Rashida Tlaib stands by Israel and Holocaust comments amid criticism

[brooklynite]

Source: CNN

Michigan Democratic Rep. Rashida Tlaib defended her recent comments about Israel and the Holocaust Sunday after drawing criticism from top Republicans and Israel's ambassador to the United Nations, accusing her detractors of purposefully mischaracterizing her remarks.

Speaking on an episode of Yahoo News' "Skullduggery" podcast that was released Friday, Tlaib was asked about her support for a one-state solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. She began by noting the recent observance of Holocaust Remembrance Day before veering into the historic position of the state of Israel.
"There's kind of a calming feeling I always tell
folks when I think of the Holocaust, and the tragedy of the Holocaust, and the fact that it was my ancestors, Palestinians, who lost their land and some lost their lives, their livelihood, their human dignity, their existence in many ways, have been wiped out, and some people's passports," Tlaib said.

She continued, "I mean, just all of it was in the name of trying to create a safe haven for Jews, post-the Holocaust, post-the tragedy and the horrific persecution of Jews across the world at that time, and I love the fact that it was my ancestors that provided that, right, in many ways. But they did it in a way that took their human dignity away, right, and it was forced on them. And so when I think about a one-state, I think about the fact that, why couldn't we do it in a better way?"

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2019/05/13/politics/rashida-tlaib-holocaust-comments/index.html

[FreepFryer]

1. As a Jew and descendant of survivors, I find nothing wrong with these comments. (n/t)

[MosheFeingold]

17. Huh?

The Palestinians did not welcome Jewish emigres to the British Mandate with open arms.

There were routine pogroms to remove then-existing Jewish people from the area (e.g., the 1928 pogroms that created a Juden-Frei "Arab" East Jerusalem).

The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem (the effective founder of the Palestinian movement, and uncle of Yasser Arafat) was a keen follower of Adolf Hitler. He was key on forming Waffen SS Divisions for Hitler from Muslim troops, and helped form a plan to kill all the Jews in the Levant.

The Brits controlled Jewish immgration to the British Mandate to prevent a mass-uprising of the Arabs.

Nonetheless, there was a coordinated attack by surrounding Muslims on Jews in 1948 (using Nazi officers) (before Israel was formed).

Her entire statement is based on a lie -- Hitler used pre-existing antisemitism in the Arab populace (now called Palestinian) to exterminate the Jewish people; the Arabs were generally very hostile, not welcoming.

[Cartoonist]

29. Not a word about the King David Hotel

How one sided.

[MosheFeingold]

31. How silly

You truly expect the entire history to be discussed in a single post?

For those that don't know, the Irgun (basically a terrorist group) put a bomb in the King David Hotel, which was where British Intelligence/Police kept their records.

The Irgun called in the threat multiple times, told people to evacuate, but the Brits ignored it.

Probably 100 died, largely British.

Ugly, horrid, attack. But it has zero to do with what was discussed.

[pnwmom]

41. Of course they didn't welcome them with open arms. She's not pretending they did.

Why would they be happy to be displaced because of decisions made by other people that they had nothing to do with?

She's saying that she can feel angry when thinking about how the Palestinians were treated, but then she remembers the Holocaust, and what happened there, and understands the crisis that was being dealt with.

[MosheFeingold]

58. Well, the problem with that answer

Is it assumes anyone was "displaced".

You had a backwater of the Ottoman Empire that fell apart. One side of a line was largely Jewish and the other side largely Arab.

A portion of the Arabs (on both sides of the line) did not want the Jewish side to exist (since well before the State of Israel), so they repeatedly attacked until said line got fortified and a nation was formed.

The former Ottomans that now call themselves "Palestinians" were not "displaced". They were allied with Adolf Hitler (forming two Waffen SS Divisions -- the worst of the worst) and were so full of hatred that they could not see themselves in a state where Jews were equal citizens (Israel) or in a second state that was co-equal to Israel (Jordan) because Jews should not be allowed to have a state.

So they attacked. And lost.

[pnwmom]

62. Not every Palestinian living there -- who were indeed displaced -- allied themselves with Hitler.

As you said, it was "a portion."

I was introduced to one of the displaced Palestinians in a high school class, by my Jewish history teacher, who lost his parents in the Holocaust. The Palestinian's relatives had been living in Palestine for hundreds of years when the state of Israel was created and the current occupants were pushed out. It wasn't his fault what Jewish people had suffered in the Holocaust, but he and his family had to suffer for it.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Cheney and Scalise love to blast people by taking their comments and twisting them

out of context.

[2naSalit]

4. And those appear to be their finer qualities...nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

3. The racist RethugliKKKons can't help themselves distorting Tlaib's words and record to support

their indefensible, Islamaphobic positions.


Bernie & Elizabeth 2020!!!
Welcome to the revolution!!!

[qazplm135]

5. I get what she's trying to say

but she could have communicated the idea of the issues Palestinians are dealing with, without mentioning the Holocaust at all.

It adds nothing to her argument and it's a guaranteed landmine.

She needs to show a little better wisdom in communicating her message effectively. You can be right, and still say something that distracts from your message, particularly when you know folks are unduly scrutinizing you.

[Five Ten Nineteen]

7. Yeah

"There's kind of a calming feeling I always tell folks when I think of the Holocaust..."

Not the best phrasing!

[SunSeeker]

10. You are truncating her sentence, which changes its meaning. nt

[JudyM]

15. Ok. What do you think she meant gives her a calming feeling?

[SunSeeker]

18. Justification. nt

[JudyM]

22. Eh? Please add a few more words to explain.

[SunSeeker]

23. As she states:

"I mean, just all of it was in the name of trying to create a safe haven for Jews, post-the Holocaust,..."

[JudyM]

24. It doesn't seem to be that clear to me, if you are suggesting she feels calm that the Jews got a

safe space.

Especially in light of her past comments that suggest she has little compassion for Jews.

[SunSeeker]

8. She was stating a historical fact. It does add to her argument.

Her point is Palestinian property was taken from them to give Jews a safe place of their own because of the Holocaust, even though Palestinians did not cause the Holocaust. It makes her point that the Palestinians were (and are) being treated unfairly. How is it offensive to bring up the Holocaust in that context?

The Holocaust is not something we should never mention. Indeed, we should talk about it more often. The history of the Holocaust teaches many important lessons. How can we fulfill the entreaty to "never forget" if we never talk about it?

[qazplm135]

9. it's a little more than a "historical fact"

And when you invoke it, you are asking for extra scrutiny.

Palestinians are being treated unfairly...full stop. That's all you need to say, there's no need, logically or historically, to add in the Holocaust.

[SunSeeker]

11. Why? The reason the Palestinians were dispossessed is important.

[qazplm135]

12. to today? No, it isn't.

The Holocaust is not responsible for anything the Palestinians are going through today.

One could have had an Israel and a Palestine, but certain things happened to destroy that.
Hell, that was the original plan! So, the Holocaust had nothing to do with how that original plan got torpedoed and Palestinians ended up homeless.

Focus on that part, or better yet simply focus on the current injustices and the need for a two-state solution.

[SunSeeker]

13. History is important. Always. nt

[qazplm135]

14. yeah it's pretty clear

you are dedicated to the idea that she said it perfectly and there's nothing she could have done better so this is a wasted conversation.

[SunSeeker]

16. I'm not claiming she said it "perfectly." I just don't think she said anything offensive.

Seems to me discussion of the Holocaust was relevant in this context.

[LanternWaste]

25. Much ss you seem dedicated the corollary.

"dedicated to the idea that she said it perfectly and there's nothing she could have done better..."

Wasted, indeed.

[MicaelS]

21. Sure it is.

And it is a historical fact the Arab nations fought any attempt to allow a Jewish state to be created.

The issue of the Palestinians is used a club by the Arab nations to attack Israel, and keep THEIR own people stirred up. The problem could be solved at any time by giving the Palestinians citizenship in the other Arab nations. The fact that has not happened, except for Jordan, is proof the Arab nations do not want real peace.

Their is never going to be any "Palestinian right of return" and all that invokes.

Should Cuban-Americans be allowed to return to Cuba, and demand their property back that was seized decades ago?

[MosheFeingold]

20. Historical Fact?

"Her point is Palestinian property was taken from them to give Jews a safe place of their own because of the Holocaust"

Uh, no.

There was the Ottoman Empire. It ceased to exist (really starting before and after WWI). But really fell apart after WWII.

There were two areas there: one largely Arab (Jordan) and one largely Jewish (now Israel, then the British Mandate (more or less).

Now one can argue about where the line should have been drawn, much like a similar imperfect line was drawn between Pakistan and India, but there were two claimants (or three if you count Egypt), all largely present in the land at the time of division.

[still_one]

30. Exactly. Convenient rewriting of history

[MosheFeingold]

32. I think a lot of the anti-Israel animus

Is the result of good people believing lies.

That said, even when confronted with the facts, the same posters post the same garbage, over and over, so maybe it really is antisemitism.

[still_one]

34. I'm not sure, but it does indicate a closed mind. That is, don't confuse me

with the facts

Modern Israeli history well documented, from the Ottoman Empire, British rule, Balfour Declaration, etc

[SunSeeker]

38. What facts contradict what she said? Are you saying she has a "closed mind"?

None of that history you list is a Jewish state, just Jewish areas that were governed by others. What changed that arrangement? The Holocaust.

[still_one]

40. It was part of the ottoman empire. Her ancestors did not "create a safe have for Jews" that is

not true. and the Mufti of Jerusulum demonstrated that quite well.

My response was to a specific post

https://www.democraticunderground.com/10142315695#post32,

and if you read the CONTEXT of that post it was making reference to perhaps some of the opinions expressed by OTHERS about those supposed facts she was presenting, specifically that the Palestinians providing a safe haven for Jews. That is simply NOT correct

The comment was refuting some of the speculation that some of those posters may have anti-Semitic sentiments, and I viewed it differently, as a closed mind, and that comment was not directed at the Representative

[SunSeeker]

49. She did not say her ancestors created a safe haven for the Jews.

What she is noting is that Palestinians were dispossessed (obviously not of their own choosing) in order to create a safe haven for the Jews. Britain gave up it's claim to the area. It was in reaction to the Holocaust, and the demonstrated need for a safe haven for the Jews, their own Jewish state.

[SunSeeker]

39. Disagreeing with you is not antisemitism. Nor is a desire to be fair to Palestinians. nt

[MosheFeingold]

60. In a vacuum I agree with your statement

But you are not entitled to your own facts.

And spreading incorrect facts can, indeed, be antisemitism.

[SunSeeker]

61. What was incorrect? nt

[MosheFeingold]

65. Without going through the whole thread

Nor limiting to just your posts, common false narratives stated as true regarding Israel are:

1. The idea that the Arab occupants of that particular corner of the Ottoman Empire (now known as Palestinians) provided a safe haven for Jewish people during/after the Shoa. The Arabs were (generally) openly hostile, openly allied with Adolph Hitler (Google "Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler&quot , and, in fact, repeatedly attacked Jewish residents of the area (starting most notoriously in 1928, but continuing after WWII with the aide of Nazi officers in 1948).

2. That the State of Israel historically stood in the way of the two state solution. No, the entire idea of the Balfour Declaration, et al, was a two state solution would be created out of this backwater of the Ottoman Empire -- Israel and Jordan. The "disputed areas" came about: (a) because the line drawn was not particularly well drawn and (b) a minority of the Arab population in what-was-to-be Israel was racist/Islamist and refused to live in a state where Jews had equal rights, and so got surrounding nations to back the extermination (then called the "Final Solution&quot to the Jewish Problem in the Levant.

3. That the Jewish population of Israel is white Europeans. No, a plurality of Jewish Israelis are Sephardic Jews ethnically cleansed from the surrounding areas (e.g., from Persia -- which changed its name to "Iran" -- aka "Aryan&quot and quite brown, even black. Even European Jews (Ashkenazim like me) are genetically closest to -- guess -- Palestinians.

4. That Israel is an "Apartheid" state. No, all citizens of Israel are equal. 20% or so are Arab. They are the richest Arab demographic in the world and highest educated. Solidly upper middle class, especially Christian Arabs, who are the richest group of people in all of Israel. The one difference is Arab Israelis aren't subject to the draft, but many serve, because they think the Palestinians are crazy.

5. That Palestinian land was stolen or Arabs displaced. No, in general, the land was bought (starting in the 1700s actually) from the owners at whatever they were willing to sell it for. Started en masse with the Rotchilds in the 1800s. (Note this does not address the "stupid line issue" which is definitely an issue, but that didn't determine who owned what land. That determined which country said land was in.) Most of said land was worthless scrub. Go look at the founding of Tel Aviv for proof of concept:



Las Vegas at least had a spring.

Etc.

[SunSeeker]

67. None here has stated your points 1-4. Re point 5, Tlaib says Palestinians lost their land.

Last edited Wed May 15, 2019, 02:08 AM - Edit history (1)

No sure what you mean by the "Stupid Issue," but they didn't "in general" sell their land voluntarily. Certainly some absentee Arab landlords sold their land. But the Arab population in Palestine opposed the increase of the Jewish population because the new immigrants refused to lease or sell land to Palestinians, or hire them. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

Isreal was not created merely by the purchase of land from Arab Palestinians. Rather, the 1948 Arab-Israeli war resulted in an Israeli victory, with Israel annexing territory beyond the partition borders for a proposed Jewish state and into the borders for a proposed Palestinian Arab state. The "details of the Holocaust had a major effect on the situation in Palestine and propelled large support for the Zionist movement," and the world for the most part agreed that Jews should have that territory as a safe haven. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict

That is what Tlaib is saying: Palestinians lost their land to create a safe haven for Jews following the Holocaust.

[SunSeeker]

37. There was no state of Israel before the Holocaust. What she said was accurate.

There may have been a "Jewish area," but certainly no Jewish state. The Brits were in charge. That changed, in reaction to the Holocaust, and the horrifically democstrated need for an internationally recognized Jewish state that created a safe land for Jews.

[still_one]

43. The Palestinains did not create a safe haven for the Jews. The Mufti of Jerusulam insured that

[SunSeeker]

46. No one said the Palestinians created a safe haven for the Jews. nt

[still_one]

50. She did, according to the Huffington Post

"In an interview with Yahoo News published Saturday, Tlaib ― one of the first Muslim women elected to Congress and the subject of Islamophobic attacks ― explained her support for a one-state solution in the Israel-Palestine conflict. She said her Palestinian ancestors helped “create a safe haven for Jews” following the Holocaust."


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-rashida-tlaib-holocaust-comments_n_5cd97d63e4b054da4e8d16a0

[SunSeeker]

53. That's not what she said. CNN, cited in the OP, quotes her. Why go with Huffpo's take?

Go with what she actually said, per CNN:

She began by noting the recent observance of Holocaust Remembrance Day before veering into the historic position of the state of Israel. 
"There's kind of a calming feeling I always tell 
folks when I think of the Holocaust, and the tragedy of the Holocaust, and the fact that it was my ancestors, Palestinians, who lost their land and some lost their lives, their livelihood, their human dignity, their existence in many ways, have been wiped out, and some people's passports," Tlaib said. 

She continued, "I mean, just all of it was in the name of trying to create a safe haven for Jews, post-the Holocaust, post-the tragedy and the horrific persecution of Jews across the world at that time, and I love the fact that it was my ancestors that provided that, right, in many ways. But they did it in a way that took their human dignity away, right, and it was forced on them. And so when I think about a one-state, I think about the fact that, why couldn't we do it in a better way?"

[AJT]

26. I thought the land was owned by the Ottoman Empire and the

Palestinians were working the land, but did not own it.

[still_one]

44. It was, and then it was under British rule. The statement that the Palestinans created a safe haven

for the Jews is not true

[SunSeeker]

47. Who said that the Palestinians created a safe haven for the Jews? nt

[still_one]

48. She did, according to Huffington Post

"In an interview with Yahoo News published Saturday, Tlaib ― one of the first Muslim women elected to Congress and the subject of Islamophobic attacks ― explained her support for a one-state solution in the Israel-Palestine conflict. She said her Palestinian ancestors helped “create a safe haven for Jews” following the Holocaust."

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/donald-trump-rashida-tlaib-holocaust-comments_n_5cd97d63e4b054da4e8d16a0

and let me make something clear, I am NOT agreeing with the characterization spewed by the jerk in the WH, or his republican counter-parts in Congress. Their characterization is a complete distortion and misrepresentation of what she said.

[SunSeeker]

51. That is not what her quote actually stated.

Last edited Mon May 13, 2019, 09:44 PM - Edit history (1)

Her ancestors did not choose to give up their land voluntarily or offer up their homes to be bulldozed.

Her point was that people's safe haven was taken away against their will in order to create another prople's safe haven. And she asks the simple question: Could this have been done in a better way?

[still_one]

54. That is not quite accurate either, and the Peel and Simpson Commission had different conclusions

[SunSeeker]

55. What's not accurate? nt

[srobertss]

19. I heard the episode before

I heard the response to it and I felt as I listened that she wanted to be inclusive of both sides. She kept saying, “This is a message of love and inclusiveness.”

[Honeycombe8]

56. That subject is a landmine that even the most experienced politicians have trouble with.

We need controversy over Israel and Palestine like a hole in the head. That controversy has been going on since the beginning of time; it's not going to get solved in the next year. Why can't politicians just watch what they say until the election? We'll all still be here to hear whatever they have to say next year.

Alternatively, get it all out of their system now, so it can be forgotten by next year. And don't take the bait; I guarantee you she'll be asked about Israel before the election in 2020. Can't have too many controversies (to their way of thinking).

[srobertss]

57. I agree

I was so excited as a teenager when the movie Exodus aired on TV. The next day my Palestinian American friend told me, "There's more to the story...." And thus began my endless discomfort with the complexity of the whole situation. Nothing is simple or easy to understand. I found Tlaib’s point of view riveting. My only quibble was that she seemed to be in hyperbolic politician mode when clearly Skullduggery was hoping for a little more nuance.

[John Fante]

27. She said nothing wrong.

[qazplm135]

36. I have no idea what you mean by "wrong"

Is it accurate to say the Holocaust led to the Palestinian plight?
No, not really other than the fact that temporally one follows the other.

Did she say anything anti-semitic? No.

Was what she said clumsy and not necessary and distracting from her main point? Yes.

[still_one]

45. True, but some of it was not accurate either. The Palestinans did not create a safe haven for the

Jews, That simply is not accurate. I guess that can be considered clumsy, but even taking the Israeli-Palestinian issue out of the picture, this is the first time that the Representative utilized clumsy wording, and you would think by now she or her advisors would be much more savey a smooth about this.

[pnwmom]

42. I agree. Her statement was very awkwardly worded and practically begged to be misinterpreted.

But all she meant was that knowing about the horrors of the Holocaust put into perspective the relatively lesser harm done to the displaced Palestinians.

[SunSeeker]

6. What was so awful about what she said? It is historically correct, and the rest is innocuous.

"Why couldn't we do it in a better way?" is a good question. We should all be asking that...about a lot of things.

[John Fante]

28. Some people think we need to continuously walk on

eggshells, lest we upset... the Republicans!

[SunSeeker]

35. Yep. nt

[JudyM]

59. Please don't conflate Jews with Republicans. There are Jews who are legitimately upset at yet

another of her comments — one would need to be looking the other way to not see a pattern. That has nothing to do with Republicans.

[pnwmom]

63. They are twisting what she said and taking a phrase out of context to change its meaning.

That isn't legitimate.

"There's kind of a calming feeling I always tell folks when I think of the Holocaust, and the tragedy of the Holocaust, and the fact that it was my ancestors, Palestinians, who lost their land and some lost their lives, their livelihood, their human dignity, their existence in many ways, have been wiped out, and some people's passports.I mean, just all of it was in the name of trying to create a safe haven for Jews, post-the Holocaust, post-the tragedy and the horrific persecution of Jews across the world at that time, and I love the fact that it was my ancestors that provided that, right, in many ways. But they did it in a way that took their human dignity away, right, and it was forced on them. And so when I think about a one-state, I think about the fact that, why couldn't we do it in a better way?"

[JudyM]

66. Who exactly is "they" that you are referring to?

In response to my post... who is “they?”

[4139]

33. She should have said robbing Boutros to compensate Saul because of the crimes of Adolph is wrong

[tymorial]

52. Calming and holocaust are two words that never belong in the same sentence.

This will upset some but I dont particularly care. The language was beyond insensitive and it is no gigantic leap to consider the intent of her message to place the experience of Palestinians over the millions of dead men, women and children that died for no reason other than their blood and religion. Perhaps her words for twisted, she didn't make it very difficult.

[Lady_Chat]

68. +1

Agree with you.

[underthematrix]

64. It sounds like a history lesson.

https://history.state.gov/milestones/1945-1952/creation-israel


The point of the outrage is to silence Palestinian voices by calling them antisemitic. Rep Talib should AVOID trying to tackle policy narratives. It's truly a waste of time.

I think a better way to go is to highlight programs that promote Palestinian excellence like the Smithsonian's global initiative to provide opportunities for Palestinian students interested in STEM or mentoring programs for Palestinian male youth modeled after My Brother's Keeper. In other words, build and nurture Palestinian capacity. That's how you win the future.