Prince Harry in Afghanistan: I fired at enemy

[alp227]

Source: BBC

Prince Harry shot at Taliban insurgents during his time as an Army helicopter pilot in Afghanistan, he says.

The prince, whose five-month deployment to the country has just ended, spoke about his role as an Apache co-pilot gunner, and whether he had killed.

"Yeah, so lots of people have. The squadron's been out here. Everyone's fired a certain amount," he said.

"If there's people trying to do bad stuff to our guys, then we'll take them out of the game."

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21119727

[MrSlayer]

1. That's his job.

It's interesting to see a royal family member doing what the common people do. He's got guts.

[loli phabay]

4. kudos to him for not hiding from his decision to join up.

[TwilightGardener]

10. I agree.

[Fearless]

2. Sad that this is considered something to be proud of by some.

[Jarhead1775]

5. ?

So firing at the enemy before they fire at you is something to not be proud of?

I'm proud to be a Marine. I would really love to have my left leg back. You don't understand combat do you?

[okaawhatever]

6. The only people who truly understand combat are those that have been in it. And no, most civilians

can't comprehend what you go through. It isn't that they don't want to, or that they aren't empathatic, they just can't. My grandfather was 28 years Army WWII, Korea, and 3 tours Vietnam. My dad was Air Force 22 yrs. Vietnam. Brother in law 30 yrs Army, Iraq, Afghanistan. My boyfriend was in the 1st round of the gulf. People can appreciate what you do, try to understand what you do, and empathize with what you do but they'll never really know what you do. That's why you'll always have a special bond with the Marines from your unit, and the thanks of the rest of us Take care of yourself.

[Jarhead1775]

25. Thank you to you and your family.

[kestrel91316]

8. Please accept my apologies for what that jerk said.

No, some people do NOT understand combat or the fact that you swore to obey your superiors when you signed up and sometimes that means killing people.

My dad was a career USAF officer, and while he flew reconnaissance in Nam, I have no doubt he played a role in some enemy deaths. No sense in sugar coating it.

War is a terrible thing. It is always a sign of diplomatic failure. But sometimes it becomes necessary.

Wish you hadn't lost your leg.

[Jarhead1775]

41. Your good people

Thank you and thank your dad for his service.

[kestrel91316]

52. Wish I could. Thanks. He died in 1980 at the ripe old age of 47. His lung cancer probably

had something to do with exposure to fallout from nuclear testing in 1954.

Like I said, war is a terrible thing.

[ronnie624]

55. What a crock.

Each war has a unique set of circumstances, and the one in Afghanistan has nothing to do with "diplomatic failure". It is a direct result of Western imperialism. US intervention in the eighties, is particularly culpable in the current failure of Afghan civil society.

And that other poster said absolutely nothing wrong. US imperialism is the cause of much misery in the world, and anyone who is "proud" of that ugly history, is someone who is an easy target for state propaganda.

[Heimer]

13. Thank you for your service.

From myself, and those of us that didn't serve. Again, THANK YOU.

[Fearless]

15. What is sad is that

We live in a society were war is considered prideful. War isn't something to be proud of nor is firing at others regardless of who shoots first.

You can be proud of defending your country in a just way. You can be proud of saving people's lives. You can be proud of actions taken to prevent conflict and ameliorate it. But to be proud of shooting at people is despicable and wholly evident of one's inability to see the consequences of one's actions.

Who you are and your leg have nothing to do with this conversation. It's a diversion placed into an argument to illicit an emotional response from others and to try to nullify an opposing point of view by suggesting that because of it you are beyond reproach.

And actually, yes, I do understand combat. Using our difference in opinion to suggest that I don't is an ad hominem argument and a logical fallacy in general.

[Jarhead1775]

24. Well

I think I'll just take the high road.... What I stated was to inform that I do understand combat (and consequences), not for emotion.

When you say:

"But to be proud of shooting at people is despicable and wholly evident of one's inability to see the consequences of one's actions. "

You prove you don't understand combat OR war. You call them "people", which is to make others think of "people" just walking down the street. They aren't. They are there to kill you. They have weapons, and will use them against you and your fireteam. That is why we use the term "enemy". I would also like to point out I do have the ability to see the consequences of the actions of firing at the enemy. If we don't fire, we get killed. If we do fire, they get killed.

You sir, have a great day.

[Fearless]

30. They are people whether you like to think about it or not.

They are people with families. People who love and are loved. And you have shown here that you see war as a sort of tactical game, a warped fantasy where the "enemy" is dehumanized and unreal. Life isn't a video game and I wish more people realized that instead of the military's mind-bending version of "enemy".

Have a good day as well.

[Catherina]

66. Of course they're there to kill you. They're defending their family, homes and country.

What do you expect any people to do when there country is invaded by hostile forces that kill their families and steal their resources.

What are hostile invaders doing there in the first place?

You can rest assured that if hostile forces landed in my country and started blowing shit up and massacring people, I'd set out to kill them too.

What other reaction can any thinking person possibly expect? Unless you want to believe the old Rumsfeld canard that they'll greet is with flowers and joy.

[Jarhead1775]

70. ?

"Steal resources"? Please explain.

"Massacring people?" Are you accusing the Americans who are serving in the recent wars of war crimes?

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

81. I think the point trying to be made is;

what circumstances led to you being there to begin with? By you, I mean the American military. Why do we have troops all over the globe? What is the mission of those troops. In boot camp I was taught the history of the Marine Corps and loved those stories. There have been some brave and selfless men in service to our country.
But one day I asked myself, 'why were Marines in China in 1903?? In Nicaragua in 1912?' etc,etc,etc, and I couldn't come up with an answer that made sense. Unless I thought protecting American corporation holdings were important................

[Coyote_Tan]

40. I'm pleased as punch...

... to remove predators from the populace who set bombs targeting civilians, oppress women and girls and use their religion as a means to power and violence.

[Jarhead1775]

42. +++

As we all should be!

[dlwickham]

79. the easiest way to deal with some people

is to simply put them on ignore and go on your way

[Fearless]

45. In a civilized world

We'd focus on strict economic laws favoring the masses over the corporations and tyrants. Focus on unflappable democracy and the ability of every person to be able to vote without fear or duress. And we seek to include all people in the world in those human rights.

A person who is satisfied with their economic position, who feels good about their quality job, and has the opportunity to exercise their basic human freedoms, does not blow things up or oppress others. Those who are ignored, shunned, shot at, abused, harmed, maimed, or otherwise treated poorly do. How many times a year are people killed in wealthy suburbs versus the inner city? In wealth-equal nations versus poverty stricken ones?

That is how you prevent terrorism. Not by guns. Not by shooting each other. By justice. By peace. And by understanding.

[Coyote_Tan]

46. Sometimes...

And sometimes it needs to be settled with arms. Not everyone with money is happy go lucky and willing to let the world go on its merry way.

Most of the assholes doing evil shit are well off and use the folks you talked about as cannon fodder.

If you want to talk about a rainbows and and sunshine world where everyone has what they want and acts in a civilized manner go ahead... But it isn't even a glimmer of a reflection of reality.

[Fearless]

49. If we don't fight for what we want who will?

Do you think that the wealthy and the tyrants will? If we don't, no one will. And it can never happen.

Violence begets violence. I could show you a thousand instances throughout history where this is the case. Peace has never caused violence. Not once.

You cannot create or tout peace while waging war. That is the reality.

[Coyote_Tan]

54. Peace hasn't...

... Because that implies there are no hostile parties.

Pacifism or insufficient force has caused countless atrocities against the weak.

[Fearless]

61. To wit I lead you back to my original statement

War begets war.

[Coyote_Tan]

63. Reality begets war...

Sucks but there it is...

The world is full of violent assholes. Always going to need some violent good guys to deal with them.

[Nihil]

73. You know, that's *just* what the other side say too:

> The world is full of violent assholes. Always going to need some violent good guys to deal with them.

[Coyote_Tan]

74. Probably...

What's your point?

Part of being a man is choosing which things you think are worth fighting or using violence for.

The guys you are talking about chose the repression, pure civilian attacks etc... Etc... Violence for personal benefit.

[Nihil]

75. It's all a matter of perspective ...

> The guys you are talking about chose the repression, pure civilian attacks
> etc... Etc... Violence for personal benefit.

Sorry, it seems hard to work out exactly which side you're talking about here ...

Is it the repression of invading sovereign countries for the financial gain
of a ruling minority, the pure civilian attacks such as missile attacks on
weddings, shooting kids who happen to be on the same road as your vehicle
or the videotaped murder of farmers, people who just happen to be in the wrong
place at the wrong time - not to mention the violence for personal benefit
(i.e., killing for money) - that concerns you?

Or is it the defence against the invaders and the revenge for the pain, suffering
and literally thousands of victims - all who had relatives stirred up by the
tragic events that you dismiss as "worth it" - that you are viewing as
"personal benefit"?

I agree that revenge is a nasty reason to propagate violence but I don't think it
is anything like as nasty a reason as killing for profit, greed & propaganda.

Shame that you cannot recognise that the obscene defence of such behaviour
by the invaders is no more "part of being a man" than killing women & children
simply because you can.

[alphafemale]

50. You believe assholes who stone women to death, because they were raped, care about justice?

Your's would be the first head they hacked off with a dull blade.

[Fearless]

59. People are not born rapists and murderers.

Those personae are created by society.

[Catherina]

67. Well that certainly takes care of the entire warmongering right wing in the US n/t

[Coyote_Tan]

71. Right...

Because a gender pay gap that is closing and more equality and opportunity than ever is the same as wearing cloth over your face for life , remaining mostly illiterate and worrying that some asshole will come throw acid in your or your daughters face...


Nailed it...

[LanternWaste]

53. Might I suggest reading Stud Terkel's 'The Good War - An Oral History of WW2"

Might I suggest reading Stud Terkel's 'The Good War - An Oral History of WW2"? You may get a better understanding of how people think in combat, and why they may or may not feel pride re: things they have done and/or accomplished.


Additionally, who is wise enough to tell me with your emphatic absolutism what we may or may not be proud of within the gray context of conflict? From Euripides to von Clausewitz, this is an area that has been examined from the dawn of written history... I was unaware that the Undeniable Answer was snuck in unawares.

[Fearless]

60. I never said everyone feels proud.

I am speak of those who do feel proud of shooting at people, such as Prince Harry above. People so devoid of reality, it's sickening.

[Le Taz Hot]

19. Thank you for your service.

And no, this civilian could never comprehend what it's like.

[Jarhead1775]

43. Thank you sir

[onwardsand upwards]

21. War is a racket

Major General Smedley Butler, of the U. S. Marine Corps, summed it up, when he said this:

“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”

It's horribly sad that good men and women get swept up and mangled in the criminal activity that we call "war". The real enemies are not the brave soldiers on either side, but the corporate gangsters that bribe politicians to make the military act as their henchmen.

[Jarhead1775]

23. Great Quote

Smedley Butler was a great man, and I agree with your synopsis.

I served because it is a tradition in my family. "Every male must serve their country before serving themselves" is the saying. It doesn't mean you have to agree with the reason your Commander in Chief sends you somewhere, but do it with honor.

[onwardsand upwards]

39. Thank you

A very honorable tradition.

The world needs people who are willing to make a sacrifice and, from what you've said, you and your family have made huge ones.

It is against this standard of honor and sacrifice that politicians, around the world, should be held.

Not coming from a military tradition, as a civilian, it's my duty to fight to hold them to that standard.

Smedley Butler was a great man, with the courage both to fight and to speak the truth as he saw it. (Someone should make a movie about him.) It sounds as though you, and your family, share that tradition.

[Politicub]

47. Thank you for your service

[Threedifferentones]

58. The problem with being a soldier is that you give up what is supposedly our most cherished ideal.

Funny, in order to fight for freedom you have to rescind your own. Was the reason you were sent in to battle honest and just? Or, did it serve mostly to make money for our leaders at the expense of everyone else, like the Bush wars? Fighting in an unnecessary and dishonest war is not good or honorable, which is why I would never put myself in a position to let some greedy fucking pig like W. tell me who and when to kill.

[Londoncalling]

76. My Grandfather killed people when he fought

The Battle Of Britain and yes I am proud of the service he gave....Prince Harry went to a warzone and did not ask for special treatment and did his job like everyone else the is Helmand and like my Grandfather he will have to live with what he did and the horrors he saw.
Including seeing the Taliban shoot a 7 year old girl.

[Fearless]

82. You are proud that he protected people

Not proud that he shot people. There is a nuance there.

[Londoncalling]

83. I don't think his acts where evil

and protecting people meant shooting Nazi planes out of the sky, that was the nature of The Battle Of Britain and I am proud
that my grandfather fought. I had another grandfather who no doubt killed people after he landed in France on D-Day.
He survived into his 70s, while the men next to him died. He shot and killed Nazi's, it is want they were required to do when they joined
up.

[Fearless]

84. I did not say protecting people was evil

I said glorifying and being proud of shooting people is. No doubt, he was not joyful that he had to shoot people.

[jsr]

3. Give him a statue next to Lord Nelson

Such incredible death defying bravery.

[DollarBillHines]

7. Bingo!

What a fucking joke.

[loli phabay]

9. i think the squaddies he flew air support for will probuably buy him a beer i know i would.

[hughee99]

33. It's funny that people always complain that "rich people" support the war but don't have children in

the military. Chicken-hawks they are called. "If they believe in this war so much why don't THEY fight or THEIR children join the military"... then when one of them does, they are ridiculed for that too.

[Londoncalling]

77. Yeap and this one is a Prince

third in line to the throne.....Last time he was in Afghanistan he was accused of being privelegded and protected.
This time is was very much at the heart of the action and the press distort his words and make him look like
a thug.

[Hugabear]

11. "People trying to do bad stuff to our guys" - this is why we FAIL

The "bad stuff" he refers to is simply people defending their country against an occupying invader.

If the North Koreans (or insert any other boogeyman du jour) were occupying parts of California, I'm pretty damned sure that we'd be fighting back any way we could.

How easily we forget that WE are the invaders in this situation, that WE are the "bad guys" in their eyes.

[xtraxritical]

12. Exactly. The "heros" that enlist for this crap are the problem.

[JoeyT]

16. Yeah, that's why there are ultra-patriotic movies about just this thing.

WOOOOOOLVERIIIINES!

[Hugabear]

32. Actually you are the one who doesn't know what you're talking about

So we invade a foreign country, and when the people we're invading fight back, that makes them the bad guys?

Really?

[xtraxritical]

35. Thank you for your thoughtfulness and sanity, Albert Einstein thanks you too!

[Politicub]

48. +1

[cstanleytech]

27. I have a jaded view of the military (the navy in this case) for the most part due to them

being unwilling to assist in locating my alchohlic father for my mother when we were small children in order for him to be served with papers to pay child support thus forcing our mother to struggle raising us on welfare after he abandoned us but that aside I most respectfully disagree with you about your comment.
Those who join and serve with honor are heroes just like someone who joins the police, becomes a school teacher, a doctor or nurse in the ER not to mention the fire department and serves with honor is a hero.
Heroes are everyday people willing to sacrifice their lives to do the best job they can with as much honor as they can.

[xtraxritical]

34. You certainly make the word hero meaningless.

[Politicub]

51. Are you posting from a dorm room?

You sound like an ill-informed college student. I was many years ago, too, and made some blanket statements that were immature in hindsight.

Not that there's anything wrong with idealism, but with age (hopefully) comes a bit of wisdom. The world isn't so black and white and you can learn a lot from people who were in the trenches.

I learned that men and women in uniform are some of the most courageous people in the world. Whether I agree with war or not doesn't matter. Blown off limbs and PSTD aren't a respecter of persons.

Agitate to change things if you're unhappy with the military or disagree with the state of things.

But don't insult our American men and women in uniform. It doesn't make you look thoughtful or informed to criticize the people in the military - it just makes you sound like an asshole.

[xtraxritical]

86. Oh "yes sir", "sir".

[Katorama]

38. I cannot agree more. The Afghan invasion was all about the Trans Afghan Pipeline.

Once we leave, the country will be plunged into years and years of more war and instability. So tragic.

[Catherina]

68. Thank you n/t

[Katorama]

17. Well that was bloody brilliant.

Sure it's his job, but I'm pretty sure every ginger-haired squaddy is going to be targeted a little more heavily now.

[Selatius]

20. He wouldn't be there if the Taliban were shooting down Apaches like they were Mi-24 Hinds.

Then again, the Mujahadeen were using American-supplied stinger missiles to blow up helicopters.

[onwardsand upwards]

22. Tally ho!

I guess fox hunting is illegal now, and the royals have to get their jollies somewhere.

[soft_eyes]

28. Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team)

[Fearless]

31. Amen!

[olddad56]

26. defending YOUR country is one thing, illegally invading SOMEONE ELSEs country is quite another.

[andypandy]

29. illigal?

any chance of any kind of legal sinopsis, or even juducial judgement as to why Afghanistanis is illegal, or is this just more of the intellectually bankprupt 'i don't like it, so i'll call it illegal and hope that if i use that word people will believe it, rather than actually look at the strength, or not, of my political argument'?

no, thought perhaps not...

[reorg]

36. doing your homework

I found the: synopsis you asked for.

[Democrats_win]

37. Let the playboy prince eat dung.

This palace playboy goes off to kill people. The thoughts that it's good the kids of the rich do get a taste combat are appropriate, but there is still something very wrong here. Yeah the Taliban is evil but the british throne is equally evil. This prick who never worked a day in his life gets off his polo horse and goes to kill people in a war that isn't his right to fight.

It is truly time that the extremely wealthy be given a taste of Mao's cultural revolution. Take prince harry out to the farms and make him eat cow dung for years to show how totally worthless he and his rich class really is to humanity. The time is past for the rich to pay, let them eat dung. (BTW, Mao's cultural revolution was terrible and wrong, but for today's rich, quite appropriate.)

[Londoncalling]

78. Prince Harry's job

is to co-pilot helicopters, he has worked very hard to do what he does. It is a war that whether we like it or not the British are fighting and dying for.|He did the job he was asked to do, he could have refused but he stuck with his platoon. The British Royal family right now are very much loved in our country, especially when our political leaders are basically all the same, rich and are funded by the tax payer so they can have two homes and free lunches. They are the ones that are out of touch.
The problems we have with the rich are not the Royal family, they aren't bankers, they don't work on hedgefunds, they haven't pushed up the prices of staples such as wheat and corn, so the poorest starve. Nor are they politicians wanting a massive pay rise while cutting benefits and they pay taxes too. Speaking for my country we do not want a revolution and to become like China.. Mao's revolution is repressive, in the UK at the Paraympics we booed our own government leaders when they gave out medals, we are free to do that. Nobody was arrested, could that happen in the revolution you suggest.

[Nihil]

85. Good post.

> especially when our political leaders are basically all the same, rich and are funded
> by the tax payer so they can have two homes and free lunches. They are the ones
> that are out of touch.
> The problems we have with the rich are not the Royal family, they aren't bankers,
> they don't work on hedgefunds, they haven't pushed up the prices of staples such
> as wheat and corn, so the poorest starve. Nor are they politicians wanting a massive
> pay rise while cutting benefits and they pay taxes too.

Excellent summary - thanks!

[CountAllVotes]

44. Goody for you rich royal one

N/T

[Ken Burch]

56. At them, or NEAR them?

A number of studies have shown that, in combat, most soldiers, on whatever side they're on, actually fire OVER the heads of the people their shooting at...it's not a natural thing, even among(and perhaps especially among)people in uniform to kill easily or without qualms.

And, in a way, Harry's in a no-win-situation here:

If he joins the fight, there's the possibility that he might actually kill somebody.

If he stays away from the fight, he looks like he's shirking his royal duties.

You don't get to be a C.O. if you're in line for the throne.

[CrawlingChaos]

57. He said killing Afghans is like playing a video game

Here's an exact quote from the prince:

“It’s a joy for me because I’m one of those people who loves playing PlayStation and Xbox," the 28-year-old said. "So with my thumbs I like to think I’m probably quite useful."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/taliban-prince-harry-144857323.html

And yet we have people here cheering him on.

[Catherina]

65. +1 It's absolutely disgusting n/t

[Londoncalling]

80. Not all of what he said

He meant that he has great reflexes, for firing which is what he and everyone he fought beside is required to do.....The game he loved played is Fifa which is fantasy Soccer... I would think many of those in combat have a way of detaching themselves from what they have to do and what they see....He has spoken in more depth since then about that.

[dynasaw]

62. Harry is an Idiot

This is the guy who couldn't figure out why going to a party dressed as Hitler or
posing minus clothes isn't very tasteful. War isn't like video games and he should have kept his big mouth shut.
I find him plain offensive. Another over privileged kid who has boundary problems. The royals ought to lock
him up somewhere.

[Arkana]

64. Uh...good for him?

[panzerfaust]

69. Duh: He is serving in the armed forces in a war-zone.

[Zoeisright]

72. Oh, for Christ's sake.

War is NOT honorable. Killing people is NOT honorable.

I do not blame soldiers for their actions, but lauding their actions as heroic is sick.

Everyone on this thread needs to see "The Americanization of Emily". Glorification of war throughout human history is one of the biggest stains on humanity.