US says war appears imminent after shelling on Ukraine front line

[EarthFirst]

Source: Reuters

MOSCOW/KYIV, Feb 17 (Reuters) - U.S. President Joe Biden said on Thursday there was now every indication Russia was planning to invade into Ukraine, including signs Moscow was carrying out a false flag operation to justify it, after Ukrainian forces and pro-Moscow rebels traded fire.

Moscow, for its part, ejected the number two official from the U.S. embassy and released a strongly worded letter to the United States accusing Washington of ignoring its security demands.

Biden's remarks came shortly after Ukraine and pro-Russian separatists exchanged fire across a frontline that divides them, in what Western officials described as a possible pretext created by Moscow to invade.

"We have reason to believe they are engaged in a false flag operation to have an excuse to go in. Every indication we have is they’re prepared to go into Ukraine and attack Ukraine," Biden told reporters as he departed the White House.


Read more: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/shelling-breaks-out-east-ukraine-west-moscow-dispute-troop-moves-2022-02-17/

[CanonRay]

1. I hoped there'd never be a major land war in Europe in my lifetime.

I'm trying to stay hopeful.

[PatSeg]

4. Same here

[IronLionZion]

11. The Bosnian war probably was in your lifetime

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_War

People couldn't believe it then either. Even people who lived there were like "But we are European! How can this happen?".

[Wednesdays]

27. I know we can't dismiss

the Bosnian war as "just a small conflict," I'm sure that's no comfort to its victims.

However, that war was limited to the region, in a quasi-civil war. This is a whole 'nother level of a crisis...it could easily devolve into World War III.

[Alpeduez21]

31. and it gave a bunch of racist their own country

people even cheer for them at the olympics. Disgusting.

[IronLionZion]

34. I wish American racists would move there

they might feel more comfortable with less diversity.

[Tommymac]

67. I think there is little chance right now of this developing into WW3

I don't see it. The EU doesn't want that. NATO doesn't want that. The US doesn't want that.

And most of all Putin doesn't want that.

There will be no NATO/US boots on the ground in the Ukraine.

There will be hellacious economic and other sanctions by the EU and USA that will cripple the Russian people's way of life (worse then Putin's disastrous internal policies are doing now).

There may even be a 'hidden' cyberwar that occurs between all the powers.

But no nuclear or other WMD exchange. Not right now. Not even close.

Rest easy, time for escalation will be months, not days or weeks, if at all.

[Buckeyeblue]

75. How do we know Putin doesn't want it?

I agree with you that no one else wants it. Not so sure what Putin wants.

[Tommymac]

78. Because he will lose a nuclear exchange. Big Time. and he knows that very well.

He wants power and money - Ukraine is a gambit to draw the Russian peoples' attention away from his grifting ways, and the poor economy, and the lack of goods, and and and just about everything an authoritarian dictator wants to draw attention away from.

He is not looking to conquer the world...only look good in the eyes of his minions.

This is about greed - not national pride.

[Buckeyeblue]

84. Everyone losses in a nuclear exchange

Just because war breaks out doesn't mean it's going nuclear. I think he might just push things to see what happens. Just like you stated, Putin doesn't care if his people suffer. He can attempt to rally them in the name of mother Russia.

But if he can cause harm to Europe and the US, so much the better.

I hope I'm wrong.

[Tommymac]

87. That statement is debatable. There are many out there who believe a nuke war is 'winnable'.

If you want to read some decent fiction about this possibility, read the last 4 or 5 books in the Dan Lenson series by David Poyer.

(The whole series is 21 books, some of the earlier ones are actually taught at Annapolis. Poyer has some great insights into Naval life and strategy, some of the books are a bit over the top. The last 5 or so detail what could happen in a full scale war with China including nuclear exchanges, the read is good and he explores the nuclear option well in all it's horror.)

I agree the world would be a horribly painful place full of suffering after such an exchange, and most all modern leaders heed the consequences, including the bully/coward Putin; hence the success of the MAD strategy so far. However there are still those political and military theorists who speculate there could be a 'winner'. And their reasoning is not too suspect, though grim reading - and their definition of 'winning' is far from what it has meant in the past.

[Buckeyeblue]

90. I will check out those books. Thanks for the suggestion.

I hope your right that Putin isn't looking for a serious show down.

[Tommymac]

91. Welcome. Putin is dealing from a position of weakness, no doubt.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/100216367157#post5

(And remember those books are fiction - they have many weak points but overall a good read if you like your fiction to be about current events. I prefer his early work about life on a Cold War destroyer and in the Gulf, but imho Poyer is a competent writer whose work entertains and informs. The later ones are sometimes, not all, a bit sensationalistic and over the top, but still explore interesting scenarios. The last two explore the anti-vax movement in extremis too. Beware the NSFW or NSFE (Not safe for Evangelicals) parts.)

[Buckeyeblue]

100. For sure. What's equally interesting is how Putin stays in power

Russia is a disaster. Most of the country is dirt poor. And yet he has what appears to be an iron-clad grip on the place. Those who challenge him seem to go about it in such bold ways that they become easy targets. It seems as if a well coordinated underground movement could really destabilize his control.

[BlueWavePsych]

2. Yikes!

[PatSeg]

5. That looks pretty accurate

and sadly not surprising.

[RKP5637]

6. Yep, that's about it. Humanity loves to beat on each other, so pathetic. n/t

[PatSeg]

10. Yes, there is something seriously wrong

with our species.

[RKP5637]

22. It's very bizarre. It must be an ingrained hard-wired brain function for survival. One tiny place in

a vast universe, and many spend their lives trying to kill off others, maim them and/or make their lives as miserable as possible. And cooperation for a better life for all seems a rare find.

[MarcA]

37. +1000 n/t

[HUAJIAO]

50. Unconscious, sleeping human beings.

[PatSeg]

62. And it has happened over and over again

in most cultures throughout history. I can possibly understand fighting or even killing for survival, but war is often violence for the sake of violence, a show of strength and power meant to intimidate with very little reward. It seems that those in positions of power are usually the only ones to reap any rewards.

In the end, what is achieved by killing another human being unless it is in self-defense? Sounds like bloodlust and a disregard for life.

[RKP5637]

79. That, and also, there is big money to be made by some when waging war. It's so sad and pathetic.

[PatSeg]

80. Oh yes

I totally forgot war profiteering. Yes, war is very lucrative for business people with no real soul. I just cannot imagine what goes on in their minds.

[Evolve Dammit]

65. That's for damn sure.

[PatSeg]

66. And your names is very appropriate

"Evolve Dammit"!

[Evolve Dammit]

93. Progress is slower than I ever imagined.

[PatSeg]

94. Yes, it really is

I honestly thought we would have evolved more by now. It is funny as we've really progressed in some areas, while falling back considerably in others. I think the latter might be the reluctance of a lot of people to move forward as they fearfully cling to the familiar. I'm sure it has happened similarly throughout history. Not everyone goes willingly into the future, but the resistant ones are often forgotten by historians.

[Evolve Dammit]

95. I thought we had it nailed in the early 70's. Race relations, end of useless war, people coming

together, environmental protection, wages doing well (especially union), healthcare costs "reasonable" and college affordable (free in CA).
WTF happened? Oh the "Raygun Revolution." Downhill since IMHO. Government is the problems, unions are bad and inherent racism.
Corporate takeover of smaller businesses and vulture capitalism. Lower and middle classes are little more than slaves for our family obligations at this point. MUCH harder on low-income than anyone. Richest country on the planet. Yeah, for about 5% who have no worries.

[PatSeg]

97. I agree

In the seventies, it felt like we'd made quantum leaps in so many areas. It seemed we had set something in motion that was truly transformational. Then came the 1980s and over the years, the progress has been dismantled bit by bit. The initial enthusiasm faded away as a new generation did not take the baton as it was passed.

[Evolve Dammit]

98. And many sold out their ideals for money and forgot their original intent.

[PatSeg]

99. Yes

Some of the most outspoken became quite conservative, as if the whole movement was just a youthful fad.

[Alpeduez21]

26. No. Humanity does not love to beat on each other.

This means you want to beat on me and I on you. What's true is SOME humans want to beat on each other and the rest of us wring our hands going 'oh dear, what can be done.' Humanity loves to act like there is nothing to prevent us from being horrible to each other. We have philosophical discussion about ethics and historical documentaries about atrocities but we just console ourselves by saying nothing could be done. Well, a hell of lot can be done but it's brutal, harsh and difficult.

Biden should have thousands of troops in Ukraine participating in military exercises with our allies RIGHT FUCKING NOW! It's too late. I'm afraid it's going to be ugly and brutal for those about to be occupied. The rest of NATO will wag a finger and say tsk,tsk but will do nothing of consequence.

In the international scene bullies need to be defeated not sanctioned. People are going to die. It's sad but war is a reality as long as people believe reason will prevent authoritarians from acting in authoritarian ways.

I don't want to beat on other people. However, I'm willing to defend against warmongers. Hard choices are never made by politicians (Biden). They are forced upon them. I say we should be landing supplies, gear and troops in Kiev two weeks ago. Biden should've have made it very clear that we are there with our allies on whatever pretext he chooses but ANYTHING that might happen to us will be considered an act of war and will be treated as such. Yeah, it's unpopular but peace requires strength not the 'appearance' of strength.

Ukraine is lost unless it's a tougher opponent than Putin thinks it is. There are reasons he chose Ukraine as expansion than other parts of Europe. Bullies don't pick on the strongest.

[RKP5637]

29. Well said!!! n/t

[James48]

58. Here is the problem with your scenario.

We can’t send thousands of troops into Ukraine.

Ukraine is NOT currently a NATO member country, so the only thing that can protect them is NOT NATO, but rather the United Nations. And the Russians will never again allow the UN Security Council to authorize a military response. (See lessons learned Korea , 1950).

Unfortunately, Ukraine is screwed. But Russia will be screwed too, with a full blown war they have to wage.

[Metaphorical]

71. American boots on the ground? No.

American drones in the air, loaned to the Ukranians? Yup.

Biden knows what he's doing. He was a key part of the Senate Foreign Armed Services committee for several years. So long as it's Ukrainians and pro-Russian assets within Ukraine trading potshots, the US really can't move against Russia. That changes if the Russians cross the border.

[shrike3]

81. I'm afraid they do.

And for the slimmest of reasons at times. Island peoples in Indonesia fought over grudges, over food. They built watchtowers on rivers and forts out of thorn bushes. You yourself might not want to beat on other people, but you are not all of humanity, sad to say.

[lookyhereyou]

89. man's progenitor was a feroshus creature

we have been unsuccessfully trying to tame ourselves ever since

[shrike3]

92. Well, we do share almost of our DNA with the chimpanzee

Very violent itself.

[dalton99a]

15. +1

[calimary]

46. No kidding "Yikes!"!

Lordy, Lordy do I love political cartoons. They’re visual metaphors - done artfully.

[LymphocyteLover]

56. Oh wow... *cringe*

[ryan0024]

96. How badly does Putin really want Ukraine?

I hope Putin realizes that Ukraine is not worth all the trouble.

[gopiscrap]

101. welcome to DU

[Botany]

3. Thank Dog that Joe Biden is POTUS now

People forget that Joe Biden has many many years of experience in foreign policy. He was on and
at times chaired the US Senate's Foreign Relations Committee and that was one of his specialties
as V.P. for President Obama. Now they doesn't mean that Russia will not invade the Ukraine or things
will not "go bad" over there but this isn't Joe B's 1st rodeo. If Russia invades the Ukraine their multi
billion dollar gas pipeline to Germany will be over and Putin needs that money.

BTW Joe Biden is the best President I have ever seen.

[PatSeg]

9. Biden certainly is the best person to be President

under these circumstances.

Once again, I agree with you about Biden being the best President I've seen in my lifetime.

[calimary]

47. Agreed wholeheartedly!

As was said farther upthread, this isn’t his “first rodeo.”

[PatSeg]

64. No wonder Trump didn't want to run against him

He knew what kind of an opponent Joe would be.

[WheelWalker]

12. Damn straight !

[c-rational]

16. +1

[Texaswitchy]

88. Yes

His experience is needed now.

[jaxexpat]

7. How threatening is this, anyway?

Last edited Thu Feb 17, 2022, 04:36 PM - Edit history (1)

I mean, aside from the Republican party, the Russians have no allies.

Okay, I get it. Everybody doesn't keep their sarcasm detectors set to auto.

already.

[jimfields33]

8. China I believe is a partner with Russia.

[Metaphorical]

72. China will do what's convenient for China

About all that Putin has secured from China is a non-aggression treaty. That will be worthless of things turn sour for Putin.

[oldsoftie]

14. Putin doesn't need allies. he wants the old USSR back. Its up to us to stop him.

Along with the EU
He's in his own mind.
The only thing he understands is losses

[melm00se]

33. I would say that

he wishes for Imperial Russia back with him as Tsar.

[luvtheGWN]

53. He is reported to be extremely, EXTREMELY, wealthy,

having taken tidy sums of rubles from companies that were privatized after the fall of the Soviet Union. He may even have acquired more wealth than the Russian royal family ever possessed. So yes, he very much wants to be thought of as a Tsar. And he won't back down -- this is his last hurrah and he's determined to be successful. Ukraine possesses much more than just arable land.

[sarisataka]

30. If a Russian-Ukrainian war were to spill into NATO

It could spread like WW1 but with better weapons

[oldsoftie]

61. And russia isn't as formidable on a large scale.

Their elite forces are very well trained. But the bulk of their military is made up of conscripts; many not very well trained. Otherwise known as cannon fodder. their supply chain would be VERY vulnerable & I doubt they could count on china. China may very well look at a EU-scale war as their opportunity to take back parts of Russia that used to be Chinese. They could also try Taiwan too.
Their equipment isn't as good as what Western countries have. And the Russian people aren't on board with going to war either

[former9thward]

51. No allies?

China and to a great extent India are allies. Not to mention countries in Africa, Asia and S. America.

[LymphocyteLover]

59. it's very bad for freaking Ukraine-- thousands would die in an invasion

a modern country wrecked...

sanctions on Russia would destabilize Europe as well

[IronLionZion]

68. Cuba, Syria, Belarus, and a few other old Soviet countries

Putin feels a bit paranoid and isolated and doesn't have much to lose.

[oldsoftie]

13. The fantasy of "denuclearization". Russia was never to be trusted.

Ukraine should have kept THEIR nukes. Instead they were given assurances of security. So far that has failed; Crimea, Eastern Ukraine.

Ukraine cannot stop Russia. But, as sad as it sounds, we can only hope that they can inflict major casualties on the attacking forces. If there's any way they could take out a ship or two, along with many tanks, it would make quite an impact.

[hunter]

17. We live in a world of... you know... morons

[jaxexpat]

83. THIS! I've noticed as well.

Could be that the planetary dominion by humans is a short-term event. What with most of them frightened into psychosis of their own deaths and so many comforted by psychically holding the suffering of death closer than is healthy, one could say they're a self-fulfilling plague prophesy. A punch line in the geological record.

[Roc2020]

18. Russia has legit concerns about

NATO on its doorsteps. But NATO is also right not to cave to demands. WW111 world??? REALLY???? Just wow.

[maxsolomon]

21. Please, share what is legitimate about their concerns.

Since NATO is already in the Baltic Republics, since 2004, they've been on their doorstep.

[Roc2020]

23. True. Putin is evil and I don't feel bad for Russia

however NATO has military hardware in Poland and I'm sure in other NATO countries close to Russia that can shoot down Russian deployed Nukes. The US said they were to shoot down Iranians missiles but that's dubious.

[sarisataka]

35. Russia needs to be concerned

NATO might be able to prevent a nuclear war? Seems legit. So they HAVE to start a war and invade Ukraine- for peace

[Ghost Dog]

69. It causes Russia to fear

that the US/NATO might think this gives them a first nuclear strike window of opportunity.

[sarisataka]

74. Except intercepting ICBMs doesn't work that way

Tail chasing is futile. Anti missile systems in Europe may give them some protection but not the US.

That begs the question- is there a reason Putin doesn't want Europe to have a defense against nuclear weapons?

[Ghost Dog]

82. The only dfense against nuclear weapons

is MAD.

[Harker]

36. If Russia seizes and holds Ukraine, their borders with NATO

grow substantially.

[marie999]

39. Russia would use Ukraine as a buffer country.

This is why Ukraine can never join NATO.

[Harker]

42. A bigger doorstep, yes...

but the whole idea of not being abutted to NATO is nullified, paradoxically.

[marie999]

45. No, it gives Russia a better chance of protecting itself from NATO.

[AllyCat]

24. What are their legitimate concerns?

[Alpeduez21]

28. What legitimate concerns? n/t

[Roc2020]

32. ...So Military hardware that can

shoot down Russian Nukes...then the 'mutual assured destruction' argument goes very much against Russia if NATO can shoot down their nukes in a war. Russia should be concerned.

[Ghost Dog]

70. Exactly. Nt

[Hortensis]

76. The way Germany had "legitimate concerns" in Poland. nt

[NoMoreRepugs]

19. What is the Turkish position on all of this?

[haele]

40. Turkey doesn't trust Russia. They sent Ukraine militarized drones.

Turkey views the Black Sea as theirs, and Russia is making moves to shore up most of the Black Sea for themselves.
Turkey and the old Soviet Union may not have had a hot war, as it were, but they definitely weren't allies - one of the reasons they allowed -and still allow - a US/NATO airbase on their soil.

Haele

[BumRushDaShow]

52. And Turkey has been trying to gain entry into the EU

for like forever (and continue having problems getting it done - particularly with Erdogan in there, which is no surprise)!

[Sapient Donkey]

55. I believe Turkey providing Ukraine with Turkish drones

There was talk about setting up a factory in Ukraine to build the drones. The Russian nationalists and Russophiles had a field day talking how Russia needs to blow it up with some cruise missiles, and how this proves that Russia must defend itself from an aggressive Ukraine.

[SunSeeker]

20. This is so sad and infuriating. Fuck Putin.

[SergeStorms]

25. The United Nations should expel Russia.

Putin must be made to pay a heavy, heavy price for his murderous incursion into the Ukraine.

Better minds than mine should gather together from all NATO countries and find the most punitive methods to hurt Russia.

Unfortunately the people of Russia are going to pay a high price for Putin's blood lust, but maybe it will foment another Russian revolution to rid themselves, and the world, of this greedy, blood thirsty maniac.

Of course this madman would be Donald Trump's best buddy.

[OnlinePoker]

38. The UN did nothing but condemn Russia after the Crimea annexation

111 of the 193 members at the time either abstained or didn't vote at all. I highly doubt there would be any difference to a full scale invasion now.

[SergeStorms]

44. You're most probably correct.

But I never give up hope that the world will somehow develop a sense of sanity, and work together to stop this type of aggression.

Maybe it won't be the UN, but someone has to make Putin pay a dear price for this.

[marie999]

48. If all countries that invaded other countries were expelled from the UN that would include the US.

[Zorro]

41. Putin feels humiliated by the dissolution of the USSR

and aims to recapture the previous stature and international respect held by that former nation.

Shades of the Third Reich and the mindset of its former leader. With nukes.

And Biden has our own Fifth Column to deal with here.

[marie999]

43. If Russia and Belarus are going to invade Ukraine,

I would be very surprised if they did it before Russia had tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus and Kaliningrad.

[cutroot]

49. If Ukraine is part of the EU, isn't Russia attacking the EU?

The economic part of the Ukraine–European Union Association Agreement was signed on 27 June 2014 by the new president, Petro Poroshenko. On 1 January 2016, Ukraine joined the DCFTA with the EU.

[LymphocyteLover]

60. The EU is an economic alliance, not a military one... but I think Europe is clearly against

Russia taking over Ukraine in general.

[Ghost Dog]

86. It is not part of the EU. NT

[wryter2000]

54. Of course we ignore their demands

The only other alternative is to laugh at them.

[LymphocyteLover]

57. exchanging fire seems ... bad

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

63. Russia, Belarus to end drills as planned - officials

MOSCOW (Reuters) - Russia and Belarus will end their joint military drills on Feb. 20 as previously planned, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said on Thursday, addressing Western concerns that Russian troops may stay in Belarus for a longer time.

Separately, the RIA news agency quoted Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov as saying that the matter of extending Russian troops' stay in Belarus was not on the agenda.

The drills in Belarus have added to Western fears of a possible Russian invasion of neighbouring Ukraine. Moscow has denied planning such an attack.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russia-belarus-to-end-drills-as-planned-officials/ar-AATYYtK

Yean and the check's in the mail.

[AntiFascist]

77. It looks like there is a big meeting about this tomorrow...

https://www.rferl.org/a/putin-lukashenka-joint-exercises/31708101.html

Lukashenka, Putin To Meet Amid Joint Belarus-Russia Military Exercises

Belarus's authoritarian leader, Alyaksandr Lukashenka, says he will meet with Russian President Vladimir Putin on February 18 to discuss "further activities" regarding joint military forces as the two countries hold military exercises together.

Speaking during a visit to the Asipovitski military test field on February 17 as joint exercises were taking place, Lukashenka did not say whether the Russian troops will start leaving his country after the maneuvers, but emphasized that "there is no need to create Russian military bases in Belarus."

"Things will be decided tomorrow," Lukashenka said, referring to the meeting with Putin.

[Bayard]

73. "It is in your nature to destroy yourselves"

One way or another, war or climate, humans insist on self-annihilation.

Putin's ego is on the line here. He's like TFG, only much more intelligent and ruthless. I don't understand why he is risking his country's entire economy, unless because he's a trillionaire with his finger in many pies, and he thinks it won't affect him personally. But if the Russian people are starving, will they finally rise up against him? Will his own military? Maybe he's depending on grabbing Ukraine's resources.

I don't see how we can stay out of this militarily if Russia starts committing atrocities in Ukraine.

[Stuart G]

85. Perhaps, just ..."perhaps" this will not be ..."War" Maybe something else?