Police kill armed teen student at Texas school

[sinkingfeeling]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/45870968/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/

BROWNSVILLE, Texas — Police shot and killed an armed 15-year-old student at a middle school in South Texas on Wednesday morning. No one else was injured.

Brownsville police detective J.J. Trevino said police got a call about 8 a.m. Wednesday that there was an individual with a weapon at Cummings Middle School. They found the 8th-grade student in a hallway and shot him.

The shooting remains under investigation. Brownsville is 280 miles south of San Antonio on the southern tip of Texas.

[WingDinger]

1. It better not be safety scissors.

[boppers]

60. Pellet gun. eom

[BenYehuda]

2. Did the boy attempt to shoot at them? If not this is cold blooded murder....if so..then its justifi

Simple question...did the boy try to shoot at them?

[barbtries]

3. my thought exactly.

was he just standing and holding a gun and they walked up and killed him? the story makes it sound like that. an 8th grader. damn

eta - read the article. they say that the kid "engaged" the police. maybe it was necessary.

[atreides1]

22. Define "engaged"

[barbtries]

26. i can't.

their wording.

[slackmaster]

6. I invented something once

[Islandlife]

9. LOL! Perfect. Please repost on a regular basis.

Very appropriate.

[LanternWaste]

13. Seemed as though a predicative question was asked

Seemed as though a predicative question was asked rather than a conclusion jumped...

But I suppose we do what we do.

[slackmaster]

23. There is a real difference between attempting to shoot someone and brandishing a weapon

However, either action may constitute justification for use of deadly force. Shooting someone who brandishes a weapon at you, and who subsequently dies as a result, is generally not regarded as murder.

Here's another article that includes information about the alleged brandishing:

http://www.charter.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9S27OA00%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1011

[Lone_Star_Dem]

7. Don't know. Local reports say he "engaged" the police.

No explanation as to what that means exactly, though.

[The Doctor.]

19. In conversation, no doubt.

He might have used a few big words what with that uppity middle-school education.

No wonder the cop felt threatened.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

21. The other station says he pointed the gun at them and they fired

He was reported by administrators at the school to the police for having a firearm on campus.

At the time of the shooting children are saying they were in their homeroom classes already, and they heard perhaps two or three gunshots.

No reason has been given for why he was still in the hallway.

There's no explanation as to how he got the gun past security on campus as of yet.

There's been no further mention of the other child they took into custody for questioning.

That's pretty much where this is at at the moment. In a couple of weeks no one will even be giving a second thought to this event anymore other than the boy's family, his friends and the police who shot him.

[slackmaster]

24. Here's an article that says he brandished a weapon...

http://www.charter.net/news/read.php?rip_id=%3CD9S27OA00%40news.ap.org%3E&ps=1011

[minavasht]

51. Can you please

clarify what you understand by "tried to shoot at them"?

Held the gun in hand?
Pointed the gun at them?
Pulled the trigger?

At which point would YOU shoot to stop him?

[BenYehuda]

69. It was a PELLET GUN...according to AP....

"...the boy...did not threaten any students or teachers, and no one else was hurt."

...those cops should be fired...they were never FIRED AT.......THEY SHOULD BE TRIED FOR MURDER ...eos.

[Quantess]

4. Wouldn't this have been a good opportunity to break out the taser?

Or a bean bag gun?

[cali]

5. uh no. given the history of school shooting in this country

it's sadly understandable.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

8. Given the history of gang activity there it's highly possible he wasn't planning a "Columbine" event

Not that anything's been formally released. It's just a possibility being discussed he was either going to shoot a rival or was looking to intimidate one into not shooting him.

[vminfla]

11. Given that he was a 15 year old eighth grader, he probably has a history of thuggery

If the student was 13 or 14 in the eighth grader, I would question the veracity of the police officers actions a little more. Given that he was 15 and held back, there is a higher probability that this student was a troublemaker.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

16. Meh. I wouldn't read too much into his age and grade just yet.

For all we know his birthday could have fallen late in the year and he's was only one grade behind. Which isn't that uncommon. Or he could have had a learning disability, or any number of other issues could be involved. We don't know.

Pretty much all we know for sure is the boy is dead. He was shot by the police. He had a gun in his possession on a middle school campus.

Time will fill in the missing details. Yet no matter how this evolves it's a tragedy one so young lost their life over whatever circumstances led up to this shooting.

[vminfla]

35. Facts into evidence

He was held back at least one year, maybe two.
The Brownsville school in question does have a reputation for gang activity
He had a gun
He engaged, in some way, armed police officers.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

43. Fact. It was a pellet gun.

[vminfla]

44. Pretty stupid to brandish a pellet gun in front of cops

If true, that was a very foolish move on the part of the 15 year old.

[Posteritatis]

34. Also given that he pointed a firearm at a cop. (nt)

[pocoloco]

41. Jesus fucking Christ!!

[LanternWaste]

14. What precisely makes this scenario a bad opportunity to use a taser?

"uh no..."

What precisely makes this scenario a bad opportunity to use a taser?

[hack89]

20. Because tasers have a very short range compared to a gun?

you are asking a policeman to get pretty close to someone with a gun. He could be shot before he was in taser range.

[provis99]

46. dude, it was a pellet gun.

those are even less dangerous than slingshots or yoyos.

[hack89]

48. Do you realize how much like a real gun a pellet gun looks like?

it is very hard to tell the difference.

[provis99]

49. only a willing moron couldn't tell the difference.

[hack89]

50. At a distance? nt

[bluevoter4life]

56. When staring down someone with a gun

I really don't think you're going to pay attention to what model it is. In law enforcement, a .45 is the same as a pellet game, which is the same as a painted water pistol. If you pull out any of the three, you will be shot. Period.

[slackmaster]

63. Let's try a thought experiment - Imagine someone is pointing this at you...

Real firearm or not?



How about this one?



Or this?



How about this one?



Or this?



Now add to the scenario that you are a police officer responding to a call about an armed remedial 15-year-old student at a middle school. The kid points any of the above at you. You have about .75 seconds to decide whether or not to shoot him with your known real gun.

How did you do?

[Atypical Liberal]

36. Taser against a firearm is a bad plan.

Tasers give one or two shots, and law-enforcement models have a maximum range of about 35 feet.

I personally would never deploy a taser against a lethal threat, such as someone pointing a firearm at me.

[minavasht]

54. Uh,

"don't bring a taser to a gunfight" comes to mind.
Tasers have very short range, under 20 ft, they require solid contact of the two probes in the body (i.e. if he had heavy clothing, it will be ineffective), most have only one shot (if you miss there is no time to reload).

[Orrex]

10. I propose that we draw ironclad conclusions about this before any facts are known.

Who's with me?

[vminfla]

12. Speculation is more fun

Let's do it the Nancy Grace way.

[Ian David]

15. Isn't that what the internet is for? n/t

[Doctor_J]

31. that's what I use it for

Seriously, if you want well-researched, factual information, tune into Fox "News"




...










....

[LanternWaste]

17. I propose rather that we discuss, wonder, consider and speculate

I propose rather that we discuss, wonder, consider and speculate-- a most benign form of interaction; and then form conclusions afterwards-..

[Orrex]

18. You're talking nonsense!

Ready! Fire! Aim!

[treestar]

33. Yes, we can just base them on the "fact" that all cops are

killer assholes.

[mainstreetonce]

25. If the student aimed a gun

If he aimed at police I have no problem with them firing.


I want to know how the student got the gun. If a family member allowed access to a weapon that person should be in jail for a long time.

Won't happen in Texas.

[crim son]

27. Firing, perhaps.

Firing to kill, no.

[slackmaster]

28. Only a murderer fires a weapon with intent to kill the target, even in self-defense.

You fire with the intent to stop a deadly attack. Proper training teaches you to stop shooting once the attack has been neutralized.

If the attacker happens to die, that is unfortunate but it should never have been the intent of the defensive shooter.

[vminfla]

29. Find a Shooting Class that does *Not* teach you to fire at center mass

No credible training class in the world would teach their students how to "wing" someone or shoot them in the leg.

[slackmaster]

32. They teach that because firing at center of mass is the most effective way to STOP an attacker

Nobody teaches students to aim for the head, or to keep firing until the attacker is dead.

No credible training class in the world would teach their students how to "wing" someone or shoot them in the leg.

Correct, because trying to do that is likely to result in a missed shot and failure to STOP the attacker.

Another thing they teach you in self-defense classes is how to behave when the police arrive after you have used deadly force in self-defense - Generally keep your mouth shut, don't brag, don't say anything that could be inferred as intent to kill the attacker.

If you haven't taken a self-defense course, I recommend it. They can be real eye-openers.

[Atypical Liberal]

37. If you are firing, you are firing to kill.

Firing a lethal weapon at someone and hoping that you only injure them is ridiculous.

When you shoot someone, you aim at center of mass, as this is the best way to insure hitting and stopping your target. While not shooting to kill per se, you never shoot to wound.

[Orrex]

38. I shoot to admonish

Sometimes I shoot to inculcate.

[Doctor_J]

30. I am the most anti-gun member of DU, IMO

but IF (big if, of course) a student was brandishing in a middle school, the police did the correct thing. Pointing a weapon at police is suicide, period.

[DaveJ]

39. Yeah they just were doing their jobs

"Just" being the operative term, killing the kid with the pellet gun.

Going above and beyond would have been figuring out a non-lethal outcome, for instance shooting him in a nonlethal part of the body, but they are trained to aim for center of mass, just doing their jobs.

[slackmaster]

40. Monday-morning quarterbacking is such bullshit

What part of "pellet gun that looked like a real handgun" do you not understand?

Are the lives of police officers not worth something?

This is obviously a case of "suicide by cop."

[DaveJ]

42. Uh what did I say?

I'm sure they had bullet proof vests, shields, strategic position, and years of training, against a 15 yr old kid, who I dunno, was probably surrounded at that point and had no access to other kids at that point. They were just doing their jobs, I'm not saying they did anything wrong, but they did not do anything 'great'. Just my opinion, assuming I'm allowed to have one.

[slackmaster]

45. Do you believe those cops went in there wanting to kill a teenage kid?

Do you think they enjoyed it?

How do you think they feel about it RIGHT NOW?

Could you do a better job?

[octothorpe]

52. Well imagine if they did try to shoot for the arm, legs or whatever and they missed

and the bullet strayed and hit a student or teacher... Would you say "oh, well at least they tried to wound the gunman"? At the time, they had no idea it was a pellet gun, what if they shot and missed (since they are aiming for a smaller target) and he started firing at the police and his stray bullets found a civilian? The police officers would have totally been at fault for the deaths and injuries that might have resulted. That would have been negligence on all the officers fault if they took that route and something happened to a bystander. Bullets can go through walls and windows.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

61. I dunno. Shooting him in the back of the head seems kind of risky to me, too.

Seems to me that's kind of a small target with a higher chance of a miss as well.

I'm not a gun person though, so I could be wrong.

[octothorpe]

62. I didn't see that they shot him in the back of the head....

Where was this reported at?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

64. Brownsville Herald is where I read it first

But here's a quick link to another news report I just read.

His mother, Noralva Gonzalez, showed off a photo on her phone of a beaming Jaime in his drum major uniform standing with his band instructors. Then she flipped through three close-up photos she took of bullet wounds in her son's body, including one in the back of his head.
http://www.kxan.com/dpp/news/texas/student-shot-by-cop-had-had-pellet-gun

[slackmaster]

65. Three shots fired, two hit near center of mass and one hit the head

I suspect the head shot was fired last, and hit the unfortunate young man as he was falling down from the first two shots.

He really should have dropped the weapon when he was told to. Or maybe he shouldn't have brandished it when police were there. Or he COULD have kept the gun hidden and not displayed it to anyone.

Or maybe he shouldn't have brought it to school. He made a series of very poor choices.

[backwoodsbob]

47. DO ME A FAVOR

come to my house and stand 40 yards away and let me shoot you with one of my pellet guns.

IF you survive I will call an ambulance.

[minavasht]

55. Can you

elaborate on the type of training you have?
How many times have you had to shoot somebody in nonlethal parts of their bodies?
How many times did it work?

[LetTimmySmoke]

53. Thank god no innocent people were harmed in the incident.

He brandished the gun at the officers. At that point, it's either his life or the life of the officers or other innocents in the area. He made his choice, and the cops did what they had to do.

[crim son]

59. Yeah, turns out it was a pellet gun.

Darnit, what a silly mistake.

[slackmaster]

68. Never bring a fork to a knife fight,

Never bring a pellet gun to a gun fight.

[Turbineguy]

57. Whatever happened,

it's still a tragedy. 15 years old. What a waste.

[Historic NY]

58. Since Columbine the police now respond to "active shooter" scenario

as a result of the consequences of not reacting swiftly.

[CanSocDem]

66. Only in America.

Another lesson in 'Living in a Gun Culture'. Respond in kind. Shoot first....

.

[Fourier]

67. Indeed, because being a dead victim is so much morally superior.

[unkachuck]

70. this is sad....

....another 'death by cop', this time, a child....shoot to kill!

....couldn't these well-trained system thugs use less lethal means, or maybe, shoot to wound?