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inanna

(3,547 posts)
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 04:34 AM Feb 2017

China lashes out at Mattis remarks on East China Sea islands

Source: Associated Press

Feb. 4, 2017 3:15 AM ET

BEIJING (AP) — The U.S. is putting regional stability in East Asia at risk, a Chinese spokesman said Saturday following remarks by President Donald Trump's defense secretary that a U.S. commitment to defend Japanese territory applies to an island group that China claims.

Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesman Lu Kang on Saturday called on the U.S. to avoid discussion of the issue and reasserted China's claim of sovereignty over the tiny uninhabited islands, known in Japanese as the Senkaku and Chinese as Diaoyu.

The 1960 U.S.-Japan treaty is "a product of the Cold War, which should not impair China's territorial sovereignty and legitimate rights," Lu was quoted as saying in a statement posted on the ministry's website.

"We urge the U.S. side to take a responsible attitude, stop making wrong remarks on the issue involving the Diaoyu islands' sovereignty, and avoid making the issue more complicated and bringing instability to the regional situation," Lu said.

Read more: http://hosted2.ap.org/APDEFAULT/cae69a7523db45408eeb2b3a98c0c9c5/Article_2017-02-04-AS--China-US-Japan/id-ba4eddf9fdfd4642b8946c93b0ddfe12

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cstanleytech

(26,248 posts)
1. The US isnt the one building islands in a dishonorable scheme to try and seize territory that
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 05:14 AM
Feb 2017

is not even near the coast of China by any stretch of the imagination Kang.

Igel

(35,282 posts)
4. Honor has its own rules.
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 12:57 PM
Feb 2017

One of them is that truth is subservient to honor.

Another is that there's a trade to be made: it is okay to do some dishonorable things, provided that they are not called dishonorable or that the honor obtained is greater than what's lost.

That's the problem with public honor systems. Honor is attributed, not necessarily earned. It's kept as long as people say you have it. This is opposed to the typical post-Enlightenment system of honor that views honor as resulting from abiding by a set of internal principles even under duress and when confronted with temptation (with the stipulation that these are generally accepted good values; Hitler might have abided by his set of internal values, but he fails the stipulation).

There are numerous instances where the two systems produce the same result. That makes it easy for people to assume that everybody has the same system of values. "We are the world."

Each system views the other with contempt. I have kids who think it's the height of foolishness to not steal something if nobody'll know you did it, whether it's a cookie, a wallet, or rape. I have kids who think this is just plain immoral and wrong and will leave a forgotten wallet on the desk or make sure to turn it in, not even opening it because that would be too great an invasion of privacy.

It's a damn-fool mistake to treat bearers of public honor the same way you treat bearers of personal honor, idiocy of the highest caliber. If we do so, "we are the whirled." Pureed, even if self-declared pure.

Personal honor says to protect the weak. Attributed honor often says that if somebody's such an idiot as to let himself easily be taken advantage of, that's on the idiot.

Diversity. It's a good thing.


Oh, note that a year or two ago some sociologist claimed to identify a third necessarily distinct honor system, one that was based not on observance and adherence to a personal set of generally accepted moral values, nor on attributed honor. Instead, this was based on grievance, with proclaimed aggrieved status resulting in higher honor and asking for others to defend your weakness against oppression a positive value. (In public honor systems, this is a nuclear option for honor, self-abasement and public proclamation of being shamed are strictly punished. In a personal honor system, this is deemed petty unless the grievance is large enough. Otherwise the honorable thing to do is to keep on keeping on in the face of adversity, because in that lies honor. Public honor systems have ways to restore honor and deal with grievances. Personal honor systems tend to value forgiveness or for larger "crimes" have some way of dealing with the moral breech. In a "grievance culture" you find things to claim as grievances, and no grievance is too slight or to subjective for this, and the only way out is abject humiliation of your foe. I don't like the name "grievance culture"; I call it a "winner-take-all culture" or a "victory culture", a very polarized culture with abject always victims and exuberant always victors.)


Anyway, I doubt that China would consider what they're doing dishonorable. It serves the needs of their honor, and when it comes to getting them to change their mind there are few options: you can convince them that they're acting in a way that will result in shame; you can convince them they're acting in a way that will affect their self-interest in impressively large ways that make accepting a course of action been honorable or worth it; you can substitute this honor for some other honor, reduce the honor in this course of action, or impose a smaller penalty coupled with a way to save face. Nations go to war to preserve their honor, and for the Chinese, with government control of industry, a militarized society, and a strong sense of nationalism wrapped up with traditional views of honor (gee, did I just apply a common definition of fascism, one that also applied to the USSR and is therefore useless?) to do so would be easy.

Don't know what to make of the demographic angle for China. Societies with large numbers of surplus young males tend to find themselves in war or revolution. China has a surplus of males. On the other hand, many of those males are sole heirs of nuclear families, and those tend to be valued disproportionately.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
5. And it isn't just the islands...
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 01:03 PM
Feb 2017

...the Chinese are claiming that all the waters around, in between and near those islands are China's territorial waters. That's pretty much the entire South China Sea through which 60% of the world's trade passes. There is no way we will - or should - sit still for that.


jpak

(41,757 posts)
2. Trump better be ready for a real war - where US naval vessels will be sunk.
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 08:10 AM
Feb 2017

China has invested heavily in modern A2/AD and can call his bluff.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
7. It would be a mistake to think of this as a "bluff"
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 01:31 PM
Feb 2017

War may indeed come. We will lose ships and planes and tens of thousands of lives. China will be defeated and destroyed, for much the same reason that Japan was in WWII; far too much of their much needed natural resources are imported and that has to pass through the area being fought over, (and a good deal of it comes from places like Australia which is allied to us). The wealth they need to provision their military and to fight the war comes from exports which will be stopped for the same reason. AND the vast majority of China's financial reserves are in US Savings Bonds which will be frozen at the very threat of war.

Yes, China has invested heavily in A2/AD. But that can be countered with strategy and weapons. And allies, of which we have many in that neighborhood, and they have only one.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
9. China will not be defeated.
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 12:07 PM
Feb 2017

They will go straight for the oil in the ME. They have an overland route to do it. We do not. Once they control the ME, we are at their beckon call.

If nukes get used, we ALL will be losers.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
10. What route would that be?
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 01:40 PM
Feb 2017

Do you honestly think either India or Russia will stand back and let a million Chinese troops march through their territory?

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
11. Try repelling 200 million plus Chinese without nuclear weapons.
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 01:42 PM
Feb 2017

Thru Pakistan into Iran, btw.

The Sino-Russian gambit right now is to weaken the United States. The Russians will abandoned Dump in favor of the Chinese if war breaks out.

NickB79

(19,224 posts)
12. You think they'd make it through Pakistan and Iran?
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 01:52 PM
Feb 2017

Even IF Pakistan failed to use nukes, or Russia didnt intervene on Iran's behalf, there is this thing called supply lines, and running one big enough through a thousand miles of hostile terrain to supply a million troops would fail. The Soviets found that out in Afghanistan in spectacular fashion.

Your war scenario is about as realistic as the N. Korean invasion of the US in the movie Red Dawn.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
13. Russia, Iran and China are in SCO.
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 01:55 PM
Feb 2017

Read up on your geopolitics. They are allies in the Shanghai Cooperation Organization.

India and Pakistan signed ascendancy agreements to SCO last year.

Chinese troops would pass right through nearly unopposed if the United States attacks Iran.

Johnyawl

(3,205 posts)
15. An overland route to the mideast? Really? lol
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 02:14 PM
Feb 2017

That's a pipe dream.

To begin with while the US imports 60% of it's oil, we only get 17% of that from the ME. Even if the Chinese could take control of ME oil we would hardly be at their beck and call. (https://www.grammarly.com/blog/beck-and-call-or-beckon-call/).

China has the largest standing army in the world which gives them the advantage in a land war anywhere in their vicinity, BUT they do not have the capability to move - and support - an army large enough to defeat the US and it's allies in the Mideast. How many men do you think they would have to move along that overland route? How many tanks? How much artillery? How many trucks will it take to keep that army supplied? How many tons of supplies will have to be moved along that route every day to keep that army in the field?

On edit, having seen more of your posts: The PLA is 2,285,00, not 200 million. That 2,285,000 includes ground forces, naval forces, air force, reserve forces and strategic forces. The US military is 2,100,000

The war that we fight with the Chinese will be primarily a naval and air war fought in the China Seas and western Pacific. China will be defeated.

You are right on this point: "If nukes get used, we ALL will be losers" And that's a very real possibility if the shooting starts.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
16. China will not be defeated. It will be the start of World War III.
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 02:32 PM
Feb 2017

We will ALL be defeated.

Chinese fallback plans are the use of nuclear weapons against the United States, just like ours was against the Warsaw Pact during the Cold War.

You can kiss most the continental United States goodbye in a war with China, along with most of China and Russia (if they get involved).

All roads of large scale modern warfare lead to the use of nuclear weapons.

DK504

(3,847 posts)
8. If China keeps going the way it has
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 01:33 PM
Feb 2017

they will rival the US soon. Chump of course no thinking about Russia that WILL come to China's aid, throwing our economy in to a spiral we wouldn't return form for a generation.

China doesn't have problem with starting a shooting war to prove their dominance in the world.

roamer65

(36,744 posts)
14. Yes, the Russians are firmly in bed with the Chinese.
Sun Feb 5, 2017, 02:11 PM
Feb 2017

In the event of a shooting war with the Chinese, they will side with their SCO buddy.

 

hollowdweller

(4,229 posts)
6. One of the complaints about Clinton
Sat Feb 4, 2017, 01:12 PM
Feb 2017

From many Trump supporters I know, was that she was a hawk and would get us into a war.

Just like Trumps exploitation of Clinton's weakness because of her Wall Street ties it seems now Trump is both the hawk and the one friendly to Wall Street.

Where are the head lines that say this??

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