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bananas

(27,509 posts)
Thu Feb 9, 2017, 09:26 PM Feb 2017

Cleaner Robot Pulled From Fukushima Reactor Due to Radiation

Source: Associated Press

A remote-controlled "cleaning" robot that entered one of three wrecked Fukushima reactor containment chambers Thursday had to be pulled out before completing its mission due to camera glitches most likely caused by high radiation.

<snip>

The robot went only partway on a narrow bridge into a space under the core that TEPCO wants to inspect closely. It crawled down the passage while blowing off some debris with a water spray and peeling them with a scraper on its head, and about two hours later, the two cameras on the robot suddenly developed a lot of noise and its image quickly darkened — a sign of a mechanical glitch from high radiation.

<snip>

The robot is designed to withstand up to 1,000 Sieverts of radiation, and its two-hour endurance roughly matched the estimated radiation level of 650 Sieverts based on noise analysis of the images transmitted by the robot-mounted cameras. That's less than 1 percent of radiation levels inside a running reactor, but still would kill a person almost instantly.

<snip>

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/cleaner-robot-pulled-fukushima-reactor-due-radiation-45369788

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NNadir

(33,512 posts)
4. It saved 1.8 million lives that would have been lost to air pollution.
Thu Feb 9, 2017, 09:51 PM
Feb 2017

Despite the foolish and dangerous opinion that nuclear power is not safe, the death toll from air pollution, about which anti-nukes couldn't give a rat's ass, kills seven million people per year. That's 19,000 people per day. In more than half a century of commercial operations, nuclear power has not killed as many people as will die in the next 48 hours from air pollution, which nuclear energy does not produce.

The great climate scientist Jim Hansen explained how nuclear energy saves lives in irrefutable figures in one of the world's most prominent environmental scientific journals.

Prevented Mortality and Greenhouse Gas Emissions from Historical and Projected Nuclear Power

It is therefore very likely more people have died from the air pollution generated by people running computers powered by gas and coal to whine about Fukushima than have died from radiation.

How many people died from radiation from Fukushima again? Any numbers?

Do the numbers compare to the number of people who died from collapsing buildings and drownings in the tsuami and earthquake? You know that people drowned and were crushed by buildings don't you? Do you give a shit? Why don't you tell me why coastal cities are safe again?

The selective attention, the scientific illiteracy and the concern for the operation of a single robot as expressed in this very foolish report is the reason that climate change is rapidly going out of control, as of 2015-2017, at the fastest rate ever observed..

Nuclear energy, invented and promoted by some of the finest minds who ever graced this planet, was the last best hope of the human race. Unfortunately, as is the case with many other things, fear, ignorance and stupidity prevailed to prevent it from doing what it might have done, if the general public had brains, which clearly it doesn't.

Have a nice day tomorrow.

thesquanderer

(11,986 posts)
6. The number I saw re: air pollution was about 5.5 million...
Thu Feb 9, 2017, 10:21 PM
Feb 2017

...but even then, it's concentrated in certain countries with the worst issues. In the U.S., the figure is about 80,000 premature deaths per year, compared to well over a million in China. So then, when weighing what increased risk may come along with the decision, nuclear power might make more sense in China (offsetting an existing high-incident problem) than in the U.S. (where the number of premature deaths potentially being offset is relatively small to begin with). We do not yet know how many people may die prematurely from the radiation at Fukushima.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
7. Um, let's leave aside the claim that 80,000 deaths in the US is trivial.
Thu Feb 9, 2017, 11:05 PM
Feb 2017
You don't know how many people might die prematurely from Fukushima, but there are no rational scientists who believe that the figure will match the number of people who will die in the next 8 hours from air pollution.

The risk of radiation has been studied for more than half a century, in many thousands of scientific publications, and there is no evidence, absolutely none, that the risk will be anything like the risk of air pollution in the next 24 hours.

I can cite a reference, the comprehensive report on human mortality from all risk factors, for my seven million figure for air pollution deaths, which has recently been accepted by WHO, displacing their earlier estimate of 3.3 million deaths per year.



It is here: A comparative risk assessment of burden of disease and injury attributable to 67 risk factors and risk factor clusters in 21 regions, 1990–2010: a systematic analysis for the Global Burden of Disease Study 2010 (Lancet 2012, 380, 2224–60) For air pollution mortality figures see Table 3, page 2238 and the text on page 2240. The study was the most comprehensive examination of the causes of human mortality and morbidity ever conducted; it was funded by the Gates foundation.

No where, absolutely nowhere, does it list "nuclear power plant" operations as a major risk factor for human disease, and it gets to a fairly low level, for instance reporting on the risk of occupational cadmium exposure and things like that.

About half of the deaths are from outdoor air pollution, and half from indoor air pollution, and while it is true that the hot spots are in Asia for deaths of both types, that may be because, among other reasons, the United States has been for nearly half a century the world's largest producer of nuclear energy, although there are many stupid people who are trying to shut our reactors because, well, there's no other way to put it, they're dumbbells.

Since the loss of life in the United States from nuclear operations is as close to zero as any major energy technology can be, I would say that it's exceedingly ignorant to say that it is doesn't make sense here because the death rate is "only" 80,000 people per year. That's pretty cold. I'm not crediting your unreferenced figure by the way, but I'm saying if it were true, it would still make a case that nuclear energy makes sense here.

That's 200 people per day, a million people every 12 years or so. If 200 people per day died from radiation on the entire planet - they don't - millions of tons of coal and gas would be burned by stupid anti-nukes claiming that the world was ending.

Hell, we have assholes burning gas and coal generated electricity to complain that a robot failed.

That's absurd, so absurd that it defies understanding.

thesquanderer

(11,986 posts)
9. I agree with most of what you say...
Thu Feb 9, 2017, 11:33 PM
Feb 2017

Last edited Fri Feb 10, 2017, 09:06 AM - Edit history (2)

...I'm just saying that I think numbers should take into account geography.

i.e. when you say...

"You don't know how many people might die prematurely from Fukushima, but there are no rational scientists who believe that the figure will match the number of people who will die in the next 8 hours from air pollution."

I'd say that, in evaluating risk/reward if you will of Fukushima, the question isn't how that number compares to how many people over the entire planet will die prematurely from air pollution in the next 8 hours (Fukushima did not power the entire planet), but rather, the more relevant comparison would be how many people in the vicinity of Fukushima will die prematurely from radiation exposure compared to how many would have died from increased air pollution if Fukushima had not displaced other forms of energy.

Of course, we don't know the answer, but the point is, you're comparing global statistics with location-specific risk.

So to get back to the U.S., I'm not saying that 80k is trivial, I was just trying to make a point about how it's misleading to apply global figures. So to drill down even further, the 80k number in the U.S. is, I assume, not even distributed... there are probably more pollution related deaths in Los Angeles than in Maine. Therefore the benefit of nuclear power specifically in reduction of overall death rate from air pollution may be pretty significant in LA, but not so much in Maine.

(ETA: Related to that, if the pollution in an area is largely from cars, how would more nuclear power in the area help reduce those deaths anyway?)

BTW, the 80k figure is mentioned at http://time.com/4219575/air-pollution-deaths/

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
12. First of all, it DOES make sense to compare Fukushima with world wide air pollution deaths.
Sat Feb 11, 2017, 12:07 AM
Feb 2017

Last edited Sat Feb 11, 2017, 07:14 PM - Edit history (2)

This is because Fukushima and Chernobyl are the only two reactor failures in the history of more than half a century of nuclear operations to release significant amounts of radioactive materials to the environment.

We now have many thousands of reactor-years of experience and that's it, two major failures on the entire planet. We accumulate 1000 reactor years about every two and a half years, and we've been running with more than 400 reactors on the planet for more than three decades.

Therefore we have an experimental failure rate, an observed failure rate. I note also that from these failures we can make engineering decisions that will prevent their recurrence, much as we do when aircraft fail.

Secondly, the Nobel Laureate Burton Richter called out the tiresome anti-nuke moron Mark Z. Jacobson on exactly this point, a comparison of Fukushima with the what the death toll would have been in Japan if Japan had used dangerous fossil fuels rather than nuclear energy, including the event at Fukushima in comparison.

Richter's paper is here: Opinion on “Worldwide health effects of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear accident” by J. E. Ten Hoeve and M. Z. Jacobson, Energy Environ. Sci., 2012, 5, DOI: 10.1039/c2ee22019a (Energy Environ. Sci., 2012,5, 8758-8759)

The paper may behind a firewall, and so I will quote the introductory text here.

What struck me first on reading the TenHoeve–Jacobson (T–J) paper was how small the consequences of the radiation release from the Fukushima reactor accident are projected to be compared to the devastation wrought by the giant earthquake and tsunami that struck Japan on March 11, 2011. The quake and tsunami left 20 000 people dead, over a million buildings damaged and a huge number of homeless. This paper concludes that there will eventually be a 15-130-1100 fatalities(130 is the mean value and the other numbers are upper and lower bounds)from the radiation released from reactor failures in what is regarded as the second worst nuclear accident in the history of nuclear power. It made me wonder what the consequences might have been had Japan never used any nuclear power. My rough analysis finds that health effects, including mortality, would have been much worse with fossil fuel used to generate the same amount of electricity as was nuclear generated. This conclusion will surely draw fire since it flies in the face of what many believe, and of new policy directions some propose for Japan and Germany.


He notes that in this event, living in a coastal city - with nothing about reactors being involved was more dangerous than the reactors, even accepting the upper bound figures used by the dullard anti-nuke Jacobson, was much worse when one looks at the factors that didn't involve the reactor than the putative outcome (according to Jacobson) that did involve the reactor.

It's pretty funny that none of the people, including Jacobson, who want to ban nuclear energy - which in my view would a crime against humanity - are even remotely interested in the deaths related to living in coastal cities, neither in the Fukushima event nor in the much larger case of the Indonesian tsunami of 2004, which killed 250,000 people. This is equivalent to the fact that they don't give a rat's ass that 70 million people die every decade from air pollution.

I note that even using the upper bound for the figures estimated by the anti-nuke idiot Jacobson, 1100 people dying prematurely from radiation, given that 13-14 people die every minute from air pollution, assuming 7 million deaths worldwide every year, the maximum total deaths attributed to radiation from Fukushima by a prominent, if mindless, anti-nuke amounts to about 80 minutes of air pollution deaths.

Now, if we had a Fukushima type event once a week somewhere on the planet, the death toll still would be minor, again using the fool Jacobson's figures, compared to air pollution.

But we don't have a Fukushima event every week.

As it happens, there are many papers in the primary scientific literature that state that there may be some additional cancer deaths from Fukushima, but that they will probably not be detectable since they will be overwhelmed by the statistical noise of normal cancer deaths, many of which in fact derive from air pollution. In fact, it is reasonable to argue that any such signal might be equally well attributed to the fact that Japan foolishly shut its reactors and began burning far more dangerous fossil fuels after the Fukushima event.

The case has been made in many ways that the fear of radiation, encouraged and whipped up by blithering idiots who lack any kind of scientific training whatsoever, was worse than the radiation itself.

Here is one such paper from the open source peer reviewed journal PLoS:

Was the Risk from Nursing-Home Evacuation after the Fukushima Accident Higher than the Radiation Risk?

As far as I'm concerned, as stated earlier, the anti-nuke community on this planet are the intellectual equivalents of creationists, except that creationists generally aren't responsible for 70 million deaths every ten years.

It's, um, criminal. Their ignorance kills people.

Have a nice weekend.

NNadir

(33,512 posts)
5. Um...people will burn electricity generated by gas and coal to complain mindlessly...
Thu Feb 9, 2017, 10:20 PM
Feb 2017

...on their computers about a robot that needs to be redesigned.

In the next hour, 800 people will die from air pollution. Apparently there are people on this planet who believe this is less important than a robot failing in a containment building.

One hears this crap all the time, but one doesn't really want to believe it.

If the interior of a volcano is inaccessible to a robot, that doesn't mean the volcano is deadly. It's only deadly if people jump into it.

The same is true of the containment building at Fukushima. The engineers are working on developing solutions for removing the melted fuel, but otherwise the situation is fairly stable. They're sending in robots, and evaluating how the robots perform. If they don't perform, they need to redesign the robot.

The fuel is cooling. All of the I-131 had decayed to xenon. 0.04% of the cerium-144 present on the day the reactor failed has now decayed to neodymium-144. Only 13.1% of the cesium-134 in the reactor remains and so on...

90-percent

(6,829 posts)
8. Happy to see on this thread
Thu Feb 9, 2017, 11:31 PM
Feb 2017

that nuclear is now a very safe, benign source of energy. I always thought spent nuke material must be stored safely for hundreds of thousands of years, in vessels that will maintain their integrity for that same amount of time.


If there are no longer any safety issues with nuclear power, I say nukes baby nukes.

-90%

Nitram

(22,791 posts)
10. An interesting challenge: design a robot with video cameras that can withstand the
Fri Feb 10, 2017, 11:40 AM
Feb 2017

level of radiation inside a nuclear reactor.

Rural_Progressive

(1,105 posts)
11. Taking risks with nuclear power should no longer be an issue
Fri Feb 10, 2017, 12:36 PM
Feb 2017

Current renewable technologies are capable of generating the power necessary to handle the vast majority of electrical needs.

What is missing is the storage technology to level out the power generation curves inherent in most renewable energy technologies. Imagine if the same focus was put on discovering and implementing the necessary technology that was put into the Manhattan Project or the Space Race.

What is lacking isn't the ability to create the technology necessary to store the energy generated by renewables it is will to do so. With the Canadians and Germans claiming to have a usable fusion technology that could be online by 2030 and the surge in solar, wind, geothermal, tidal, and other non-destructive energy generating technologies the days of fission are past.

As a species if we want a comfortable place to live for future generations we have to get our collective heads out of our collective arses and ditch polluting, destructive, potentially cataclysmic methods of generating energy and move on.

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