Section 8 housing voucher distribution canceled after thousands waiting in line get out of control

[FrodosPet]

Source: WXYZ Detroit

TAYLOR, Mich. (WXYZ) -

A chaotic scene erupted at the Taylor Human Services Center when the crowd waiting for a Section 8 housing voucher distribution got out of control.

~ snip ~

Police say thousands of people from all over the area were at the center. Many were homeless, single moms, or disabled. They were hoping to get help paying for their housing from the government.

"There was elderly, disabled people, pregnant single women. They were here for help, to get their Section 8 vouchers. It just shows you what a desperate need... some were here since yesterday," said Rhianna Rodriguez

~ snip ~

The crowd had grown overnight as more and more people arrived. Witnesses say the line stretched for a mile down Lange Road.

~ snip ~

Read more: http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/wayne_county/section-8-housing-voucher-distribution-canceled-after-thousands-waiting-in-line-get-out-of-control

[nc4bo]

1. So, so sad.

Aren't there more than a few empty buildings that can be rehabbed into multi-dwellings for these people on Section 8? Perhaps even have the future residents help?

Come on now America, we can do so much better if we only tried a bit harder.

[NutmegYankee]

2. We could if we tried.

But we don't. We suck as a society.

[FiveGoodMen]

54. "There is no such thing as society"

Thatcher said it...

http://briandeer.com/social/thatcher-society.htm

Far too many Americans agree.

And if enough people believe it, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Gormy Cuss]

3. The real problem is relying on Section 8 as the principal program for low income renters.

We need more HUD funds directed to production of new public housing with Section 8 (largely subsidies on privately-owned housing) as an adjunct.

We know how to house our lowest income households, we just don't have the will to do it.

[wickerwoman]

7. This.

The vouchers were always a scam to defund public housing, just like school vouchers are a scam to defund public education. Any decent human being looking at the colossal failure of vouchers to address homelessness needs to admit that it has been a failure and that we need to go back to building and subsidising public housing.

[juajen]

43. How about NO income.

I have a friend whose son lives in the woods in a tent. He does get food at a local soup kitchen. He is in construction and there is just no work, plus whatever money he is able to earn, he uses to buy cigarettes and beer. I understand his need for both. He continues to apply for work and when possible does day labor. He is over 45 and probably will never be hired. Of course, he has mental issues, but there is no help for that either. His Mom is widowed with low income herself, and cannot spare money for him because of her own health issues which are acute. It is a very sad situation, and is not at all unusual.

[Gormy Cuss]

44. "low income" in HUD terms includes no income

and you're right, that's a sad situation and we ought to be able to do better in terms of housing assistance for someone like him.

[butterfly77]

46. They tore most of the low income housing down..

during the Bush administration and created more homeless. Now the great awakening begins..We hear nothing from our hypocritical congress and senate they have many homes they don't give a damn!more homeless since Hurricane sandy,they don't give a damn!

They think they are protected in their gated communites but,let them keep it up and they will sooner or later get more than they bargained for they seem to think they are living in a different world. They seem to think that that crime and other disastorous think won't hit them same thing with guns,they can't take their aka forty seven or other assault weapons to sporting events,to church,to the mall,etc They can't be everywhere their mothers,fathers,children and other family members are...

These so called people who are running the government want children in orphanages,old people and disabled in nursing homes or dead, young men and women in jail working for a dollar to make them rich while WE THE PEOPLE pay room and board.

[Gormy Cuss]

49. It goes back much further than that - Nixon moved the focus away from funding new construction

of public housing. The Reagan administration did its part in further dismantling subsidized housing assistance and it's pretty much been shrinking ever since.

I think what you're referring to is the more recent programs designed to take down old, high density, decrepit public housing and replace it with low density housing and more Section 8 vouchers. The old public housing was in bad shape because of years of failure to meet maintenance needs and generally had low occupancy rates because so many units were uninhabitable. When replacement was funded, the number of units replaced was based on occupancy in the old, rather than the original capacity of those developments. So if the 1930s-era development was built with 1000 units but only 250 were inhabited at the time of funding for the demolition, only 250 replacements were funded (whether through new construction or Section8 vouchers.) In other words, 750 subsidized units were lost permanently.

[mbperrin]

4. According to the census, hundreds of thousands empty in Michigan.

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20110505/FREE/110509940/census-number-of-empty-homes-rental-properties-in-michigan-up-50-percent#


DETROIT (AP) — The number of empty homes and vacant rental properties grew by nearly 50 percent in Michigan over the past decade as the state struggled through one of the toughest economies in the country, according to 2010 census figures released today.

Nearly 660,000 homes and apartments were vacant last year across the state, or 14.6 percent, compared with fewer than 450,000 in 2000.

“Michigan was the only state to lose population this decade and until recently had the highest unemployment rate in the nation,” said Jeff Nutting, a demographer with the Southeast Michigan Council of Governments, a regional planning group.



Yes, this is the kind of waste that the "creative destruction" of capitalism brings.

[kestrel91316]

8. Most of Michigan's vacant housing is in teardown condition,

having been stripped of all pipes, fixtures, windows, interior trim, doors, etc etc etc while sitting empty for years in poor neighborhoods. Rehabbing it is a daunting task.

[Gormy Cuss]

11. In most cases though, rehabbing existing housing is cheaper than building from the ground up.

Not cheap mind you, but cheaper than new construction.

[kestrel91316]

15. True, and that old construction is pretty solid.

[FrodosPet]

33. In the City of Detroit, many are rubble piles

But there are still quite a few that could be made habitable with just new wiring, plumbing, sinks, toilets, cabinets, drywall, some Tyvek, and a new roof. About $20k to $30K each.

[mbperrin]

12. We owned and operated a small remodeling and construction firm

full-time before I began teaching.

We did then, still do, and just finished one last month, take properties stripped to the studs and rebuild them and rent them at market.

Our last project: an 8 unit two story complex of one bedroom units. Purchase: $10,000. Cost to finish: $22,000 plus 200 hours of labor by me and my oldest son. 100% are rented out at $600 per month. Less than 5 years to cover all costs, and an ongoing profit margin of more than 20% per annum on gross sales.

I began working for my grandfather at age 16, and when he died at 86, he had a 2 year waiting list of people wanting him to get to their projects. Not too bad for a German immigrant who didn't speak a word of English when he came her at age 14 on his own, eh?

Sure, it's work. So is dealing with the corrosive effects, physical, mental and spiritual, of homeless people or those crowded up in awful inadequate and even dangerous housing.

[kestrel91316]

16. My dream when I retire is to get a shabby little old 1910 Craftsman

home in some shabby little old midwestern town and fix it up. I LOVE old homes. Ought to be illegal to tear them down.

[mbperrin]

17. Yes, it should be.

One of our first projects was a 1912 red brick general store, three stories tall, 20k square feet, hurricane doors, cistern still in place, vault still there, freight elevator to haul tractors to storage on the third floor, coffin storage still on the second. The roof was gone. Makes a gorgeous antique repair and resale shop.

We're just throwing away the labor of the past and destroying a kind of beauty unlikely to return when we do those demolitions.

[louis-t]

51. Not most, but many.

A lot of Detroit is like that, some of the suburbs have small areas like that, majority of the vacant homes are being bought up and rehabbed. Michigan cities have minimum requirements for rehabbing. Some of the townships and cities will flag a home the second it becomes vacant. Then you need a c of o before inhabiting.

[FrodosPet]

27. That is one house in Michigan for every long term homeless person in America

At least it is of you trust the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development numbers.

If you consider 18.4 million vacant homes in America, that is 25 vacant homes in America for every long term homeless person

Or, another way - if the government spent ~$50,000 on 700,000 homeless people to obtain and renovate these properties, and ~$5000 a year to heat, pay local property tax, and maintain them, it would only cost $35 Billion up front and $3.5 Billion a year. Boom, no more homelessness.

[mbperrin]

38. As I explain to my students, shortages of anything from food to housing

are political decisions, not production problems.

We have great needs and idled people who want to work. But we claim that if some private company can't take in bazillions, it's wrong to do anything.

Ridiculous, and the human cost is incalculable.

[moonlady0623]

18. But who will do the rehab?

It seems obvious to even this lifelong Democrat that Government doesn't have the $ to do this job, or Government is too tied to the greedy Keepers of All Money to cut any loose.....now if only people with the $$ would invest in rehabbing then renting to low income, maybe it would happen.

[Tigress DEM]

21. Teach people getting housing assistance to do it as partial compensation.

People go out and help build homes for Habitat for Humanity. Same basic idea.

Other times you can buy a house and put in "sweat equity" as a way to bring down the COST and still ADD Value to the home.

The great part about it is that people who are getting "assistance" from the government are also paying it forward or earning it, whatever description works to say they would be in a position to be "ABLE" to be part of their own solution.

SEE "RENT-QUITY" for a bit more of my ideas on the subject.

I kept thinking to myself that so many resentful, unrealistic people in this country INSIST on balancing the budget on the backs of the poor..... WHAT IF? What if we gave the poor the means to get the job done?

What if we could keep people who are on assistance from being thrown back out on the street as soon as they get a job and start seeing a tiny bit of hope?

What if any job they had could have the paycheck funneled into accounts that preplanned their successfully leaving assistance behind with prepaid accounts for basic needs? 1 year's "rent" in advance. An account for car insurance for a year or a years worth of bus passes?

The main difference between the poor and people that can ride out situations that put people out on the street is having enough of a buffer zone between themselves and abject poverty.

Even the "working class poor" could use the program to set aside part of their income in a safe savings account for specific needs. A pre-paid medical reimbursement account that doesn't go away at the end of the year for example. AVERAGE people could use these accounts as tax shelters of a sort with the income being set aside from taxed income because it will be used for future need and therefore lessen the chance that someone in the working class would fall down into the area where full assistance would be required.

It would keep more people working, enable people to even keep a crappy minimum wage job and still have their basic needs met and be able to plot a path OUT of poverty.

[nc4bo]

25. Like Tigress mentioned.....use the same idea as Habitat for Humanity.

Train the future tenants. Everyone can learn to do alot of the work from the skilled volunteers. There'd be the benefit of people learning some very good skills which can be used to rehab other homes or buildings and who knows, perhaps some will benefit by getting jobs in those fields.

Electricians, plumbers, painters, HVAC, landscaping, structural builders, masonry, laying carpet and floor tile, maintenance, learning how to estimate materials, prices, measurements..........all skills that can be used repeatedly, anywhere.

But you're right, there definitely there needs to be some private help to go along with what the Fed or State government can do. Materials cost money but much of the labor could be voluntary, 2nd hand but in good shape, even bargained down wholesale.

BTW, I really like Tigress' idea down thread.

I've always said that if I ever got so lucky as to win a lottery, first thing I'd do is try to help provide food and shelter for those who need it; buy up some rough looking properties or large old building and turn it into something good or buy a few acres of dirt and have a neighborhood garden - give back in some way.

[FrodosPet]

29. Why should it be volunteers?

Why not give people JOBS?

Volunteerism is theft from people who need employment.

[nc4bo]

31. Habitat from Humanity uses volunteers.

Skilled and unskilled. What is wrong with that?

Governments are crying broke, too poor to provide more for the poor so let's make this a community activity. Who's going to pay all these salaries? The too poor governments? So volunteer people power, labor power, materials and time to help supplement what's already being made available.

People do take pride in things they do by themselves and for themselves rather than just taking free stuff which is contrary to what the teabagging Republicans claim. Best take away from it is the giving back to your own community whether you're on the receiving end or the giving end. There are jobs skills which can be learned and taken elsewhere.

[FrodosPet]

34. You do have a point

I suppose I should be easier on the concept, and I have a lot of respect for people who help others. But what worries me is volunteerism "mission creep". More and more tasks which used to provide employment are becoming volunteer or unpaid intern positions.

[farmbo]

26. USDA has " Self-help" housing in smaller towns

They supply a loan and the buyer provides the "sweat equity" to build the home-- under the guidance of a general contractor.

Unfortunately, HUD does not have the equivalent in urban areas.

[richmwill]

5. I can understand the desperation.

The local Section 8/HUD program here has been closed for years due to simply too long of a waiting list. They even closed down the waiting list itself, you can't even get yourself added to it anymore.

[asjr]

6. There are plenty of empty buildings all over this country because of

going out of business people. Even those with window store fronts could be reworked to be at least 3 or 4 apartments for people. There was a building in the next town that used to make SAS shoes but they left town for greener pastures or something. It stayed vacant (and it was a large building) for years. I noticed it the other day when I had not been there for some time. It is a vacant lot. They tore the building down. It is just a parcel of dirt with wild grass growing on it. There are so many ways that less fortunate people could be helped.But it takes working together to make it happen. In that same town there are two blocks of storefront property that could be used. Those people standing in line were not there to have chit-chat with their fellow humans. They were there because they need help. This country has become another world.

[tom_kelly]

9. A Disgrace!

I don't care what the disgusting right wing shitheads say about boot-straps, etc. the disregard of our society (teabagers and such) towards those with less than them is just disgusting. Period!

[rwheeler31]

10. The comments to this article are disturbing.

[Old Codger]

13. Our so called great society

Has turned into a huge mass of uncaring unreasonable "I've got mine fuck you" morass that is fast heading for third world status thanks to the far right extremism engendered and championed by the repig party.

[Skittles]

14. I can guarantee you

the majority of those sick comments are from people who consider themselves "Christians"

[Brigid]

37. That's putting it mildly.

When I keep saying that we are rapidly turning into a "Mad Max" society, this is exactly what I mean: Desperate people trying to.get help, while others make fun of them or blame them, or both.

[TheMightyFavog]

19. These comments...

From the same asshole:

I am an employer and I try to hire people every week. They will not work for $9-$10 per hour because they get EBT, section 8, health care for their kids, etc. They tell me that they make more by staying home than is they come to work. So yes, there are jobs and some good jobs but we have extended unemployment forever so why would they want to come back to work?

Maybe if you fucking paid more than 9 bucks an hour?

You found the answer to the problem... put 1-pair of Air Jordan's in the center of a football field. Give all of them hand guns and tell them whoever can get to them first can keep them. I think this would allow them, the "takers" to solve their own problems.

[Marcia Brady]

50. How much should he pay them?

Without knowing what his business is, where it is located, what qualifications the jobs require, what his profit margin is, what other bennies he provides--how can you make a blanket statement like he should pay them more than $9/hour.

I have been at my job for almost 5 years, and don't make much more than $10/hour. It's not a great wage, but it's better than nothing, and I'm happy to have it.

[Tigress DEM]

20. We need a new solution RENT-QUITY.

I've been thinking about it a lot lately. That any type of government owned or funded housing should make the rent paid become "RENT-QUITY" so that over time someone could build up a down payment to actually purchase an apartment or house either on the outside market so it's a boost or within the market so the "mortgage" continues to pay into the system and make that money available to others who come to the program after.

Houses, apartments, hotels that go into foreclosure could be granted to the government at a partial compensation so the government can refab as needed an make the units as energy efficient, self sustaining and "off the grid" as possible to make these homes "harder to lose" due to bills piling up.

Say a hotel went into default and the government bought it up. Solar panels and wind turbines could go up and people could come into this type of situation from being homeless or as young people wanting to be on their own to get themselves set up for their future. Lots of refurb would mean jobs and even mutual resources like a hybrid courtesy shuttle to go out for groceries etc would stretch people's money to the point where even minimum wage COULD be a living wage.

People in the "hotel phase" would literally have a minimal life style and maid service. They would be in a space of paying into the RENT-QUITY system and even into a MOVING ON VOUCHER system that would basically be like pre-paid credit, but it would make it possible to get one's basic needs for food, shelter, clothing met while training for a better job or while working to put away 1 years worth of expense vouchers in advance so that if in one month you lose a job, there is a cushion of pre-paid vouchers to prevent a person or family from just falling off the financial cliff.

The hotel lobby could become more of a hydroponic growing area with strawberries, grapes, cucumbers and tomatoes under plant lights and for other food items, a co-op or farmers market could take over a banquet room. People could work together to prepare large meals together once or twice a week and take "home" family size portions to their kitchenettes to be eaten during the week. The economy of scale would combine their purchase power and bring down the cost of meals.

Homeowners in foreclosure situations wouldn't need to move out, but could transfer their debt and equity to the government and re-write their loan/mortgage to make it RENT-QUITABLE. What they pay into the system one way or another could follow them to a better living situation as their needs change.

It would be a kinder version of EMINENT DOMAIN where the benefit to the community would be in preventing people from being homeless. It would require laws making it possible for the banks to hand over the properties to the government without recording a great financial loss, but at the same time without charging the government inflated prices for a property.

It would require that if people are on assistance their work income could be held separately and turned into vouchers as a forward thinking plan to get someone truly "OFF" assistance and into a solid plan of success in the areas of shelter, food and basic needs being met.

It would be a real incentive for people to work hard even as they are barely scraping by on the lowest rungs of the food chain ladder. Creating accounts that are only for preplanned needs so it's clear in advance where the money is going - car insurance paid a year in advance is cheaper and then it's something that doesn't need to be dealt with again for instance.

This is not only good for the people in the program but retailers would know that X amount of vouchers for fuel were issued and will be collectable at a projected time, M amount of vouchers toward car payments, C amount of vouchers for X Y Z types of furniture etc.... economic forecasting this accurate would boost the economic outlook automatically. These people WILL have money to spend and reason to spend it when they complete their program.

AND they are either earning it outright and cooperatively saving/planning out how to spend it or using any funds from assistance to REALLY get themselves OFF assistance and into a more secure position where they can be self supporting going forward.

[Nika]

22. I have a veteran's section eight voucher and it has meant a lot to me in stabilizing my life

in the desperation of a bad job market in Eugene, Oregon. I recently had to move to a new apartment as my landlord is run by a very religious family and they have had problems with me being transgender.

The rents generally run higher on the average than the amount on the vouchers. So I was lucky to get re-housed without a new period of homeless living in my Ford Windstar.

I plan on heading back to New England this summer, fleeing this area for a place with more support for women like me with a better job market.

My heart goes out to these people. If we as a nation can't help the ma ny who are poor, we can't save the few who are rich.

That line is a quote from President Kennedy's inaugural address. He knew what he was talking about. I hope all these people get a break and some help for their situations.

Unless they do, there are no winners here.

[WooWooWoo]

48. how do you get a veterans section 8 voucher?

I will probably need something like that in a few months.

[Nika]

52. Contact the VA close to where you live

The VA has a mission to end veteran homelessness and has been given vouchers to use for veterans who have no means and are homeless, or in danger of being homeless.

The HUD-Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing (HUD-VASH) program combines Housing Choice Voucher (HCV) rental assistance for homeless Veterans with case management and clinical services provided by the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). VA provides these services for participating Veterans at VA medical centers (VAMCs) and community-based outreach clinics.

Every year since 2008, HUD and VA have awarded HUD-VASH vouchers based on geographic need and public housing agency (PHA) administrative performance. The allocation process for HUD-VASH vouchers is a collaborative approach that relies on three sets of data: HUD’s point-in-time data submitted by Continuums of Care (CoCs), VAMC data on the number of contacts with homeless Veterans, and performance data from PHAs and VAMCs. After determining which areas of the country have the highest number of homeless Veterans, the VA Central Office identifies VA facilities in the corresponding communities. HUD then selects PHAs near to the identified VA facilities, taking into consideration the PHAs’ administrative performance, and sends the PHAs invitations to apply for the vouchers.

HUD has awarded funding for approximately 10,000 HUD-VASH vouchers each year in 2008, 2009 and 2010. There is at least one site in each of the 50 states, in the District of Columbia, Puerto Rico and Guam. In 2011, $50 million was appropriated to serve approximately 7,000 voucher families. In addition, HUD set-aside $5.4 million from its 2010 allocation to competitively award over 600 project-based vouchers to existing HUD-VASH sites. Since 2008, a total of 37,975 vouchers have been awarded.

https://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/HUD?src=/program_offices/public_indian_housing/programs/hcv/vash

I waited a week for my voucher. I was dying lousy living in a Ford Windstar which crippled my job hunt dramatically and made me spend most of my time trying just to survive.

HUD-VASH Vouchers also have greater portability than regular HUD vouchers. After a year, you can move to anywhere in the U.S. and take your voucher with you.

[ReRe]

23. "America, America....

...God shed His grace on thee...."
Wonder how patriotic those people feel standing in that line...
and then after they were all turned away?

Looks to me like community orgs are going to have to step forward,
as it appears state and federal governments are defunct, churches are
nowhere in sight... and our fellow citizens desperately need help!

Holy Mary, Mother of God...help our people in Michigan! Amen.

[Javaman]

24. And yet thousand of foreclosed homes sit empty and owned by banks who don't take care of them.

america, what a country.

[Brigid]

36. Just like in the '30's.

Hungry people in bread lines, while crops rotted in the fields because the prices were so low it wasn't worth the cost to harvest them.

[lifesbeautifulmagic]

28. in my area, the waiting list for low income housing is over 5 years

and closed to taking new applicants.

Even typing that makes me sick

[catbyte]

30. Congratulations, Governor Snyder. Burn in Hell, you son of a bitch.

Isn't it fucking awesome that all those businesses got a $1.8B tax cut on the backs of these people? Welcome to Thunderdome.

[Hestia]

32. About 10 years ago, I read an article about ELF Houses in the Netherlands

(I think that is what they are called), where people take over a building if it has stood empty for 5 years. You do not have to be homeless to live there and there is no landlord. One floor of the building has families, one floor smokers, etc. In fact, if you are a tourist, you can stay there free as long as there is space.

We need to quit asking permission in this country and beg forgiveness. Yes, there are thousands of empty buildings in this country that could be rehabbed quite easily into housing. I guess no one wants to be "responsible" for it.

Please - if someone knows more about this type of housing, please speak up! Like I said, it's been 10 years or more since I read the article. It was from a tourist who stayed in one of these type of housing units and loved it.

[99th_Monkey]

39. Here's something cool we've been doing in Portland

I was one of Dignity Village's original organizers. I wasn't homeless myself, which in
some ways a liability, ironically, as I "wasn't one of them" in that sense. But that year
I spent helping to get it established with fund raising, pitching "tent city" on public
land of mostly homeless folk, just saying "hey, this is public land. We are the public
who has nowhere else to sleep, so we'll be camping here until something better option
becomes available". The city spent about 8 months chasing the Village from one vacant
piece of land to another; until finally they conceded to lease an appropriate sized plot of
city owned land to Dignity Village, that was further out of town than originally hoped,
but which had a bus line, That year (2001) was one of the most compelling and epic
slices of my entire 69 year life.

Here's DV's Wiki page, plus two YouTube videos that give both the history and a
walking tour of the Village as it pretty much appears today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dignity_Village

Early struggle phase - trailer for documentary "Out of the Doorways"

Recent walking "tour" of the Village in it's current state.

[Brigid]

35. OK, lots of older buildings needing rehab.

Lots of people needing housing. Lots of people, probably many with construction experience. The solution is obvious.

[FrodosPet]

40. Some "Street Views" of potential rehabs in Detroit

Here are a couple rough but salvageable duplexes.

http://bit.ly/XuQNwY

http://bit.ly/ZVSk3K

A few grand in each and you have some classic housing for 4 families.

[99th_Monkey]

41. Another option is "Tent Cities" that are self-governed, by and for homeless people

We've done this successfully in Portland. I was one of the organizers, who wasn't
homeless, but were there to support the homeless "doing for themselves what the
'system' was not doing" i.e. providing housing .. and doing it on public land, because
they are part of the public too, and have no where else to go.

Much more at this link, including two videos and Wiki page for Dignity Village.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=366788

[CountAllVotes]

42. Now this is very sad

I agree with others, too few programs for folks that need a place to live.

I got lucky I guess you'd say, I bought a house that was abandoned and sitting unoccupied for years it seems for a very low price in the year 2000.

Before that, I was living in a place where the landlord took Section 8 as well as standard rent payments and oh what some sad cases there were living at that dump, and yes that is what it was a place that was a not up to code dump!

The landlord would never fix a thing and he actually came around on Xmas eve. to collect the rent early as it seems he'd lost a load in the stock market as if I cared one tiny little bit.


I wonder how many other homes are sitting around like the one I am now living in? Unoccupied, rotting away and no one seems to care or be the least be interested in it.

*sigh*

[Le Taz Hot]

45. My cousin just got her Sec 8 housing

voucher in November after waiting 5 years. She's disabled (seizures) and for 5 years she was homeless -- living with various friends and family members.

[jwirr]

47. Housing vouchers are in shortage in every community in the nation. I could have stayed in my

apartment last year instead of becoming homeless if there had been vouchers available.

[butterfly77]

53. K&R..

[KamaAina]

55. This is becoming SOP

East Point, Ga. near Atlanta had a similar situation a couple of years ago.