Woodland teacher suspended after kneeling during national anthem at school rally

[demmiblue]

Source: The Sacramento Bee

A Woodland High School chemistry teacher was suspended Friday for kneeling while the national anthem was played at a school assembly.

Windy Pappas had posters reading “Black Lives Matter” and “It’s okay to disagree with any sign here!!!” as the national anthem played during Woodland High’s rally to kick off homecoming week on Friday morning. She was dressed in school colors – orange and black – and had her right hand over her heart as she kneeled, based on a photo circulating on social media.

The rally proceeded without incident, but administrators later came to her classroom and escorted her to the school parking lot, she told The Daily Democrat. She has since been indefinitely suspended.

Pappas declined to comment Monday, citing a pending investigation.

Read more: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article179175046.html

[RKP5637]

1. Reminds me of when I was in school in a public school being forced to read from the

bible each day, it rotated around the class. ... then the pledge of allegiance, and then under god we trust. ... now under tRump we cringe.

[tblue37]

51. I had that same bible experience as a child--in public schools! nt

[WinkyDink]

63. Yes, me too. SIXTY YEARS AGO.

[RKP5637]

71. where did the time go ... n/t

[Eliot Rosewater]

2. No point in going to school if this is the lesson they are learning.

that protest is wrong somehow?

Fuck that

[slumcamper]

3. Symobolic protest in public space was ruled constitutional in 1969.

In Tinker v. Des Moines School District.

Of course, such precedents are always subject to Court scrutiny (e.g., Brown overturning Plessy). As power within our political and judicial system continues to drift toward authoritarian and nationalist positions, much social progress will be challenged.

[Igel]

30. Next time you're asked to do something at work

and you make it a media event to protest something, tell that to your boss.

She's an employee at a function in which she's acting as a school representative. The opinion deals with students.

Teachers are already special in that they can be fired for reducing their effectiveness. The year I was a hired a teacher was seen getting soused at a Friday happy hour wearing her school shirt. She was canned Monday.

As far as the teacher was concerned, it was not a public space. Kids have rights and right to a FAFE and (relatively) free expression; teachers have contracts and no right to the job they currently hold.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

36. I side with the ACLU on this one. I'm surprised a former teacher wouldn't as well??

Besides the law, there is something seriously wrong with any employer, especially a government employer, forcing an employee to pledge allegiance. And yes being forced to stand is a pledge of allegiance.

As an employee of the government, she has more protections than a private employee.

The First Amendment entitles teachers to protected speech if it is not in a school-sponsored platform, ACLU of Northern California senior staff attorney Michael Risher said. Past California cases have found teachers were within their rights to wear political buttons at back-to-school nights or circulate petitions in a teacher’s lounge, since they were not actively instructing students.

Staff are expected to attend rallies to supervise students and are assigned where to sit or stand, Lutz said. While most students attend rallies, the school also offers a separate location for those who choose not to. If Pappas attended the rally as a chaperone and didn’t offer an educational lecture, Risher said, imposing a suspension for her protest could prove difficult.

“Homecoming is not a part of the school curriculum. It’s essentially a social or spirit event, and that would certainly weigh in favor of her expressing her political views at that sort of event,” Risher said. “I don’t think anyone would confuse her personal expression here with expressing the views of the school, and that matters in this context.”

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article179175046.html#storylink=cpy

[Drahthaardogs]

46. If she were a Jehovah's Witness, she would not stand

And no one would say shit.

I understand one could claim religion freedom.

However, why does an employer have the right to impose their political beliefs on an employee? Does not seem right.

[WinkyDink]

68. Our public school system is sui generis, in terms of "employer-employees." It is not like Walmart or

Exxon, because....CHILDREN. No other occupation carries the "in loco parentis" responsibility, e.g.

It of course remains to be seen what the outcome of this suspension will be. "Fostering a disruptive atmosphere" might be a stretch if the District tries to apply that rationale to an act at a Pep rally.

But in general terms, no, a public school teacher cannot just say whatever he wants while serving in his employee capacity.

I got away with A LOT in my classes as an outspoken proponent of Democratic ideas!

[adigal]

74. You must live in a non-union state, cause I could NEVER be fired to drinking

On my own time. That is a bullshit firing.

[adigal]

73. The students dont have to stand for the pledge, although in my school, teachers

Make them go out in the hallway during the pledge. Which is not right.
But a teacher? I AM a public employee, i have to be there diring pledge and anthem, would I kneel? I think i could get fired.

[jpak]

4. Lawsuit - First Amendment

yup

[Chemisse]

5. Yeah - she deserved suspension.

She is there to do a job, which includes being a role model for the students, and does not include sharing her own personal political beliefs.

[TexasBushwhacker]

6. I agree

If she was a neo-Nazi nut job I would want her suspended as well.

[Chemisse]

8. Exactly. My son's teacher filled the class with pro-Republican propaganda.

I went to the admin and complained.

[Bettie]

14. Was the teacher suspended?

I'm guessing not.

[Chemisse]

16. No - lol. Nor would I expect him to be.

I assume he was spoken to, however, and we had no more trouble with it.

[handmade34]

7. sad day

when "Black Lives Matter" is a punishable offense

[Chemisse]

10. It would be even sadder if it was a sign in support of Neonazis

You can't allow one without the other.

Neither is acceptable when done by a teacher in a school setting.

[gabeana]

23. I know huh

since you like to equate Neo Nazi's with Black lives Matter
I guess you wouldn't have approved the Civil Rights movement many educators led the marches, were arrested

If your main complaint is school setting, I guess you had issue with Sal Castro, who organized Latino students to walk out of east L.A. schools because high drop out rates, inferior schools, overcrowded, lack of opportunity, etc.

Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both.
(1857) Frederick Douglass,

I glad most people don't fall in line

[X_Digger]

39. That's how principles work. They apply to circumstances we like as well as those we despise.

If you think the poster was equating the two, then you have another think coming.

[onenote]

53. There is a difference between teachers attending marches and teachers doing things at a school event

That being said, as discussed in a post above, there are several variables that come into play when it comes to assessing the scope of a teacher's first amendment rights (or, for that matter, a student's first amendment rights).

[Cold War Spook]

9. So what the students learned

was do not respect the Constitution, because if you do, you will be punished.

[Chemisse]

12. Actually, the Constitution assures she would not be arrested.

She has a right to protest but, if done when on duty, the school has a right to discipline her.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

38. You are ignoring the fact that in this case the employer is also "the government"

She has a lot more protections than a private employee.

[onenote]

54. But don't forget that first amendment rights in a school setting differ from those outside

the school setting.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

70. Yes. It does.

But in general, the students have less 1st Amendment protections from the government (their keepers in this case) than the average person on the street.

And the teachers have more 1st Amendment protections from their employers (the government in this case) than the vast amount of private employees on the street.

[Bettie]

15. They also learned that if you speak up (even silently) against injustice

you get punished.

So, for the authoritarians among us, it's a win/win.

[Chemisse]

19. What if the teacher had spoken up for white supremacy?

How about an anti-abortion protest, complete with dead fetus signs? Would you still be so supportive of her right to protest in front of the whole school? Would it be too 'authoritarian' to expect our kids not be subjected to racism or extremist beliefs?

But of course it's totally okay if it is a cause you believe in. So who is supposed to pick and choose which teacher protests are allowed? The principal (a likely Republican)?

How about no staff-led political activities in the school at all? (In fact there is probably a regulation against political activities in taxpayer funded facilities, so there really is no choice).

[gabeana]

26. Did she speak up for white supremacy

this is what Hillary Clinton said about players kneeling

“Actually, kneeling is a reverent position,” Clinton said. “It was to demonstrate in a peaceful way against racism and injustice in our criminal system.That’s not against our anthem or our flag.”

[7962]

35. Thank you!

It seems as though anytime someone brings up that point, they get accused of being a troll, or right wing, or some other such nonsense. Your point is spot on
Reminds me of when Harry Reid changed he rules of the Senate while Dems were in control. A lot of folks here thought it was a great thing, but I asked "what about when republicans control the Senate? Which will happen at some point". And we see what happened there.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

40. Let's talk this out then.

First we have to understand her employer is also the government so the rules are a little trickier and she has some 1st Amendment protections from her employer.

It's been litigated that she can make some political statements. Even in the school setting -- but not as part of the curriculum. But she IS afforded some leeway at school sponsored events outside the classroom.

If she is allowed to make a political statement there are a couple rules that come to mind that could preclude her from speaking. One is her speech in criticism of her employee/employer relationship? Another is her political expression likely to affect her ability to teach? (There are others but those are the big ones that come to mind).

In the first scenario she can, say, complain about matters of public interest even if it means criticizing her employer (the school board or superintendent) but she can't publicly complain about her boss in private employee/employer matters -- say for instance complaints about being disciplined for tardiness.

The other rule is does her political expression can't affect her ability to teach?

I think an expression in favor of nazism would fail that test. If she spoke up in favor of Nazism do you think the Black and Jewish kids in the school would feel comfortable being graded by a Nazi?


Now the big question is do you think white kids would or should feel uncomfortable being taught by a Black Lives Matter supporter? Will this support affect her ability to teach?

I think the answer is no. I'm sure the right wing will try to spin that narrative.

Why should we buy the right wing bullshit? I know I don't.

[Chemisse]

48. I'm afraid I don't know anything about litigation in these circumstances.

And certainly white kids would not be uncomfortable with her stance (while some might disagree, they will forget about it pretty quickly).

I do see your point about how some other political statements would be far more damaging to the teacher - student relationships.

My outlook is based on my strong belief that teachers' personal beliefs and causes have no place in the classroom (or at a rally). That goes for the Jehovah's Witness teacher, the sub who read Bible verses, the History teacher who spewed Republican talking points. Teachers have a great deal of power to mold young minds, and if you allow any of this, you allow it all.

I also am a chemistry teacher. I don't even tell the students who I am voting for in an election (and none of my peers do either, as far as I know). Instead I model compassion, fairness, honesty, respect for diversity, and caring about our environment.

[FreeState]

11. I'd argue she is being a role model to her students n/t

[Chemisse]

13. Indeed she was. But not the kind she was hired to be.

I would be livid as a parent if a teacher at my child's school conducted a political protest in support of a Republican stance. And if you let one go by, you set a precedent to allow the other.

Teachers need to be neutral politically while on the job. Now if this teacher had done this when off duty, I would be against her suspension.

[handmade34]

20. I don't consider

"Black Lives Matter" a politically partisan stance... I would certainly put up a "Black Lives Matter" poster in my class if I were still teaching. It is a very real human rights issue per the UN's Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

There is no rational comparison to Neo-Nazi dogma. Nazism is very much a political stance and of course not appropriate for teachers to advocate. This teacher acted in a manner that could be a real opportunity for a class or schoolwide discussion, but I would not expect a suspension...

[Chemisse]

34. I don't consider 'Black Lives Matter' to be a political statement either.

It's an expression of humanity. I don't understand why everybody doesn't embrace it.

Unfortunately, it turned into a wildly political issue when others came out with 'all lives matter' and 'blue lives matter', to minimize the importance of righting the injustice. In addition, the idea of 'taking the knee' has become wrapped in the flag, turned into an offense against our nation.

It's bullshit that it is so political, but it is. Such are the times in which we live.

[murielm99]

21. I agree...

We went to school to protest a teacher who had pro-Republican stuff in his classroom and office area. It was especially bewildering because he was the band conductor and music teacher.

We spoke to him privately. He apologized and removed everything. It never happened again.

He was young when this happened. He was a good teacher. He built a good music program here. He left after ten years, because a nearby community paid him more. I was sorry to see him go.

[iluvtennis]

24. Disagree. She has her 1st Amendment rights as well

[guillaumeb]

28. Not at work. eom

[iluvtennis]

29. Constitution applies everywhere.

[WinkyDink]

31. Nope. Teachers, e.g., cannot "badmouth" administrators to students. Cannot

proselytize (good, right?). Cannot swear in the classroom. And so on.

Other jobs probably have "free speech" limitations as well.

The Constitution refers only to the fact that the government cannot punish citizens for their expression of thoughts, which has been broadened to include nude dancing, something public school teachers cannot do at a school event! Haha!

[Chemisse]

33. Yes, in the sense that she could not be arrested for it.

But many workplaces would fire someone who brought their political activities to work with them.

[guillaumeb]

37. First Amendment protections do not apply at work.

Speaking as former Federal union representative of 33 years, and not an attorney, but quite familiar with the subject.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

41. So you are not aware of any additional 1st amendment protections you have when your ...

.... employer is the government?

That's strange.

(By additional I mean above and beyond what a private employee might have)

[guillaumeb]

43. Federal employees have certain restrictions,

many relating to the Hatch Act, that limit what they can and cannot do politically as Federal employees.

As to First Amendment rights, and the Hatch Act, no Federal employee has the absolute right to speak politically on the employers' time. If a Federal employee were to make political statements not directly connected to the performance of their duties, such unauthorized speech would be a violation of the Code of Ethical Conduct. And violations of the Code of Ethical Conduct are treated as serious violations.


As to this particular incident, if the teacher had been off duty the situation would be different. But the teacher was acting in a capacity as a teacher, and on the clock, when the conduct took place.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

44. The ACLU sees it differently

I agree that speaking while on the company time could be problematic. But what about at a company sponsored event?

Nobody is saying any government employee has absolute 1st Amendment protection. But they can criticize their ultimate employee on matters of public policy - way more protection than any private employee ever had/has.

The First Amendment entitles teachers to protected speech if it is not in a school-sponsored platform, ACLU of Northern California senior staff attorney Michael Risher said. Past California cases have found teachers were within their rights to wear political buttons at back-to-school nights or circulate petitions in a teacher’s lounge, since they were not actively instructing students.

Staff are expected to attend rallies to supervise students and are assigned where to sit or stand, Lutz said. While most students attend rallies, the school also offers a separate location for those who choose not to. If Pappas attended the rally as a chaperone and didn’t offer an educational lecture, Risher said, imposing a suspension for her protest could prove difficult.

“Homecoming is not a part of the school curriculum. It’s essentially a social or spirit event, and that would certainly weigh in favor of her expressing her political views at that sort of event,” Risher said. “I don’t think anyone would confuse her personal expression here with expressing the views of the school, and that matters in this context.”

Read more here: http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/article179175046.html#storylink=cpy

[WinkyDink]

62. The ACLU's Mr. Rischer contradicts himself. A school rally is indeed "in a school-sponsored

platform," which Mr. Rischer said before he narrowed his criterion to "not a part of the school curriculum."

In any case, the ACLU is not the determining entity.

[Hassin Bin Sober]

69. No, he doesn't contradict himself.

He is using "platform" correctly and you are misconstruing the word to mean a school sponsored event.

In this case, "platform" is the policy or curriculum approved and expressed by the administration and its authorized employees.

From Webster: a declaration of the principles on which a group of persons stands; especially :a declaration of principles and policies adopted by a political party or a candidate.


In other words, and he goes on to bolster this opinion, the teacher can't "speak" within the curriculum where it could be construed as the official opinion of the school -- the platform.

He goes on to clarify in plain language the case law is such that a teacher can "speak" at a school sponsored event when not actively instructing students (the platform). He's correct, a pep rally is not part of the curriculum.

He doesn't contradict. You are hung up using a wrong definition of platform.


You say "The ACLU is not the determining entity"

How about a opinion from the former California Attorney General? The ACLU is parroting his opinion, which btw, is backed up by the case law.

The AG quotes the case law and also spells it out in plain language.


https://firstamendmentcoalition.org/2009/06/ag-opinion-01-307-teachers-can-wear-political-buttons-at-back-to-school-night2001/

AG Opinion #01-307 Teachers Can Wear Political Buttons at Back-to-School Night(2001)
by Firstamendment on June 13, 2009 in News & Opinion
TO BE PUBLISHED IN THE OFFICIAL REPORTS

OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL
State of California

BILL LOCKYER
Attorney General

OPINION
of
BILL LOCKYER

Attorney General
ANTHONY S. Da VIGO
Deputy Attorney General
:
No. 01-307

July 12, 2001

THE HONORABLE JACK SCOTT, MEMBER OF THE STATE SENATE, has requested an opinion on the following question:

May a school district prohibit teachers from wearing political buttons while attending Back-to-School Night, an annual event where teachers meet with parents to discuss the curriculum and related matters for the coming school year?

CONCLUSION

A school district may not prohibit teachers from wearing political buttons while attending Back-to-School Night, an annual event where teachers meet with parents to discuss the curriculum and related matters for the coming school year.

In California Teachers Assn. v. Governing Board, supra, 45 Cal.App.4th 1383, the court distinguished between the situations where the teachers were wearing political buttons while teaching their students and where the teachers were not providing instruction to their pupils. The court observed:

“We find the district has the power to prevent its employees from wearing political buttons in its classrooms and when they are otherwise engaged in providing instruction to the district’s students. On the other hand we find the district has no such power when its employees are not engaged in instructional activities.” (Id. at p. 1385.)

[alarimer]

55. It should and you'd think that it would

But we are, at heart, an authoritarian country, where we have somehow decided that the constitution (as in the Bill of Rights) does not apply everywhere. And I guess they thought this protest was political. Somehow, protesting the police is automatically a political act. Because we are an authoritarian country and not supposed to criticize authority.

Sad.

[Drahthaardogs]

47. Is not forcing her to stand the school imposing their political beliefs?

It goes both ways here.

[Turbineguy]

17. It's OK. No big loss.

She teaches science.

[WinkyDink]

32. That's "science."

[7962]

18. Its beginning to look like people are starting to do this just to get attention

The original purpose is being lost in the shuffle

[handmade34]

22. the original purpose was/is

"Black Lives Matter" and this is what the teacher brought attention to... I don't see any diversion from that

[iluvtennis]

25. Agreed.

[LanternWaste]

49. What specifically leads you to allege that?

What specifically leads you to allege that?

[guillaumeb]

27. She has no First Amendment right to free speech at her workplace. eom

[alarimer]

56. It should.

The fact that it doesn't is just one more sign that our constitution is not worth the paper it's printed on. I'd say tear it up and start over, this time with REAL protections that apply EVERYWHERE AND TO EVERYWHERE.

I want a new country.

[guillaumeb]

57. AS I understand it, the First Amendment protections

are protections against government actions only.

[alarimer]

58. I guess my point is that it needn't be this way.

This is how the courts have decided things. Starting from scratch (yeah, I know, not gonna happen), I think we could be more explicit about when and where it applies. It just seems so odd to me that you have basically no rights in the workplace unless you have a contract (say with a union) that spells them out. I doubt that was the original intent, but who knows.

[guillaumeb]

59. I was a union representative for a Federal Union.

Even with a National Agreement, the Hatch Act and the Code of Ethical Conduct still applies.

[WinkyDink]

66. The Constitution is a document delineating citizen rights in regards to the government. NOT THE WORK

PLACE. Those rights are from laws passed by Congress (OSHA, Unemployment Compensation, Child labor, etc.).

[alarimer]

77. Yes, my point is that is SHOULD, not that it DOES.

Corporations (or any workplace) should not be able to limit your rights, including speech, at work or anywhere else (especially anywhere else- how many times have people gotten canned for things they did elsewhere?).

[WinkyDink]

65. You are protected from arrest. You are not protected from being fired.

[onetexan]

42. this happened in the most liberal state in the country?

this is Sacramento, northern California for goodness sake!

[Brother Buzz]

60. This is Woodland

Woodland has been hard core Rush Limbaugh country years before the rest of the nation ever even heard of him. That's a fact, Jack.

[onetexan]

61. thank you for shedding light, i just assumed most of CA was blue

[Brother Buzz]

64. There's a lot of shuffling going on but this is a reasonable representation of my fair state:

Thankfully population, not real estate, determines representation

[logosoco]

45. This is a symbolic but also a possible very pivotal time for this country.

If we don't have the freedom to choose to stand or not, or take a knee if we feel the country has wounds, then what have we become?

The incident in this story did not take place in the classroom. It was a public event. When the National Anthem plays, are we required as citizens to have to stand or not? This teacher sees the injury done to other citizens and does not choose to stand but to take a knee (which I learned when my daughter was a cheer leader is what you do when a player is injured, so I see the connection there0.

If this was my school district, I would really think this is not a fire-able offense. It gives the students a chance to see something that we have the freedom to do in this country, stand up and speak out to the government with any grievances.

I do not want to be in a "my country, right or wrong" place if I can't say what I think is wrong or right about it.

Any student, teacher or employee in a private employ should never be forced to worship or obey something they don't want to if it is not directly job related. Is standing for the Anthem something a teacher must do to be a good teacher? If we say yes, we are shutting down a lot of the freedom for people to think for themselves. And kids should learn to do that, especially now.

[bluestarone]

50. this

i agree America is America. To stand or kneel is our choice!

[adigal]

75. I am a teacher and I'm 99% certain I would be suspended or fired if

I didnt stand for the pledge.
Schools are quite authoritarian.

[Not Ruth]

52. Does the suspension go on her permanent record?

[WinkyDink]

67. Of course! Why would it not?

[adigal]

76. Depends on if she has a union or not

Any union would fight this.

[DiverDave]

72. um, no, it's not illegal

[link:https://m.facebook.com/SouthernGentleman1865/photos/a.664352220434757.1073741829.467204703482844/686742241529088/?type=3&source=48&refid=17&_ft_=top_level_post_id.908959615926417%3Atl_objid.908959615926417%3Athrowback_story_fbid.908959615926417%3Athid.100004371617547%3A306061129499414%3A2%3A0%3A1509519599%3A189212132628925580&__tn__=EHH-R|