Pfizer COVID vaccine significantly less effective against Delta variant

[LovingA2andMI]

Source: The Jerusalem Post

The effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine against the Delta variant is “weaker” than health officials hoped, Prime Minister Naftali Bennett said Friday, as 855 people tested positive for coronavirus and more countries were listed as places of high infection.

“We do not know exactly to what degree the vaccine helps, but it is significantly less,” Bennett said.

The prime minister held a meeting of top health officials and ministers to discuss the next steps for managing the virus in light of the numbers in Israel and what Bennett described as “the Delta mutation leaping forward around the world, including in vaccinated countries such as Britain, Israel and the US.”

He said that “Britain, in recent days, we have seen a jump in the number of children who are being hospitalized on a daily basis. This is a development that we are aware of; we are dealing with it rationally and responsibly.”

Read more: https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/for-first-time-since-march-855-new-coronavirus-cases-in-israel-674084

[hlthe2b]

1. UK is not vaccinating children--even those 12-17 yo. So, jump in child hospitalizations in UK

is not indicative of decreased vaccination efficacy despite the misleading way in which it is included in the article. It clearly is indicative of wide spread of Delta variant and likely underscores both its increased infectiousness and potential virulence--among the unvaccinated.

[JohnSJ]

14. +++

[róisín_dubh]

54. Thank you.

I swear to god, the media is not helping.

[womanofthehills]

61. Did you read the whole article in OP?

It says kids who are vaxed and unvaxed in UK are coming down with the virus equally.


“The likely explanation is that among current virus carriers, about 2,000 are schoolchildren, and half of them were fully vaccinated. Both groups are very unlikely to develop severe forms of the disease, even though it occasionally happens.”

[janterry]

2. I really wish there was more science and less news about this

I mean. I appreciate the article. But there are SO many articles. I want a proper research study.

In fact, I want several proper research studies -- based all around the world.

[Aussie105]

70. Research articles require data.

That data is being gathered at the moment.

Too early for a valid statistical analysis, too early for research articles.

Meanwhile, the media will play this for all it's worth. That's their job.

[Siwsan]

3. I'm the only one in my family that received Pfizer

Everyone else received Moderna.

I'm avoiding crowds (I'm skipping my 50th class reunion), still masking when I am out, and absolutely still hand sanitizing, so I'm relatively, sort of, nearly, almost not OVERLY concerned. But when I go in for my next medical appt., I'm asking my HCP about another jab. They gave Moderna and I will gladly take that as a 'booster', if it's compatible (and I understand it is). And, if not, I'll go where ever the Pfizer booster is available.

[SWBTATTReg]

4. Pfizer is pushing for a 3rd booster shot, I'm not sure how successful they'll be ... obviously some

sort of booster shot may or will be needed but I'm not a medical expert, so I am just shooting for the moon here/pure guessing here...

[FarPoint]

21. I myself...I seem set on taking a Moderna Booster...

I don't think any one has a finger on how long the vaccine remains potent. I had the Moderna x 2 series...I plan on sticking with same manufacturer.

[womanofthehills]

62. Pfizer's Delta booster is already being used in Israel

They are now vaccinating the immune compromised with the Delta booster. Last Monday, Pfizer had an hour zoom call with our health officials supposedly to start using the booster here but supposedly our guys are not yet ready to go there.

[SWBTATTReg]

72. Thanks. It may get to the point where an annual booster shot will be needed

for Covid, one that could be just as important, or even more important, than the annual flu shot, being that Covid is so much deadlier.

With so many variants already detected in roughly 1 year+- or so w/ Covid, I hope that politics get put to the side, as politicians aren't doctors and thus, don't need to be interfering with efforts to fight this deadly disease (get into an annual routine like for the annual flu shots).

[hlthe2b]

10. You seem to be assuming that Pfizer is less effective. The data come from Israel which used Pfizer

mostly and a bit of Astra Zeneca-- so that is why Pfizer is specific to the findings REPORTED from Israel. It does NOT mean that Moderna is not equally if not slightly more vulnerable (given the early vaccination trials) to decreased efficacy against the Delta strain because the methodology is so similar and some small studies have shown that.

This is not a specific Pfizer issue.

[LymphocyteLover]

17. yeah, I don't see why Moderna would be different for this issue

[DVDGuy]

44. Moderna/Pfizer are comparable vaccines

From what I've read, Moderna and Pfizer are very similar vaccines with the only difference being the "packaging" around the vaccine as a way to get it into your body so it accepts it. They would have fairly similar efficacy. The Delta strain is a monster, both more infectious and more deadly, but luckily, any of the vaccines out now, even AZ, will greatly reduce the chance of hospitalisation and deaths (for Pfizer, around 1/10th of the chance compared to not being vaccinated, and that's assuming you catch the virus, the chance of that reduced to 1/5th - so roughly 50 times less likely to die from the Delta variant - this is basically getting into seasonal flu numbers).

Still got to wear a mask and get tested if you have symptoms though, mainly to protect the partially vaccinated, unvaccinated and those that are immune-compromised. Once 85%+ of the population are fully vaccinated, and herd immunity kicks in, we can start relaxing.

For those that are not vaccinating, take note. COVID-19 will be around for a long, long time, and it will eventually become as common as the flu. It's not a matter of "if" you'll get it, it's a matter of "when". So the real question is: do you prefer to get COVID as a vaccinated person or do you prefer to get COVID without any vaccination?

[imavoter]

45. wait...there's a booster availalbe for Pfizer

is that a thing?

[Siwsan]

46. There's talk of one - of course there's also lots of conflicting information

I remember hearing, much earlier in the year, that there might be one. Now with showing this easing of effectiveness I should HOPE something is offered.

[LisaL]

57. Booster could be the same vaccine we already got.

It's just a third dose.
It could also be modified to protect against a specific variant, but right now it would appear a third dose of exact same vaccine will work (increasing antibodies 5-10 fold per Pfizer).

[womanofthehills]

63. Israel is using Delta booster for at risk adults

From WSJ -

Israel Begins Pfizer Booster Shots for At-Risk Adults as Delta Cases Rise
Move comes as Pfizer plans to seek clearance from U.S. regulators to distribute a booster shot

[vanlassie]

7. Get it right? Predict the future? What do you mean, exactly?

[LovingA2andMI]

13. What Was Meant is

Get It Right. There are lives on the line. The truth and nothing but must be told. Period. The efficacy is obviously not 95%. They can start there and keep on going with the rest of the truth - whatever it might be.

[LymphocyteLover]

18. I don't think they are covering up any "truth", just that these things are complicated to assess

and we have only limited data still

[Sucha NastyWoman]

24. At the time these vaccines were released there weren't any variants yet

Or at least not the Delta variant. So how can you “get it right” for something that doesn’t yet exist?

[C Moon]

34. "whatever it might be" ...brother.

[hlthe2b]

12. What a ludicrous post.

I don't know where to begin, beyond asking you to PLEASE educate yourself. Your post is just the most ridiculous misunderstanding of the issue I've seen to date.

There is NOTHING in this finding to suggest we should throw out the most effective vaccines in the world against this or any other CORONAVIRUS to date and start over. Honestly, I'd like to help you with this, but I have to go back to work. Please. listen to some of the others on DU with expertise and do some reading.

[vanlassie]

15. Yea... maybe someone with more patience will try to

help you with your extreme over generalizations. I can’t even. Have a good day.

[womanofthehills]

64. Sounds like the current vaccines are very sub optimal

When it comes to Delta. So - Israel which has lots of breakthrough cases has started vaccinating the immune compromised with Pfizer’s new vaccine - the Delta booster.

[FarPoint]

22. They did get it right.....

Effectiveness time frame requires the product to be in use for a predictable length of time....Vaccines for covid just started December 202...

[AngryOldDem]

23. I can see the need to get boosters, like with flu shots.

This virus will keep mutating. I had the Moderna vaccine, and I feel confident that I’m adequately protected. But if they recommend a third shot, I’m good with that, too. Nothing is a panacea, and this is no exception. Nobody has said any differently.

[lagomorph777]

73. I see it as more like an update. Like antivirus software, it needs to match the latest viruses.

[roamer65]

6. 855 out of how many million?

855 breakthrough infections?

[LovingA2andMI]

8. Counterpoint....

The article says cases are rising in UK and USA. This was also confirmed by the data of cases rising in all 50 states. LA County has returned back to masking. Sorry, but these cases are not all among individuals that are unvaxxed.

855 is what has been tested with PCR. How many people just stay home and deal with the effects and refuse to get tested?

The Delta is claimed to be "more transmissible". People for the large part have returned to work out of their homes. They are shopping and living life for a large part unmasked except indoors and that is a maybe.

Here is the thing. We need to get it right. PERIOD. And we need to be told the truth and nothing but. Too many lives are on the line and 855 is not a insufficient number at all, no matter how many millions have got the vaccine. We need to know ALL of the data and ALL of the facts.

[roamer65]

9. Article isn't very clear on that "855".

I’d like to see more hard data, like you.

[LovingA2andMI]

11. It is doubtful...

It is 85 or they would not be reporting it and the PM Bennett would not be talking about it in this way. There is still too much not known.

Our political lens is OFF. It is what is the real data, real facts and what need to really be done. Lives are more important than a political lens IMHO.

[LisaL]

29. 855 is how many new covid infections were recorded on Friday in Israel.

Israel had under 100 daily infections for a while (until delta hit).

[wnylib]

47. And Israel is the most vaccinated country in the world.

[LisaL]

49. They also used Pfizer almost exclusively.

Pfizer is clearly one of the best vaccines around (if not the best). If delta is breaking through Pfizer, it is also breaking through other vaccines.

[wnylib]

50. True. At the very least, we should pay attention to

Israel's experience as an example of the need for continued precautions.

Since we don't have enough data, the reason for the dip in effectiveness is unknown, but I think it could involve time as well as the highly infectious nature of delta. It has been over 6 months since the first vaccinations rolled out. There was some intial thought that vaccines would be less effective aftet 6 months. I'd like to see some data on when delta breakthrough patients got their shots.

[womanofthehills]

65. The dip in effectiveness is also happening in UK

Not good.

[JohnSJ]

16. In LA County it was reported no fully vaccinated person had been hospitalized for COVID.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2021/07/14/health/los-angeles-county-covid-cases/index.html

[Lovie777]

32. I'm in LA County .....

per health officials - all hospitalization re: COVID (Delta) are unvaccinated people.

I personally know that some people will "claim" that they are fully vaccinated (not) - wear no masks.

At this point in time - everyone, including children should wear masks.

[JohnSJ]

36. I am in the bay area in Northern California, and while it was not mandated, the health officials

up here have strongly recommended to wear masks inside public places whether vaccinated or not.

I hope this motivates people who haven't been vaccinated to get vaccinated.

Stay safe Lovie777

[Sucha NastyWoman]

25. No, not all cases are among the unvaxxed, but very nearly all of them are.

[JohnSJ]

37. They said all "Hospitalized" cases were not vaccinated

[LisaL]

27. 855 is the total number of new covid infections Israel had on Friday.

NT

[LymphocyteLover]

19. this article is shamefully lacking any hard numbers and doesn't even really discuss breakthrough

infections to any degree.

[womanofthehills]

66. half of Adults infected were vaccinated

A rise in vaccine breakthrough infections

"About half of adults infected in an outbreak of the Delta variant of Covid-19 in Israel were fully inoculated with the Pfizer Inc. vaccine," reports Dov Lieber for The Wall Street Journal from Tel Aviv on June 25.
https://www.wsj.com/articles/vaccinated-people-account-for-half-of-new-covid-19-delta-cases-in-israeli-outbreak-11624624326We

[Bayard]

20. I would think,

and hope, that scientists are still working on vaccines to combat the next variants coming down the road.

This is a way of life now.

[JohnSJ]

39. Pfizer already indicated they were, and believe boosters will be required. They were critisized

for those comments by the CDC and FDA, because they said it was premature to say they would be needed currently

[joetheman]

26. What about Moderna???

[LisaL]

28. Barely used in Israel so they have no information on it.

NT

[wnylib]

48. Moderna has been working on a booster

for some months, since before delta.

[relayerbob]

30. ALL viruses mutate

Hence the need for flu shots each year. This is no different.

If everyone would cooperate, we could slow the rate of mutation by slowing the number of infections. Meanwhile, scare headlines are meaningless

[Traildogbob]

31. I am Pfizer

Obviously will keep An eye on the scientific Data coming. I would be more concerned with J and J and the one shot. They just had to recall tanning lotion, 5 varieties that have benzene in them, all from J and J. Recklessness with a carcinogen. My late wife died 20 years ago, and she used the baby powder all the time. She got cervical cancer. We did not know at the time, but they are facing 10’s of thousands of lawsuits from cancer victims because of asbestos in the powder. And remember one of trumps first orders was to bring back asbestos use. Made in Russia! Within days shiploads of the shit came here from Pooty Poot. So, Biden, wassup? Waiting to hear more about Moderna and J and J effectiveness against Delta.

[crimycarny]

33. Ugh--this is why we need a good antiviral as well

Antivirals aren't as sensitive to mutations. At least that's the case with flu. Tamiflu was introduced in 1999 and it's still been effective against flu strains 22 years later. Antivirals can also be used post-exposure to prevent ever developing the disease if you are exposed--assuming you take it soon enough that is. Finally, antivirals can work for those whose immune systems don't evoke a strong enough immune response to a vaccine.

Vaccines are crucial--I got my COVID vaccine as soon as I was eligible--but I hope we get some strong antivirals soon. Maybe the idiots who won't get vaccinated will be more willing to take a pill. Whatever is going to work, because obviously logic isn't.

[BumRushDaShow]

40. The one issue of drugs such as Tamiflu and Relenza

is that they need to be administered right way - basically at onset of symptoms or shortly after, in order to be most effective (where their job is to reduce the severity of the infection). And with the flu, you pretty much know when you got it when you suddenly get knocked on your ass pretty quickly by it.

But the problem with COVID-19 is that in a number cases, people can contract it and be "asymptomatic", not knowing they are infected, and spreading it in while in that asymptomatic state. And unless they are continually tested for it and/or someone close to them unknowingly contracts it from them and is symptomatic, prompting them to get tested, it would make anti-virals like those ineffective because the virus has already taken hold, and the longer you wait to finally take them, the less effective they can be. Of course actually contracting the disease prompts the body to eventually generate antibodies against it, but the level of antibodies apparently varies significantly from person to person and they are finding that they are not as persistent as vaccine-triggered antibodies.

And now with the Delta variant, some of the symptoms that are presenting in those who contract it, are "new" for COVID-19 - i.e., "cold-like" or "allergy-like" (sniffing/sneezing), which could then be interpreted by the infected as "just a cold", and they would wave away testing and/or treatment - until it's too late, especially if/when the other "classic" symptoms start up.

[crimycarny]

58. Antivirals can be taken prophylactically (post-exposure)

Antivirals aren't perfect but they can fill gaps that, along with vaccines, will help to get this under control.

The gaps they can fill are for immunocompromised whose bodies don't respond strongly enough to vaccination to evoke a strong enough response. Same for the elderly who don't always have a strong enough immune response to vaccinations.

Antivirals can be taken post-exposure. So if there is an outbreak and you think you might have been exposed you can take an antiviral and never develop the disease (or have a milder case).

Once you develop symptoms of COVID you can take an antiviral and reduce your risk of getting sick. Can't take a vaccine at the point, too late.

Vaccines are great, I'm not suggesting they aren't and I wish more people would get vaccinateded, but we need more than one weapon. Vaccination AND antivirals will give us even more ammunition.

[BumRushDaShow]

67. That basically what I said...

Except that with the two mentioned for flu, they are only most effective at or shortly after onset of symptoms and with the flu, you DO get some very obvious tell-tale symptoms. If you have been sick with the flu for over a week or more and then try taking one of those antivirals, it will pretty much not make much difference, and given their cost, they become a waste of money.

The problem with a COVID-19 infection is that unlike the flu, if someone is infected AND untested to confirm, AND ends up "asymptomatic" for some extended time before symptoms actually begin, then the antiviral is not going to have much impact once any symptoms do appear.

The only way to mitigate that is to have testing early enough to determine if someone is infected but asymptomatic, and THEN administer the antiviral to help reduce the course of the virus any further (in combination with the vaccine), before the onset of symptoms.

[crimycarny]

60. AT-527 reduced viral load by 70% in patients already hospitalized

This antiviral looks promising and I'm keeping my eye on it. Reducing viral load by 70% vs placebo in hospitalized patients, means they were pretty darn sick when they were given the antiviral versus "administered right away". Their viral load had to be pretty high to be hospitalized.

The interim analysis of the Phase 2 study included data from 70 hospitalized, high-risk patients with COVID-19 of which data from 62 patients were evaluable for virology analysis. Interim virology results indicated that AT-527 rapidly reduced viral load levels. At Day 2, patients receiving AT-527 experienced a 0.7 log10 (80%) greater mean reduction from baseline viral load as compared to placebo. A sustained difference in viral load reduction was maintained through Day 8.

https://ir.ateapharma.com/news-releases/news-release-details/ateas-527-oral-antiviral-drug-candidate-reduces-viral

[BumRushDaShow]

68. As you know

at present, Remdesivir is the current anti-viral approved for this use, although over time after evaluating longer-term study data, it was found that Remdesivir was not improving outcomes as much as hoped and is no longer being recommended - https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210716/large-remdesivir-study-finds-no-covid-19-survival-benefit

I agree that having some anti-viral will be advantageous. The hope will be that they will be effective for some of these variants.

[crimycarny]

74. Remdesivir was not optimal in any case-- and not all antivirals are the same

Remdesivir had to be administered via IV, so was never optimal though it would have been great if it worked in the severely ill.

Just because Remdesivir didn't work doesn't future antivirals won't. Look at AZT for HIV, it was a disappointment but now we've got antivirals that keep the HIV virus undetectable.

Progress, not perfection. I'm going to remain optimistic.

[BumRushDaShow]

75. I am certainly not against anti-virals

My whole point was that for COVID-19, because of the way it manifests with some percentage of people who can be "asymptomatic" and have no idea that they are even infected, the hope is to find one that can be an effective prophylactic in advanced infection cases vs the comparison with something like Tamiflu or Relenza, that were designed to be used right at onset.

[crimycarny]

76. Agree

Totally agree that finding an antiviral that can be used post-exposure is crucial in the fight against a virus like COVID where people are often asymptomatic or it takes a while for symptoms to show. I believe AT-527 is showing promise for prophylactic use so my fingers and toes are crossed.

[Sgent]

43. We don't have a good antiviral

for anything. Tamiflu is better than nothing, but its a lot closer to nothing than antibiotics for community acquired pneumonia.

IMHO we have a better chance of getting a mRNA booster out than an antiviral that works.

[crimycarny]

59. Tamiflu has been amazing for those who are immunocompromised or elderly

Have you taken Tamiflu before? I know of two years in the last 5-6 where the flu shot missed the mark and people who were vaccinated got the flu anyway. Tamiflu was a life safer those two years. CDC actually sent out an advisory to doctors to prescribe Tamiflu for their elderly patients because they weren't responding to the vaccine.

My daughter got the flu in 2019 from her roommate who had had the flu shot. Her roommate's mom is a doctor, got her Tamiflu right away. Both had their fevers go away after about 24 hours, 48 hours later almost all symptoms were completely gone, 72 hours later it was as if they had never had the flu at all. My husband had the same result with Tamiflu the year he got the flu. I know of many many MANY people who have had similar experiences with Tamiflu.

Tamiflu has been far far better than "nothing" in my personal experience.

It's not an "either/or". I'm simply stating we need both. Those mRNA boosters aren't going to help those whose immune responses aren't strong enough.

[bucolic_frolic]

35. I had the Pfizer

months ago, early this year, and today I got a text from CDC - a followup to their surveys on health in the 2 weeks after the vaccine. So I'm thinking they are seeing how many are sick now that Delta is loose. The survey surprised me because I thought they surveying was all done long ago.

[NH Ethylene]

38. Israel has agreed to buy a third dose from Pfizer.

So this may be part of the PR campaign to support that decision.

[LisaL]

51. I think their increasing infection rates is support enough.

NT

[NH Ethylene]

52. Then why the unsupported hyperbole? n/t

[LisaL]

53. There is no un-supported hyperbole.

A lot of fully vaccinated people are getting infected with delta covid in Israel.

[Evolve Dammit]

41. I sincerely hope CDC and others are on top of the variant strains, rate of infection and need for

boosters with an objective eye, and not what was suppressed under Orange Julius.

[Cryptoad]

42. This thread should be removed

not accurate and peddles teh Right wing tlking points on how dangerous vax are...

[elias7]

55. Israel's study is the outlier of half a dozen evals of Pfizer and delta

[elias7]

56. Here's a link a broader discussion of vax vs Covid

https://www.healthline.com/health-news/heres-how-well-covid-19-vaccines-work-against-the-delta-variant

[Aussie105]

69. No vaccine will give you 100% immunity.

I've had the first AstraZ shot and I have no illusions that I'm safe.
Still won't be after the second shot has been had and has had 2 weeks to give maximum effect.

I can still catch it, get sick from it, and spread it.

But the chances of being hospitalized and dying from it are greatly reduced.

Same for other vaccinations.

Boosters are a given. Same as the flu vaccination.

[Karma13612]

71. Hmmphh

I wonder if Moderna stats are available for here in the states.

Moderna vs Pfizer. Hubby and I got Moderna and I was wicked sick with dose#2. I recall people seemed to get sicker responses to Moderna than to Pfizer. As a result, maybe there IS a difference between the 2 vaccines.