disaster Capitalism."



Shock Jock

By TYLER COWEN | October 3, 2007
Book Review
The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism
by Naomi Klein

EXCERPT...

Ms. Klein's rhetoric is ridiculous. For instance, she attaches import to the fact that the word "tank" appears in the label "think tank." In her book, free market advocates are tarred with the brush of torture, because free market advocates often support unpopular policies, and torture also often supports unpopular policies. Clearly, by her tactic of freewheeling association, free market advocates must support torture. Often Ms. Klein's proffered connections are so impressionistic and so reliant on a smarmy wink to the knowing that it is impossible to present them, much less critique them, in the short space of a book review.

Rarely are the simplest facts, many of which complicate Ms. Klein's presentation, given their proper due. First, the reach of government has been growing in virtually every developed nation in the world, including in America, and it hardly seems that a far-reaching free market conspiracy controls much of anything in the wealthy nations. Second, Friedman and most other free market economists have consistently called for limits on state power, including the power to torture. Third, the reach of government has been shrinking in India and China, to the indisputable benefit of billions. Fourth, it is the New Deal — the greatest restriction on capitalism in 20th century America and presumably beloved by Ms. Klein — that was imposed in a time of crisis. Fifth, many of the crises of the 20th century resulted from anti-capitalistic policies, rather than from capitalism: China was falling apart because of the murderous and tyrannical policies of Chairman Mao, which then led to bottom-up demands for capitalistic reforms; New Zealand and Chile abandoned socialistic policies for freer markets because the former weren't working well and induced economic crises.

But the reader will search in vain for an intelligent discussion of any of these points. What the reader will find is a series of fabricated claims, such as the suggestion that Margaret Thatcher created the Falkland Islands crisis to crush the unions and foist unfettered capitalism upon an unwilling British public.

The simplest response to Ms. Klein's polemic is to invoke old school conservatism. This approach, most prominently represented by classical liberal Friedrich Hayek, rejected the idea of throwing out or revising all social institutions at once. Indeed the long history of conservative thought stands behind moderation in most matters of social and economic policy. That tradition does advise a scaling down of free market ambitions, no matter how good they may sound in theory, and is probably our best hedge against disasters of our own making. Such a simple — indeed sensible — point would not have produced a best-selling screed, however. And so we return to charging Friedman as an enabler of torture. The clash between democratic preferences and policy prescriptions is, if anything, a problem for Ms. Klein herself. Ms. Klein's previous book, "No Logo" (2000), called for rebellion against advertising and multinational corporations, two institutions which have proved remarkably popular with ordinary democratic citizens. Starbucks is ubiquitous because of pressure from the bottom, not because of a top-down decision to force capitalism upon the suffering workers in a time of crisis.

If nothing else, Ms. Klein's book provides an interesting litmus test as to who is willing to condemn its shoddy reasoning. In the New York Times, Nobel Laureate Joseph Stiglitz defended the book: "Klein is not an academic and cannot be judged as one." So nonacademics get a pass on sloppy thinking, false "facts," and emotional appeals? In making economic claims, Ms. Klein demands to be judged by economists' standards — or at the very least, standards of simple truth or falsehood. Mr. Stiglitz continued: "There are many places in her book where she oversimplifies. But Friedman and the other shock therapists were also guilty of oversimplification." Have we come to citing the failures of one point of view to excuse the mistakes of another?

With "The Shock Doctrine," Ms. Klein has become the kind of brand she lamented in "No Logo." Brands offer a simplification of image and presentation, rather than stressing the complexity, the details, and the inevitable trade-offs of a particular product. Recently, Ms. Klein told the Financial Times, "I stopped talking about (the campaign against brands) about two weeks after ‘No Logo' was published." She admitted that brands were never her real target, rather they were a convenient means of attacking the capitalist system more generally. In the same interview, Ms. Klein also tellingly remarked, "I believe people believe their own bulls---. Ideology can be a great enabler for greed."

CONTINUED...

http://www.nysun.com/arts/shock-jock/63867/



Guy's a dear, protecting the Pentagon acquisitions department.

pottedplant

(94 posts)
13. Regime change makes no sense
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 09:32 PM
Jun 2016

Last edited Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:14 PM - Edit history (1)

Assad is battling Isis and the rebranded al Qaeda "moderate allies." Syria is a secular country but we are determined to create a fundamentalist hell hole like we have in Libya and Iraq. It serves the usual suspects to have a destabilized oppressed region. Obama should not be let off the hook. Americans let him know they could not stomache an outright invasion so he has gradually increased our presence largely with little media coverage. Now we have pentagon rebels fighting cia factions with weapons galore. He could have walked away. He didn't.

ronnie624

(5,764 posts)
24. "It serves the usual suspects to have a destabilized oppressed region."
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:11 PM
Jun 2016

That's it, "manageable chaos", a tactic that's been utilized for decades in the struggle to control energy resources.

McKim

(2,412 posts)
50. Thanks for the Bigger Picture
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 09:54 AM
Jun 2016

Thanks for the reminder about "manageable chaos". This is a perfect frame with which to understand what is going on over there.
The moral crimes continue in our name and with our tax dollars.

christx30

(6,241 posts)
27. No. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:22 PM
Jun 2016

to go to war against Assad and Putin. Assad may be a bad guy. You want to go after bad guys? What about Kim Jong Un? What about any number of dictators and brutal governments around the world?
It's not worth the price in human lives or the trillions it'll be over the next 30 years IF you're able to win the war, and not have Putin nuke Berlin just for the hell of it.

GeorgeGist

(25,306 posts)
32. Mr Kirby said US Secretary of State John Kerry "values and respects" the device,
Thu Jun 16, 2016, 10:43 PM
Jun 2016

Mr Kirby said US Secretary of State John Kerry "values and respects" the device, but would not be drawn on whether he believes this specific complaint has merit.

http://www.straitstimes.com/world/united-states/us-diplomats-use-state-dept-channel-for-dissidents-to-criticise-obamas-policy-on

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
94. That is a bullshit RW talking point
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:00 PM
Jun 2016

Civil service rank and file is protected against improper firing. They can be fired, it just takes a bit of paperwork.

If these clowns are SES, they can be gone tomorrow.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
97. And you are more informed than someone who wrote the HR memos?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:05 PM
Jun 2016

Try again.

BTW, they're online.

Get back to me when you get informed.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
100. I didn't figure you had anything.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:13 PM
Jun 2016

Pretty safe bet based on your first comment.

This one means you have no intent to become informed. Not surprised about that either.

24601

(3,954 posts)
123. You can remove the political patronage SES who serve at the pleasure of the President.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 05:50 AM
Jun 2016

Last edited Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:31 AM - Edit history (1)

You can likewise remove EX Scale and Schedule C personnel, all of whom are patronage employees. State has a bit more than 550 such jobs.

Career SES have due process rights.

The Internal Dissent Channel (IDC), which has been around since 1971, is set up to allow alternative views to be passed up the chain without retribution or reprisal.

Why would anyone without a closed mind object to that?

Should someone be removed? There should be an investigation into how it was leaked, especially since the authors included sensitive but unclassified information - which is fine since it's purpose, like whistle-blowing mechanisms, is to provide a secure and safe way to pass information. The difference is that whistle-blowing alleges misconduct or mismanagement while IDC is more analogous to the suggestion box. STATE should be commended that they maintain this in such a way that it's personnel are comfortable putting their names on an IDC communication. It reflects that employees believe that it serves it's purpose and isn't used to root out and punish someone who uses it.

If someone has been bored enough to read some of my other posts, they may see that I've been in Federal Government since 1972. There probably isn't anybody that agrees with any administration on everything. That has nothing to do with whether we fulfill our oaths of office and faithfully carry out the lawful decisions and policies, even the dumb ones.

Do I support the policy? Of course.

Do I agree? Irrelevant, with two qualifiers. First, when we believe there is misconduct, fraud, waste, abuse, or other mismanagement, then contact the IG, OGC, OSC, Chain of Command or make a complaint to Congress. Second, if a policy or action doesn't reflect wrongdoing, but the employee cannot carry it out as a matter of conscience, government work isn't for everyone and you can always do something else. But over the years, I've been fine telling my supervisors that it's time to move to another office and that they would be better served with someone without the reservations about remaining in my current position.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
124. Thanks for that pile of irrelevant information
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:23 AM
Jun 2016

dealing with what you believe would be the factors in this case.

The statement was: "They are protected by civil service can't be fired."

Which is untrue.

24601

(3,954 posts)
125. If you are going to characterize what I said, please have the integrity to be truthful in the future
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:47 AM
Jun 2016

I said, "Career SES have due process rights."

I didn't say or imply that they can't be fired.

But don't my word for it, here's the last paragraph, page 24, OPM Guide to the Senior Executive Service:

"Appeals: Adverse action removals and suspensions can be appealed to the Merit Systems
Protection Board."

https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/senior-executive-service/reference-materials/guidesesservices.pdf


Please, enlighten us about your experience and explain why you are right and my statement & OPM are wrong. And you don't have to be a jerk to disagree.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
126. I didn't say it was wrong.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 07:52 AM
Jun 2016

I said it was irrelevant.

When you can't convince them using logic, bury them in...

The last part of your comment is a logic fallacy.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
106. Reporter to State Dept: Some Officials Fear Authors of Critical Syria Memo Are Risking Careers
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:02 PM
Jun 2016

Current and former State Department officials fear that the diplomats who authored an internal memo leaked Thursday that criticizes the Obama administration’s Syria policy and calls for strikes against the government of Bashar al-Assad are putting their careers in the department at risk, according to Reuters’ U.S. foreign policy correspondent.

At the State Department daily press briefing on Friday, Arshad Mohammad brought up the potential backlash that 51 current diplomats could face for signing a letter sent through the department’s “dissent channel” urging President Obama to judiciously use military strikes against the Assad regime as part of “a more focused and hard-nosed U.S.-led diplomatic process” to end the five-year-long Syrian civil war.

The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal both reported the story on Thursday night, the day that the confidential document was leaked to the press.

Mohammad first described to State Department spokesman John Kirby how the Foreign Affairs Manual prohibits any retaliation against employees who use the dissent channel to make their disagreements with U.S. policy known.

http://freebeacon.com/national-security/reporter-state-dept-people-fear-authors-critical-syria-memo-risking-careers/

 

anigbrowl

(13,889 posts)
118. For what, having a different opinion from you?
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 12:19 AM
Jun 2016

I find their opinion disagreeable, possibly dangerous - although I have yet to read their letter and presume they offer some sort of argument to justify such a drastic course of action. Nevertheless I don't think that having a disagreeable opinion is cause for termination as long as they're performing their jobs properly.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
120. They are trying to sandbag him in public while he is down dealing with the Orlando tragedy.
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:35 AM
Jun 2016

They are trying to subvert his authority over foreign policy by leaking this all over the press and starting a witch hunt. If they protested through the private "dissent" channel without going public, OK, I can deal with that, but these media barrages intended to go around him are another matter.

 

anigbrowl

(13,889 posts)
121. Agreed, but I'm not sure that's a firing offense
Sat Jun 18, 2016, 01:49 AM
Jun 2016

And there's many places that such a communication might have leaked from. Team discipline is a good thing but not to the point that lower-level employees are afraid to communicate up the chain, even if I don't like the content of said communication.

One_Life_To_Give

(6,036 posts)
40. What is the End Game?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 06:23 AM
Jun 2016

Libya and Iraq have not turned out so well thus far. Not to mention that Putin has stated Russia will not accept the overthrow of Assad. Maybe long term Libya, Iraq etc. will become g places with no room for Hate nor ISIS. But don't see that happening in the next 6 months. A quick defeat of ISIS would seem to require a policy backing Putin and Assad in disintegrating the forces creating anarchy within Syria. Which helps the short term problem but long term creates others.

Cayenne

(480 posts)
80. The end game
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:51 PM
Jun 2016

A Sunni order will get a gas pipeline from Qatar to Europe thus undercutting Gazproms monopoly.

The Sunni will eject Hezbollah for Israel.

The war on Iran requires access via Syria and Iraq.

Russia is to be ejected from the Mediterranean (and eventually from the Black Sea to).

The Sunni will purge the area of all non-Sunni. Women will become property like Saudi Arabia.

Those are the neocons goals which Hillary shares.

 

amandabeech

(9,893 posts)
110. Neither Putin nor any subsequent Russian leader will give up that port at Tarsus.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:24 PM
Jun 2016

It is the only warm water port that Russia has, and it is outside the Bosporus Straits controlled by Turkey. They will fight like there's no tomorrow for that base.

Also, that expanded airbase at Latakia has generally good flying conditions, and planes stationed there can fly over the Med without overflying any other country.

If Israel is supposed to be an unsinkable aircraft carrier for the U.S., then the west coast of Syria is the same for Russia.

It will take more than a few bombs to oust Russia from western Syria.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
43. Reddit comments on this:
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:06 AM
Jun 2016

all 29 comments
sorted by: best

[–]iseetheway [score hidden] 3 hours ago

An example of people with a fixed idea being unable to move forward and reaccess the situation as the situation changes. Accused of changing his mind Keynes famously replied "When the facts change I change my mind. What do you do sir !?" But then he was a thinker not a functionary

permalinkembed

[–]ackbar1235 [score hidden] 10 hours ago

That ship sailed nine months ago.

permalinkembed

[–]spenk001Syrian [score hidden] 9 hours ago

In other words: since al-Qaeda and allies are suffering heavy casualties and losing on every front we beg the president to let the USAF become the airforce of al-Qaeda.

They are using their default arguments whom are all deprecated by now:

Assad uses barrelbombs

.

Assad is the reason why the COH didn't hold (surely it can't be the moderate rebels whom supported al-Qaeda by taking al-Eis.

.

Assad does not want to negotiate with moderates (the same 'moderates' whom are supporting al-Qaeda)

.

we want to end the bloodshed (by attacking the biggest faction in this war)

Also this part is completely rediculous; as if there are no sunnis in the SAA and as if those in idlob roaming with al-Qaeda are moderate.

military action against Mr. Assad would help the fight against the Islamic State because it would bolster moderate Sunnis, who are necessary allies against the group.

Tldr; the US politics are disgusting.

permalinkembed

https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/4ogofz/dozens_of_us_diplomats_in_memo_urge_strikes/

 

Nihil

(13,508 posts)
44. Classic! They can't even split their hypocrisy and lies across two sentences now!
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:53 AM
Jun 2016

> The views expressed by the U.S. officials in the cable amount to a scalding internal critique
> of a longstanding U.S. policy against taking sides in the Syrian war, a policy that has survived
> even though the regime of President Bashar al-Assad has been repeatedly accused of violating
> cease-fire agreements and Russian-backed forces have attacked U.S.-trained rebels...



Just keeping the two-faced lies going as always ... doesn't matter if it is Clinton or Kerry talking:
they are both paid out of the same pockets - pockets that have no interest in "peace", just
"more arms deals" ...


 

Silver_Witch

(1,820 posts)
54. We are lucky the President does not want war to be his legacy!
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 10:09 AM
Jun 2016

We will not be so lucky in 2017 . war is on the horizon and I weep!

nolabels

(13,133 posts)
56. Where are all those Hillary supporters at?
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:08 AM
Jun 2016

Like man, i thought we were supposed to to be cranking it up for the general election

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
57. They're playing inside a bubble and pretend this isn't happening and HRC's role in creating
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 11:18 AM
Jun 2016

Last edited Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:01 PM - Edit history (1)

and expanding the problem of Saudi-sponsored militants and terrorism doesn't exist.

 

cpwm17

(3,829 posts)
59. The future of this world is in serious jeopardy.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:06 PM
Jun 2016

We can almost guarantee that the next US President will be a big war supporter. Supporters of the Democratic nominee couldn't seem to care less, at best, or have complete blood thirst, like so many supporters of most of the Republican nominees. Many consider "anti-war liberal" to be a pejorative.

There aren't enough Americans that oppose war.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
61. Assad is a monster
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 12:45 PM
Jun 2016

Just watch some videos of Aleppo. It looks like Berlin after the Blitz. Every day, all day and night they bomb civilians. The death toll is terrible and the amount of children and infants is massive. Aside from planes they drop barrel bombs from helicopters and have even used incendiary bombs... one was dropped on a school yard as school was letting out.

He even used cyanide gas on his own citizens.

I could post the videos here but they are incredibly disturbing and I would not want to trigger anyone's pstd.

The only reason I can see for not stopping Assad is because Russia is involved and a war with Russia would be world war 3.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
63. You don't even have the lying propaganda line straight
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 01:08 PM
Jun 2016

It was sarin, not cyanide.

And that whole lie has been completely debunked. The sarin was sent from Libya, via Turkey to IS.

As for the violence, both sides are committing atrocities. You are appalled at one side of the fight, but fine with the other.

If Assad is a monster, what does that make HRC, who has pushed for destroying Syria for years?

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
71. Syria is a massive clusterfuck
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:05 PM
Jun 2016

100 different factions, all with their own mostly fucked up agendas. You are making assumptions of all my views. Yes, I meant Sarin, not cyanide. As for HRC, I am not a fan.

I am never fine with atrocities or war. I despise violence. No where in my post did I call for more war. To attack Assad would mean war with Russia.

These days it is impossible to have a civil conversation on DU.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
75. It is truly hard. Some of that is down to the complexity of the situation
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:24 PM
Jun 2016

Some of it to the sheer number of posters on DU.

You just gave me a bunch of info about yourself that I did not have.

I have been running this thread for over 12 hours, and have had to deal with the usual collection of hardliners. Apologies for judging you so quickly; but you should have put this post's info into the previous post, since I don't know you.

Yes. Syria is a clusterfuck. But we made it so.

We greenlighted the Saudis and the Turks. We sent arms stolen from Libya. We allowed the Saudis to use armed provocateurs to escalate demonstrations that started due to a massive drought ( a fact almost always ignored) into a Civil War.

We made up the preposterous distinction of "our rebels", even as they trade weapons with ISIS like they were baseball cards. We ignored miles-long lines of ISIS tanker trucks for a year, and we still have never called Turkey out not only for supporting the terrorists, but for literally LOOTING Iraq and Syria. We say we are "against" Wahabi terrorism, but we have allowed the Saudis to evangelize and fund Wahabi terrorism all over the world.

Meanwhile, the CIA and the US military are constantly infighting over this clusterfuck. The military is tired of picking up the china after the CIA bull leaves the shop.

It is a clusterfuck, and we keep on pushing it. This thread is just the latest example of our neocon warmongering. Meanwhile, most of the static I have been getting on this thread is to demonize Assad and Putin - who to my mind are doing their best to avoid a conflagration while barely staying alive.

Marrah_G

(28,581 posts)
78. here is a link to blow everyone's mind.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:49 PM
Jun 2016
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_armed_groups_in_the_Syrian_Civil_War

Everyone should take a look and try to wrap their minds around all this. It's pretty much impossible to keep it all straight.

As far as fighting Isis, from what I have seen the Iraqi special forces and the Peshmerga are the ones doing the real damage to them. Everyone else seems to be focused on fighting each other, blowing up cities and killing civilians.

It makes me so very sad. I wonder if humanity will ever evolve past the need to slaughter one another.
 

ThinkCritically

(241 posts)
72. Hillary Clinton will try to take out Assad.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 02:33 PM
Jun 2016

She has already voiced this opinion. She wants to do what we did in Iraq and Libya which we know what the outcome will be. It's devastating to think we had someone like Bernie running and we have to settle for more war because the war mongers own our country now. Unfortunately, she is still a better option than Trump who will go straight to the nuclear option. Its either conventional war or nuclear war. Take your pick.

arendt

(5,078 posts)
74. And she will right into a bunch of S-400 missile systems...
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:12 PM
Jun 2016

So, she will unleash Turkish ground forces. That will be countered by Iranian ground forces.

And it will keep on escalating until we are all toast.

Because neocons are insane and think that war between nuclear powers can be contained .

Cayenne

(480 posts)
82. Events are moving much faster
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 03:58 PM
Jun 2016

The SHTF in mere weeks now. Kerry gave Assad until August 1 to vacate. Hostilities will be started by Turkey (because it is harder for us to declare war).

4139

(1,893 posts)
83. Career State folks, or are the political appointees???? Doubtful it is the career folks.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 04:03 PM
Jun 2016

Scary stuff,

karynnj

(59,492 posts)
99. I think they are the career professionals
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:10 PM
Jun 2016

There appear to be no deputy or assistant secretaries or ambassadors. Former ambassador Ford appears to agree with them, but he is a career foreign service person.

What this suggests is that the neocon ideas have been dominant foreign policy ideas for so long that a significant number of people hired and moving up in the foreign service are neo cons.

It explains why change is not only not immediate, but incredibly slow when administrations change. In fact, it may well be that the thourough, dillagent, hard working HRC was influenced by these experts and their allies in the FP think tanks.

These thoughts make me even more impressed that Obama said no to these deep rooted ideas and to be less harsh that he was not stronger in defining his policy at the beginning of this mess.

Xolodno

(6,381 posts)
90. Hopefully....
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 05:47 PM
Jun 2016

...this is the last gasp on taking out Assad and these neo-con "analysts" are just desperate throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks in the hope Obama turns his guns on Assad.

And attacking Assad is just stupid. It will only help ISIS.

Which was probably the goal in the first place. ISIS takes out Assad, then we cut the faucet of arms and take out ISIS.

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
103. Ready to fight to the last drop of somebody else's blood.
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:23 PM
Jun 2016

Take out ISIS. Right.

ISIS isn't a thing. It's Hydra on steroids.

This shit has been going on for over a thousand years. Just what crazy egotistical attitude thinks that we can fix it?

seabeckind

(1,957 posts)
96. I have always held the position
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 07:03 PM
Jun 2016

that when Obama took office in 2009, he should have sent a memo to all the executive staff with the basic message:

There have been some serious improprieties going on.

This shit ends now.

And then clean house of all the mandarins leftover from the glory years.

Lean, mean, governin machine.

Instead....

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
105. Obama, despite dissent on Syria, not shifting toward strikes on Assad
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:00 PM
Jun 2016

The U.S. administration sought on Friday to contain fallout from a leaked internal memo critical of its Syria policy, but showed no sign it was willing to consider military strikes against Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces called for in the letter signed by dozens of American diplomats.

Several U.S. officials said that while the White House is prepared to hear the diplomats’ dissenting viewpoint, it is not expected to spur any changes in President Barack Obama’s approach to Syria in his final seven months in office.

One senior official said that the test for whether these proposals for more aggressive action are given high-level consideration will be whether they “fall in line with our contention that there is no military solution to the conflict in Syria.”

The document - sent through the State Department’s “dissent channel,” a conduit for voicing contrary opinions meant to be confidential - underscored long-standing divisions and frustrations among Obama’s aides over his response to Syria’s five-year-old civil war.

http://in.reuters.com/article/mideast-crisis-usa-cable-idINKCN0Z32BV?rpc=401

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
108. US in talks with Russia after it bombed US-backed rebels in Syria
Fri Jun 17, 2016, 08:03 PM
Jun 2016

The Pentagon has engaged with the Russian military after it struck Pentagon-supported rebels with airstrikes in southern Syria on Thursday, a senior Pentagon official said Friday.

"We have engaged with the Russians per our [memorandum of understanding] guidelines, and those conversations continue," the official said.

Reuters reported Friday afternoon that even after the Pentagon had asked Moscow to stop after the first strike, the Russians launched a second strike against the rebels.

A U.S. official told Reuters that a small number of Syrian fighters were killed in Thursday's airstrikes.

http://thehill.com/policy/defense/283965-defense-official-conversations-with-russia-continue-after-strikes-against-us

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