Pope signals he's open to married Catholic men becoming priests
Source: CNN
Pope Francis has said he is open to married men becoming priests to combat the Roman Catholic Church's shortage of clergy.
In an interview with German newspaper Die Zeit, Pope Francis said the lack of Catholic priests was an "enormous problem" for the Church, and indicated he would be open to a change in the rules governing eligibility for the priesthood.
"We need to consider if 'viri probati' could be a possibility," he said. "If so, we would need to determine what duties they could undertake, for example, in remote communities."
Viri probati is the Latin term for "tested men" or married men of outstanding faith and virtue.
Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2017/03/10/europe/pope-married-men-priests/index.html
But we can still discriminate against the Gays, right?
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Demit
(11,238 posts)
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)But only regular tradition. There are already married priests. It is allowed if a married Protestant minister or Orthodox priest converts to the Roman Rite. I had a married priest in Alaska at one time. It is also allowed in Orthodox Catholicism, but Bishops must be celibate.
There will never be women priests because it is considered Sacred Tradition, handed directly down from Christ. While He had women disciples, none were officially called an Apostle.
No Pope has authority to change Sacred Tradition. It will not happen.
Demit
(11,238 posts)What men said that Christ said. We don't have anything that "Christ said" except as filtered through male chroniclers.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)is a female apostle.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)This is silly. I stated the reason according to the Church why no Pope can ever ordain women and you come up with some obscure reference thay has no context in this discussion.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)FYI.... before getting to the scrimmage just know I can read The Vulgate and the original greek.
I have to use a voice to text app for my failing sight.
Let's do this.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)And was not one of the 12. You know damned good and well my reference was to the 12 Apostles who followed Jesus and NOT others numbered afterwards. You also know how the Church was formed with Peter.
And I would love to do this. Nothing makes me laugh harder than Jesus mythologist because it's stupid to think that with all of the prophecies there were not MULTIPLE Jesuses running around and trying to minister near Galalie. There were probably a dozen or more.
Pilate's tablet was found. Ciaphis's ossuary was found with crucifixion nails in it and G. A. Wells, the most noted Jesus mythologist now believes in a an almost certain historical Jesus and the Q document. The forensic evidence clearly points to historical Jesus. Whether he was the son of God or not is certainly up for lots of debate. However only a fool would claim no historical Jesus.
Glad you can read the Vulgate in Greek. I can read it in Latin and Italian, English too. Looks like we have the Mediterranean covered.
Once you played the myth card I am out. Next will come the Hercules and Osiris bullshit card. Right?
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)You can rant all you want to me about virgins, shoes, and gourds. But to call Paul an apostle, but not Junia....or, from the Hebrew, Joanna, an apostle is an inconsistency.
I am sure there are relics, like the shroud. You know....the shroud which your Pope made a pilgrimage to. Let me know when the carbon dating...ie...the actual science...catches up.
Until then, remember that blasphemy is a victimless crime.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Why did G.A.Wells change his tune?
There is more evidence for a historical Jesus than not, but you cannot argue that point so you lob jabs trying to demean and belittle.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)made no reference to that myth, is, well, amusing on this Friday night.
I know that G.A. Wells is taking a dirt nap. If your omnipotent, and omniscient gods felt him pertinent to the current discussion, couldn't they resurrect him?
Again....I simply think your current narrative is inconsistent. No need for insults....just prove to me where your god Jesus forbade women.?
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)The way you respond is amusing. Maybe we should talk accent marks? Nah...
I think a certain fire witch may not have been as out there as I assumed.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I have not a clue as to whatever you are alluding to, and I generally suggest to men that they speak plainly to me.
WhiteTara
(29,704 posts)Just like everything else, Christianity killed off the matriarchal society (the old testament is full of "slewing".) Then they usurped the many stories of women and goddesses and turned them to their benefit. Old Saying: Who wins the war writes the history.
It has to do with the dying/rising god. And they turned that into the story of Jesus.
There are, however, important points of disagreement. The origins of Osiris are much debated,[41] and the basis for the myth of his death is also somewhat uncertain.[91] One influential hypothesis was given by the anthropologist James Frazer, who in 1906 said that Osiris, like other "dying and rising gods" across the ancient Near East, began as a personification of vegetation. His death and restoration, therefore, were based on the yearly death and re-growth of plants.[92] Many Egyptologists adopted this explanation. But in the late 20th century, J. Gwyn Griffiths, who extensively studied Osiris and his mythology, argued that Osiris originated as a divine ruler of the dead, and his connection with vegetation was a secondary development.[93] Meanwhile, scholars of comparative religion have criticized the overarching concept of "dying and rising gods", or at least Frazer's assumption that all these gods closely fit the same pattern.[92] More recently, the Egyptologist Rosalie David maintains that Osiris originally "personified the annual rebirth of the trees and plants after the [Nile] inundation."[94]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris_myth
My favorite Sumerian tale is of Inanna. There are stone tablets still in existence that tell her story.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)The obvious progression for the deity is that the Hebrews gender swapped and demonized the goddess. (Where the greeks and many others just stopped short at the gender swapping.) The demonization was relatively easy since she was a complicated goddess so you just had to take half of any given story and leave the rest out.
However the Jewsish sect that became christianity in borrowing from the crop of mystery religions that had sprung up in the Mediterranean ended up bringing her back in again, still gender swapped by no longer evil.
So you have Jesus and Satan both using in various places half of the iconography originally associated with her, and playing opposite roles in the religion. Which when you dig into the mythology is a very Inanna thing to do.
Even more interesting is that the first example of the "miracle of loves and fishes" in the mythology of the Ancient world is attributed to Kubaba. The only woman on the Sumerian King's List after she died her worship spread across the region and she was recognized as the goddess Hannahanna better known as Inanna.
WhiteTara
(29,704 posts)This is the most amazing book. These stories come from the tablets and it is all mind blowing. How Inanna descended into Underworld and how she rises.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_1_10?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=innana+queen+of+heaven+and+earth&sprefix=innana+qui%2Caps%2C1828&crid=3C3IE0985CSKB
You can read quite a bit on Amazon by clicking on the book. I got lost in reading it all again when I was looking this up for you.
Another book I consider incredibly important is the Great Cosmic Mother by Monica Sjoo and Barbara Mor
https://www.amazon.com/Great-Cosmic-Mother-Rediscovering-Religion/dp/0062507915/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1489349200&sr=8-1&keywords=the+great+cosmic+mother+rediscovering+the+religion+of+the+earth
"This classic exploration of the Goddess through time and throughout the world draws on religious, cultural, and archaeological sources to recreate the Goddess religion that is humanity’s heritage. Now, with a new introduction and full-color artwork, this passionate and important text shows even more clearly that the religion of the Goddess--which is tied to the cycles of women’s bodies, the seasons, the phases of the moon, and the fertility of the earth--was the original religion of all humanity."
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)You cannot switch gears and your singular drive leaks into everything. You can't turn it off. Can't shut it down. Can't work around it.
We could have had an interesting conversation on forensic evidence and a historical Jesus figure.
We could have discussed Sacred Tradition.
We could have discussed the Church's position on Apostolic Succession. We could have had an interesting discussion Mary Magdalene who probably has the strongest claim to being an Apostle of all women.
But plainly all you want to do is sneer "mythology" and do a little superior dance much like the Church Lady character you would mock.
Soooooo, plainly we are done.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)faith.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)I relate experiences to my work, just like most folks. However, you proved my point. Too bellicose to discuss anything, just wants to fight, fight, fight.
Happy hunting though. Hope you find a willing victim.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)I have absolutely no interest in fighting with you or discussing with you the finer points of fairytales. The churchsplaining was amusing, but having left the novitiate 30 years ago, completely unnecessary.
The manner in which you responded to me is a cautionary tale to any woman who wishes to participate in a meaningful way in the Church.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Comment and the demeaning tone. You reaped what you showed. Nice attempt trying to play the victim though. You came in on the fight. I gave it right back. No one did shit because of the Church or your gender. You behaved like an ass and were treated appropriately.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)As I have indicated, your personification of Matthew 28:19 is fair warning to any female who wishes to engage with the RC in any meaningful way.
I find your treatment of me to be a reminder to all that while Christians are called to behave as indicated in Matthew 5:44, the slightest criticism of their beliefs...especially any belief that points out the inherent sexism of the priesthood generates a reaction that mimics your gods behavior towards a fig tree.
Drahthaardogs
(6,843 posts)Act like a shit, get called on it, and then clutch the pearls...
The amazing thing is, all I did was present the Church's position. You never even asked if I AGREED with it, just started attacking.
So I gave it back. Then you claim misogyny. Funny.
Don't dish it out if you can't take it.
We are done.
msanthrope
(37,549 posts)
meow2u3
(24,761 posts)Clerical celibacy came about later as a church discipline AFAIK, but I'm not a doctor of the Church.
OKIsItJustMe
(19,938 posts)[font size=3]I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church at Cenchreae, ²so that you may welcome her in the Lord as is fitting for the saints, and help her in whatever she may require from you, for she has been a benefactor of many and of myself as well. ³Greet Prisca and Aquila, who work with me in Christ Jesus, ⁴and who risked their necks for my life, to whom not only I give thanks, but also all the churches of the Gentiles.
…[/font][/font]
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=356190146
[font size=3]²I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche to be of the same mind in the Lord. ³Yes, and I ask you also, my loyal companion,*help these women, for they have struggled beside me in the work of the gospel, together with Clement and the rest of my co-workers, whose names are in the book of life. [/font][/font]
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=356189737
[font size=3]Give my greetings to the brothers and sisters* in Laodicea, and to Nympha and the church in her house.[/font][/font]
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=356188407
[font size=3]⁸Deacons likewise must be serious, not double-tongued, not indulging in much wine, not greedy for money; ⁹they must hold fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience. ¹⁰And let them first be tested; then, if they prove themselves blameless, let them serve as deacons. ¹¹Women likewise must be serious, not slanderers, but temperate, faithful in all things. ¹²Let deacons be married only once, and let them manage their children and their households well; ¹³for those who serve well as deacons gain a good standing for themselves and great boldness in the faith that is in Christ Jesus.[/font][/font]
bucolic_frolic
(43,128 posts)All they do is close inner city churches and sell them off to developers
and gobble up virgin farmland to build new mortgaged palaces in the burbs,
all the while paying off lawsuits.
The flock pays for all of this, just like consumers pay for corporate headquarters
and extravagance.
Charity begins at home. In Trump's your-on-your-own America, there is no other choice.
HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)It happens in schools all of the time.
HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)Not eliminate
MountCleaners
(1,148 posts)People don't molest children because they aren't married. You are linking the two. This is the same reason bigots used to say that gays were more likely to molest children. Molestation is a crime of opportunity. It's more likely that child abusers choose to be priests because of access to kids.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/do-the-right-thing/201003/six-important-points-you-dont-hear-about-regarding-clergy-sexual
2. Clergy sexual abuse in the Catholic Church can't be blamed on celibacy. Not having sex doesn't make children the object of one's desire.
First, if Catholic clergy aren't more likely to be sex offenders than other clergy or men in general, then celibacy can't be blamed by iteself. Most sex offenders are not celibate clergy. Most are married or partnered. Furthermore, many men who don't have sex for a variety of reasons (e.g., no suitable partners, marital or relationship distress) don't turn to children for sexual gratification. They turn to other consenting adults. Think about it: If you don't have sex who becomes the object of your desire? Children or other adults?
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)Sounds as sincere as alleging a quest to find Dim-sun.
HoneyBadger
(2,297 posts)
WePurrsevere
(24,259 posts)it probably will help a bit with some other molestation issues as well as the shortage in priests.
It would also be a return to the way the Roman Catholic church was originally set up:
http://historynewsnetwork.org/article/696
Justice
(7,185 posts)
Yo_Mama
(8,303 posts)before conversion. Married priests/ministers from other branches of Christianity have become Catholic priests.
In earlier times, all regular Catholic priests could be married, although I think bishops and up could not.
There are different branches of Catholicism, such as Greek, Orthodox, etc, and I believe in most of them a regular parish priest may be married.
milestogo
(16,829 posts)
Warpy
(111,245 posts)They just have to be chaste, meaning no nooky with the wife. Usually they're widowers.
Married clergy were originally banned because they tended to leave their earthly property to wives and children and not to Mother Rome. If they allow married priests with living wives without that "chastity" provision, you can bet those priests will never advance in the hierarchy to the positions where they'd get richer.
Oh, and forget about women being priests. They're barely tolerated as nuns.
pamdb
(1,332 posts)Probably because they can't get enough single men
to enter the priesthood.
Paula Sims
(877 posts)I can't speak of other Byzantine Rite Catholics but Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic priests have been allowed to be married. The requirement is that they have to be married prior to taking their final priestly vows and cannot rise above priest (can't become Bishop or higher). Should they become widowed, they cannot remarry once having taken their final vows. Often their wives have jobs and my priest's wife is a pediatrician.
It's not an easy life - I dated a seminarian and almost married him before he died of an aortic tear so I do know a bit about it.
And never say never about women becoming priests. When we first got altar girls (20+ years ago) it was a shock to me and still is. It's nice.
spiderpig
(10,419 posts)He's trying to make the church relevant to the 21st century. He's humble and walks the walk.
Plus, I love that he took the name Francis. Remember, when he told the little boy grieving over the loss of his dog, that he would see him again in heaven? (I guess contrary to the given idea that animals don't have souls.)
BTW, I'm atheist.