New York Fights Back on Guns and Abortion After Supreme Court Rulings

[BumRushDaShow]

Source: New York Times

A week after the Supreme Court issued monumental rulings loosening restrictions on carrying guns and overturning the constitutional right to abortion, New York began to enact sweeping measures designed to blunt the decisions’ effects. In an extraordinary session convened by Gov. Kathy Hochul that began Thursday and carried late into Friday evening, the State Legislature adopted a new law placing significant restrictions on the carrying of handguns and initiated the process of passing a constitutional amendment enshrining the right to abortion in the state of New York.

The new legislation illustrates the growing distance between a conservative-led court that has reasserted its influence in American political life and blue states such as New York — one of the most left-leaning in the nation, where all three branches of government are controlled by Democrats and President Biden easily triumphed over Donald J. Trump in 2020. As Republican-led states race rightward, the New York Legislature’s moves this week provided a preview of an intensifying clash between the court and Democratic states that will likely play out for years to come.

“We’re not going backwards,” Gov. Kathy Hochul, a Democrat, said at a news conference in Albany on Friday. “They may think they can change our lives with the stroke of a pen, but we have pens, too.” She made remarks on the coming July 4 holiday, asking New Yorkers to remember what was being commemorated: “the founding of a great country that cherished the rights of individuals, freedoms and liberty for all.” “I am standing here to protect freedom and liberty here in the state of New York,” she added.

The state’s new gun law bars the carrying of handguns in many public settings such as subways and buses, parks, hospitals, stadiums and day cares. Guns will be off-limits on private property unless the property owner indicated that he or she expressly allowed them. At the last minute, lawmakers added Times Square to the list of restricted sites.

Read more: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/01/nyregion/ny-guns-abortion-supreme-court.html

---

[SheltieLover]

1. Good!

[Harker]

2. I've been stockpiling pens.

Can't wait to vote for her.

[Cha]

3. I was waiting hoping to hear about this..

Mahalo, BRDS!

New York & other Blue States are For People.. the Extreme 6 on the SC are for Killing People.

Bunch of Sadistic Egomaniacal Morons.

Save Our Democracy💙 in 2022 & 2024!

[BumRushDaShow]

4. Me too Cha!

The SCOTUS overturned a century-old law that NY had in place. Now they can really tailor it to fit the modern firearms and circumstances.

[thatdemguy]

5. I read the case to see what it said.

The times square thing was brought up as not allowable during the hearing. This scotus is going to knock this stuff down as well, and I feel they will be even more restrictive on what they allow the states to do.

My bet is the next case against new york is going to say they cant restrict anywhere thats public, except things like courts and schools. This new law will be in the courts in a month or less, granted we have no idea what the 2nd district will say.

Trying to tell thomas FU I dont think will end well.

[BumRushDaShow]

8. D.C. has some pretty strict gun laws

for obvious reasons and although I haven't had any chance to compare what NY is doing vs what D.C. has on the books, it would be interesting if the SCOTUS goes stupid hogwild with a "for thee, not me" attitude with respect to wild wild west uncontrolled access to guns everywhere but their own backyards.

[thatdemguy]

10. Yes they do, and they started all this with heller

But believe it or not its easier to get a carry permit in DC than it is in maryland. DC is in effect a shall issue place.

In response to Palmer, the City Council passed legislation that permitted the issuance of concealed carry permits with a number of strict requirements, including the requirement that the applicant demonstrate a “special need” distinguishable from the general public for self-defense. Finally, in Wrenn, in 2017, the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit invalidated that “special need” requirement.

https://blog.scrofanolaw.com/requirements-obtain-concealed-carry-permit-dc/

[The Mouth]

21. California, too

The legislature is going "push the envelope". They are going to get smacked, at our expense.

The plain, common-sense meaning of the SCOTUS decision (and suggestions to remand several cases to appellate courts) is that any law that restricts an individual's right to carry a concealed firearm outside of *VERY* limited places, is going to get smacked down.

If a politician or highly connected rich person can get a CCW permit, then you, me, or any joe six-pack (as long as they don't have a felony or a restraining order) should be able to, too. No more of this 'one law for Senators and billionaires and a different law for everyone else. You don't need to show 'good cause' to vote, you don't need to show 'good cause' to write a letter to the editor or make a blog post.

[Aussie105]

6. SCOTUS is becoming a mean and faded copy of what it was meant to be.

Winding back progress and concern for the individual citizens of the country was never it's designated purpose.

A sad joke, it's become.

States need to man up to counteract whatever insanity the SC is infected with, and what they come up with next.

'You are not the boss of me!' definitely applies here.

[BootinUp]

7. I would have called them out

For their lies while I was at it, but that’s just me.

[lapucelle]

9. Kick

[Straw Man]

11. Some of this wouldn't stand the scrutiny of even a moderate court.

This, for example:

Guns will be off-limits on private property unless the property owner indicated that he or she expressly allowed them.

This is a de facto ban on carry everywhere. It won't pass muster.

[BumRushDaShow]

12. Someone might be channeling a zombie Scalia

as a "property rights" advocate insisting that the government can't force a property owner to comply with something enacted for public property that gets extended to their own private property.

I remember some discussion years ago where he was actually defining a distance between what would be "public property" vs "private property" for some ruling.

[Shermann]

19. +1...it sort of makes carrying a gun a felony by default

All gun laws are felonies generally speaking. There really can't be ambiguity around felonies. With public property, there are clearly stated requirements regarding signage relating to carrying firearms or clearly stated categories where this is restricted. "Private property" is far too broad of a category. NY is making it easy for SCOTUS again.

[AnrothElf]

20. I think it's saying...

That I can prohibit your guns on my private property. So, a cafe or bar owner may keep guns out.

[Straw Man]

23. Not quite.

I think it's saying...

That I can prohibit your guns on my private property. So, a cafe or bar owner may keep guns out.

That ability already exists. What the new law is saying is that guns are automatically prohibited from all private property unless express permission is publicly posted. That's a de facto blanket ban.

[Elessar Zappa]

25. New York should ignore the Supreme Court.

Fuck them, they’re illegitimate. And what army do they have to enforce their decrees?

[manicdem]

13. Simple test for laws validity

The test to determine if a law is constitutional is basically did they have laws in general like that when the Constitution was written.

If so it can stand. If not then it'll be struck down.

[SergeStorms]

14. The weather can suck at times, but.....

I wouldn't live anywhere else (and I have). I always came back to New York, the place of my birth, and it will be the place where I die.

I New York!

[pwb]

24. We have a Star and a Stripe in our flag.

Agree. Don't fuck with New York. We fight back.

[myohmy2]

15. +1...

...

[ificandream]

16. Freaking awesome.

Bravo, New York. Bravo.

[cstanleytech]

17. Hmm an unbiased SCOTUS should be ok with the private property portion

since that that is really an issue for the property owner to decide if they want to allow a person with a gun on their property but then again we are not dealing with an unbiased SCOTUS majority.

[BumRushDaShow]

18. I posted just that above

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=2937786

(channeling zombie Scalia )

[electric_blue68]

22. Yay, us! (nyc'r)

[DAngelo136]

26. The Law is an A**.

This is an outrageous example of "virtue signalling" by the governor and the legislature.
Before you dismiss me as a "typical gun nut", let me tell you that I am an over 55 African American male, Pan Africanist, atheist and Socialist and a resident of NYC. I'm probably more to the left than most of you here.

Just as a woman should have the choice to carry a pregnancy to term so also should she have the choice to have a gun to protect her from being assaulted. Had anybody paid attention, you'd have seen the amicus brief filed in favor of the plaintiffs that illustrated the harm that the law brought to people whose only "crime" was being law abiding citizens. chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/20/20-843/184718/20210723101034102_20-843%20Amici%20Brief%20revised%20cover.pdf

The law itself was more of a product of the corrupt politics of New York of the era, less than concern for public safety. https://www.historynet.com/american-schemers-big-tim-sullivan-king-of-the-bowery/

What no one wants to admit is that the police cannot help you.
https://www.thecity.nyc/2020/9/14/21437309/nypd-crime-response-time-still-lags-three-months-post-protest

Nor are they obligated to help you.
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

The standards necessary to obtain a license are far higher than it is to be a public office holder in the state of NY. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/01/new-york-gun-control-special-legislative-session
This is the same governor who replaced a sitting governor who resigned over sexual harrassment charges. And he replaced the governor who replace the previous governor for soliciting and procuring prostitutes (none of my business, but still). Not to mention that both former leaders of the legislature were convicted of felonies, one of them dying while incarcerated.
But these are the people who mandate that I be of "good character" and submit my social media for evaluation? Please.

[BumRushDaShow]

27. Well lecturing is silly

because it's obvious the old law was a product of its time in the early 20th century and was due for an update.

And since this is an anonymous board with literally thousands and thousands of active accounts who belong to a number of races, you can't somehow proclaim how "left" you purport to be compared to anyone else here considering this board is majority Boomers who are not only over 55 but over 60, with a number who are actual Marxist/Socialists but who attempt (sometimes with difficulty) to abide by the TOS that respects that the Democratic Party is a big tent with a myriad of views.

I expect that what the legislature put together was as a direct result of the nonsense coming out of states like TX and even increasingly, OH, where there is essentially the move to completely deregulate guns - EXCEPT when it comes to places where they work - in the state Capitols. They are good for the "for thee, not for me" rule.

So as soon as you come down off the high horse, consider directing the ire at states governed and managed by criminals who actively engaged in planning what we are finding was to be an armed insurrection.

And as a note, your city was also the one that elected a fucking loon as mayor for 2 terms, with 3 now-former wives disgracing them all in Gracie Mansion, who is still tangled up with ex-con Bernie Kerik, and who was and still is a master planner of that insurrection, so I suggest you look at your own backyard.

[DAngelo136]

28. RE:Well Lecturing is silly

"because it's obvious the old law was a product of its time in the early 20th century and was due for an update."

You think so? Apparently the NYS Legislature didn't think that way. This case took 5 years to get the Supreme Court in the first place. One would think that the legislature would have anticipated and adapted the law when Heller was decided, but they didn't did they?


And since this is an anonymous board with literally thousands and thousands of active accounts who belong to a number of races, you can't somehow proclaim how "left" you purport to be compared to anyone else here considering this board is majority Boomers who are not only over 55 but over 60, with a number who are actual Marxist/Socialists but who attempt (sometimes with difficulty) to abide by the TOS that respects that the Democratic Party is a big tent with a myriad of views."

I mentioned it because my view has very little daylight with those who argued for the overturn of the law in the first place. They were 2 white residents from upstate New York whose organization is affiliated with the NRA. My opinion would have been dismissed as coming from a "gun nut" or a "2A defender". I assure you that I am not. In addition by being a NYC resident, gives me more credibility because I can tell you exactly from experience what effect the law has on it's citizens of color and the present climate. So, let's dispense with the card check and address the issues at hand, shall we?

"I expect that what the legislature put together was as a direct result of the nonsense coming out of states like TX and even increasingly, OH, where there is essentially the move to completely deregulate guns - EXCEPT when it comes to places where they work - in the state Capitols. They are good for the "for thee, not for me" rule."

That was the effect of the law when it was enacted in 1911. It was more of a cudgel against the enemies of Tammany Hall than it was about public safety. It was true then and the same now. Again, look to the amicus brief and see the example pointed out. All three of the filers were from Black, left leaning public defender law organizations who opined that the law in it's application is racist.
https://www.scotusblog.com/2021/10/we-are-public-defenders-new-yorks-gun-laws-eviscerate-our-clients-second-amendment-rights/
Did you take the time to read it? Didn't it strike you as odd that such organizations would advocate FOR the repeal of the law? While Texas is an extreme case, most New Yorkers agree with reasonable gun control laws. Instead, Governor Hochul ( I might remind you is up for election for a full term) basically doubled down by co signing a ridiculous set of new regulations, which would mandate the submission of social media links. To me, this is just as bad as the anti choice states tracking potentially pregnant women through their apps and social media. Last I looked, two wrongs don't make a right.

"So as soon as you come down off the high horse, consider directing the ire at states governed and managed by criminals who actively engaged in planning what we are finding was to be an armed insurrection."

Apparently, you don't live in NYC. Let me show you the headlines from the past week:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/30/woman-shot-and-killed-while-pushing-baby-stroller-in-new-york-city
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/bronx-dekalb-avenue-scooter-shooting/
https://www.amny.com/news/man-sought-shooting-teen-bronx-june-28-2022/
https://www.fox5ny.com/news/bronx-robber-stabbed-victims-before-stealing-cash-nypd
Having lived in NYC during the worst days of the mid to late 70's crime spike, the fear is real. Of course statistics say that overall, crime is down but try to tell that to the residents and convince them otherwise. Good luck with that.

Mayor Adams isn't doing very well in the polls:
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/mayor-eric-adams-receives-poor-ratings-from-new-york-city-residents-siena-poll-shows/
And the major reason is crime. He's in the same position that Mayor Beame was in the early 70's budget crisis (How does a man who was the city's comptroller NOT see the fiscal crisis coming?) How does a former police officer NOT deal with crime?

I'm on a "high horse" because I CAN ride one. How about you?

"And as a note, your city was also the one that elected a fucking loon as mayor for 2 terms, with 3 now-former wives disgracing them all in Gracie Mansion, who is still tangled up with ex-con Bernie Kerik, and who was and still is a master planner of that insurrection, so I suggest you look at your own backyard.
Because you're NOT from here, you don't understand the nuances of NYC politics. Giuliani had already lost to Dinkins before. Unfortunately, Dinkins (who was a nice man but a not a great politician) was caught up in the racial politics of the city. What turned it for Giuliani was the marginal win in the borough of Queens, the narrow loss in Brooklyn and a total win in Staten Island; a Republican stronghold.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_New_York_City_mayoral_election.
What also helped the turnout for Giuliani was the ballot resolution regarding Staten Island separating from NYC (Unlikely and against the City Charter)
I know my "backyard" very well, along with riding high horses. So when it comes to New York politics, you're not talking to some rookie who doesn't know what's going on. So you'd do well to keep a civil tongue in your head. I've forgotten more about city politics than you'll ever know.
In Rudy's 2nd term, the best the Dems could muster was Ruth Messinger; nice lady but couldn't inspire anybody to vote for her:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_New_York_City_mayoral_election

But I digress. Kathy Hochul is basically fighting for her political life right now. She being from upstate NY (Buffalo, NY) she knows instinctively she has to separate herself from the Andrew Cuomo legacy (for better or worse) and she'll need every vote she can get to fend off the Republican Conservative Lee Zeldin (Nassau County). He's anti abortion and a Trump supporter so she should squash him but she's not taking any chances (Upstate New York is heavily Trump territory) So she's going to virtue signal as much as she can so she doesn't lose votes.
But in the meanwhile, this piece of garbage bill they've just passed and she'll probably sign, doesn't help anybody and as somebody pointed out, might make reasonable gun control laws harder to pass. If she pissed off someone like me, what do you think she's done to those upstate voters who cheered the repeal of the Sullivan Laws?
Care to answer?

[BumRushDaShow]

29. To respond

"because it's obvious the old law was a product of its time in the early 20th century and was due for an update."

You think so? Apparently the NYS Legislature didn't think that way. This case took 5 years to get the Supreme Court in the first place. One would think that the legislature would have anticipated and adapted the law when Heller was decided, but they didn't did they?

I would expect that most legislatures (outside of activist ones with an agenda) are of a mindset of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", with the caveat that since it took 106 years for someone to bring a case that prevailed all the way to the SCOTUS, that law was obviously found to be a stalwart of leaving it as is - even after the AWB and Brady went into effect.

And since this is an anonymous board with literally thousands and thousands of active accounts who belong to a number of races, you can't somehow proclaim how "left" you purport to be compared to anyone else here considering this board is majority Boomers who are not only over 55 but over 60, with a number who are actual Marxist/Socialists but who attempt (sometimes with difficulty) to abide by the TOS that respects that the Democratic Party is a big tent with a myriad of views."

I mentioned it because my view has very little daylight with those who argued for the overturn of the law in the first place. They were 2 white residents from upstate New York whose organization is affiliated with the NRA. My opinion would have been dismissed as coming from a "gun nut" or a "2A defender". I assure you that I am not. In addition by being a NYC resident, gives me more credibility because I can tell you exactly from experience what effect the law has on it's citizens of color and the present climate. So, let's dispense with the card check and address the issues at hand, shall we?

Again - there are many thousands of users on this site including native and current residents of NYC, and including those who are POC. So your assumption that you are somehow the only one is nonsense.

And most of these issues and discussions involving gun control (or none) are subjects of for what is dubbed "the Gungeon" - the two discussion Groups set aside for such discourse. So unless you chose to frequent those Groups to actually see what is being talked about, then your conclusions are meaningless because this forum (like General Discussion) as are the other "main" forums, are off-limits to those discussions and one would be directed to Gun Control & RKBA (Group) and/or Gun Control Reform Activism (Group)

And I can see why you get dismissed just based on how you react when confronted due to such a knee-jerk defensive attitude.

"So as soon as you come down off the high horse, consider directing the ire at states governed and managed by criminals who actively engaged in planning what we are finding was to be an armed insurrection."

Apparently, you don't live in NYC. Let me show you the headlines from the past week:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jun/30/woman-shot-and-killed-while-pushing-baby-stroller-in-new-york-city
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/bronx-dekalb-avenue-scooter-shooting/
https://www.amny.com/news/man-sought-shooting-teen-bronx-june-28-2022/
https://www.fox5ny.com/news/bronx-robber-stabbed-victims-before-stealing-cash-nypd
Having lived in NYC during the worst days of the mid to late 70's crime spike, the fear is real. Of course statistics say that overall, crime is down but try to tell that to the residents and convince them otherwise. Good luck with that.

I was born and raised and am a multi-generational Philadelphian just 90 miles to the south and who has been to NYC many times and have close relatives who have lived there. I have been an avid radio listener all my life including most of those stations there i NYC (and yes, that included Al Sharpton and NAN, before he hit TV, as well as a listener of WLIB and other stations that Bob Law has broadcast on - you do know who he is, right?). I also have a whole line on my father's side who have lived in the Rochester/Buffalo area since the early 1800s (yes who were on their way to Canada like many many others back then. For. Reasons. But stayed. )

Mayor Adams isn't doing very well in the polls:
https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/mayor-eric-adams-receives-poor-ratings-from-new-york-city-residents-siena-poll-shows/
And the major reason is crime. He's in the same position that Mayor Beame was in the early 70's budget crisis (How does a man who was the city's comptroller NOT see the fiscal crisis coming?) How does a former police officer NOT deal with crime?

I'm on a "high horse" because I CAN ride one. How about you?

IMHO, Eric Adams was a gimmick who took over for a previous gimmick. NYC has a way of self-managing through their Borough Presidents and it seems the mayoralty has become more of a P.R. position vs an actual functioning position (see Bloomberg buying a 3rd term).

And riding "high horses" means harder falls. Remember that.

"And as a note, your city was also the one that elected a fucking loon as mayor for 2 terms, with 3 now-former wives disgracing them all in Gracie Mansion, who is still tangled up with ex-con Bernie Kerik, and who was and still is a master planner of that insurrection, so I suggest you look at your own backyard.
Because you're NOT from here, you don't understand the nuances of NYC politics. Giuliani had already lost to Dinkins before.

There you go again. You have zero idea about what I "understand".

Unfortunately, Dinkins (who was a nice man but a not a great politician) was caught up in the racial politics of the city. What turned it for Giuliani was the marginal win in the borough of Queens, the narrow loss in Brooklyn and a total win in Staten Island; a Republican stronghold.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_New_York_City_mayoral_election.
What also helped the turnout for Giuliani was the ballot resolution regarding Staten Island separating from NYC (Unlikely and against the City Charter)

I know my "backyard" very well, along with riding high horses. So when it comes to New York politics, you're not talking to some rookie who doesn't know what's going on. So you'd do well to keep a civil tongue in your head. I've forgotten more about city politics than you'll ever know.

In Rudy's 2nd term, the best the Dems could muster was Ruth Messinger; nice lady but couldn't inspire anybody to vote for her:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_New_York_City_mayoral_election

Well now that's pretty arrogant. You can't argue when you have zero idea of who you are lecturing to, nor my background, nor history, nor age, nor even race. You know what they say about those who "assume". Again, I suggest you come off the high horse 'cause it's bucking mightily.

But I digress. Kathy Hochul is basically fighting for her political life right now. She being from upstate NY (Buffalo, NY) she knows instinctively she has to separate herself from the Andrew Cuomo legacy (for better or worse) and she'll need every vote she can get to fend off the Republican Conservative Lee Zeldin (Nassau County). He's anti abortion and a Trump supporter so she should squash him but she's not taking any chances (Upstate New York is heavily Trump territory) So she's going to virtue signal as much as she can so she doesn't lose votes.
But in the meanwhile, this piece of garbage bill they've just passed and she'll probably sign, doesn't help anybody and as somebody pointed out, might make reasonable gun control laws harder to pass. If she pissed off someone like me, what do you think she's done to those upstate voters who cheered the repeal of the Sullivan Laws?
Care to answer?

Well my "answer" is that LBN is NOT the "Gungeon" and your subject matter is dealing directly with "guns". But I expect no matter what legislation gets passed and signed there related to firearms, it will be immediately challenged in court (state and federal). So getting into a tizzy right now is silly as I expect it might end up getting a stay from going into effect while it is combed through.

So cheer up but in the meantime, grow up.

[DAngelo136]

31. InRes: My response

"I would expect that most legislatures (outside of activist ones with an agenda) are of a mindset of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", with the caveat that since it took 106 years for someone to bring a case that prevailed all the way to the SCOTUS, that law was obviously found to be a stalwart of leaving it as is - even after the AWB and Brady went into effect.

Nonsense. Especially where the NY Legislature is concerned. For decades, in NYC you could be locked up for having a "gravity knife" in your possession; a mere folding knife. This law came about from the 50's (By the way, there's no such thing as a gravity knife in reality) after years of complaints and grievances, did the Legislature finally change the law.https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/31/nyregion/ny-gravity-knife-law.html
It was only recently that the law regarding prostitution was changed; that a woman (mainly of color) could be arrested for merely having a condom in their possession; https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/12/nyc-cops-wont-seize-condoms/9002435/
These laws also had been on the books for decades. And only after much lobbying were they repealed. This is a state whose legislature hasn't brought a budget in on time since the days of FDR in the Governor's Mansion. But less than a week after the Sullivan Laws were repealed, they managed to rewrite the laws in reaction with lightning speed. Not only that, they now demand that applicants give over social media links for the NYPD to evaluate their "good character". This should be unacceptable to ANYBODY.

Again - there are many thousands of users on this site including native and current residents of NYC, and including those who are POC. So your assumption that you are somehow the only one is nonsense."

I didn't say I was the only one. Quote me correctly please. If a conservative MAGA loving Trump supporter had come on this forum making the same points I did, would you or anybody give it any credence? Would the complaint be any less legitimate? You have yet to address those points.

"And most of these issues and discussions involving gun control (or none) are subjects of for what is dubbed "the Gungeon" - the two discussion Groups set aside for such discourse. So unless you chose to frequent those Groups to actually see what is being talked about, then your conclusions are meaningless because this forum (like General Discussion) as are the other "main" forums, are off-limits to those discussions and one would be directed to Gun Control & RKBA (Group) and/or Gun Control Reform Activism (Group)"
This discussion isn't taking place in that forum. It's taking place here and now. I'm beginning to see the wisdom in the William F. Buckley quote “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”

"I was born and raised and am a multi-generational Philadelphian just 90 miles to the south and who has been to NYC many times and have close relatives who have lived there. I have been an avid radio listener all my life including most of those stations there i NYC (and yes, that included Al Sharpton and NAN, before he hit TV, as well as a listener of WLIB and other stations that Bob Law has broadcast on - you do know who he is, right?). I also have a whole line on my father's side who have lived in the Rochester/Buffalo area since the early 1800s (yes who were on their way to Canada like many many others back then. For. Reasons. But stayed. )"

Third generation New Yorker here. My grandparents came here during the Great Migration of the earlier part of the 20th century; one grandparent was born and raised in New Haven, CT. Lifelong resident, have other family members here and in some of our "fine state institutions upstate" if you get my drift. Educated, and raised here during the good ol, bad ol days of the decline of NYC. Lived long enough to ride some of the remaining elevated trains in the Bronx and Brooklyn, see Yankee Games in the old Yankee Stadium (the one before the refurbishing) Lived through 2 blackouts, 9 mayors, 6 governors, a major fiscal crisis, a reorganization of the City Charter, two MSG buildings, 1 Subway Series, and a Knicks NBA Championship. I've listened to WMCA's Good Guys, WLIB's Eddie O'Jay, WBLS with "Hollywood Frankie Crocker and the emergence of Urban Contemporary Radio, WABC before Talk Radio and Rush Limbaugh (Long may he stay dead) the beginning of Hip Hop (My cousin lived in the building down the block on Sedgwick Ave from where DJ Kool Herc started his house parties) I could go on but I think I've established my bona fides as a NYC resident and I won't belabor the point.

"There you go again. You have zero idea about what I "understand".

And yet you don't address the simple election facts that I've presented. Don't believe me? Let the press tell you:

"The tough-talking mayor of the heavily Democratic city was favored all along to defeat the Manhattan borough president, making Giuliani the first Republican New York City mayor since 1941 to win a second term. He ran an aggressive campaign, even though he enjoyed a wide lead in the polls and, in his victory speech, thanked New Yorkers for re-electing him "to a job that I love."
Low on campaign funds, Messinger trailed in the polls by as much as 20 points against an opponent endorsed by most of the city's newspapers. In the final weeks of the campaign, it was not a question whether Messinger would lose but by how much. Recent charges that Giuliani was mean and over-zealous did little to hurt his popularity, whose foundation rested on his strong and successful stance against crime. Concern about police brutality failed to tarnish an administration credited with bringing safety and economic recovery to a city once known as a symbol of urban decay.
Since Giuliani narrowly defeated David Dinkins in 1993, the quality of life in the city has blossomed. Tourism is up, and much of the seediness, filth and violence that once characterized New York have retreated.
Giuliani achieved this urban renaissance while lowering taxes, cutting 60,000 city employees from the payroll, taking a firm stand on welfare reform, and working to end Mafia control of industries like garbage collection and wholesale food sales.
Although Democrats outnumber Republicans 5-1 in the city, Messinger trailed in the polls and even had trouble wresting the nomination from her Democratic primary challenger, Rev. Al Sharpton. A member of the city's liberal establishment, Messinger unsuccessfully tried to focus the race on education and job creation.

https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/11/04/mayor/

I guess you had to be there. Oh, that's right I WAS. I was one of those who campaigned for her on the Democratic ticket.

""Well now that's pretty arrogant. You can't argue when you have zero idea of who you are lecturing to, nor my background, nor history, nor age, nor even race. You know what they say about those who "assume". Again, I suggest you come off the high horse 'cause it's bucking mightily."
At this point, your statements deserve Hitchen's Razor: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." You don't like my style of argument? Well, boo fricking hoo. Now, there's a "New York" answer for you from an actual New Yorker.

Well my "answer" is that LBN is NOT the "Gungeon" and your subject matter is dealing directly with "guns". But I expect no matter what legislation gets passed and signed there related to firearms, it will be immediately challenged in court (state and federal). So getting into a tizzy right now is silly as I expect it might end up getting a stay from going into effect while it is combed through."

No, my answer is dealing directly with the law; as I said, I rarely agree with the conservative's legal reasoning. But, in the case of Heller, it's hard to refute Scalia's reasoning. (You can also see who the actual "brains of the outfit" was between he and Thomas) The law as given still doesn't address the problems experienced by the average New Yorker who right now is frightened out of his mind.
I find hypocritical that the Governor and legislature are implementing nearly identical tactics that non choice states are with those seeking an abortion. In both cases, the state dogmatically thinks it knows best for the individual citizen without taking into account their individual situation. In the case of the conservative, his nightmare is a conga line of women having abortions at will and "irresponsibly" while the liberal's nightmare is a re enactment of the "Wild West" shootouts on the streets by "irresponsible" people.
Never mind that the vast majority of people in both scenarios are responsible, law abiding citizens. In both cases, they assume facts not in evidence. And both would be guilty of being paternalistic in their approach.

You seem to be more offended by my rhetoric than the gist of my arguments. I'm not here to assuage your feelings. Not where my rights are concerned. And they are indeed my rights. I would be just as strident if the subject were abortion and I were a woman whose rights were being trampled upon. It's not my problem if your sensitive feelings are bruised "Grow up", indeed. I would also add "Physician heal thyself."
And you have a good night.

[BumRushDaShow]

32. And in response

"I would expect that most legislatures (outside of activist ones with an agenda) are of a mindset of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", with the caveat that since it took 106 years for someone to bring a case that prevailed all the way to the SCOTUS, that law was obviously found to be a stalwart of leaving it as is - even after the AWB and Brady went into effect.

Nonsense. Especially where the NY Legislature is concerned. For decades, in NYC you could be locked up for having a "gravity knife" in your possession; a mere folding knife. This law came about from the 50's (By the way, there's no such thing as a gravity knife in reality) after years of complaints and grievances, did the Legislature finally change the law.https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/31/nyregion/ny-gravity-knife-law.html
It was only recently that the law regarding prostitution was changed; that a woman (mainly of color) could be arrested for merely having a condom in their possession; https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/05/12/nyc-cops-wont-seize-condoms/9002435/
These laws also had been on the books for decades. And only after much lobbying were they repealed. This is a state whose legislature hasn't brought a budget in on time since the days of FDR in the Governor's Mansion. But less than a week after the Sullivan Laws were repealed, they managed to rewrite the laws in reaction with lightning speed. Not only that, they now demand that applicants give over social media links for the NYPD to evaluate their "good character". This should be unacceptable to ANYBODY.

Well you just argued my very point. Perhaps a better way to state it - "if it ain't broke, don't fix and if it is broke, 'we'll decide if it is broke and will get back to you'".

And yes it is unacceptable but it is reality. Every state has laws "still on the books" that are not only beyond obsolete, but are often obscure until someone discovers one and attempts to apply it. A number of states used to have (and we still have them here) - "Blue Laws" and even levy what are nowadays, minuscule fines for violations.

And complaints about "budgets" is not unique to NY - right now PA has no budget and the fiscal year started July 1st. They apparently have enough to tide over for a few weeks before all hell breaks loose. I agree it is unacceptable but this is par for the course.

I wouldn't be surprised if the legislative Committees have attempted draft changes over the years for that 1911 law but they sat in committee with no final action, so they might have already had some foundational legislation that could be tweaked to use. Hell ALEC creates generally RW legislation for multiple subjects and states have used those to kick start new laws in red states. I wouldn't be surprised if some other think tank had something similar ready to go for NY to use.

Again - there are many thousands of users on this site including native and current residents of NYC, and including those who are POC. So your assumption that you are somehow the only one is nonsense."

I didn't say I was the only one. Quote me correctly please. If a conservative MAGA loving Trump supporter had come on this forum making the same points I did, would you or anybody give it any credence? Would the complaint be any less legitimate? You have yet to address those points.

This is what you wrote -

let me tell you that I am an over 55 African American male, Pan Africanist, atheist and Socialist and a resident of NYC. I'm probably more to the left than most of you here.

and then add this with -

I can tell you exactly from experience what effect the law has on it's citizens of color and the present climate. So, let's dispense with the card check and address the issues at hand, shall we?

with ridiculous commentary about "card check". It shows that you won't accept that you might be debating someone who has similar "credentials".

"And most of these issues and discussions involving gun control (or none) are subjects of for what is dubbed "the Gungeon" - the two discussion Groups set aside for such discourse. So unless you chose to frequent those Groups to actually see what is being talked about, then your conclusions are meaningless because this forum (like General Discussion) as are the other "main" forums, are off-limits to those discussions and one would be directed to Gun Control & RKBA (Group) and/or Gun Control Reform Activism (Group)"
This discussion isn't taking place in that forum. It's taking place here and now. I'm beginning to see the wisdom in the William F. Buckley quote “Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views.”

And that is why the warning because it has nothing to do with "other views" but with Democratic Underground's "rules" for posting on this site. That was a decision put into effect by this site's owners and you sign off on them when you accept the Terms of Service. Similar applies to topics such as religion, sports, entertainment, etc., which have their own Groups for more extensive discussion so they won't overwhelm other political subject matter. Even the Lounge has restrictions where threads that actually deal with "politics" can be locked because that is considered "off topic" for that forum.

"I was born and raised and am a multi-generational Philadelphian just 90 miles to the south and who has been to NYC many times and have close relatives who have lived there. I have been an avid radio listener all my life including most of those stations there i NYC (and yes, that included Al Sharpton and NAN, before he hit TV, as well as a listener of WLIB and other stations that Bob Law has broadcast on - you do know who he is, right?). I also have a whole line on my father's side who have lived in the Rochester/Buffalo area since the early 1800s (yes who were on their way to Canada like many many others back then. For. Reasons. But stayed. )"

Third generation New Yorker here. My grandparents came here during the Great Migration of the earlier part of the 20th century; one grandparent was born and raised in New Haven, CT. Lifelong resident, have other family members here and in some of our "fine state institutions upstate" if you get my drift. Educated, and raised here during the good ol, bad ol days of the decline of NYC. Lived long enough to ride some of the remaining elevated trains in the Bronx and Brooklyn, see Yankee Games in the old Yankee Stadium (the one before the refurbishing) Lived through 2 blackouts, 9 mayors, 6 governors, a major fiscal crisis, a reorganization of the City Charter, two MSG buildings, 1 Subway Series, and a Knicks NBA Championship. I've listened to WMCA's Good Guys, WLIB's Eddie O'Jay, WBLS with "Hollywood Frankie Crocker and the emergence of Urban Contemporary Radio, WABC before Talk Radio and Rush Limbaugh (Long may he stay dead) the beginning of Hip Hop (My cousin lived in the building down the block on Sedgwick Ave from where DJ Kool Herc started his house parties) I could go on but I think I've established my bona fides as a NYC resident and I won't belabor the point.

And see I remember listening to Limpballs' very first show because Lynn Samuels was on WABC during the noon slot (I think her slot may have originally been 10 am - 2 pm) and whined about being "kicked out of her studio" for his show. I have listened to Curtis Sliwa and his wife Lisa (and their shows years ago) and remember his decades-ago "Guardian Angels", and one cannot forget the legendary bigot Bob Grant. I was always fascinated at how the network flagship stations were "660" (WNBC), "770" (WABC), and "880" (WCBS) and even remember when WNBC (now WFAN) was a music station. And yes whenever I traveled there (or past there on the way to college in MA) would (barely) pick up 'BLS.

As the 2 largest cities on the east coast, Philly and NYC have a long history of interaction including "stealing players".

But also be aware that I have had a subscription to the NYT since 1976 and my mom had a subscription to the WSJ (before Murdoch took it over) and it would arrive in the mailbox daily (and later was delivered with the NYT when local news publishers established large print shops in various regions outside of the home paper's locale, that were printing national papers and distributing them to subscribers in those out-of-town locations).

"There you go again. You have zero idea about what I "understand".

And yet you don't address the simple election facts that I've presented. Don't believe me? Let the press tell you:

"The tough-talking mayor of the heavily Democratic city was favored all along to defeat the Manhattan borough president, making Giuliani the first Republican New York City mayor since 1941 to win a second term. He ran an aggressive campaign, even though he enjoyed a wide lead in the polls and, in his victory speech, thanked New Yorkers for re-electing him "to a job that I love."
Low on campaign funds, Messinger trailed in the polls by as much as 20 points against an opponent endorsed by most of the city's newspapers. In the final weeks of the campaign, it was not a question whether Messinger would lose but by how much. Recent charges that Giuliani was mean and over-zealous did little to hurt his popularity, whose foundation rested on his strong and successful stance against crime. Concern about police brutality failed to tarnish an administration credited with bringing safety and economic recovery to a city once known as a symbol of urban decay.
Since Giuliani narrowly defeated David Dinkins in 1993, the quality of life in the city has blossomed. Tourism is up, and much of the seediness, filth and violence that once characterized New York have retreated.
Giuliani achieved this urban renaissance while lowering taxes, cutting 60,000 city employees from the payroll, taking a firm stand on welfare reform, and working to end Mafia control of industries like garbage collection and wholesale food sales.
Although Democrats outnumber Republicans 5-1 in the city, Messinger trailed in the polls and even had trouble wresting the nomination from her Democratic primary challenger, Rev. Al Sharpton. A member of the city's liberal establishment, Messinger unsuccessfully tried to focus the race on education and job creation.

https://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/11/04/mayor/

I guess you had to be there. Oh, that's right I WAS. I was one of those who campaigned for her on the Democratic ticket.

Why do you keep assuming that others are clueless about what went on in NYC in the '70s/'80s (Ed Koch anyone? Yusef Hawkins was big news here), and '90s? Just like many of us here supported Harold Washington in Chicago in 1983, many of us supported (including financially) and celebrated David Dinkins in NYC, like we celebrated Wilson Goode here in Philly back in 1984. The "firsts".

And I remember this incident and have posted this video MANY MANY times here on DU regarding the thug Ghouliani -

I also know that many practices from NYC brought about by Bloomberg like "Stop and Frisk" and the "Sugary drink (Soda) tax" were implemented here in Philly (and in the case of the latter, when it was halted there, they managed to find a way to beat the courts with it and put it into effect here).

""Well now that's pretty arrogant. You can't argue when you have zero idea of who you are lecturing to, nor my background, nor history, nor age, nor even race. You know what they say about those who "assume". Again, I suggest you come off the high horse 'cause it's bucking mightily."
At this point, your statements deserve Hitchen's Razor: "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." You don't like my style of argument? Well, boo fricking hoo. Now, there's a "New York" answer for you from an actual New Yorker.

Like I said, but will put it more succinctly - it's juvenile to assume what people know and what their experiences are and then to end an argument with a "nyah nyah". And as a note, I used to follow Christopher Hitchens - he would be on various political organization/conference panels aired by CSPAN all the time (and I have been a CSPAN junkie since we got cable in my area back in 1989). But then he descended into madness before he died.

Well my "answer" is that LBN is NOT the "Gungeon" and your subject matter is dealing directly with "guns". But I expect no matter what legislation gets passed and signed there related to firearms, it will be immediately challenged in court (state and federal). So getting into a tizzy right now is silly as I expect it might end up getting a stay from going into effect while it is combed through."

No, my answer is dealing directly with the law; as I said, I rarely agree with the conservative's legal reasoning. But, in the case of Heller, it's hard to refute Scalia's reasoning. (You can also see who the actual "brains of the outfit" was between he and Thomas) The law as given still doesn't address the problems experienced by the average New Yorker who right now is frightened out of his mind.
I find hypocritical that the Governor and legislature are implementing nearly identical tactics that non choice states are with those seeking an abortion. In both cases, the state dogmatically thinks it knows best for the individual citizen without taking into account their individual situation. In the case of the conservative, his nightmare is a conga line of women having abortions at will and "irresponsibly" while the liberal's nightmare is a re enactment of the "Wild West" shootouts on the streets by "irresponsible" people.
Never mind that the vast majority of people in both scenarios are responsible, law abiding citizens. In both cases, they assume facts not in evidence. And both would be guilty of being paternalistic in their approach.

Yet your inability to "see" the "message" that is being "sent" by the state's politicos when this nation is in the midst of a "political battle of wills and ideals", while focusing on the "weeds" of it, is what I want to point out.

And that is why *I* would never go into politics. It's a dirty business, this is par for the course, and you are seeing it first hand. I consider it "macro bluster". Is this type of thing effective? We'll soon find out.

Your city sent us one Ed Rendell, former Philly D.A. (2 terms), former Philly mayor (2 terms), and former PA governor (2 terms) who is a -

And as slick a politician as can be but considered a bulwark of the Democratic party during a time when there was a need to change direction.

You seem to be more offended by my rhetoric than the gist of my arguments. I'm not here to assuage your feelings. Not where my rights are concerned. And they are indeed my rights. I would be just as strident if the subject were abortion and I were a woman whose rights were being trampled upon. It's not my problem if your sensitive feelings are bruised "Grow up", indeed. I would also add "Physician heal thyself."
And you have a good night.

Preconceptions, assumptions, insults, and condescending remarks packaged as "rhetoric" do not constitute "debate". They diminish any legitimate substance of one's point of view. One can be "strident" and passionate without the personal attacks that you continue to display and this is why you apparently feel unheard. There is a reason why and your next-to-last sentence underscores it.

And as a note - my father was a WW2 vet and he and my grandfather (who was a WW1 vet) used to go elk hunting in upstate PA (my grandfather even had a couple beagles he used to use when he did hunt), so I grew up with Field and Stream in the house and was around guns. My mother's baby brother always "packed" and still sends pics of his latest acquisitions and/or his former wives' or girl friends' acquisitions. After he moved out of Philly many years ago and would visit, he would rent a car and if we were out somewhere with him, he would pop open the glove compartment to display his ammo.

However guns are not my thing but I do know that many millions consider it a hobby (like I have a number of hobbies) regardless of any "rights", but as a hobby, it also has ramifications that other hobbies don't have.

And good morning.

[rockfordfile]

30. We have gun violence at set on high because of republican pos.

There must be action to protect Americans