Ryan Backed Abortion Bill That Would Make Romney's Kids Criminals

[kpete]

Source: Mother Jones

Ryan Backed Abortion Bill That Would Make Romney's Kids Criminals
The VP candidate supported an anti-abortion bill that would outlaw IVF—which Mitt Romney's children used.

What isn't so well known about Ryan's record, though, is that one piece of legislation he supported is so extreme that it would have turned Romney's children into criminals.

The Sanctity of Human Life Act, which Ryan co-sponsored, would have enshrined the notion that life begins at fertilization in federal law, thus criminalizing in vitro fertilization—the process of creating an embryo outside of a woman's womb. In IVF, doctors typically create multiple embryos and then only implant the healthiest ones in the woman. Some of them stick and become babies, and some don't. The embryos that don't make it to the womb are either frozen for later use or destroyed. The Sanctity of Human Life Act, if passed, would make all those embryos "people" in the legal sense, so if they aren't used or don't become babies after being implanted, they would essentially become murder victims under the law.

....................

In May, Romney's son Tagg became father of twin boys thanks to help from IVF and a surrogate mother. Tagg's son Jonathan was also produced this way. Two of Tagg's brothers reportedly have struggled with infertility issues and resorted to IVF as well. It's hard to imagine that Romney will score any points with voters by tapping a running mate whose anti-abortion views are so extreme that Romney's own kids can't live with them.

Read more: http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/08/paul-ryan-abortion-ivf-romney-kids-criminals

[AtheistCrusader]

1. Should probably be careful with that claim.

Given that the Romneys are independently wealthy, they may not have gone through the process my wife and I did, where she took a battery of drugs that induced multiple eggs to release all at once, so we could take the 'best of many' approach. Didn't work for us, and we couldn't really afford to keep trying so we cut our losses and adopted.

Not everyone takes the 'many eggs' approach, so not knowing for certain if they did fertilize multiple embryos, that's a claim that might backfire.

Given medical record privacy, all they would have to say is 'no we didn't', and there isn't shit we can do about it.

[jeff47]

2. Your concern troll is noted. (nt)

[AtheistCrusader]

3. Whatever dude.

Shame on me for wanting to be accurate.

[jeff47]

10. You aren't trying to be accurate

First, you also have no idea how Romney's kids did IVF. "What if aliens teleported the fertilized embryos into the mother???!! We have to be sure to cover that!!!!!"

Second, what you describe is utterly not how IVF is done or can be done. Fertilization doesn't always work. Many fertilized eggs fail to develop. But most importantly, harvesting eggs from women is not something that can casually be done over and over again.

Sometimes prospective parents will have a smaller number of fertilized eggs implanted in the mother to avoid selective abortion. But that doesn't reduce the the number of eggs that were fertilized.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. Wrong wrong wrong.

The article in the OP makes an extremely damning allegation. I would love it if it were true, because I love rubbing people's noses in hypocrisy. However, it

A) May not be true.
B) If true, cannot be publcily proven due to HIPPA, and other privacy laws.

It can only be assumed, because most people do use that approach.

And then you are wrong again, in claiming 'is utterly not how IVF is done or can be done'. That's just wrong. I would agree with you if you said MOST OF THE TIME, but it is not absolute. Catholics and others DO make use of IVF and sometimes go to higher cost, higher risk options, to skirt the 'oops I murdered a baby' thing that their faith specifies. (And I have pointed out, the Romney family is financially in a position to do exactly that)

How can I show you are wrong with just the article at hand? Easy:

"In IVF, doctors typically create multiple embryos and then only implant the healthiest ones in the woman."

Typically means usually, but not always. For people who have religious fundamentalist views on conception, they don't always take the most logical, most cost effective approach.

Until it is proven the Romney offspring did this, it remains an allegation, or a 'likely' thing, not a certain thing. The OP's article is phrased as a certainty on the actual behavior of Romney's kids, and that may not be accurate. I would say it is LIKELY, because they smell like hypocrites to me, but it is possible they are not.

What is more important to me, is that the Ryan bill would have impinged on my wife and I, because we DID use that method, and I do NOT fucking apologize for it. We did the best that we could, and in my view, we did the right thing. Period. Ryan can fucking stuff it up his ass.

[jeff47]

22. So it's fine to make assumptions because they're Mormon

But "making assumptions" about IVF is EVIL!!! EEEEEEEEVILLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sure, makes perfect sense.

It can only be assumed, because most people do use that approach.

Let me try spacing it out here to help you.

There.........Is.........No.........Other.........Approach.

Catholics and others DO make use of IVF and sometimes go to higher cost, higher risk options, to skirt the 'oops I murdered a baby' thing that their faith specifies.

Yes, they implant fewer fertilized eggs so they don't have to perform selective abortion.

That doesn't mean they reduce the number of eggs they fertilize.

Two independent steps.

"In IVF, doctors typically create multiple embryos and then only implant the healthiest ones in the woman."

Typically means usually, but not always.

Two.........independent..........steps.

The OP's article is phrased as a certainty on the actual behavior of Romney's kids

Because it is.

Multiple eggs are harvested.
Multiple eggs are fertilized.
Fertilized eggs are frozen in liquid nitrogen.
Now we get options:
Option 1: Thaw and implant several eggs, and use selective abortion to reduce the number that develop into babies. Has greatest chance of success because you're starting with around 4-8 eggs.
Option 2: Thaw and implant around 2 eggs, so selective abortion will not need to be used. Much lower chance of success, so option 2 may need to be repeated and thus costs more. But when repeated they use the frozen eggs, not new ones.

Now, even if Romney's kid took option 2, they still created fertilized eggs that were not implanted. It's the creation of those eggs that would be illegal.

[AtheistCrusader]

23. Have you actually been through the process?

Not every woman can produce multiple eggs at all for harvest.
The eggs are graded before they are even fertilized. Not every egg is worth fertilizing.

At this point, you do not necessarily have any fertilized eggs at all, when you make the decision to fertilize and then implant XYZ number of fertilized ovums.

Some people will, according to their faith, only fertilize X number of the 'best' most viable eggs. It's dumb. It's costly. It lowers the chances of getting one to implant at all. If, like the Romney family, you are practically tripping over piles of money all day long, this is a viable option.

We didn't even freeze any at all, at any point, because the eggs were of such quality that the freeze-thaw would likely have rendered all of them so far from viable, that they weren't worth pursuing. (Ultimately we destroyed 6 that were fertilized that weren't worth implanting because their development was so far behind the curve, so Ryan's bill DOES target people like us. We also discarded 4 eggs that were never fertilized at all. This is not a 'crime' to mormons or catholics, on the grounds of conception (though catholics complain about other covenant aspects of the marriage/sex/adding in a donor, or a lab technician to the process, etc))

It is the fertilization step that would trip up the mormons. If they only produced one or two eggs to start with, no problem. If they only fertilized one or two eggs, no problem. If they fertilized a bunch and only implanted 2 and the rest died, or they implanted them all and selectively aborted, THEN they have a moral problem WRT their claimed faith.

[joeglow3]

25. Sorry, but AtheistCrusader is correct

My wife is in the field. There is an option 3 and he clearly laid it out. If you chose to ignore it, that is your choice. Doesn't make it less true, though.

[AngryOldDem]

4. People like Ryan don't care how it's done.

They want **everything** outlawed when it comes to reproductive choice.

Sorry for what you and your wife had to go through, though.

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Agreed. The highlight, in my mind should be that

such a bill WILL CERTAINLY hurt tens of thousands of prospective parents that would otherwise use this process.

[Crunchy Frog]

6. Having been through IVF myself, I find your speculation to be extremely implausible.

This is just the way that IVF is done, and the fact that they had twins would seem virtually to be an absolute confirmation.

Enough people in this country have enough familiarity with IVF to be able to call bullshit on bogus stories.

[AtheistCrusader]

8. Some people actually take the shotgun approach

and throw in ALL of the fertilized eggs. Some women can only produce a couple to harvest anyway.

Remember, these are extremely wealthy people, who can afford many many attempts, and also mormons, so not terribly rational on the approach.

[karynnj]

9. That could be quite dangerous to the woman if she produces many

Would anyone think it better if one of Romney's sons had the POV that all needed to be used immediately and ignored any doctors' concerns and his wife went along with it?

I think you are on shaky ground saying "Mormons are not terribly rational on the approach" Substitute blacks, Jews, Muslims and I doubt you would be ok with that sentence on any "approach".

[AtheistCrusader]

11. I would replace that statement with ANY religious fundamentalist view on life starting at conception

it is by definition, not rational. Rational would almost certainly put the health of the mother, and the best outcome for the pregnancy first, not some religious imaginary litmus test of 'that's ok per the rules, but for this other option your ass goes in a pit of fire'.

Allow me to restate my position for clarity: these people can afford to take an approach that would game the rules, and allow them to meet the tenets of their faith, and medical privacy will prevent us from discovering that, even if they did, and publicly deny it.

It's kind of a loser of an issue, even if the OP's allegation is 100% right, because it can never be proven, only assumed.

If I were to make an assumption, I would assume this was probably bankrolled on daddy's money, and therefore came with strings attached like 'you use all the eggs you fertilize, because you will NOT politically inconvenience me, gosh darn it'.

[cosmicone]

14. For best chance of success

it is standard custom and practice to implant multiple embryos -- usually 4-6. This is why successful IVFs are frequently associated with twins, triplets, quadruplets and, when the obstetrician goes overboard, phenomena like octomom.

Thus, it goes without saying that it is far far more likely than not that they implanted multiple embryos.

[Crunchy Frog]

27. It's very rare to transfer that many embryos in this day and age.

Except in such cases as advanced maternal age or multiple IVF failures. The Octomom pregnancy was the product of a 6 embryo transfer, and the RE community was ready to draw and quarter the doctor who did it.

In my own case, I would not allow the transfer of more than two embryos, and they both took, in spite of having been frozen for nearly 10 years. At my fertility clinic they generally only transfer two, and they have one of the highest success rates in the world.

[olegramps]

15. Ryan objection to IVF is not limited to multiple fertilized egggs...

He follows every teaching of the Catholic Church which condemns IVF as well as any form of contraception. He is a rigid radical ideologue. He is representative of a very small minor ty of Catholics. The vast majority of Catholics have rejected the church's condemnations as little more than hysterical nonsense. Ryan is a ridiculous mental midget who is representative of the fanaticaL minority who have hijacked the church and are destroying any shred of its credibility.

[AtheistCrusader]

16. I'm with you there.

His bill would have shit on my wife and I, so i'm on board with running his ass out of town on a rail.

(Actually, I'd be on board on reproductive freedom in general, even if I DIDN'T have personal experience with it, I would hope)

[lunasun]

7. IVF is a mortal sin with the Catholics and should be included if they are after

fetus rights.....so just staying consistent with the fetus thing which is how they should at least be if embryos are their concern.
Cant let one type of fetus killer go and not the other
. most who put addtnl embryos in IVF know not all will make it to birthday 0

I am pro choice and that includes IVF
all noyb imo

[dsteve01]

13. Funny for a guy

who claims that 'choice' is paramount in all market policy. But can we apply that anarchy-libertarian view to feasible civil liberties? NO WAY.

[Enrique]

17. Paul Ryan thinks Tagg Romney is a murderer

there is no way around it.

[HockeyMom]

18. Children have a right to be CONCEIVED

that is the teaching of the Catholic Church. Every sex actual must have the potential for conception. That is why all forms of BC are "evil". Natural Family Planning is only to be used temporarily to space children, not LIMIT them.

Remember, Griswold was about married couples using BC. Very much a Catholic view, not to mention some weird, Nazi like concept. Babies for the Fatherland.

How many Catholic want to be told they MUST have as many children as god, or the state, tell them to have?

[AngryOldDem]

21. This thinking just outrages me.

I have read sites where Catholics have asked "experts" about the morality of using birth control for reasons such as finances, health, etc. ALL legitimate reasons for postponing -- or not having -- children.

Even in the examples of life-threatening illness, the answer is always "Artificial contraception is a sin. Trust in God. He will provide." Yes, and He also gave us a brain, and the ability to reason.

I'd like to think that most people are more intelligent than to go against their own good or their own common sense, but I just don't know anymore. Last I read, the majority of Catholics pay no attention to this controlling bullshit.

[Dustlawyer]

19. Laws do not apply to the 1%! Tagg and Co. Would not be charged because they are the elite!

Paul Ryan's bill only applies to "us people."

[dogman]

20. Just don't tell Joe the Plumber.

You know how he wants to deal with "illegals".

[AllyCat]

24. You have forgotten that these rules won't apply to th

the Romney class. Only to the rest of us.

[jonthebru]

26. Interestingly,

the article mentions that the Rmoney sons have fertility issues. For me that is the story. Are they all impotent?
Did they all marry Women whore infertile?

[bushisanidiot]

28. Republicans are such blatant hypocrites!

nt