Juul's CEO and a Stanford researcher, under oath, disagree on a crucial conversation

[pnwmom]

Source: Yahoo

Juul Labs Co-Founder James Monsees defended the vape giant at a congressional hearing on Thursday by maintaining that he did not take a page out of Big Tobacco’s playbook with its ads, which many blame for the ensuing e-cigarette epidemic among the youth.

At one point, the hearing highlighted a crucial conversation between Monsees and a top researcher Stanford.

Congress questioned Monsees for the first time on Capitol Hill by members of the House Economic and Consumer Policy Subcommittee. Democrats plied Monsees with questions about how it framed its early ads — including how it worked with influencers — drawing on various documents procured from the company.

In an interview with Yahoo Finance in May, Stanford University researcher Dr. Robert Jackler said that when he had met Monsees in 2018, he broached the similarities in terms of the color schemes between Juul’s ‘Vaporized’ campaign and American Spirit. Specifically, Jackler said he told Monsees that “it looks like you ripped that off.”

Read more: https://finance.yahoo.com/news/juul-ceo-advertising-133520764.html?.tsrc=notification-brknews

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The disagreement is about whether Juul Labs deliberately aped early tobacco ads to enhance its appeal.

[JonLP24]

1. As far as e cigs go I have heard of Juul

Probably among the most popular brands while American Spirit tobacco is not that big a brand.

I just use lozenges though they are expensive.

[pnwmom]

2. It's okay for adults who are trying to get off reg cigarettes. The issue is that Juul

seems to be targeting teens, many of whom aren't smoking.

[JonLP24]

3. I'm not the lawyer here so don't know

I started smoking cigarettes when I was 14. I started because my friends smoke. Don't know if cartoon Camel ads consciously influenced my choice years down the road (my dad was a Camel smoker).

This can be hard to regulate as it wasn't hard to get cigarettes especially by the time I went to high school. Stores shouldn't sell to under 18 and adults shouldn't provide it for them.

[3Hotdogs]

4. Juul is popular in Jr and sr high schools. No smoke or odor for staff to find.

My grandson got caught. In N.j., when a kid gets caught, he is drug tested because Marij is often smoked in the device.

He was immediately grounded.

Me: "How long is he grounded for? When are you gonna let him out"

E: "Maybe when he applies for Medicare."

[Oneironaut]

5. What was odd was how Juul was sending (sales) representatives to schools to advertise their product.

Supposedly, they would make the teacher leave the room, and begin a sales pitch about how Juul is perfectly safe and you can never get addicted to it. That's completely frightening.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/25/health/juul-teens-vaping.html

[The Liberal Lion]

6. As a vaper I'm going to tell you all this nonsense about a teen vaping "epidemic"

is little more than hysterics. Sure teens are using Juul's this I won't deny, but the response of government, like San Francisco banning all vape products is simply outrageous. It's called freedom folks. Look I don't know if vaping is healthier than cigarettes, but I smoked cigarettes since I was 12 and only stoped at 44 with vaping. As a matter of fact I wasn't even trying to quit, it just happened. I feel better as a result. When I say better I mean I can now run without being out of breath or feeling like I'm going to have a heart attack. I don't wake up in the morning anymore with a nose full of mucus, and my sense of taste and smell has drastically improved. But here's the deal, I don't give a shit if it's healthier, or better, less harmful. That's not why I vape, I vape because I enjoy it far more than smoking a nasty ass cigarette, cigar, pipe or hookah. My vaping habit is a matter of my freedom, my freedom to decided how to treat my lungs and my body. Being as though second hand vape is more of a potential annoyance than an actual health hazard to the environment, and the annoyance it provides is no more than someone wearing a funky or too much cologne or perfume I'm not so worried about someone getting caught in one of my clouds, although I do practice vape etiquette. I personally have never used a Juul, I'm one of those geeks you see blowing big ass clouds with advanced vape gear that I use between 60 to 120 watts. Juul is not for a vaper like me, it's actually suppose to be used to help people stop smoking. Now did Juul actively market to people below 18? The vape community seems to think so. I personally don't know because like I said a device like Juul is not on my radar. However, the general alarm over teens using Juul is overwrought, and the measures being taken against the vape industry as a whole is obscene. Me personally if one of my teen children was caught Juuling (as the kids say) I wouldn't be upset at all. Vaping does not lead to smoking cigarettes and anyone who tells you it does a) has never vaped and b) is completely full of shit. Smoking taste like shit, vaping taste outstanding (depending on your device and e-liquid used of course). Even the worst juice tastes far superior to the best cigarette. Vaping even has a better taste than using a hookah with sweetened and flavored tobacco. The danger with smoking was never really with nicotine, although admittedly it does have it's adverse effects on the body, the danger with smoking was the amount of tar and carcinogens in the smoke. Vape is not without it's pathogens, but for fucks sake, you know with is worse than vaping? Breathing the fucking air in any major American city, that's what. On that note all the histrionics surrounding vaping should just stop. Those who engage in it just look pathetic. Sure, go after Juul for the marketing tactics if they are found to have marketed to teens. But stay away from vaping in general. As far as I'm concerned, paraphrasing Charleston Heston, you'll get my vape rig "when you pry it from my cold dead hands".

(full disclosure: in addition to being a real estate broker I do as well own a vape shop and a e-liquid company)

[Lionel Mandrake]

7. Because you sell vape products,

you have a vested interest in convincing people, against all evidence, that there is no teen vaping epidemic. Shame on you.

[The Liberal Lion]

8. No shame on you for allowing yourself to believe such hogwash

My vape company isn't even in America, I don't sell my products in America nor will it be effected by any regulations that come about in America.

So much for your "vested interest" hypothesis.

My advice, ask more questions before you reveal erroneous conclusions in public.

[Lionel Mandrake]

9. Your English is as bad as your reasoning ability and (lack of) ethics.

The word is "affected", not "effected". The fact that your company isn't in America does not contradict my assertion (not "hypothesis" ) that you have a vested interest. Wherever you prey on the gullible, it is in your interest to keep them gullible. And you can keep your advice to yourself.

People like you are profoundly immoral and malevolent.

[The Liberal Lion]

12. Outside of your correction of my English your statement is wholly incorrect

However, like you could care a less about what I have to say I as well hold your statement in similar regard. If you think I'm immoral, well fine. So be it. I don't give a shit. But thank you for correcting my English. That I do give a shit about.

[The Liberal Lion]

14. Let me further say that if I'm "profoundly immoral and malevolent"

which I won't deny, then surely you must think your vegetable grocer the same.
The following vegetables contain MORE nicotine per serving than the vaping of an entire Juul pod in one setting (which no one does):
1. Tomatoes
2. Potatoes
3. Eggplant
4. Many teas

Everyone, and I do mean everyone, who consumes a normal diet ingests nicotine.
So now that you have the whole story I'm wanting you to go down to your local grocery and start your moralizing. M'kay?

[pnwmom]

21. Your link supporting your claims? Mine is from researchers at McGill University.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/did-you-know/eggplants-contain-nicotine

Eggplant seeds (and they have many) contain nicotinoid alkaloids, which are responsible for the slightly bitter taste of the purple berry. The concentration of nicotine itself is about 100 nanograms per gram of eggplant, compared with 2 milligrams of nicotine per cigarette. So, if you’re willing to eat 20 000 grams of eggplant (around 20 eggplants) for breakfast, you could skip your morning cigarette.

[The Liberal Lion]

24. I answered your question below

But I'll do it here too
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4565991/

[pnwmom]

28. Your link doesn't support your claim.

All it says is that e-cigarettes expose nonusers to nicotine but not to the other hazards in tobacco products. And that more research is needed to evaluate the health consequences of secondhand exposure.

Conclusion:

Using an e-cigarette in indoor environments may involuntarily expose nonusers to nicotine but not to toxic tobacco-specific combustion products. More research is needed to evaluate health consequences of secondhand exposure to nicotine, especially among vulnerable populations, including children, pregnant women, and people with cardiovascular conditions.

[The Liberal Lion]

34. I think you skipped something

Namely:
The air concentrations of nicotine emitted by various brands of e-cigarettes ranged from 0.82 to 6.23 µg/m3. The average concentration of nicotine resulting from smoking tobacco cigarettes was 10 times higher than from e-cigarettes (31.60±6.91 vs. 3.32±2.49 µg/m3, respectively; p = .0081).

Now compare the amount of nicotine found in second hand vape to the amount of nicotine you found per gram of eggplant. You will find they are nearly comparable.

[pnwmom]

37. And that is irrelevant because inhaling nicotine affects the body differently than ingesting it. n/t

[Politicub]

22. You don't inhale tomatoes or eggplant into your lungs, right?

But I suppose some people may enjoy a pulmonary ratatouille now and then.

[The Liberal Lion]

27. It does not matter if you eat nicotine

or ingest through inhalation you will still experience the effects. Just think you can be effected by THC for instance by inhaling the vaporized chemical (through smoking or heating it up) or by eating it. The same is true of nicotine.

[pnwmom]

29. That isn't true. Inhaling a substance pulls it into your lungs, and from there it gets into your

bloodstream and into your brain.

A substance that is ingested goes through the digestive system, and not directly to your brain. Yes, substances ingested can affect the brain but in much different amounts. The researchers found that it would take eating 20 eggplants to equal the amount of nicotine obtained in inhaling a single cigarette.

[The Liberal Lion]

33. Again, we were not talking about inhaling a cigarette

we are talking about vapor and more specifically a JUUL pod. A juul pod contains FAR LESS nicotine than a cigarette. With a cigarette not only are we talking about nicotine not absorbed by the body at the time of inhalation by the smoker that is released upon exhalation, but as well the vaporized free nicotine that comes from the front of the cigarette as a result of combustion. No vaporized nicotine comes out of the front of a device like the Juul. These two methods of nicotine delivery are in no way comparable. You want to compare a Juul with food intake, fine, but comparing it to cigarette smoke is just not a valid.

[klook]

32. Purple Lung Disease is nothing to joke about. (nt)

[Jedi Guy]

16. I'd argue the immorality would be in not disclosing that he/she owns a vape shop, personally.

With that disclosure having been made, the vested interest is made clear and the subjectivity of the statements made is also clear. Once you've identified someone as a salesperson, you know to be on your guard regarding what they say. If they pretend not to be a salesperson, that's a bit different.

Is there a teen vaping epidemic? I suppose it depends on how one defines "epidemic." Is it good for teens to vape? No, given what nicotine does to developing brains. Any addictive substance rewires dopamine pathways, so that's definitely not desirable for brains still developing.

The problem with coming down hard on the vape industry folks who are aiming their products at kids is that you're probably also gonna come down hard on those vape industry folks who aren't doing that, too, in addition to the consumers. If they ban any flavors that could theoretically be aimed at kids, 99% of the flavors out there are history.

I'd say treat it just like cigarettes when it comes to fines and such. If manufacturers target kids with their ads, fine the living hell out of them. If a vape shop sells to someone below the legal age, fine the hell out of them. Leave the responsible manufacturers and sellers out of it, and try not to screw it up for your average vape consumer, who just really wants to avoid smoking cigarettes.

[Lionel Mandrake]

18. Your points are well taken.

[The Liberal Lion]

25. Well said

[emmaverybo]

30. Very sensible post. NT

[Lionel Mandrake]

10. What the FDA says is more convincing than your rant.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/e-cigarette-use-epidemic-fda-chief-says-n908781

[pnwmom]

11. You acknowledge that the vape community thinks Juul has been marketed to teens. That's the issue

here, and there's nothing hysterical in the article I posted. By comparison, your post seems a bit overwrought.

You overlook a mountain of evidence on the real risk of nicotine to the developing brain. As I said, I think it's fine if nicotine addicts use vape products to reduce or eliminate their dependence on cigarettes. I don't think it's fine for these companies to target their nicotine delivery systems to young people with developing brains. And I don't think it's fine for these nicotine delivery systems to be used in places where other people, including babies and children, have to deal with the second or third hand exposure.

[The Liberal Lion]

13. I didn't say the post was hysterical

I said the response of government was hysterical. Deal with Juul if it is found their marketing practices targeted teens. The vaping community is also of this opinion. But leave the rest of the vaping community alone.

[The Liberal Lion]

15. As i said above to a different poster

Many foods that we consume, including those we feed our babies contain nicotine including tomatoes, potatoes, egg plant and many teas. A portion of eggplant, for instance, contains more nicotine than sitting in a cigarette smoke filled room for 30 hours. People who feed their babies mashed potatoes are delivering as much nicotine to them as if they were smoking a cigarette in front of them. Does nicotine have an effect on growing brains. Yes it does. But the dosage has to be far higher than what could be delivered by second hand vape ESPECIALLY from a pod type device, which itself delivers not so much of cloud of vapor due to it being a low power device. I am not recommending vaping in front of one's baby, but I want to give you some perspective. So if you concerned about exposure to nicotine in children you must be concerned about the consumption of the above mentioned vegetables as they will deliver far more nicotine to these developing brains and more often than this second hand or third hand (which I don't even know what you mean by third hand) exposure to vape.

[pnwmom]

17. You would need to eat 20 pounds of eggplant to get the amount of nicotine in a single cigarette.

So the risk isn't comparable.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/did-you-know/eggplants-contain-nicotine

Eggplant seeds (and they have many) contain nicotinoid alkaloids, which are responsible for the slightly bitter taste of the purple berry. The concentration of nicotine itself is about 100 nanograms per gram of eggplant, compared with 2 milligrams of nicotine per cigarette. So, if you’re willing to eat 20 000 grams of eggplant (around 20 eggplants) for breakfast, you could skip your morning cigarette.

[The Liberal Lion]

23. Well you were talking about second hand vape

Since nicotine is rapidly absorbed once it is in the body, and amount of nicotine in Juul pod is .035 mg per .7ml pod, and that nicotine is in salt form instead of freebase form (where the salt form is more efficiently absorbed by the body) how much nicotine do you actually believe is still available for second hand vape?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4565991/

[pnwmom]

26. Second hand vape gets absorbed into the 2nd hand vapers lungs, and from there

into the bloodstream, and to the brain.

This doesn't happen with the small amounts of nicotine in foods that are eaten.

Just keep your vaping out of other people's air space. Cigarette smokers do that, and so can you.

[The Liberal Lion]

31. Of course it's absorbed into the blood stream and therefore makes it to the brain by way of eating

already in the mouth nicotine is rapidly absorbed during mastication before it can even reach the stomach, this is why chewing tobacco is so addictive and why nicotine gum works. Now, while the absorption of nicotine in the stomach is not as efficient as it is by way of the lungs, or the mucus lining in the mouth nevertheless nicotine is absorbed into the bloodstream via the stomach by way of oral ingestion.

[EllieBC]

19. My husband quit smoking by vaping. Not with a Juul though.

Last edited Sat Jul 27, 2019, 11:08 PM - Edit history (1)

Just a refillable tank, MTL set up. Worked his way down to 0 nicotine ejuice over the course of a year than just quit that too. I guess he should just go back to smoking. At least that keeps the tax coffers full.

edited because I have fat fingers.

[pnwmom]

20. No one is suggesting that a cigarette smoker isn't better off switching to e-cigs.

But Juul and other makers shouldn't be marketing to unaddicted teens.

[EllieBC]

35. Sometimes just by existing they are marketing to teens.

You don't think alcohol makers know those sexy posters and swag they offer at the beer stores here aren't attractive?

[pnwmom]

36. They deliberately copied the types of cigarette ads that had targeted teens.

This isn't just a coincidence.