Parents knew Oxford High suspect was troubled, charged with manslaughter, officials say

[demmiblue]

Last edited Fri Dec 3, 2021, 02:22 PM - Edit history (1)

Source: The Detroit News

Pontiac — Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald on Friday filed involuntary manslaughter charges against the suspect's parents in the Oxford High School shooting.

Jennifer and James Crumbley — the parents of 15-year-old Ethan Crumbley, who is accused of killing four of his classmates and wounding seven others — were charged with four counts of involuntary manslaughter in the deaths of Hana St. Juliana, 14; Madisyn Baldwin, 17; Tate Myre, 16; and Justin Shilling, 17.

“These charges are intended to hold individuals who contributed to this tragedy accountable, but also to send a message,” McDonald said at a press conference. “We need to do better in this country. We need to say enough is enough. For our kids, teachers and all of us.”

McDonald said Ethan Crumbley was with father James when the father bought the Sig Sauer Model SP 2022 9 mm semi-automatic pistol at Acme Shooting Goods in Oxford on Nov. 26.

Read more: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/local/oakland-county/2021/12/03/oxford-high-school-shooting-suspect-parents-prosecutor-charges/8850273002/

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[SoCalDavidS]

1. Awesome!

Just the news I was waiting for.

[agingdem]

14. every parent of every deranged kid should

be charged with involuntary manslaughter and, if it's possible, additional charges if those parents proudly display their guns in their homes...and if mom and dad swear they had no idea what their monster of a kid was up to, they are lying...

[TexasBushwhacker]

55. If the child gets the gun from the parents home, then yes

Absolutely. Now, sometimes the disturbed kid buys the gun off the street, in which case I wouldn't hold the parents responsible.

[Goonch]

2. "It's a strong statement that I hope people will pay attention to and get this message that,

if you decide that you're going to bring a gun into your home and you have underage youth — particularly if they have issues — you better darn secure those guns."

[redstatebluegirl]

61. They look like Magas from the insurrection.

[LiberatedUSA]

3. They would not do this, if they didn't feel they could get a conviction.

If this is for show, then wow. But considering this is the first of its kind for this kind of thing, they must be confident. The timing of the gun purchase?

[wnylib]

23. It's not the first of its kind in Michigan.

The article mentions a precedent in which parents were charged after their 6 year old took their gun from a shoebox where they kept it, took it to school, and killed a classmate.

I hope they get a conviction on the parents.

[EndlessWire]

72. The timing of the school interactions is what is important

The school gave them 48 hours to get their kid into counseling. But, they allowed the kid to return to the school. So, how serious was their concern? This shooting happened the next day. Meanwhile, the parents appear to have been trying to do something about the situation. The father discovered the gun missing and reported it to the police. I am sorry for the victims, and I don't think the kid should ever be free again, but completely blaming the parents isn't fair. It is a natural reaction, however, and I would also be feeling that way if it were my dead kid.

I believe that, at a Federal level, all parents of troubled kids should have access to 100% FREE mental health care. They should be able to obtain this help before the problems escalate, and not as part of some system where the kid does something and THEN gets help, or the parent has to abandon the kid in order to facilitate mental health care. Sheltering institutional representatives from lawsuits is also important, because, given what they saw from the kid, they should have been able to search the backpack right away, suspend the kid on the spot, or even ordered him to go in on a 72-hour hold, all without repercussions for their judgment. They should have immunity for those safety actions.

They are going to charge the kid as an adult. So, which is it, adult or kid? All the charges on the parents are because they didn't manage their underage kid very well, or at all. See my point?

I no longer have school age children, but I would be exploring home school at this point, even without the pandemic. It isn't worth it, sports, social activities, and all. School co-ops might work.

[Cha]

78. So Why did the parents

Run like Cowards?

I think the Prosecutor is Dead On.

[karynnj]

79. No response of the parents cancels the fact that they did not secure the gun That alone makes them

guilty given the fact that they KNEW he was troubled and they BOUGHT HIM A GUN!

As to getting help for mental health issues -- I don't think we know anything yet about whether there was any effort to get mental health assistance. It is not clear that they did not have the ability to pay for therapy.

[CrispyQ]

4. Any chance he thought a teenaged white boy would get off cuz Rittenhouse did? -nt

[SoCalDavidS]

6. If So, He's Even More Of An Idiot

The circumstances are NOWHERE NEAR the same.

I won't get into a discussion about Kyle's acquittal, but there is ZERO evidence of "self defense" when a kid goes into a school and starts blowing away his fellow students and teachers.

[CrispyQ]

12. Yeah, but logical thinking isn't their strong suit.

You could even say that thinking isn't their strong suit.

[AllaN01Bear]

32. wish they could pull this on the rittenhouse brats mom.

[EX500rider]

50. What was she guilty of? nt

[AllaN01Bear]

70. supplying a gun to a minor and takeing him acrross state lines .

i feel she is an accessory to a crime .

[EX500rider]

71. Of which she did neither of those things.

And no law against "taking a minor across state lines" if they are your kid anyway.

[SoCalDavidS]

5. Maybe She Can Write Another Letter To TFG Asking For Help nt

[Traildogbob]

24. Asking trump

To grab her VaJayJay to sooth her hurt fee fees for people hating on her son. And Pardon the son when he is reinstalled. And a medal of freedom. These two are why abortion should be free, sometimes mandated. All the way back to “their” parents.

[usaf-vet]

25. Oh that will work. To TFG they are as diposable as his last Big Mac wrapper.

[Sapient Donkey]

65. That blog post was so horrible, I thought for sure it was a fake.

If it wasn't for the fact the father actually posted that on his facebook page, I would still have my doubts about it.

[70sEraVet]

7. Good. About time we started we started holding parents responsible for making guns accessible.

For years I've been reading the news items of children shooting themselves or others, with guns that were either given to them by their parents, or were not secured properly. And the parents never seem to get prosecuted.

[Tikki]

36. This... please.

Tikki

[oasis]

8. Message sent to every MAGAt NRA whacko. nt

[LiberatedUSA]

10. This resulting in a conviction...

…would be as earth-shattering in ripple effect as Rittenhouse’s verdict.

[liberalla]

15. Agreed... and that message really needs to be sent!

People need to think of the earth-shattering consequences, and be discouraged from attempting anything similar.

[inthewind21]

27. It's quite possible

It's already been done in Michigan

[bucolic_frolic]

9. Could accountability for something finally be at hand?

[sop]

11. In Michigan "Involuntary Manslaughter (also called criminally negligent manslaughter)

occurs when a person is accidentally killed due to someone else's criminal negligence, or when someone is killed during another crime, where the intent was not to cause bodily injury or death. Unlike a murder charge, involuntary manslaughter means that a person had no intention of killing another, but due to their careless or reckless actions caused the death of a human being."

If these parents neglected to keep a gun from their son after being warned he was threatening others, this would be the appropriate charge.

[maxsolomon]

37. Otherwise known as Manslaughter 2.

They were criminally negligent in allowing access to the weapon.

[James48]

13. Elements of the crime

Of involuntary manslaughter in Michigan are:

Elements of manslaughter:

1. That the defendant caused the death of the deceased victim, that the deceased individual died as a result of the defendant's action.

2. That the defendant either:
A. intended to kill the victim; or
B. intended to do great bodily harm to the victim, or
created a situation where the risk of great bodily harm OR death was very high, knowing that as a result of the defendant's actions he or she knew that serious harm or death would likely result.

3. That the defendant caused the death of the victim without justification or lawful excuse.


Involuntary manslaughter occurs when an individual kills another person without intent, or unintentionally. The criminal penalties for involuntary manslaughter are as severe as those for voluntary manslaughter.

[bluestarone]

16. I hope these two lose everything they own, and then some. PLUS

PRISON time to boot!

[maxsolomon]

45. They don't own much.

They will do some time if MI can find a jury that will hold them accountable for their negligence.

No jury will hold them accountable for the purchase of the handgun itself. That is American as apple pie.

[llashram]

17. good

hope they face justice in allowing their f-ed up son to kill innocents. Why didn't the mother of rittenhouse face similar charges or accomplice charges?

[LisaL]

19. Because she didn't buy the gun.

NT

[llashram]

22. rightoe

still an accomplice. Drove him back after his militia style killings. But this is Amerika and certain people get big breaks no matter the crime(s)...

[usaf-vet]

28. She drove him to the location where the killing was possible.

[LisaL]

29. She didn't drive him to the location.

NT

[maxsolomon]

40. I think yours is perhaps the 10,000th post to refute this assertion

It simply amazes me that it persists. I'm starting to feel it is deliberate.

[LisaL]

43. There were false internet rumors initially, and apparently people just

want to believe what they want to believe.

[maxsolomon]

46. Sad but true.

That's basically the explanation for working-class GQP voters.

[UnderThisLaw]

62. So you feel

that some Democrats are using the right wing approach of repeating a lie until people believe it?

It will be interesting to see how much success liberals have with that tactic.

[maxsolomon]

69. Feel is the right word.

I feel that DU is rife with Sock Puppets who come here in bad faith, trying to provoke, trying to drive extreme opinions and sow discord. Some have relatively high post counts.

In the specific case of Wendy Rittenhouse, that was the initial lie that got around the world before the truth got its pants on. So most of these comments may be typical DU kneejerk reactions made out of ignorance. I hope so.

The truth is just as bad: he used his Pandemic Relief check to straw purchase an MSSA and Dominic Black's stepdad stored it for them. Then Stepdad took it out of his gun safe so it would be handy because of the riots and looting. That's how Rittenhouse got it that night.

[UnderThisLaw]

73. I certainly won't argue

with the notion that there are high post count trolls here. I reached that conclusion soon after joining.

[usaf-vet]

49. I stand corrected. Early state papers reported that she did.

[Zen Democrat]

18. I'm beginning to think that these shootings are an evil plot to end public education.

When have there been shootings at private schools?

[Irish_Dem]

33. Yep. At some point, kids will be home schooled or go to private schools.

Public schools will no longer be safe if things keep going in the current direction.

[usaf-vet]

34. It wouldn't take much to convince me of that.

In addition, those that oppose public schools. Bitch, whine, petition, hold recall elections, insist CRT & LGBTQ is being taught in school, schools hand out condoms & birth control devices.

They oppose teaching sex education in health classes. The get state laws passed to bleed state dollars from public schools to fund private schools. Often religious-based schools.

[tenderfoot]

75. There's already people blaming the school for "not doing anything about it!"

Anything I've read about this case, the school seemed to be the one that cared enough to have the parents in for a meeting.

And I agree that there's a campaign against public schools. From the proud boys trolling school board meetings, to school shootings. It's the new "going postal".

[Kimber432]

20. Atempted murder on everyone in the building?

Is there a reason he cannot be charged for that? Just curious. Thanks.

[Jetheels]

60. Yes! I hadn't thought of that. Good idea.

[VGNonly]

26. Michigan DNR

A person must 18 or older to hunt or posess a handgun.

[inthewind21]

31. Incorrect

https://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,4570,7-350-79119_79147_82092-261082--,00.html

[VGNonly]

57. I believe that mentored youth under 18

can use a shotgun, rifle, bow, crossbow or slingshot, but not a handgun.

[Lasher]

66. I think that's right.

And you have to be at least 18 in order to own a pistol in Michigan.

https://city-chelsea.org/Portals/0/Website%20Content/Police/Gun%20Permit%20FAQ.pdf

[LeftInTX]

58. Yikes! This is for kids under 10!!

[Paladin]

30. Outstanding. (nt)

[AZLD4Candidate]

35. Expect the Afluenza defense

[bonniebgood]

38. The same should have happen to Newton CT parents

their names were barely mention if at all. Something happened here the parents probably wanted a copy cat rottenmouse, after all he got of Scott free.

[maxsolomon]

41. Adam Lanza's mother was his 1st victim.

Her name was Nancy Lanza, and it was well known. His father was estranged and did not live with them.

Your other speculation is baseless and absurd. Apply Hanlon's Razor: the Crumbley's are Gunner dumbasses who bought a shiny new handgun and ammo on Black Friday and didn't store it where their homicidal teen could not get it.

[sarisataka]

42. I suspect the parent were not charged

In Newton because she was dead.

[bonniebgood]

39. The same should have happen to Newton CT parents

their names were barely mention if at all. Something happened here the parents probably wanted a copy cat rottenmouse, after all he got of Scott free.

[AngryOldDem]

44. Shooter killed his mother.

She was shot dead possibly before he went to the school. Dad was long out of the picture by then, as well.

The mother, though, was criminal by allowing her extremely dangerous, mentally ill son access to the weapons.

[LisaL]

48. Yep, and you can't arrest and charge the dead.

Father didn't live at the house and didn't buy him guns.

[AngryOldDem]

53. It will be nine years on the 14th.

Time flies. Nothing changes.

[LisaL]

51. I don't think you know what you are talking about.

Adam Lanza killed his mother-she was his first victim. And you can't arrest and charge the dead.
His father and his mother were divorced, his father didn't live in the house, and didn't buy him any weapons, so there was nothing to charge him with.

[EndlessWire]

47. I disagree.

I don't have a weapon. I don't store weapons. I don't practice shooting. And, I don't know what these people did to merit these charges. Maybe they did something. But, unless they loaded the weapon, handed it to him and encouraged him to shoot it up, unless they are mind readers, I don't agree with the charges.

We have in this country a concentrated cadre of people who swear by the 2nd amendment, and actively oppose any changes. I think we should alter access laws, but it's hard to see where these people should be held responsible for this reprehensible act under current law. Did they have the weapon locked up or not? Even if they didn't, it's hard to see how they could be charged with these crimes. Holding them responsible for their almost adult son's actions begs the question of why aren't ALL of us responsible, from those that rally against gun law reform to Kyle's jury who let him off scot free in what to me was clearly a murder...but, a jury of his peers spoke, and off he goes...a tragic event which has now ruined everyone's lives. I'll bet he didn't plan on this. He should have just cut out the middle men and shot his parents directly. That's what he wanted, isn't it?

And, I don't agree with the prosecutor's announcement that they are going to make an example of these defendants. That's enough to let them off. That's not what the law is for. Punish them if you will, but I think this falls under cruel and unusual punishment, which is forbidden. You don't prosecute someone just to make an example of them. Now they will pit parents against son. Typical American justice. Make your deal, even if you don't deserve the punishment because you are not guilty.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

67. I am one of those that favor a right to keep and bear arms.

I feel that there is enough for the parent(s) to be charged. I am all for responsible ownership and part of that is for those not responsible, who by mistake or negligence, being culpable and dealt with appropriately. I prefer that the court system do its work.

Facts:
A 15 year old has unsupervised access to the gun.
...and...one of these 2:
Parents were sufficiently disconnected not to know their son was homicidal.
..or..
Parents know and did nothing substantive.

[Calista241]

68. The dad said he heard about the shooting, and then drove home to see if the weapon was missing.

And reported it to the police that the gun wasn't in the drawer where it was supposed to be. He might not have said it exactly, but he basically reported the firearm as stolen. This was before the police knew who it was, and got warrants for the house.

I won't say if that conduct warrants charges, but they'll probably have a decent case that they bought the weapon, and then laid out some rules for its usage. The kid will probably take the fall for it and say he took the gun w/o permission, since he's going to jail forever anyway.

[LiberatedUSA]

74. 15

If he lives to 75, that is 60 years. Just think of all you have done since 15. Now take that all away and live in cell to yourself for 23 hours a day.

I wonder if that has dawned on him yet. If not, sooner or later the elation will end and it will.

[PatrickforB]

52. Boy, this opened a wound. I knew the mother of one

of the shooters at Columbine. And was good friends in Jr. High with both he father and mother of one of the victims. That tragedy still hurts after more than two decades.

And yet, in spite of the compassion I felt for everyone involved in that horror, I always had the nagging feeling that they should have criminally charged one set of parents, at least, because in subsequent coverage, it came out that they knew their son was having some real serious problems and was actually putting together explosive devices in his room at one point. You cannot tell me they didn't know he was a ticking timebomb. And yet the mom of the other, younger, shooter, whom I knew, always maintained they never knew about their own son's descent into homicidal madness.

Still, they paid and paid. Even with the absence of criminal charges, civil suits dragged over the better part of seven years, and financially crippled both sets of parents, as well as other involved parties. Here's a link to an ABC article about that: https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=93525&page=1. They won't ever really recover, personally or financially, from the murderous acts of their sons.

Based on this link, it looks like prosecutors in Detroit have enough to get convictions on the parents. But even if they are not convicted, they can look forward to being financially stripped for the rest of their lives from civil suits filed by the victims.

Nothing good about this. Another horrible mass killing because we're too foolish to impose gun controls.

[mainer]

54. Mom blamed immigrants' kids for ruining schools

In her unhinged blogpost extolling Trump. What a worthless woman.

[Dan]

59. I read the letter that she address to Donald Trump.

That lady was one scary lady - and the ending of the letter where she says something like ….grab my pussy, was truly one for the books.

[Ray Bruns]

63. Of course she did. It is always someone else's fault with these people.

[vlyons]

56. 1st thing I thought when I heard this story

Why wasn't the gun securely locked in a gun case? And the bullets too. A FB friend reports that the kid wrote that his life was useless and the world was dead. Sorry don't have a source for that. I want to know more about the family dynamic. Clearly there was something very very wrong in that household. That boy has ruined his life, the lives of his family, and the lives of his victims' families. If the parents are taken into custody, their other kids will probably be taken away.

[Sapient Donkey]

64. Should be interesting to see how this plays out

I am curious to see all the information they found that makes them feel confident in bringing these charges. That text mentioned in the article makes the mother look pretty bad. I can only imagine what they have on the parents.

[ck4829]

76. K&R