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JudyM

(29,233 posts)
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:15 AM Mar 2017

Neanderthal dental tartar reveals plant-based diet and drugs

Source: The Guardian

A diet of pine nuts, mushrooms and moss might sound like modernist cuisine, but it turns out it was standard fare for Spanish Neanderthals. Researchers studying the teeth of the heavy-browed hominids have discovered that while Neanderthals in Belgium were chomping on woolly rhinoceros, those further south were surviving on plants and may even have used naturally occurring painkillers to ease toothache.
...

Writing in the journal Nature, Dobney and an international team of colleagues describe how they analysed ancient DNA – from microbes and food debris – preserved in the dental tartar, or calculus, of three Neanderthals dating from 42,000 to 50,000 years ago. Two of the individuals were from the El Sidrón cave in Spain while one was from the Spy Cave in Belgium.

The results reveal that northern Neanderthals had a wide-ranging diet, with evidence of a mushroom known as grey shag in their tartar, together with traces of woolly rhinoceros and wild sheep. By contrast Neanderthals from El Sidrón showed no evidence of meat eating – instead they appear to have survived on a mixture of forest moss, pine nuts and a mushroom known as split gill.

The difference was further backed up by DNA-based analysis of the diversity and make-up of microbial communities that had lived in the Neanderthals’ mouths.
...
One of the Spanish Neanderthals is known to have had a painful dental abscess, while analysis of the tartar from the same individual yielded evidence of a parasite known to cause diarrhoea in humans.

To cope, the researchers add, the unfortunate individual might have been self-medicating. While previous work has suggested the El Sidrón Neanderthals might have exploited yarrow and chamomile, the tartar of the unwell individual shows evidence of poplar, which contains the active ingredient of aspirin, salicylic acid, and a species of penicillium fungus, suggesting the Neanderthal might have benefited from a natural source of antibiotics.

“Potentially this is evidence of more sophisticated behaviour in terms of knowledge of medicinal plants,” said Dobey. “The idea that Neanderthals were a bit simple and just dragging their knuckles around is one that has gone a long time ago, certainly in the anthropological world.”

Read more: https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/mar/08/neanderthal-dental-tartar-reveals-plant-based-diet-and-drugs

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Neanderthal dental tartar reveals plant-based diet and drugs (Original Post) JudyM Mar 2017 OP
Dirty hippies IronLionZion Mar 2017 #1
Dirty hippies and their orgies -- LuvNewcastle Mar 2017 #9
Sweet! IronLionZion Mar 2017 #33
Only if you think your next trip is on aspirin and antibiotics. Igel Mar 2017 #11
My next trip is on a plant based diet IronLionZion Mar 2017 #34
You mean tartar can last 50,000 years!!!! LeftInTX Mar 2017 #2
Yeah, if you don't want to be embarrassed when paleontologists dig you up, lagomorph777 Mar 2017 #40
How odd, other skeletal remains have indicated a largely meat based diet Warpy Mar 2017 #3
They probably had some people that understood their environment, plant and animal brewens Mar 2017 #6
Most of the Neanderthal remains are from late. Igel Mar 2017 #14
Huh? Warpy Mar 2017 #16
Yeah ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #21
I think dogs were important lagomorph777 Mar 2017 #41
Yeah, there was an article recently about that ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #59
Igel, nice info about language. Thanks. Interesting distinction between "most" and "a majority". ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #28
51% of something would be a majority--but not "most." tblue37 Mar 2017 #54
in English, I meant. Merriam-webster, that sort of thing ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #58
Interesting! JudyM Mar 2017 #17
I wonder if they found any ganja, magic mushrooms, or amanita muscaria hollowdweller Mar 2017 #4
OMG - I forgot this thing even existed LeftInTX Mar 2017 #13
I read a long time ago ProudLib72 Mar 2017 #5
100 grams of pine nuts have 670 calories meadowlander Mar 2017 #15
Being a hunter-gatherer means constant foraging, eating as you go. When the hunters managed Hekate Mar 2017 #18
That reminds me of a film I saw ProudLib72 Mar 2017 #19
okay, believable -- ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #25
Yeah, it doesn't add up TexasBushwhacker Mar 2017 #24
KNR Thank you! Lucinda Mar 2017 #7
I chewed some wild root once. littlemissmartypants Mar 2017 #8
Some wild root -- You couldn't be more specific, give more details? :-) ColemanMaskell Mar 2017 #23
I wish I could. littlemissmartypants Mar 2017 #27
Kicking. littlemissmartypants Mar 2017 #10
It's really provocative, isn't it! calimary Mar 2017 #26
It is & provacative for so many reasons calimary! littlemissmartypants Mar 2017 #48
So do I, littlemisssmartypants. calimary Mar 2017 #51
littlemissmartypants Mar 2017 #53
Fun and interesting comments all around, DUers have depth. Glad I posted it! JudyM Mar 2017 #37
Absolutely. This is the best community on the web, no contest. littlemissmartypants Mar 2017 #49
Thanks for link! burrowowl Mar 2017 #12
K&R Solly Mack Mar 2017 #20
Video: 10 signs you are a Neanderthal Petrushka Mar 2017 #22
I have about every trait except the receding chin, big nose, or brow ridges! diane in sf Mar 2017 #29
Fascinating. Thanks. . nt Bernardo de La Paz Mar 2017 #30
Sure! I caught it on NPR driving home and thought it was fascinating, too. JudyM Mar 2017 #38
I have to stop get the red out Mar 2017 #31
Certainly more moral sarge43 Mar 2017 #32
Please the Spanish Neanderthals ate Tappas and their cousins from Belgium ate waffles Botany Mar 2017 #35
Not exactly. I believe it varies between 1% and 3%. We all have a little Neanderthal. Nitram Mar 2017 #44
The headline is a little misleading. the research actually showed that some Neanderthals were Nitram Mar 2017 #36
Agreed, "some" would be more accurate. JudyM Mar 2017 #39
I heard a good piece about this yesterday on NPR with interviews of the scientists involved. Nitram Mar 2017 #43
Yes! That was the source of inspiration to post about it on DU. Heard it on the way home. JudyM Mar 2017 #47
I wonder if future paleontologists will decipher the Great Trump Extinction Event lagomorph777 Mar 2017 #42
The GTEE: the extinction of grace, class, intelligence and knowledge. Nitram Mar 2017 #45
Hey, be glad you are related to Neanderthals oldcynic Mar 2017 #46
Agree. Fascinating stuff. littlemissmartypants Mar 2017 #50
The samples come from the last millennia of the species. Orsino Mar 2017 #52
Not sure about that logic, Orsino - we have no evidence either way... JudyM Mar 2017 #55
The logic's sound enough. Orsino Mar 2017 #56
This is really so fascinating! Kimchijeon Mar 2017 #57

LuvNewcastle

(16,844 posts)
9. Dirty hippies and their orgies --
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:43 AM
Mar 2017

Always throwing orgies with their low brows looking around at all of the sights. Even today they still spread their filth.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
11. Only if you think your next trip is on aspirin and antibiotics.
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:46 AM
Mar 2017

"Hey, man, I'm losing my buzz. Pass the aspirin. Heh-heh."

"That green mold's giving me the munchies."

For those for whom "drugs" must mean only "mind-altering and mood-altering substances." Sort of a narrow definition, but if that's what fits your thinking, go for it.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
40. Yeah, if you don't want to be embarrassed when paleontologists dig you up,
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 11:58 AM
Mar 2017

Brush your teeth.
The underwear probably doesn't matter very much.

Warpy

(111,249 posts)
3. How odd, other skeletal remains have indicated a largely meat based diet
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:22 AM
Mar 2017

I imagine they were like everybody else and just ate whatever they could get that didn't try to eat them first, and some that did. The relatively balmy Iberian Peninsula would likely have yielded more plant foods than territory closer to the glacial boundaries.

Other things we know are that they lived in fixed territories and were ambush hunters, unlike Homo Sap, who was a chase hunter and followed herds of game for long distances.

brewens

(13,575 posts)
6. They probably had some people that understood their environment, plant and animal
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:38 AM
Mar 2017

species that would rival the knowledge of our finest minds. PHD's in wilderness survival. Not all of them but some.

Igel

(35,300 posts)
14. Most of the Neanderthal remains are from late.
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:51 AM
Mar 2017

Consider what linguists know and routinely try to pretend isn't true.

Linguists rush to study nearly dead languages, those spoken by a handful of survivors--perhaps 5, perhaps 500. By the time your community's down to 500, much less 5, the range of use is restricted. It's not a vibrant language with a wide range of styles. It's not used outside of the house. Most of the speakers have a restricted code, using a limited set of the grammar that once existed; they have limited vocabulary. Often they're all fluent in at least one other language, and most of the time that other language is dominant and the one they use not just in a majority of places, but in most places. So their phonology and phonetics are also drifting. Even Queen Elizabeth's language has shifted from when she was 30, although she wouldn't acknowledge it, and it's her one real useful language.

With animal populations, islands of populations that are dying out show a lot of genetic drift. They show the influences of what's causing them to die out. This species went extinct there for a reason. The assumption here is that it had nothing to do with diet.

Warpy

(111,249 posts)
16. Huh?
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:57 AM
Mar 2017

Various reasons have been given for their extinction. The most likely is that they were already under pressure from frequent climate changes as the ice advanced and retreated many times during the last Ice Age. They'd have been a little less resilient with fixed territories. A second is that we absorbed the remaining Neanderthals into our own species, something borne out by DNA analysis. A third theory says the final nail in the species coffin was delivered by a major eruption of the Campi Flegrei which produced climatic fallout sufficient to wipe out the remaining genetically distinct groups.

Diet itself is unlikely to be the culprit. It simply appears that different groups had different diets, just the same as our own species.

ColemanMaskell

(783 posts)
21. Yeah
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:12 AM
Mar 2017

Lots of nice theories, aren't there?
The theory I like best is that Homo Sapiens survived because we had dogs.
Okay, that ties in with diet, but -- hey, we had dogs. Good enough for me.

ColemanMaskell

(783 posts)
59. Yeah, there was an article recently about that
Wed Mar 15, 2017, 05:35 PM
Mar 2017

and looking it up I find there were a number of articles, because there was a book

The Invaders: How Humans and Their Dogs Drove Neanderthals to Extinction
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674736764

and it is referenced in the National Geographic article (and probably others)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2015/03/150304-neanderthal-shipman-predmosti-wolf-dog-lionfish-jagger-pogo-ngbooktalk/




ColemanMaskell

(783 posts)
28. Igel, nice info about language. Thanks. Interesting distinction between "most" and "a majority".
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:31 AM
Mar 2017

"not just in a majority of places, but in most places. " Hunh. Wonder what that means.

tblue37

(65,336 posts)
54. 51% of something would be a majority--but not "most."
Fri Mar 10, 2017, 03:22 PM
Mar 2017

Most is more than merely a majority, though it is also a majority.

ColemanMaskell

(783 posts)
58. in English, I meant. Merriam-webster, that sort of thing
Wed Mar 15, 2017, 05:21 PM
Mar 2017
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/most

Definition of most

1 : greatest in quantity, extent, or degree * the most ability

2 : the majority of * most people

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
5. I read a long time ago
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:35 AM
Mar 2017

that Neanderthals needed to consume 5,000 calories a day. I don't see how that is possible on pine nuts, mushrooms, and moss.

meadowlander

(4,394 posts)
15. 100 grams of pine nuts have 670 calories
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:54 AM
Mar 2017

but you'd go mad picking them all out.

I guess the calorie needs would depend a lot on the lifestyle. Nomadic hunters would burn 5,000 a day, but if you lived in a fixed cave next to, presumably, a very large pine forest and sat around picking out pine nuts all day, and lived in a more moderate climate where you didn't need stacks of firewood year round you wouldn't burn that much.

They must have eaten other things too that aren't detectable in plaque or that the scientist weren't testing for, like wood larvae or worms.

Hekate

(90,648 posts)
18. Being a hunter-gatherer means constant foraging, eating as you go. When the hunters managed
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:03 AM
Mar 2017

....to bring home some meat, typically the family/tribe would gorge on this high quality protein and fat, and then resume foraging. This is what modern anthropologists have observed anyway. You need lots of calories for that life, and if most of of the diet is plant based, you just keep moving.

Farming was a tremendous innovation for most people.

ProudLib72

(17,984 posts)
19. That reminds me of a film I saw
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 01:19 AM
Mar 2017

in Anthropology class about a tribe in Africa who basically fast for days when they don't have food immediately available. When they decide to go on a hunt, they eat some ridiculous amount of meat, like ten or twelve pounds per person (yes, all within a couple of hours), directly after the hunt to save them from carrying more weight back than they have to. I remember the professor of that class lived with the tribe for a few months, and he developed their eating habits. When he got back to the states, the all-you-can-eat places didn't like that he could consume so much at once.

ColemanMaskell

(783 posts)
25. okay, believable --
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:21 AM
Mar 2017

Ten or twelve pounds is about half of a large holiday turkey, or an entire small holiday turkey. I can believe a person could eat that amount. And, having observed people even slightly, can easily believe they would do so if it meant avoiding work . . .



TexasBushwhacker

(20,175 posts)
24. Yeah, it doesn't add up
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:20 AM
Mar 2017

With the number of calories they needed, they would need fat and protein from something and the most likely candidate is meat. They couldn't eat most beans or grains because they didn't cook.

In any case, the findings of this study were based on 2 subjects, so it's not exactly a huge sample size.

littlemissmartypants

(22,632 posts)
8. I chewed some wild root once.
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:43 AM
Mar 2017

I'd do it again if I knew how to find it. In about 10 -15 minutes I started to get a sensation I would describe as resembling levitation. I'd definitely do it again.



littlemissmartypants

(22,632 posts)
27. I wish I could.
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:29 AM
Mar 2017

I wasn't entrusted with the details. I sincerely wish I could share the scientific name of the flora. It was root. It was wild. We chewed it. It was fun. I'd do it again. That's all I've got. We need a horticulturist, ColemanMaskell.

littlemissmartypants

(22,632 posts)
48. It is & provacative for so many reasons calimary!
Fri Mar 10, 2017, 04:04 AM
Mar 2017


I believe we will be able to learn even more as additional remains are found. There Is so much for us to learn from, yet uncovered ancestral remnants. Advances in science, changes in world topography, climate change advances and exponential population change, we'll see more "brushes with" the remains of our ancestors and their friends, I feel sure. The potential for analysis of these small artifacts, like teeth, are what I would call the high value targets in our ancestral espionage. That's why we see them leading us to the remarkable data sets we have now. It's very exciting. But I am a nerd that loves anthropology, geneology and paleontology.

Great post JudyM.


♡lmsp

calimary

(81,220 posts)
51. So do I, littlemisssmartypants.
Fri Mar 10, 2017, 02:31 PM
Mar 2017

I'm one of those nerds, too.

So's my husband. I couldn't have married anybody else but another nerd.

I explain it in terms of the original Star Trek series. The Team Kirk people versus the Team Spock people. I was always Team Spock. From the get-go.

Petrushka

(3,709 posts)
22. Video: 10 signs you are a Neanderthal
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 02:17 AM
Mar 2017

Last edited Thu Mar 9, 2017, 03:31 AM - Edit history (1)






BBC Documentary: Neanderthals Human Extinction






10 Amazing Discoveries About Neanderthals

diane in sf

(3,913 posts)
29. I have about every trait except the receding chin, big nose, or brow ridges!
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:23 AM
Mar 2017

And I know I have a high percentage of Neanderthal according to 23andMe.

Botany

(70,501 posts)
35. Please the Spanish Neanderthals ate Tappas and their cousins from Belgium ate waffles
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 09:26 AM
Mar 2017

BTW we are all 3% neanderthal



Nitram

(22,791 posts)
36. The headline is a little misleading. the research actually showed that some Neanderthals were
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 09:36 AM
Mar 2017

vegetarian and others had a diet that consisted mainly of meat. It depended on where they lived and what food was available.

lagomorph777

(30,613 posts)
42. I wonder if future paleontologists will decipher the Great Trump Extinction Event
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 12:04 PM
Mar 2017

...that will end the Anthropocene Era?

They will puzzle over how an apparently advanced species didn't notice the oceans rising and the mass extinctions of vital species.

oldcynic

(385 posts)
46. Hey, be glad you are related to Neanderthals
Thu Mar 9, 2017, 04:25 PM
Mar 2017

Speaking as a (formerly) red headed, freckled, Scots/Irish/Viking, I'm proud of my heritage. Also, recently read that we acquired certain immunities from our cousins which were advantageous. We owe them a lot.
Wish we could learn more about Denisovans who were apparently interacting with sapiens (so-called) in Asia.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
52. The samples come from the last millennia of the species.
Fri Mar 10, 2017, 02:35 PM
Mar 2017

Ten thousand years later, they were gone. We can suspect that earlier Neanderthals might have had different diets.

Orsino

(37,428 posts)
56. The logic's sound enough.
Sat Mar 11, 2017, 07:15 PM
Mar 2017

The species was around for a quarter-million years. Even assuming the diets of these Neanderthals were typical of the time, they don't tell us much about the heyday of these hominids, when they weren't being stressed to the edge of extinction by hungry, hungry Homo sapiens.

Prehistoric people got their calories wherever they could, and when we showed up to swamp them with number, I suspect that changed the diet of the less successful species.

Kimchijeon

(1,606 posts)
57. This is really so fascinating!
Sat Mar 11, 2017, 10:25 PM
Mar 2017

I am really intrigued, I love learning about ancient human roots, and new findings like this.

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