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ificandream

(9,335 posts)
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 04:22 PM Apr 2022

Ohio doctor accused of overprescribing fentanyl to the dying found not guilty of murder

Source: CNN/Eric Levenson, Jean Casarez, Lauren del Valle

The Ohio doctor accused of overprescribing fentanyl to his critically ill patients and hastening their deaths was found not guilty of 14 counts of murder on Wednesday.

William Husel and his attorney embraced at the defense table after the 14th and final not guilty verdict was read in court. He was subsequently discharged from the courtroom.

The decision comes just over a week after jurors began deliberating and days after they said they were at an impasse and could not reach a unanimous verdict, leading Franklin County Judge Michael Holbrook to instruct them to continue their deliberations.

Read more: https://www.cnn.com/2022/04/20/us/william-husel-ohio-doctor-murder-trial/index.html?utm_term=1650465396875f032f8b7a5b5&utm_source=cnn_Breaking+News&utm_medium=email&bt_ee=5ybnOsWYzLtuEeHAZ5ew7qGhtYhw%2BYI48rPwkpq5ajDSSbzpHrQUqRSjXNKICb6g&bt_ts=1650465396878

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Ohio doctor accused of overprescribing fentanyl to the dying found not guilty of murder (Original Post) ificandream Apr 2022 OP
Good. n/t Mr.Bill Apr 2022 #1
Sorry. Didn't mean to post here. Agree, it's good. Hoyt Apr 2022 #4
Darn it. I'm screwing everything up. Apologies again. Hoyt Apr 2022 #5
If I am dying and in severe pain, bring on the pain meds so I do not suffer. Irish_Dem Apr 2022 #2
It's a little known secret that Hospice Nurses Mr.Bill Apr 2022 #7
Yes I know. Irish_Dem Apr 2022 #9
Callous medical providers indifferently letting patients die in agony sounds like an exaggeration. Aristus Apr 2022 #24
I have seen it first hand on a number of occasions. Irish_Dem Apr 2022 #25
I'm not sure this is that much of an exaggeration. My wife has been in constant agonizing PatrickforB Apr 2022 #34
Doctors are afraid. Elessar Zappa Apr 2022 #57
It's a kindness Joinfortmill Apr 2022 #21
When my first wife went on hospice home care, the nurse on the squad Harker Apr 2022 #23
As did I. shrike3 Apr 2022 #28
Patient he gave these drugs to weren't asking for it. LisaL Apr 2022 #12
Not everyone in that situation is of sound enough mind Mr.Bill Apr 2022 #22
I don't think they had advanced directions to overload them with fentanyl either. LisaL Apr 2022 #42
please ! I agree lookyhereyou Apr 2022 #15
Good. My mom, her sisters and her mother all had Alzheimer's. Phoenix61 Apr 2022 #3
Excellent. Folks like Hampton and Jack Kevorkian are heroes. Hoyt Apr 2022 #6
This case was bullcrap. JohnnyRingo Apr 2022 #8
Fentanyl can and does kill completely healthy people. LisaL Apr 2022 #11
That is always relative. momta Apr 2022 #18
I know all about Fentanyl JohnnyRingo Apr 2022 #29
#1 riversedge Apr 2022 #30
Really? So if a non-terminal patient showed up to see the doctor, LisaL Apr 2022 #35
I'll trust the jury JohnnyRingo Apr 2022 #38
I guess no one decided you were suffering too much and loaded you up with LisaL Apr 2022 #39
They decided lung cancer was definitely going to kill me. JohnnyRingo Apr 2022 #48
What they presumably didn't give you are doses of fentanyl large enough to kill. LisaL Apr 2022 #51
What the hell is the difference between chemo drugs and... JohnnyRingo Apr 2022 #54
These people were not in hospice. LisaL Apr 2022 #55
Glad you are back. tavernier Apr 2022 #58
Thanx. There's no such thing as bad days. JohnnyRingo Apr 2022 #63
I'm confused on why you are trying to equate people Karma13612 Apr 2022 #61
I am not trying to equate Husel's patients with people showing up at doctor's officers. LisaL Apr 2022 #62
Excellent Skittles Apr 2022 #10
He is a former doctor. LisaL Apr 2022 #13
This is welcome news Ruby the Liberal Apr 2022 #14
Unbelievable Botellos Apr 2022 #16
You are opposed to the verdict? niyad Apr 2022 #31
I would have voted not guilty. People with terminal illnesses should have thr RIGHT to die AZLD4Candidate Apr 2022 #17
+1 n/t area51 Apr 2022 #26
I would have voted guilty. LisaL Apr 2022 #41
My mom died of cancer in 1979. momta Apr 2022 #19
+1 dalton99a Apr 2022 #32
This. I am so sorry for what your mom and the rest of you had to endure. Hekate Apr 2022 #33
Is this what it seems? manicdem Apr 2022 #20
Patients didn't ask him for medically assisted suicide. LisaL Apr 2022 #27
I agree Sick_n_Tired Apr 2022 #37
My questions as well. Owl Apr 2022 #53
Great news! Karma13612 Apr 2022 #36
These patients didn't tell the doctor they wanted to die. LisaL Apr 2022 #40
They didn't have to, or they couldn't. Hela Apr 2022 #43
So if a patient can't tell a doctor what he or she would want, should LisaL Apr 2022 #44
Your argument is specious. Hela Apr 2022 #45
I don't know where you got an idea that these patients were all terminal. LisaL Apr 2022 #46
And by the way, 2000 micrograms is LisaL Apr 2022 #47
Dosing of opiates is not about health but about prior opiate tolerance. moriah Apr 2022 #49
I sincerely doubt he checked these patients for their LisaL Apr 2022 #52
It's standard medical practice to... moriah Apr 2022 #56
I don't think this guy was all that concerned with LisaL Apr 2022 #59
Pain management in this country is such a touchstone with me slightlv Apr 2022 #50
This is little solace but Karma13612 Apr 2022 #60
He did this without the patients knowledge? Emile Apr 2022 #64
Sure did. LisaL Apr 2022 #65

Irish_Dem

(46,500 posts)
2. If I am dying and in severe pain, bring on the pain meds so I do not suffer.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 04:44 PM
Apr 2022

I have seen some dying patients screaming in pain and the medical staff won't give them adequate pain management due to fear of hastening their death.

Please hasten my death in these circumstances.

Mr.Bill

(24,238 posts)
7. It's a little known secret that Hospice Nurses
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 04:56 PM
Apr 2022

have been helping people in this fashion for years. I won't go into detail, but I have relatives who were Hospice Nurses.

Irish_Dem

(46,500 posts)
9. Yes I know.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 05:01 PM
Apr 2022

The patients I saw were on general medical floors. Not hospice.

I know Hospice nurses and they do not let their dying patients scream for hours in pain. Totally against their philosophy of care.

Aristus

(66,286 posts)
24. Callous medical providers indifferently letting patients die in agony sounds like an exaggeration.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 08:36 PM
Apr 2022

The 'bible' of clinical opiate treatment, Responsible Opioid Prescribing, clearly states that if a patient is dying, under 'Do Not Resuscitate' orders, and in 'comfort measures only' status, the upper limit of dosing is basically however much keeps the patient comfortable, regardless of standard of care.

Irish_Dem

(46,500 posts)
25. I have seen it first hand on a number of occasions.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 08:44 PM
Apr 2022

The docs are afraid of legal liability and losing their licenses.

And some docs say they don't want the patient to get "addicted."

All of it is just plain wrong.

PatrickforB

(14,558 posts)
34. I'm not sure this is that much of an exaggeration. My wife has been in constant agonizing
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:33 AM
Apr 2022

pain for a couple years now and no one at our HMO really gives a shit. They don't. Of course, they are FAR too concerned with cutting costs to actually do what a patient really needs, or test until they find out what that patient needs.

Nope. Here in 'Murika, we operate a monetized healthcare system where profits are held above people every single time.

Every single time.

See, the role of government can easily be identified by every one of our congress critters if they really wanted to do the right thing. Government is a service. The government should step in whenever the profit motive is in direct conflict with the interests of those being served.

Consider your 911 dispatcher. If you have a fire in your kitchen you cannot put out, and call 911, what if the dispatcher wanted to take payment over the phone with a credit card prior to sending the fire trucks. Or what if an intruder has broken into your house and you've locked yourself in the bathroom, and the dispatcher tries to collect a fee before sending the police.

Why, that is ridiculous! Isn't it?

So why do we allow the same thing to happen to us with healthcare? Dental care? Congress didn't bat a collective eyelash when they passed the bloated $770 billion WAR bill this year, and we squandered over $4 trillion on the forever wars. And the 2017 tax cut for billionaires and corporations? If you look at the federal budgets year over, you will see that right now individual taxpayers pay in $0.86 out of every dollar the US government collects in income tax while corporations only pay in $0.07 (6.8%).

I mean, that is unsustainable. Go back to 1970 and that ratio was corporations ~35% : individuals ~45%. Seriously.

Look, if Congress was actually operating unfettered by MASSIVE corporate donations from special interest groups, and was instead allowed to do the right thing in governing this country, we would have had Medicare for all Americans a long time ago, it would cover all medical costs instead of having large 'donut' holes, and you wouldn't have to hire a consultant and read a bunch of books to figure out how to sign up and get the best long term benefit. You'd just go in, be seen, be treated, and hopefully get well - all without worrying about being wheeled in your gurney through accounting to figure out how you will 'handle' your copay, coinsurance, self-pay or whatever other bullshit term they use.

Seriously, we squander all that money on shit that doesn't do us and our families a BIT of good. Where is our healthcare? Where is our dental care? Where is the kind of medical service that works in the patient's best interest instead of the best interests of shareholders? Where is debt-free healthcare? Where are there no healthcare bankrupcies?

Hint: EVERYWHERE ELSE BUT HERE.

As long as shareholder profit is king, most nurses and doctors will heroically 'tolerate' pain on the part of their patients in order to cut costs and maximize revenue.

Every time I think of our fucked up healthcare system I want to hurl.

Elessar Zappa

(13,909 posts)
57. Doctors are afraid.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:45 PM
Apr 2022

My dad’s opiate was discontinued due to the doctor being afraid to prescribe pain meds. Now my dad is in agony 24/7 and can’t get any relief. He has debilitating osteo-arthritis and has tried every alternative to opiates. None of it touches his pain. The war on opiates is ridiculous.

Harker

(13,976 posts)
23. When my first wife went on hospice home care, the nurse on the squad
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 07:56 PM
Apr 2022

made it very clear, with an accompanying piercing look, what would constitute a lethal dose of painkiller.

Mr.Bill

(24,238 posts)
22. Not everyone in that situation is of sound enough mind
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 07:16 PM
Apr 2022

to ask for anything. That's why we have advance directives.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
42. I don't think they had advanced directions to overload them with fentanyl either.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:01 PM
Apr 2022

Hospital already paid millions to the families.

lookyhereyou

(140 posts)
15. please ! I agree
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 05:53 PM
Apr 2022

what is the point of agony , pain on pain , vegetative state.

LET ME GO WHEN i SAY GO .

We can decide for our pets when they have had enough.

Phoenix61

(16,993 posts)
3. Good. My mom, her sisters and her mother all had Alzheimer's.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 04:49 PM
Apr 2022

I wouldn’t wish it on anyone and hope someone would be kind and help me on my way if I end up with it.

JohnnyRingo

(18,618 posts)
8. This case was bullcrap.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 04:58 PM
Apr 2022

People hear the buzzword Fentanyl and assume that's what killed the patient. In this case it appears to have been administered to give comfort to the dying.

According to the defense:

"Baez argued prosecutors had not proven beyond a reasonable doubt that the doses actually hastened the patients’ deaths or that Husel purposely intended to kill the patients."

Somewhere there's a knee jerk republican behind this who probably complained that the patient could become addicted.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
11. Fentanyl can and does kill completely healthy people.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 05:08 PM
Apr 2022

One lady got a dose described as "enough to kill an elephant."

momta

(4,078 posts)
18. That is always relative.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 06:39 PM
Apr 2022

Prescribing Fentanyl or any opioid is always going to depend on the patient's tolerance, which, in chronically ill people can be quite high.

JohnnyRingo

(18,618 posts)
29. I know all about Fentanyl
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 10:47 PM
Apr 2022

We have weekly overdoses here too, but I'll go along with the jury that the doctor did not overdose anyone. Fentanyl is an effective medicine, not just an illegal drug.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
35. Really? So if a non-terminal patient showed up to see the doctor,
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 06:38 AM
Apr 2022

and the doctor gave the kind of dose these people got, you'd still think doctor didn't overdose anyone? He was prescribing high enough doses of fentanyl that likely would have killed at least some healthy people, especially in combination with other drugs.

JohnnyRingo

(18,618 posts)
38. I'll trust the jury
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 11:35 AM
Apr 2022

Unlike you and me they heard all the facts.

Cancer was trying to kill me a couple years ago. I almost died from the chemo, but in the end, when I finally emerged from the ICU, the cancer was gone. So medical science won and no one was arrested.

You can bet there are people on the street doing double that "lethal dose" because they have a resistance built up.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
39. I guess no one decided you were suffering too much and loaded you up with
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:48 PM
Apr 2022

fentanyl.
But if somebody had done so, sounds like that would have been just fine with you?

JohnnyRingo

(18,618 posts)
48. They decided lung cancer was definitely going to kill me.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 02:42 PM
Apr 2022

They loaded me up with chemo drugs and cost me both kidneys.

Saved my life, for what it's worth now, but I was in a coma for a week and spent months in ICU. They had to teach me to walk again, but the cancer was adios. I guess I win this time, but who should be arrested if I didn't?

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
51. What they presumably didn't give you are doses of fentanyl large enough to kill.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 05:39 PM
Apr 2022

If somebody administered a potentially lethal dose of fentanyl to you when you were in a coma, would that be o'key with you?
Doses he administered would have been likely enough to kill even some completely healthy people.

JohnnyRingo

(18,618 posts)
54. What the hell is the difference between chemo drugs and...
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 06:01 PM
Apr 2022

...Fentanyl? Both have legitimate medical uses and both can kill. I got a near lethal dose of chemo drugs that worked. As time went on my body built a resistance until at the end when I was getting doses that would kill a healthy person, but it poisoned the cancer first.

People hear the word Fentanyl and assume illegal drugs. It's not. People in Hospice care get it all the time to ease the suffering, but they build a resistance until they need doses that would kill a healthy person.

Do you know why so much heroin is produced? The vast majority of it goes legally to pain medication. Some spills out onto the streets for people who don't know what they're doing.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
55. These people were not in hospice.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 06:28 PM
Apr 2022

He worked in ICU. They were ICU patients.
It's a good bet these patients weren't building up a resistance to fentanyl in there.

tavernier

(12,369 posts)
58. Glad you are back.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:47 PM
Apr 2022

We were keeping tabs on you through your friend. You went through hell… here’s hoping that you have only good days coming.

Karma13612

(4,541 posts)
61. I'm confused on why you are trying to equate people
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:19 PM
Apr 2022

Presenting to the doctor’s office (quite obviously this implies mobility to get to the docs office, as opposed to being on their death bed) needing pain meds with those patients who are suffering incredible pain, and with incurable, debilitating, deteriorating illness. TERMINAL ILLNESS.

According to the article, these patients were dying, and in agony.

Here is a snippet from the CNN article:

Husel’s defense called just one witness, Dr. Joel Zivot, who studied the medical records of the 14 patients and determined they had severe and unrecoverable illnesses. Zivot also testified that recovery to a normal state of health was not possible for the patients, and he determined underlying medical issues caused their deaths.


He was helping them to die because they were in horrible states of suffering. This isn’t Mr. Patient showing up at the local clinic asking for short term meds to get over a sore back.

I dread being in this situation, and I hope to heck there is a compassionate doctor or nurse around for when I am in this state of terminal illness. I agree that docs should not prescribe high doses of fentanyl or any narcotic for short-term pain in non-terminal illness. But this is not what the article reflects. Not by a long shot.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
62. I am not trying to equate Husel's patients with people showing up at doctor's officers.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:48 PM
Apr 2022

As for the defense, they had one witness claiming patients died from their medical issues.
While prosecution had numerous witnesses. Doses this doctor administered were not standard medical practice.
It also doesn't appear that all the patients were terminal.

"One patient, 82-year-old Melissa Penix, was given 2,000 micrograms of fentanyl and died a few minutes later. Dr. John Schweig of Tampa Bay General Hospital testified for the prosecution that Penix "definitely was not terminal, nor was continuing medical care futile.""

https://www.fox6now.com/news/dr-william-husel-found-not-guilty-in-14-ohio-patient-deaths

AZLD4Candidate

(5,639 posts)
17. I would have voted not guilty. People with terminal illnesses should have thr RIGHT to die
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 06:25 PM
Apr 2022

with dignity, not in anguish and suffering.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
41. I would have voted guilty.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 12:51 PM
Apr 2022

I am very surprised by the verdict. I guess former lawyer for Casey Anthony really can do wonders for ones defense. Although how he does it is beyond my understanding.

momta

(4,078 posts)
19. My mom died of cancer in 1979.
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 06:44 PM
Apr 2022

She spent months dying at home, and was in agony the whole time. The doctors weren't around to hear her cry, but my brothers and I were...night after night after night. We didn't want to lose her, but we knew she was dying, and just wanted her to not be in pain anymore. We were all teenagers at the time, and we still talk about it today. It was horrific.

Good for this doctor for not allowing that kind of agony.

manicdem

(387 posts)
20. Is this what it seems?
Wed Apr 20, 2022, 07:03 PM
Apr 2022

I'm all for people having the choice to end their lives. However this article didn't state this was medically assisted suicide or it was the patients choice to die.

I'm sure it's likely not, but did he give patients an overdose against their will?

Sick_n_Tired

(21 posts)
37. I agree
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 08:58 AM
Apr 2022

Suicide is far too stigmatized. We encourage autonomy with every other aspect of our lives - body positivity, gender acceptance, abortion, etc - but when it comes to suicide we wring our hands and feel like there must be something wrong, mentally with the person. Sometimes life isnt what its chalked up to be and we were never given a choice to be born in the first place. Its my life (or yours) and if we decide we want to end it, we should be able to with dignity. Healthy or not.

Karma13612

(4,541 posts)
36. Great news!
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 08:00 AM
Apr 2022

There is a “Patient Bill of Rights”, at least in NY state. Within those rights is one regarding Pain management. All patients have the right to be free of Pain while in the hospital’s care.

I can recall in the 80’s visit a terminal patient in the hospital who was in agony with pain. The RN (following normal standards at the time) was not allowed to give the patient pain medication outside the normal strength, dosage and frequency recommended and ordered by the patient’s doctor. I remember the patient saying that they were suffering and why was everyone worried about them getting addicted? They were going to die soon! I’ve never forgotten that.

It was some time after that, not sure when, that NY State enacted the Patient Bill of Rights.

No one should suffer in pain, especially those on their death bed. And I am 1000% supportive of a human being’s right to die when they want. Under their own determined circumstances. If they want to die, there must be a darn good reason. I’ve lived long enuf to feel that desperation, and have seen it in others.

Hela

(440 posts)
43. They didn't have to, or they couldn't.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:05 PM
Apr 2022

"Husel's defense called just one witness, Dr. Joel Zivot, who studied the medical records of the 14 patients and determined they had severe and unrecoverable illnesses. Zivot also testified that recovery to a normal state of health was not possible for the patients, and he determined underlying medical issues caused their deaths."

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
44. So if a patient can't tell a doctor what he or she would want, should
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:07 PM
Apr 2022

the doctor take it upon himself to administer large doses of fentanyl?
Perfectly healthy people die each day in this country because they overdose on drugs laced with fentanyl. In fact it is an epidemic. Deaths from fentanyl poisoning are going up.
So there is a reason why large doses of fentanyl should not be administered. Obviously, because a large dose can kill even a healthy person.
So this one witness claiming these patients died from their medical issues doesn't amount to a bag of beans to me.
If the doses weren't lethal, I would have asked the witness if he would agree to have these doses (and in combination with other drugs) administered to him.
After all, he is healthy, so there would be no reason for him to decline, would there be?

Hela

(440 posts)
45. Your argument is specious.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:23 PM
Apr 2022

This case is not about doctors administering fentanyl in large doses to just any patients. This is about a respected doctor, with a long history of caring and healing, administering fentanyl to 14 hospitalized patients with documented end-of-life status.

I get the sense that you have never been a caregiver for someone at the end of their life, whether they passed peacefully or in great pain. As someone who cared for her mother-in-law for 9 months through lung cancer, who gave her injections, spoon-fed her, wiped her butt, cared for the huge bedsore she developed from laying in bed and not being able to move, and who administered morphine under the tongue at home, I can tell you that I wish I'd had one of those hospice nurses give me the meaningful look with information about the overdose limit. I can tell you I wouldn't have hesitated to give my MIL that dose and help her avoid the last two weeks of her life which were primarily spent in pain or so doped up that she didn't know who she was, where she was, or who her grandchildren were.

I applaud this doctor and others like him who judiciously use all the tools available to them to help patients, whether that means they heal them and help them recover, or they help them transition to a comfortable and painless death when there is no other outcome.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
46. I don't know where you got an idea that these patients were all terminal.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:30 PM
Apr 2022

They weren't all "terminal."

"One patient, 82-year-old Melissa Penix, was given 2,000 micrograms of fentanyl and died a few minutes later. Dr. John Schweig of Tampa Bay General Hospital testified for the prosecution that Penix "definitely was not terminal, nor was continuing medical care futile.""

https://www.fox2detroit.com/news/dr-william-husel-found-not-guilty-in-14-ohio-patient-deaths

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
47. And by the way, 2000 micrograms is
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 01:40 PM
Apr 2022

definitely considered a lethal dose. Which is what the 82 years old was administered. And smaller doses could easily result in death as well.

https://www.harmreductionohio.org/how-much-fentanyl-will-kill-you-2/

moriah

(8,311 posts)
49. Dosing of opiates is not about health but about prior opiate tolerance.
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 03:45 PM
Apr 2022

Fentanyl is no different from any other opiate/opioid in that respect. Nor are the rise in deaths from fentanyl linked to doctors giving it (nor prescribing it in patch form or lollipop form).

Fatal dose amounts vary significantly -- there really isn't any one "ceiling" dose one can say is always fatal even in very opiate-tolerant individuals, and the amount some sick/frail people take to stay at a 4 instead of a 9 or a 10 on the pain scale could quite likely kill an opiate-naïve "healthy" person (especially if combined with other medications).

I don't regularly take opiates. I would be considered opiate naïve and given a lower dose. My father when he went into hospice? *Definitely* opiate-tolerant, as he'd been on methadone (cheaper for long-acting pain relief than Oxycontin, so that's what Medicaid covered) and Percocet for breakthrough pain. So depending on each apparently already dying patient's serious illness, need for pain relief, and prior opiate usage, a doctor could and should adjust the dosage for each individual.

--------

I don't think any of us knows all the facts here, and I'd want to know a lot of them before passing judgement. If these patients were like this patient, I would not judge him for a 2000 microgram dose if such a patient ended up in the hospital at the end of their life. Nor would most palliative care specialists, because of the principle of "double effect" -- in an already-dying person, aggressively treating pain is ethical if the physician's intent is to relieve suffering (and don't intend to relieve it *by* hastening death). If they were admitted like my grandmother was when she died (not on any pain medications, had congestive heart failure) and were given even 500 micrograms of fentanyl.... uh, no. Bad doctor.

Family members can influence a patient's decision about whether to go the hospice pathway or keep fighting a futile fight if they know death is coming -- if their family thinks hospice is basically euthanasia, they're far more likely to end up dying in the ICU instead of at home or in an inpatient hospice setting (like my father was). The nurses being asked to push meds may not know the patient's daily opiate dosage before admission, and legitimately question the treatment plan.

But until I know more, all I can say is he was acquitted by a jury of his peers. Hopefully the medical records were admitted into evidence and they were able to ensure he wasn't giving those doses to people like my grandmother -- but instead people like the guy titrated up to 1000 micrograms per hour transdermally, or even higher when admitted because they can't manage at home anymore/no inpatient hospice beds available.

moriah

(8,311 posts)
56. It's standard medical practice to...
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:29 PM
Apr 2022

... identify what opiates (and preferably also any other meds, like benzos) they have been taking. If they've been taking them for a long time vs less than a week, especially if they're trying a new opiate, the idea is to convert their daily dosage to their "Morphine Equivalent Dose", then the new opiate is given at a slightly lower dose than its equivalent Morphine Equivalent Dose and titrated upward.

If you don't ask what pills a patient is taking, you risk things like what happened to my grandfather -- he was hospitalized for his heart and assumed the doctors were giving him all his routine meds. He was psychotic within 3 days, and the psych doc consulted finally asked what all he took. My grandmother came up there with a suitcase full of pill bottles, because she didn't know which ones were current or leftovers from a discontinued med. (He took both Valium and Empirin-4, so yes, withdrawal psychosis from one or the other.)

Did you know they make fentanyl nasal inhalers for severe breakthrough pain? Highest dose they make is 800 micrograms (400 mcg in each nostril), but that's more than the 500 mcg one they were attempting to call murder.

--------

One other factor here is that anger is part of grief. When my mother passed away, I was angry at her for drinking herself to death and blowing it off when the doctor found bilirubin in her urine and wanted her to go back (her body, her choice.... but it hurt to watch).

But because of the *way* she died -- from a bowel perforation after she was given (over mine and my sister's objections, because she had a previous gastric bypass and already had constant loose stool) the standard dose of lactulose for a person with a normal gut... and COVID protocols meaning we couldn't sit with her and advocate for her.... the doctor NEVER calling to give us an update themselves or to talk about alternatives to lactulose... yes, I was VERY angry at the hospital/that doctor.

She might have had a few more months if the lactulose overdose didn't cause intramural gas and a perforation. But that time would have not been fun for her. She only realized her liver had complexly given out on her less than three weeks before her death, and a lot of that time was in the hospital alone. She didn't have time to make a will, or tell us what she wanted (when she was in her right mind, which she was after two days in the hospital on the first admission). or even really come to terms with the fact she was dying.

I don't know this case intimately, but I've seen people keep on fighting a futile fight because of their family's views too many times -- death and the process of dying is never "pretty", but some are harder to see than others. I've lost both my parents, and while I won't say anything about either was "easy"... it was harder to deal with a phone call from someone asking us (since Mom wasn't considered competent right then) what we thought she wanted regarding resuscitation, life support, etc than the phone call I got from the doctor who was treating my father to tell me HE was hospitalized and out of his right mind so his refusal of medical care had been deemed unreliable. Maybe it was harder because a call like that told us indirectly she was at death's door, but no doctor had ever spoken to either of us to tell us that.

But I only filed a JCAHO complaint, a Medicare complaint, and briefly considered suing for at least her copays from those two hospitalizations. They went ahead and waived them without me asking -- doubt that's standard after a death, so I guess they knew I was pissed.

If someone from the Medicare complaint people had told me that yes, he really should have considered he fact she already had nearly liquid stool as a result of the gastric bypass, and said yes the alternative drug should have been given instead.... I would have felt my anger was then justified by an outside party who didn't know her or me, and then HATE that doctor forever. I can only imagine what these families are going through, regardless of if he was simply negligent or really trying to be the Angel of Death to elderly patients without their consent.

I assume you've been following this case awhile, yes? I apologize for my ignorance on specifics.

LisaL

(44,972 posts)
59. I don't think this guy was all that concerned with
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 07:57 PM
Apr 2022

standard medical practice. Or he wouldn't be giving patients potentially lethal doses of fentanyl.

slightlv

(2,769 posts)
50. Pain management in this country is such a touchstone with me
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 05:33 PM
Apr 2022

I'm 66 years old and I fear getting older. I mean, I'm scared to death of it. As we get older, people "there, there" us to death. We lose all rights to how we feel. People stop believing us. They treat us like children. If it's this bad at 66, what's it going to be like at 76? At 86? God forbid, at 96? If I'm still at these pain levels or worse? I'll buy a damned gun and put myself out of my own misery. It's the only surefire way of legally doing it! -- republican style!

Truly -- I deal with pain that would put a full grown man down on the ground in agony and I'm afforded FOUR pain pills a day. Period. And, at that... I'm only given enough of those to last two weeks at a time... those I have to stretch for a whole month. I've been doing pretty good, mixed with the non-narcotic meds that I take for my fibromyalgia/lupus. But a perfect storm of weather conditions, allergens, and various other stressors, in addition to gastro issue where I can't swallow anything again, and I'm ready to pull my hair out. I've lost two of my cats to old age and/or diabetes. I've got another just diagnosed today with thyroid issues. She's 20. Because of my Pain levels and not being able to properly manage them, I'm damned ready to cross the rainbow bridge myself.

This WILL be the hill I die on. It's not fair for people fighting constant, chronic pain to be cast off as some kind of junkies jonesing for a fix. We don't need rehab. I've got so much titanium in my body, I laugh at all the hoopla about jet flights. I'll never be able to fly in a jet again, because I'll never be able to get past the security check in!!!! I already feel like a cyborg... just a very pain-filled cyborg. Why can't people have a little more compassion for people like us? And for those who do try to help us?

Karma13612

(4,541 posts)
60. This is little solace but
Thu Apr 21, 2022, 10:08 PM
Apr 2022

Please accept these:






I can’t imagine what you are going thru, but my heart goes out to you tonight and for the foreseeable future.

We all deserve to be pain free, and have complete body autonomy. I agree that much more is need in this country regarding those two elements. I am 68 and still don’t have a living will. I need to get that done so that my wishes are met.

💗💗💗


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