Germany pursues charges against suspected Auschwitz death camp guard

[bobthedrummer]

Source: Haaretz

..

Read more: http://haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/germany-pursuescharges-against-suspected-Auschwitz-death-camp-guard-1.460135

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GOOD FOR GERMANY TAKING THE LEAD.

[emilyg]

1. Good!

This bastard enjoyed life. My birth father perished.

[bobthedrummer]

2. .

[bobthedrummer]

3. self-deleted

I apologize. My bad, poor choice .

[COLGATE4]

4. Good! Hope they try and convict the

bastard before he croaks. A very small measure of justice delayed but not completely denied.

[Xithras]

5. I was reading an interesting tidbit recently abount unprosecuted SS guards.

At this point, there are apparently more living female SS death camp guards than male guards. Many people mistakenly think that the SS was male only, and that the death camp guards were male, but there were apparently several thousand women in the SS, including many who worked in (and in some cases ran parts of) the network of Nazi concentration camps.

Both the Germans and Israeli's know who the women are, and one brief attempt to prosecute one of them in 1996 was eventually dropped. Why? Because prosecuting little old ladies is unpopular with the public. That particular woman, who worked as an SS Overseer at Auschwitz, today lives quite openly in a nice little house in central Germany.

I find it a bit offensive that they would give these women a pass simply because of their gender. Even the Wiesenthal Center won't actively pursue them in order to avoid the negative PR.

[happyslug]

7. Most of the Women are Germans, as oppose to Russians/Ukrainians

And you have to understand Nazi Policy to women during WWII, they were viewed as "mothers of the New Generation" and thus were encouraged to get pregnant (Marriage was NOT viewed as a requirement, just being pregnant was what was encouraged).

Britain, the US and especially the USSR, all used women in their Military to a much higher extent then did Germany during WWII. Women were to stay at home and bare children.

Now this restricted what jobs a Woman could take, most ended up in a secretary or similar "Pink Ghetto" job, thus had even less contact with the people in and being killed in the Death Camps. This also meant most women had even LESS authority then any of the males in the camp.

Furthermore, while I have heard of Women in the Concentration Camps as part of the Camp structure, I have NOT heard of them in any of the Death Camps. The Concentration Camps had existed from 1933 onward, while terrible, one could survive them. The Death Camps, on the other hand, the victims were sent in by Train, then trucked to the gas chambers and killed. No effort was made to keep any more then a hand full alive. Most died within hours of reaching the Death Camps. Some could survive for months or years, but as part of the Death Camp structure, i.e. processing other victims, burying them, burning them etc.

I point out this difference for even the "Witch of Buchenwald" Ilse Koch, appears never to have been to a Death Camp, but only the Buchenwald Concentration camp, and then only as the wife of the Commandant of the Camp. She was still at Buchenwald when her Husband sent up a Death Camp, but he was executed for stealing from the Nazis before that death camp was opened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_Koch

Now, some high ranking women were at the Death Camps, for example Marie Mandel and Therese Brandl. Both were executed in 1948 by Poland for they crimes in the camps, including actual killing of prisoners.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Mandel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Therese_Brandl

We also have to realized that less then 10% of the GERMAN GUARDS were female, of the 55,000 GERMAN GUARDS, only 3700 were female.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aufseherin

Here is a quote of one of the Females who did serve time (Ten years) for being an Death Camp Guard:

"What do you mean? ...I made a mistake, no... The mistake was that it was a concentration camp, but I had to go to it - otherwise I would have been put into it myself, that was my mistake.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herta_Bothe

Again, the women seems to be assigned to actual concentration camps, not Death Camps. There were exceptions to this rule, for example Johanna Langefeld ran the Women camp in the Austerlitz death camp, but had a reputation for NOT sending women to the Gas Chambers (And was relieved in October 1942, when the actual real killings started). She was transferred back to a Concentration camp till the end of the war. She was sent to Poland for Trial, but escaped, do to many of the Guards remembering her actions in her six months at Austerwitz, and later returned to German where she died of old age. Marie Mandel replaced her.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johanna_Langefeld

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irma_Grese

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juana_Bormann

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margot_Dreschel

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herta_Ehlert

Yes, these were NOT nice women, but these were the LEADERS and notice those that were executed were executed by the British, Poles or Russians NOT the Germans. Most of the women served in Concentration Camps, not Death camps and under the system the Nazi's used, were all subject to male supervision (Even the women running the women section of the Death Camps). Many were just bad, for they had the power to kill a prisoner even in a Concentration camp (and for this reason many of the above were executed). Johanna Langefeld has the most interesting story. Yes, she set up the Women's section of the Austerlitz Death Camp, but then was transferred before most of the killing took place. After the war she was transferred to Poland for Trial, but escaped and then lived in a Convent for a few years then back to Germany where she died.

On the other hand most of the rest were just mean bullies, even when NOT assigned to a death camp.

Now the above were the SUPERVISORS of the camps, thus in the best position to ease the pain of the prisoners (Which Johanna Langefeld is reported to have done) or make life more miserable and death (the crime that most of the above women were executed for).

Again. today, we are looking at low end people, not the leaders. For example Luise Danz, the last Female Guard charged with a crime in 1995, had been DRAFTED into being a Guard, and when Poland reviewed her record after WWII, only sentenced her to life imprisonment (Which she served, she was released by the Poles in 1956). In 1996 it was alleged she had stomped a prisoner to death during WWII, something Poland reviewed in their trial but did NOT technically charge her with. Thus for that crime she was charged by Germany, but her doctor reported she could NOT take the strain of a trail, she was 86 at the time, she is 94 today. Now, she is NOT a typical living guard, she had been the head of the Women's camp at Malchow but only from January 1945 onward, as things fell to pieces for Germany. She thus was in charge of a over crowded camp with no food for anyone and more prisoners coming in all the time. Hopeless situation and probably why the Poles only gave life (and left her go home in 1956) rather then execute her as they did other female guards.

I bring up these women, for they were all charged with crimes, tried and sentenced. These were women with SOME CONNECTIONS to the NAZI hierarchy but under NAZI dogma they were below any males, thus had no real say in how the camps were to be run, except for how the section for women was to operate within the larger camp. The women still alive, were teenagers or 20 something during WWII and thus were NOT in a position to do anything about the camps. To punish them makes no sense, punish draftees for the fact they were drafted? It is time to get on with life and leave the Nazis behind. We have much more modern war crimes to go after, and the people who did and set up those war crimes are still very much alive. We need to go after them, not some draftee who happen to be around when a war crime occurred.

[4th law of robotics]

12. "thus had no real say in how the camps were to be run"

Neither did camp guards.

They were given orders and they obeyed. They didn't set policy.

We still executed a great many of them.

[happyslug]

14. Most camp guard, who were executed, were executed for treason,

Remember the Guards were mostly Ukrainian and thus citizens of the Soviet Union. They accepting duties as a guard for the SS was Treason against the Soviet Union and it was for that crime they were executed for NOT for having anything to do with the death camps. Even the Russian knew the Guards did NOT run the camps, that was the work of the SS officers. Since the SS Officers were GERMANS, the Soviets could not executed them for Treason, but they did try them for the crime of running those camps and executed them for that.

Yes, a difference in treatment, but the Guards were executed for the crime they had a choice is doing, baring arms against the Soviet Union (When they agreed to be Guards) NOT for anything done in the camps, for even the Soviets were willing to accept that fact the Guards, by then, had no choice.

[4th law of robotics]

17. We executed german prison guards as well

It wasn't just forced soviet soldiers.

Yes, a difference in treatment, but the Guards were executed for the crime they had a choice is doing, baring arms against the Soviet Union (When they agreed to be Guards) NOT for anything done in the camps, for even the Soviets were willing to accept that fact the Guards, by then, had no choice.

They were executed for their role in the holocaust.

And "do this or die" isn't really a great choice. And better than the deal offered to nazi women who signed up.

[happyslug]

18. But not THE Ukrainian Guards or any other person who did ABUSE the position.

Last edited Thu Aug 30, 2012, 09:55 PM - Edit history (1)

The Camps were set up to be run by the inmates, mostly by career criminals who ended up in the camps:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)#Prosecution_of_kapos

The personnel of the camps were NOT even tried for being involved in the camps UNLESS they had something to do with setting up the camps OR abused the position they had in the camps:
List of Camp personal (Including Guards) sentenced at the first Auschwitz trial, notice almost all were found guilty of ABUSING PRISONERS not just being a Guard at the Camp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_Trial

The 1960s "Second Austerlitz trials", and again you will notice the people actually convicted were convicted of ABUSE OR KILLING PRISONERS, NOT for being a Guard at the Camp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Auschwitz_Trials#Outcomes

More on those trials:
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/apr2004/aus1-a27.shtml

SS Ranks:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Table_of_ranks_and_insignia_of_the_Waffen-SS

My point was simple, we are NOT looking at people who had any say in how the camp was run, who did acts that exceeded there position (i.e. we are NOT talking about the Officers who set up the camp, NOT the Guards who did NOT abuse or Kill Prisoners independent of the death camp system itself).

A modern equivalent would be Abu Ghraib, again no one was convicted of being a GUARD at an illegal prison, but just for abusing prisoners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse

No one was ever convicted of torture that occurred in Abu Ghraib, only the "Abuse" of prisoners INDEPENDENT of any official interrogation (Which included torture). A Full Colonel and a Lieutenant Colonel were brought up on charges for NOT preventing the abuse from occurring (through at least one commentator, comment was they were charged with permitting PICTURES of the abuse from leaking out not for the actual abuse occurring) but everyone was charged for an actual crime NOT for just bring a Guard at Abu Ghraib.

The same with the Concentration Camp Guards, unless they did something beyond just being a Guard, they were NOT convicted of any crime.

Records of the Center for War Crimes:
http://www.uni-marburg.de/icwc/

Center for War Crimes for WWII:
http://www.uni-marburg.de/icwc/forschung/2weltkrieg/

List of War Criminals tried by Poland, 1946-1950:
http://www.uni-marburg.de/icwc/forschung/2weltkrieg/polen

Australian War Crime Trials:
http://www.uni-marburg.de/icwc/forschung/2weltkrieg/australien

Netherlands War Crime Trials:
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/NED/Angeklagtenfr.htm

USA WWII War Crime Trials. Dachau:
http://www.uni-marburg.de/icwc/forschung/2weltkrieg/usadachau?order=name,surname&order_type=asc&offset=25&count=100&name=&id_trial=
http://www1.jur.uva.nl/junsv/NED/NL-Verfahren01.htm

[4th law of robotics]

11. Interesting

Note for world domination planners: use adorable old ladies to carry out your worst crimes.

[happyslug]

6. A former guard living outside Germany, who was NOT a German National, to be indicted...

My first question is WHY? We are NOT talking about anyone who had any say in how the Camps were run or set up, who went to the camps, or even decided who lived and died. The Germans who made those decisions were either arrested right after WWII, or lived in Germany for many decades, often as Government officials (And some did both).

Now that ANYONE who had ANY connection with the ruling class of Germany are dead, Germany is now going after the low end privates who often had little or no choice in what they did or where they went.

It is like arresting the sole member of a Squad of Soldiers that murder civilians, when that sole member did NOT participate in the Murder, but since he was a member of the Squad has to serve time in jail, even after all the rest of the squad died of old age with government pensions. Why? He was the youngest member of the unit, thus the last alive AFTER ANYONE WITH POLITICAL CONNECTION HAS LONG BEEN DEAD.

Could this guard have participated in atrocities? Maybe, but he is NOT being accused of that (Neither was Demenjuk, after the Israeli court ruled he could NOT have been Ivan the Terrible, the Guard who did much harm to Jews in Auschwitz). The Charge is simple, he volunteered as a Foreign volunteer for the SS (In the Case of Demenjuk, for improved food and housing) who after he had volunteer was assigned to a Death Camp.

Thus the Alleged Guard had been a guard at a death camp (Probably Ukrainian, Demenjuk had been a Ukrainian who had volunteered for the SS, after he had been captured as a Soviet Solder in 1941). The Death Camps were noted for using Jews to police the interior of the Death Camps and even running the death chambers. The Ukrainians were used as exterior Guards, not interacting with the people in the Camp or the people going into the camp to be killed (There were exceptions to this rule, Ivan the Terrible was noted for randomly killing and terrorizing camp inmates for example). The German SS officers had complete power over both groups, up to and including killing anyone in both groups that they saw fit to do (Through the Ukrainian Guards were given Rifles and Ammunition, the inside Jewish "Guard" were not).

My point is asking why, is simple, we are NOT going after anyone who was in a position to say NO. Was in a position to change what was going on. Was in a position to report it to some outside source so to put pressure on Germany to end the Death Camps. Those men are long dead, often after a long life in Germany with connections with the Ruling Parties of West Germany. Going after these people will NOT send a signal to anyone NOT to do this type of crime, for the simple reason it clearly show that if you are in a position to actually stop it, no one will prosecute you till long after you are dead. And for the people like Demenjuk, what choice did he really have AT THAT TIME? Thus people in a similar situation will do what Demenjuk did even today. Thus preventing such crimes is NOT done with this series of prosecutions. Revenge? Even the Israeli ruled Revenge is not grounds for prosecution AND any real revenge would be after someone actual involved in RUNNING THE CAMPS or SETTING THEM UP (i.e Eichmann) not some low man like Demenjuk who, was at best, one step above the Jews being killed in the Camps.

More on Eichmann:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Eichmann

The only answer is Germany is now comfortable about going after these low level guards, for any German they can name as having forced them to be a Guard, or set up the Camp, Run the Camp, etc are long dead. i.e. Since the people who ACTUALLY DID THE CRIME ARE DEAD, Germany is now free to go after anyone left who MAY have been involved. Today, Germany thus does NOT have to show WHY it does not go after the people who had a real say in the camps, for they are all dead. This thus free Germany to go after people GERMANY FORCED to be part of that program. Germany can now Jail them for OBEYING Germany when they had little or no choice in the matter.

[Posteritatis]

8. Wow, haven't seen the Nuremburg defense used in its original context in awhile. (nt)

[happyslug]

13. The So call "Nuremberg Defense" is considered a very good defense for ENLISTED RANKS

That is what we are talking about, ENLISTEES and in most cases DRAFTEES. i.e people who HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO OBEY ORDERS,

The Nuremberg defense is NOT considered a good defense to anyone who had a CHOICE in what orders to obey or not, i.e A COMMISSIONED OFFICER. The defense is simple, an enlistee does his job under the supervision of his NCO and his Officers. He or she has NO DISCRETION in carrying out that order.

On the other hand, a Commissioned Officer (and to a lesser extent a NCO) has discretion, in fact disobeying orders that appeared to be no longer valid had long been a tradition in the German Army. The over all mission was more important then obeying orders. There is a famous comment about a German Officer being given an unfavorable review in the late 1800s, when he objected that he obeyed his orders, the General doing the review made the comment "You are expected to disobey orders".

This tradition is what did in the Germans at Nuremberg more then any other fact, and why enlistees rarely were executed for obeying officers. In the case of the Ukrainian Guards most were executed for serving in the German Army while being soldiers in Soviet Army (Most had been captured and when given the option of serving with the SS or staying in a POW camp, opt for serving the SS, that was the crime they were executed for, NOT for anything they did as a guard).

In the case of the women and other enlistees actually executed, it was for acts, permitted by the Nazi regime, but NOT ordered by the Nazis. i.e. beating to death a prisoner they were guarding. The Nazis did NOT ordered them to do that, but the Nazis did encourage it.

The point I am making is simple, in the case of low level enlistees they more often then not had no choice. It is like demanding that any Jew who operated the Gas Chambers and killed his fellow Jews, must today be hanged for that "crime". Remember inside the Death Camps, the set up was simple, it was prisoners, spared for now, that did the actual killings of the people sent to the camps. The "Karpo"s (the internal "police&quot were also Jews (or other undesirables i.e Roma, i.e. Gypsies, Homosexuals and anyone else sent to the death camps) who made sure the people coming into the camp went straight to the gas chambers. They kept the peace inside the camps and had the right of life or death over their fellow prisoners. Should we order such people be killed? They were part of the machine known as the Death camps, why should they be spared? The answer is simple, they had no real choice nor any ability to make a different decision.

These "Guards" that the Germans are looking into prosecute, were more often then not was facing the same situation. These were not the Officers running the camp, who could go to Berlin and ask WHY they are being ordered to do this. Most of these "Guards" did not even rise to anything close to being the equilvilant of a German Private. They had no right to complain to anyone BUT the person who issued the orders. They had no right to appeal the order to a higher officer (as did German Soldiers). Thus like the Karpos, most of whom were tired after the end of WWII AND Acquitted do to the fact they were nothing more then enlistees/draftees unless they abused they position, the policy should be that unless it can be shown that the person had a realistic option not to participate, they committed no crime.

Duress has long been a defense for criminal activity. Now, the Common Law adopted the rule that economic duress is not duress, but also adopted the rule that it is a mitigating factor. i.e. if the choice was starving in the POW camp and being a guard, opting for being a guard is not the same as some one else who volunteered to be a guard because he wanted to be a Nazi.

These "Guards" tend to be the former not the later and thus unless tied in with some actual crime themselves (i.e. beating a prisoner to death) I see no reason to go after them NOW. Thus why go after them, when during the time it was possible to go after the people who actual had a CHOICE in how these camps were run, no one went after those leaders. Except for trials right after WWII (and then mostly by Poland and the Soviet Union) most of the immediate leaders walked. Again, except for trials held by Poland, most of the people involved in the camps walked (Eichmann is an exception to that rule). Many received support from people in Germany (This is believed how Josef Mengele survived till 1979). Thus why go after such low level draftees today, I just can NOT see why given that we left the people who COULD HAVE SAID NO, live to a ripe old age.

More on Mengele:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josef_Mengele

[Posteritatis]

15. Nope. It's quite unambiguous. There are no exceptions, no cartes blanche for enlisted personnel. nt

[happyslug]

19. They were just NOT charged....

Or if charged, were charged with a crime of abusing prisoners, not just being a Guard:
The Camps were set up to be run by the inmates, mostly by career criminals who ended up in the camps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

The personnel of the camps were NOT even tried for being involved in the camps UNLESS they had something to do with setting up the camps OR abused the position they had in the camps:
List of Camp personal (Including Guards) sentenced at the first Auschwitz trial, notice almost all were found guilty of ABUSING PRISONERS not just being a Guard at the Camp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_Trial

The 1960s "Second Austerlitz trials", and again you will notice the people actually convicted were convicted of ABUSE OR KILLING PRISONERS, NOT for being a Guard at the Camp:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_Auschwitz_Trials#Outcomes

[bobthedrummer]

16. I would have self-destructed if ordered to throw infants into a crematorium device.

These were human monsters blinded by eugenics and the disease model of genocide. Round-up time!!!

[happyslug]

20. That is what happened to Orli Wald, and she did NOT serve in the Death Camp part of Austerwitz

She survived the camps but when it came time for her to testify at the 1960 era trials, she had a nervous breakdown and died at the age of 48.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orli_Wald

Orli Wald served in Austerlitz 1, which was a concentration camp, NOT Austerlitz 2, which was a death camp.

In March 1942, she was transferred to Auschwitz and became prisoner number 502. She was sent to work at the prisoner infirmary and herself became sick the following winter. Seeing her situation as hopeless, she attempted suicide with sleeping pills, but was saved and she recovered. In 1943, she became Lagerälteste, putting her in a better position to help other prisoners. At the notorious infirmary, headed by Josef Mengele, she witnessed numerous Nazi crimes, including newborn babies killed by doctors with injections of phenol, while the mothers were sent to the gas chamber; Nazi medical experiments on prisoners; and the "selections", where doctors chose sick people to be gassed rather than cured. As , she sometimes had to assist Mengele in the selections, although she was able to save many others.

She was Austerlitz's Lagerältester (camp leader)

A Lagerältester was:
The highest position that a prisoner could reach was Lagerältester. He was placed directly under the camp commandant, had to implement his orders, ensure that the camp's normal daily routines ran smoothly and satisfy the superior regulations. The Lagerälteste had a key role in the selection of other prisoners as functionaries, making recommendations to the SS. Though dependent on the goodwill of the SS, through them, he had access to special privileges, such as access to civilian clothes or a private room.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapo_(concentration_camp)

[bobthedrummer]

21. You might want to expand your knowledge base to include Edwin Black's "War on the Weak" and Heather

Pringle's "The Master Plan: Himmler's Scholars and the Holocaust".

I'm for the death penalty for crimes against humanity-regardless of age. The rule of law and accountibility-I'm all about trying to get some justice, even when the penalty is death. Look at Richard Bruce CHENEY, Donald Henry RUMSFELD, et.al. too....

[Ash_F]

9. There is always a choice

The German resistance memorial.



"You did not bear the shame.
You resisted.
You bestowed an eternally vigilant symbol of change
by sacrificing your impassioned lives for freedom, justice and honor."

[bobthedrummer]

10. I accept the things I cannot change too-like the aftermath of the PAPERCLIP NAZIS, but I fight them

wherever they are regardless of generation...

In this case, GOOD for GERMANY!