Catholics hear anti-Obama letter in church

[IDemo]

January 30, 2012 12:13 PM

During church services on Sunday, Catholics around the country were read a blistering letter assailing the Obama administration for an "assault on religious liberty" in the form of a coming requirement that most church-linked organizations - among them hospitals, schools and universities - offer birth control coverage as part of their health care plans.

Despite strong lobbying from religious groups, the Health and Human Services Department announced earlier this month that most church-linked groups will not be exempt from the requirements - which also mandate that no co-pay be charged for contraceptive services - though they will have an extra year to comply beyond the August 1 deadline. Churches themselves (along with any other employer that is explicitly focused on offering a religious message, and which primarily employs those who believe in that message) are exempt from the requirement.

Religious groups were outraged by the decision - saying it forced employers at church-linked organizations to violate their conscience - and on Sunday Catholic leaders took their complaints directly to parishioners. As Business Insider reported, similar letters were read in churches around the country complaining that "the Obama Administration has cast aside the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, denying to Catholics our Nation's first and most fundamental freedom, that of religious liberty."

In an appearance on "CBS This Morning" Monday, Republican presidential candidate Newt Gingrich brought up the letters, using them as an opportunity to attack both the Obama administration and Republican rival Mitt Romney.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-57368259-503544/catholics-hear-anti-obama-letter-in-church/

[Lifelong Protester]

1. Why I had to quit going to mass

sorry to say, it was the pro-W stuff stuck under my wiper blade while attending Saturday mass. I knew it wasn't going to get better...

[pamela]

16. We should do the same thing.

In 2004, Jim Wallace's organization Sojourners, put out a great, printable flyer that really spelled out in religious terms how the Dem platform was more in line with Christ's teaching. I started a thread about it on the Kerry forum and I think here, too and...nothing. No responses. It would have been a perfect way to cheaply and easily reach a large audience of people who vote. I printed a bunch out and took them to some local churches and gave them to religious friends and family members.

It's silly to cede religious folks to the Repubs. Obama won the Catholic vote last time and I know lots of Catholics that want to vote Democratic but get so much pressure to vote Repub. My parents are very religious and they voted for Kerry and Obama. They really appreciate the Sojourners stuff I give them because they get bombarded with crap from the other side.

There are lots of good religious folks, like my parents, who truly follow Christ's teaching. They volunteer at soup kitchens, visit and help the sick and donate to the poor. It frustrates me that we don't make more of an effort to reach out to these folks.

[saras]

41. The religious need to take these arguments to their ministers and their church's board of directors

There's no reason to put up with a church pushing right-wing values on you unless the membership as a whole supports those values, in which case you might look for another church anyways.

[TEF]

56. Exactly...........but

There's no "membership" required in the Catholic church. There are, however, certain values and traditions parishoners are expected to uphold, just like any other religion. What is a "right-wing" church?

[Galraedia]

96. The Church of Satan

[boppers]

150. Please don't associate the GOP with satanism.

We have standards.

[AlbertCat]

168. What is a "right-wing" church?

Oh please!

Don't act like you don't get it.



TAX THE CHURCHES!

Then maybe they can complain

[liberalnationalist]

203. Tax em right out of existence

Organized religion has outlived any usefulness it might have once had...organized religion is organized insanity

[Tx4obama]

108. 2006: Sen Obama’s “Call to Renewal” speech at Sojourners’ Conference in DC

Video of Speech and transcript here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1017777

[pamela]

147. Thanks for the link!

[hedgehog]

2. I didn't hear that Sunday - but then my parish is pretty much Vatican II!

My guess is that for every Catholic upset because the bishops will have to provide full health care coverage for their employees, you'll find many, many more upset because the Girl Scouts are being tossed from the premises!

(BTW - we had Girl Scouts selling cookies after Mass, with the pastor proudly noting how many boxes had been donated to the Food Pantry last year!)

[gratuitous]

17. Don't confuse a bit of good prejudice with inconvenient facts

This isn't the place for facts that get in the way of some broad-brush painting of an entire group. You start distinguishing one group of people of faith from another, and some people get all confuzzled. It's so much easier to just let the blanket condemnations roll out, and if you happen to be the target, you're supposed to just take it because . . . well, never mind the because.

At least, that's my understanding of our faultless DU jury decisions.

[CountAllVotes]

37. I couldn't agree more!

We have a new priest at my church and he is a LIBERAL. He condemns violence, has come out against what he called WWIII not long ago (when we invaded Libya ...).

He is a fair man with a good mind and I have a lot of respect for him. I even went to Mass on Xmas eve to pray for others.

To read this, you'd think every Catholic out there believes this way and it is simply not true. NO.

[brooklynite]

72. So, then, he's not Catholic...

You can argue that he's moral and Christian, but if he's not following the orders of the head guy in a Church built on obedience to hierarchical leadership...I don't think you get to redefine how the church defines itself.

[CountAllVotes]

101. wtf?

[Guy Montag]

82. 98 percent of Catholic women use or have used birth control including abortions

Birth control adds to a woman's sense of and actual control of their lives and future, and the Catholic Church is mean spirited and myopic to an extreme on this issue.

They once burned people at the stake for being heretics if they were not Christian, so as they have changed for the better in stopping the murder of people like myself for not believing in Christianity, of that a Christ even existed, they can grow up, smell the coffee and use common sense in changing to better reflect the reality of the issue.

I was forced to go to religious instruction and church when I was young because my parents were Catholic, but I am very proud to say I never bought the bill of goods concerning this religion -- and other religions that are there solely to manage human populations, not preserve, protect and value all living things.

It is a shame I was submitted to the pouring of the toilet water on my head as a baby called a baptism, as had I had informed consent, i would not have let them do that ridiculous 'sacrament' with me as an unwilling participant.

The Catholic Church should be more concerned with how papal Bulls such as The Doctrine of Discovery' issued in 1452 by Pope Nicholas V. (http://ili.nativeweb.org/sdrm_art.html)

It has directly been responsible for genocide and murder of many people in this hemisphere and elsewhere in the world during and after the so called "Age of Discovery."

Maybe if the Catholic Church was a wee bit more repentant for their role in many crimes against humanity, it would be easier to take them more seriously with this contrived and myopic posture they engage in concerning birth control.

[whathehell]

116. I don't believe abortion is viewed by most women as a form of "birth control". n/t

[PassingFair]

119. How else would you classify it?

It IS a form of birth control.

[whathehell]

157. A "last resort" form of it, maybe

Not something that's regularly practiced as such....Doctors have been known to

STRONGLY discourage those who would do so.

[Guy Montag]

176. Four out of ten women who get involved with an accidental pregnancy get abortions.

And if people like the bloody Catholics would encourage people to use family planning tools such as birth control that help prevent the loss of control of a woman's life and future that unplanned pregnancies cause, there would be less of a need for so many abortions.

I don't see the Catholic Church as anything more than part of the problem causing so many abortions as they fight many of the solutions. Because of people like them, abortion should remain a legal and easy alternative to unwanted pregnancies.

Women who become pregnant who don't want kids at that time or ever often drink, or do other things that hurt the child duting the prenatal period, and often the lives of the children are hurt because the mother -- and others she is related to -- cannot afford to care properly for them, as they have not gotten the education they need for a high enough paying job to provide for the children's security and future.

The Catholic Church is an infuriatingly anti-life entity that just works to control and subjugate women. It cares about patriarchy and the male dominance of the human species far more than it cares aout human life.

[whathehell]

190. As has been stated, 98% of Catholic women in America already PRACTICE birth control,

so apparently the "bloody Catholics" who are preaching AGAINST the use of birth control

aren't having much effect, are they?

When you find that the "four out of ten women" with an accidental pregnancies getting abortions are Catholic,

you can show me the stats....Until then, your rant is off point and of no interest to me.

[PassingFair]

177. The poster said "including abortions"...

not "only abortions" or "frequent abortions".

Please read it again.

[whathehell]

188. You read it again..

That is my take on the matter...Sorry if you don't like it, but ignore is your friend.

[PassingFair]

191. I did read it again.

The poster was clear about what he said.

You can "take it" any way you like.

I don't ignore people.

[whathehell]

193. Then read this as many times as needed:

I was ALSO clear about what I said so if you

still have a problem with it, I can't help

you and have nothing more to say.

Now, please have a nice day

and remember that I do ignore people.

Goodbye

[PassingFair]

199. Well at least THAT'S over.

Relief!

[whathehell]

204. I was ready for it to be over awhile ago!

[Tippy]

174. Couldn"t agree with you more....

[Arugula Latte]

195. To me, it doesn't matter if your own particular church/priest is liberal

If you support the Catholic Church by sitting in their pews and putting coins in their plates you are supporting the corrupt, vile Vatican and an institution that is determined to keep women and gays in their places and cover up messy stories like child rape.

[CountAllVotes]

196. How do you know that I give them money?

And what does it matter to YOU?

[Arugula Latte]

200. Because the leadership of the Catholic Church is malevolent, and imposes itself

on our political system and systems around the world. It promotes bigotry and misogyny and seeks to curtail the freedom of women and gays. It covers up child rapes. It rails against birth control, and overpopulation affects everyone. And yet "liberals" continue to go to that miserable institution (and believe me, it's not the only miserable religious institution out there -- LDS leadership and the Baptist Church leadership are also vile, among many others).

If you sit in their pews, you are tacitly supporting these values and this system.

[liberalnationalist]

202. I agree

the Catholic church and the evangelicals are vile.
sitting in their pews and putting money in the plate is supporting them, not only their religious views but their facist unamerican political agenda!

stay out of the churches, do not attend them, do not support them, ignore them..if everyone would just quit going to church, them and the problems they bring would all go away

how can anyone be catholic after the child rape, and how can anyone be evangelical after all the scandals in those churches also.....organized religion is dope for stupid people

[CountAllVotes]

205. How do you know that I give them money?

You never answered this question. You spew a bunch of hyperbole and that is all.

HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT I GIVE THEM MONEY? Do I have some sort of a tracking system that tells you how much I spend and on what?

As for the rest of your claims, how do you know that I "sit I their pews"?

You know nothing about me so find someone else to dump your hatred upon.

[emilyg]

134. I didn't hear any letter read

this Sunday. Agree with you 100%. It gets tiresome.

[Brigid]

21. This is the first I've heard of it.

I went to Mass yesterday, and nothing like that happened.

[TEF]

57. Same here....

I attended mass at two different churches Sunday. No such letter was mentioned during mass I attended, nor mentioned by anyone else from different mass times.

[DallasNE]

55. There Is A Separation

The religious function, such as the church itself, is exempt from the rules as it always has been. This applies only to the business functions of the church such as hospitals where employees of all denominations frequently work.

[VWolf]

3. Religion and common sense are immiscible n/t

[msanthrope]

4. I was told Obama was gonna cave on this, on this very website. nt

[Zoeisright]

5. Tax churches.

If they are going to get political, they need to start paying taxes. It makes me sick, seeing these huge churches where people sit to feel smug and superior, while the money it costs to build and run those buildings could actually help people.

As Jesus commanded.

[alp227]

14. +++! I bet many of the attendees oppose welfare for po' folk yet have no problem with church welfare

[southernyankeebelle]

19. No I don't think that is so at all. Many catholics support birth control medications. We don't

give a shit what some cardinal or bishop says. They aren't the ones who have to raise children they can't afford to. My own sister is a strong believer yet she took birth control like many of us have and will continue to do. As soon as any religion interferes with any type of birth control medication you will see men and women going against it. That is why this parenthood mission the republicans are on will never pass. I think we have many more liberal democrats then the pope, cardinals and bishops want to realize.

[The Wielding Truth]

53. Many women take birth control to correct gynecological problems.

[southernyankeebelle]

64. Yes that is true also.

[boppers]

151. Those are called "hormones".

Think about that for a second.

[southernyankeebelle]

152. True.

[barbtries]

6. aren't they disallowed from practicing politics?

i wish there was an organization dedicated to getting politically active "churches" on the tax rolls.

[zbdent]

11. Only if it's in the form of not demonizing a Democrat/liberal ...

when it's worshipping or praising a Republican ... the church is not punished.

[TEF]

86. Funny stuff!

That's hilarious, and believed by so many.

[Gman]

7. They didn't say one word about it in our church

DOn't know how widespread this was. I suspect it wasn't much.

[bulloney]

8. If Catholics don't agree with the birth control benefits, then don't use them.

The RCC may be surprised to learn that an overwhelming majority of Catholics in the U.S. use birth control. Our priest always throws out the "cafeteria Catholic" canard when news like that comes out. He argues that Catholics must follow all teachings handed from the church, or you're not a Catholic.

I seem to remember a religion whose people blindly followed everything its leaders told them. Does the name Jonestown bring up any images?

[Rambis]

9. Tax exempt status?

This is not the first time and it will not be the last that the church will do something like this. Last time it was the judges who were appointed by a republican governor but supported gay marriage. The literature circulated even upset conservatives within the catholic church here in Iowa. The judges were defeated but it has caused some rifts within the already hopeless teathug party formerly known as the GOP.

[thecrow]

24. If they don't comply, then tax them.

Seems like a fair trade .

[hack89]

51. They are not even close to jeopardizing their tax exempt status

If they did it every weekend and dedicated significant funds for political purposes then they would have issues.

[Rambis]

58. Last time I was there they passed a special plate for Dan Quayle

pro life fund along with a 45 minute sermon-

[Bonhomme Richard]

10. I don't get it. Are they afraid if they provided the coverage....

that their pious employees would take advantage of birth control? If their employees are true Catholics, their definition of true Catholic, then what are they afraid of? Then again, what about God giving you free will to make mistakes.

[zbdent]

12. So ... they're okay with saying how the government spends their money ...

("taxpayer" money, not the "church's" money, since they're exempt)

but the government isn't allowed to say that there are limitations on how the church spends the taxpayer money?

Seems hypocritical ...

[Skittles]

70. religion is all about hypocrisy

[onehandle]

13. 'around the country,' huh? I talked to three Catholics from three churches and none heard it. nt

[HuckleB]

15. This is the 21st Century. Health care should be focused on creating best practices via science.

Belief systems that are derived out of nowhere have no place in health care. The Catholic Church does not want to provide the best health care that can be provided. Further, it wants to use politics to keep that health care from those whom it can. That is the truly oppressive act in this story.

Ugh.

[Beer Snob-50]

18. WENT TO MASS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN A YEAR YESTERDAY

(a mass for a friend who had died a year ago) and that was the sermon i had. i walked out of something like that a previous time and my other friends were awaiting the same thing again (my wife asked me to please just sit there as the mass was for our friend).

my problem is that where was the church when the republican admin was killing innocents both american and otherwise in the invasion of iraq. did not seem very pro-life to me i guess if you have reached puberty and have dark skin you are not really a life worth defending.

[liberal N proud]

20. The solution to these groups problems - TAXATION!

These organizations should be taxed for all the money they take in. If they want to play politics, they should pay to play.


I would have gotten up in the middle of the Mass and walked out!, I have done that when things get political in church and it partly the reason that I have not gone with the exception of Christmas and Easter for a couple of years.

[HuckleB]

23. +1,000,000,000,000

[Magoo48]

26. Taxing churches would be a good start.....

[cstanleytech]

29. They already are taxed if they try to play in politics

I thought? But setting that aside what exactly would you want to tax on them? The property on which the church itself sits or just say purely income properties the church may own?

[Critters2]

139. hen 501c3's lose their tax exempt status, they end up paying property taxes.

I usually defend churches' right to speak without worrying about tax exempt revocation. But this crosses a line. When they mention a partisan politician in an election year, they're campaigning. The law does not allow non-profits to engage in this behavior. Churches where this letter was read should start paying taxes.

[cstanleytech]

185. Note: Never post on a forum when you wake up without first drinking a cup of coffee or two !!!!

Because when you come back and reread it you end up having a "WTF!!" moment like I just did and you then have to self delete your post.

[Critters2]

187. Curiosity officially piqued!

[cstanleytech]

189. LOL

[emilyg]

135. Unrec. - broadbrush.

[richmwill]

22. One of the reasons why I stopped attending church

Once they became political vehicles, that was it for me. I left the Catholic church years ago, later on started attending a Pentecostal church that was fine for a few years until the pastor started really pushing hardcore-Conservative points in his sermons which had never been done before.

I still believe in God, I still pray, I still try to live my life as good and best I can. And to me, that's all I need to do.

[EC]

25. I'm Catholic

and I ignored the church on birth control. Every single Catholic woman I know uses the pill, so the church really isn't relevent to normal people in family planning.


I always felt it was about congregation growth, keeping themselves relevent. But they lost many younger generations because they wouldn't approve the pill.

[ehrnst]

27. When religion collides with public health policy...

it becomes "religious persecution."

[iamtechus]

28. The church apparently considers WAR CRIMES to be less offensive. /nt

[cstanleytech]

31. Well....considering alot of said war crimes were either commited in the name of a religion and or by

the religious organizations themselves its hardly surprising that they would avoid talking about it when they can, I mean heck look at how they have avoided really dealing with the pedophile priest problem and tended to move them from one arch diocese to another to cover it up.

[pnwmom]

111. Not "the church." The hierarchy.

There's a major difference. The laity, not the hierarchy, comprises the vast majority of Catholics.

[atreides1]

115. Okay

But what did the majority of the laity do? I don't recall any news stories of how the laity stood up to the hierarchy when this scandal finally surfaced!

If you have some links showing how the laity came to the defense of those abused, I'd love to see them!

[Heathen57]

30. The arrogance of the Bishops

is intolerable. If they don't wish to participate, they are exempt for the most part. What they are pushing for is to make the rest of the nation follow their rules.

As I had said elsewhere, the Church should just come out and form a PAC. That way they could legally campaign for a candidate or party. As it is, they are constantly in danger of losing their 501(C)3 status.

Something along this topic, the National Organization for Marriage (NOM) refuses, even under court order, to produce their donation list. I wonder if they won't because the RCC is the major funder and if it comes out the whole organization could lose their tax status?

[Hugabear]

32. Remove their tax-exempt status NOW

Churches are supposed to be neutral when it comes to politics, and not using their position to influence their followers.

We all know this happens on a routine basis - especially in fundamentalist-type churches. If they insist on meddling, then they need to have their tax-exempt status revoked.

[ehrnst]

34. They only have to be neutral concerning endorsements of specific candidates.

They can talk about issues or specific legislation all they want.

When they get into endorsing or opposing a candidate, then it's in violation of tax code.

[ZombieHorde]

71. According to the OP, they are opposing President Obama. nt

[ehrnst]

113. They are opposing an action of the Obama administration

Which is supporting the legislation that congress passed.

My church opposed the war in Iraq, which was spearheaded by GWB, and we looked into that - and that was still considered within the realm of social justice, and was not considered endorsement of any opponent of GWB during an election year.

Now, if we were to encourage congregants to sign a petition to recall a politician, that would run afoul of our tax status - or if we were state that to vote or to oppose a particular candidate or party in an upcoming election was preferable, that would run afoul. But criticizing the actions of a politician, or legislation is indeed within the realm of social justice.

During the 2008 elections, we were VERY aware that services were being recorded by Right Wingers that wanted to trap us in a misstatment.

[patrice]

102. But if they talk about those issues & specific legislation in an extremely selective way, how are we

to trust that they are NOT being political? Doesn't the fact that they avoid certain kinds of open discussion prove that they ARE being political?

Specific memes corelate with specific demographics which corelate to specific, PREDICTABLE, voting patterns. I realize that none of that is cause and effect, but it IS strong corelation.

If ALL sides/moral-reasoning in a question are not presented and the church's moral position extracted from that empirically WHOLE question, if ONLY one side is presented, ONLY one conclusion, why should we consider that anything other than, at minimum, prejudice, prejudice that requires power to sustain it against the actual truth, power which inevitably and intrinsically has political factors?

If (the rhetorical) you believe you have THE Truth, why would that Truth not stand up to an honest open and full discussion of the WHOLE empirical issue, all sides of it? Doesn't belief in the Truth mean that you know that Truth will withstand ANY error in the discourse? Wouldn't you want to present right AND wrong BECAUSE that reveals THE Truth that you believe you apprehend? Doesn't avoiding the WHOLE (both, any, all sides of a) question prove that you suspect that what you claim is THE Truth will not sustain itself???? . . . so what you really want is power to maintain and defend something that you apparently do not REALLY believe is True in the first place. . . and power IS political in nature.

[ehrnst]

112. There is a difference between political and supporting a candidate

My UU church has justice task forces - against the death penalty, pro-choice, etc.

Those are not considered campaigning, even if one political party has a platform that is opposed to that.

[Critters2]

140. This crosses the line. They spoke against a candidate for elective office.

Time to start yanking some 501c(3)s.

[ehrnst]

163. They said nothing about voting - only to petition against the legislation.

Their lawyers clearly vetted this letter.

Obama is a sitting politician as well as one that will be running for office.

Believe me - at my UU church, we criticized many, many things that the Bush administration did, and were very clear on what was and was not permissible to say during an election year. We are in the DC area, and knew that we were being watched by Right Wingers.

We could tell people to write their elected officials - including the President - to oppose the war in Iraq. We could mention the administration's actions concerning social justice issues. We could talk about our policies in third world countries and what it was doing to their populations. The church could encourage people to vote, and even help in voter registration drives.

We could NOT call for impeachment. We could NOT encourage people to call for impeachment.

To say that a sitting politician is signing legislation that is onerous to you is not campaigning. Neither is impelling them to sign a petition to overturn such legislation.

[onenote]

179. +1

[sinkingfeeling]

33. Then, I'm sure that all Catholics will decline the coverage for birth control. The law

requires the Catholic employeers to offer birth control, but forces no one to use it!

[Beer Snob-50]

35. I was just reading the head of hhs's memo on the rules

and it seems that religious hospitals still do not have to provide those services...yes, your health insurance has to have that provision in it, but the catholic hospital does not have to provide those services.

at least that is how i read it.

[Politicalboi]

36. Hey Catholics

Did you know some of your priests molested young boys, and the higher ups hid it for YEARS including the Lizard King himself the Poop. I was raised Catholic, and I can't believe they even have "followers" anymore. Oh and take away the tax breaks for the church of perverts too. I wish some Occupiers would sit in the pews, and ask these perverts about the lies they told for years, and that they are not suppose to be in the political business. I HATE religion.

[Beer Snob-50]

39. I find it disheartening that every time the Catholic church is mentioned in a post

the molestation card is thrown out. Yes, it pissed me off as a Catholic as well (and it has been a while since I went regularly to Mass), but I realize that many in the church are good people who do much good for society.

Chruch leaders fucked up royally with this abuse scandel and made it worse, but most of those under them have done much good for society.

[HuckleB]

40. Why distract from the actual issue with a red herring like that?

[CountAllVotes]

43. because ...

Just because is why.

Nothing else left to do but bash Catholics and the Catholic Church.

[_ed_]

156. You make me laugh

"Bash" Catholics? Are you trying to say that the Catholic Church didn't coverup the systemic, widespread rape of young children?

When you put money in your collection plate, it's being used to pay off the victims of child abuse and rape. Billions of dollars.

But, yeah, it's much worse if you feel bad about your little religion.

[CountAllVotes]

175. My religion is not your concern

Just because I state that I went to Mass does not necessarily mean that I am Catholic, that I believe in Catholicism, or anything else for that matter.

You know nothing about me and how I believe.

You make me quite sick and you are a fool for being prejudiced against people like myself that happens to attend Mass once in a great while.

[_ed_]

192. Well, I'll sleep well tonight

knowing that I don't associate with a worldwide organization that has repeatedly covered up child rape for its members, that has demonized gay and lesbian people, that holds women as second-class citizens, and is led by a hateful old queen who led the aforementioned coverup of child rape.

[CountAllVotes]

194. Quit talking about people you do not know

If this thread was about any other "group", this whole thread would be locked. As I said before, you know nothing about me nor what I believe in.

[_ed_]

197. Nonsense

Religion is a choice, a set of ideas that are subject to factual criticism. Being gay, which the Catholic church demonizes, is not a choice and is a fundamental facet of humanity.

You CHOOSE to fill the pews of a Catholic Church. No gay person chooses their orientation. Stop pretending that your religious choices are any more sacred than favoring supply-side economics or being pro-environment. You can't just cry foul when others factually criticize the organizations and ideas you support because the set of ideas in question happen to derive from religious thinking.

You're right: I don't know what you specifically hold in your mind. But, I do know that you admitted to going to a Catholic Church. Unless you were protesting Prop 8, I'll withhold the right to criticize your support of the Catholic church. I think it is a fact that the Catholic Church is a hate group.

I also noticed that you didn't address the church's anti-gay, anti-woman, and anti-science stances. You just cried foul and asked that the argument end because your precious little "beliefs" were in play. Sorry, you don't get to exclude certain "beliefs" from scrutiny because you lump them under the umbrella of "religion."

[CountAllVotes]

198. You know nothing about me

Take your hate and direct it at someone else would you?

[patrice]

75. Hate. Others hope for HONEST reform and, ergo, the universal blessing of LIFE-giving freedom. nt

[libinnyandia]

38. A lot of people don't know that a commission appointed by the Vatican had

recommended that contraception be allowed but the Pope rejected their findings.

[naaman fletcher]

133. I hadn't heard that

do you have a link?

[libinnyandia]

165. Google pontifical commission on birth control

[naaman fletcher]

166. thanks

[silverweb]

42. Talk about turning the truth on its head!

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]"...it forced employers at church-linked organizations to violate their conscience."

Nooooooo, it would force employers to violate their conscience if it was mandated that they personally or members of their immediate family had to purchase or take some form of birth control.

This is the same bullshit argument that the fundies use to claim it is their "religious liberty" at stake when they are told they're not allowed to harass, abuse, and discriminate against gays.

Bottom line
(1) If you don't believe in contraception, then don't use it; that's your religious freedom.
(2) Every other person has exactly the same freedom as you to make their own choice; that's their religious freedom, which you have no right to dictate.

[patrice]

46. They don't understand what rights are: If you have right x, then I have it too; if I don't have

right x, then neither do you, and if you don't have it, then neither do I.

That's what makes "a right" a right.

[silverweb]

48. They understand it just fine.

[font color="navy" face="Verdana"]They're just trying to maintain dictatorial authority. It's what they do.

[patrice]

44. PRIVATE standards being FORCED upon the use of PUBLIC dollars! The use of birth-control is a CHOICE.

Sheeesh! And people talk about "coercive government"!!!!

[freshwest]

45. Bull! They are asking freedom to discriminate against taxpayers who don't adhere to their beliefs.

When they agree to leave their place at the public trough taking taxpayer funds from Medicare, Medicaid and other programs they currently count on the taxpayer's money to perform Christ's work on Earth, they'll have the right to deny.

But none of their charitable institutions refuse tax money from non-believers. Their parishioners's tithes do not cover the cost of their activities in terms of public health or social services.

Until then, they are part of the public realm of services and they don't get to have it both ways.

For doing this, they should have their tax exemption revoked for interfering in the legal activities of a secular government.

They are the ones who misinterpreted the meaning of the First Amendment.

I hope many people come out against this overreach of church authority, as it is dishonest and discriminatory.

[davidthegnome]

47. Not here

Asked a couple of friends, apparently that speech wasn't given here. I'm sure there are plenty of red states and red towns where it was given, but it's hardly a Nation-wide event.

I stopped going to church years ago, I no longer really consider myself Catholic - but the vast majority of Catholics, to my understanding, would prefer that contraceptive services be provided through insurance. Even a few of the Republican Catholics I know of take birth control.

Generally, this sort of reading is read only by the more conservative Priests. Assault on religious liberty... no. The fact that the Catholic church is a religious organization should not exempt it from the laws of the land.

[TEF]

49. Not True

This week kicked of Catholic Schools Week across the country. I attended two different services because I have kids in two different Catholic schools (grade school/high school). There was no such "anti-Obama" letter. As a matter of fact, in 53 years of Catholic services, I've never heard a "stump" speach from a priest from the pulpit regarding any political figure or issue.

We're encouraged to and do pray for our leaders, pray for all sinners including ourselves, and consider how we can hlep one another. This headline is simply not true, or not true of a legitimate Catholic church priest.

Nice try DU.

[IDemo]

54. "Nice try DU"?

The OP is a repost of a CBS News article which quoted Newt Gingrich's take on a letter by Alexander K. Sample, Bishop of Marquette. You can read the entire letter here.

[TEF]

65. No.....

The letter was not read to "almost every Catolic sitting in a pew". That's what your link says in the first sentence. It's aimply not true. Otherwise, you could go to several cCatholic religious links and get a response to your claim. Try it!

Honestly, did you here it at your Catholic service yesterday?

[IDemo]

117. Don't put words in my mouth

I haven't claimed anything. I've posted links to articles by CBS and Business Insider.

And no, after being advised at a young age by my next door neighbor that I was hellbound for not being Catholic, the odds of me ever attending Mass pretty much became nil. Which was fine, because I became an atheist in the years to follow anyway.

[Critters2]

142. This was reported on our local news, from Chicago, too. nt

[lunasun]

145. Confirming ....Same place I first heard it too

[patrice]

66. My experience is that it rarely comes from clergy, but often comes from lay leaders representing

themselves as Catholic ministry. People in our city complained of letters on official parish letter-head, signed by lay leaders, telling them that those who would vote for Kerry should go to Confession.

Plausible deniability for pastors? Having their "cake and eating it too"? Neither of those are very unlikely possibilities.

[TEF]

74. That sucks....

I've not exerienced that in my paris in the 53 years I've been here...

[patrice]

76. I phone-bank in most election years; people say all sorts of things, especially when they are

frustrated and oppressed.

[patrice]

77. Also > Regarding lay Catholic political activism:

http://www.tfp.org/

[patrice]

79. Also also:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Golden_Spur

[HuckleB]

130. .

[HuckleB]

88. Do you really attend Mass?

It's a serious question.

[TEF]

95. Yes.

Yes I do. I'm a practicing Catholic. I wouldn't proclaim being at mass on Sunday if I didn't go. Everything I've said. in all my posts is true.

I go to church to pray, hear the word, to seek God's mercy, wisdom, and forgiveness. That's what church is for (in my opinion).

When I go to a music concert, I expect to here music, not political statements ro preaching.

[HuckleB]

97. I'm not buying what you're selling.

[mrs_p]

129. The word you want is "hear"

You "hear" music. "Here" is a place. Any good catholic education would have taught you the difference. Sorry, but you are giving yourself away too easily.

[onenote]

180. seriously?

Do you go around making judgments about all of the folks on DU that misspell or misuse words? You must be very very busy.

Fail.

[HuckleB]

183. And how is your post any different from the post you responded too?

[onenote]

184. Well, let's see

The post I responded to essentially accused a DUer of being a troll because they misspelled a word. I pointed out that was unfair.

I would hope you could detect a difference.

And yes, I know you have 20,000 plus posts and TEF has just a few. But in my book that doesn't justify the treatment that TEF has gotten in this thread.

[mrs_p]

201. Actually, no.

I usually just move on (though, the English Major in me does cringe a little each time). The RW points by the poster made me suspicious. That's all. I'm not looking to pick a fight, but I don't think DU'ers should have to be subjected to such things as "Nice try DU" and "We have 57 states accoriding to Obama."

[evilhime]

50. tax exempt?

I think not! They are preaching a political not a religious message, and should lose their tax exempt status. I am sure that letter did not appear in either the Old or the New Tesatments!

[patrice]

69. I'd bet none of them authentically represent the other side of the issue, so it doesn't qualify as

education on the issues either.

It's a specific meme, associated with a specific demographic, with specifically selected traits, amongst which are $$$$$$ to a TAX EXEMPT organization; not only is that POLITICS, it's politics in the BUSINESS of DISCRIMINATION.

[TEF]

52. Really...?

Why are there no response's from Catholics who were read this letter Sunday?

My guess there were isolated incidents, but the CBS Headline, which DU fell for hook , line, and sinker, the letter was not read "all across the country".

Peace!

[Bluenorthwest]

59. The story is from CBS News. You claim it is not true yet you offer no proof.

While doing so, you slander your fellow DUers. Yuck.

[Renew Deal]

61. The story is from Business Insider

At least, that's what CBS says. Business Insider seems to be a Rawstory type site.

[Bluenorthwest]

62. I still don't see any refutation of the reported facts...

Which is sort of the point and the thing to do. If a story is incorrect, show that it is, rather than declare that it is. Those who do not show that a story is incorrect usually can not do so. I don't like the characterization of DUers in that other posters's snit fit, and I offered that simply declaring something false is not really the same as proof.
I still see no facts to refute the story. That's how it is.

[TEF]

68. Reported "Facts"....?

The headline reads "During Church services Sunday, Catholics across the around the country were read a blistering letter...".

This is not the case at two different Catholic church services I attended. In addition, I have four sisters with kids in three different parishes in this city also were read no such letter. I stated in one post earlier, this is Catholic Scools Week. There was no mention or focus on the letter referenced herein. You have one commenter that mentioned it. I read one that said didn't her it at mass.

The disengenious statement that "Catholics across the country were read...." is not a fact. What is so hard to understand?

[jberryhill]

141. "Catholics across the country were read...."p

Do I gather correctly that all of your data pertains to one city? And would that be one diocese?

[Beer Snob-50]

60. the church i was at this past sunday did read the letter

to be honest, when i heard the beginning of the letter, i became angry and contemplated walking out (as i said in a response above i was talked out of it by my wife)......

[TEF]

80. I never.....

I never said it wasn't read in "any" church, I simply said it wasn't "read to Catholics across the country" as the article implies, which ultimately gets the hundreds if not thousands of comments in jest, ......."they shoudln't be tax exempt", etc.

That's my point. I never denied it wasn't read somewhere. I've read two comments was read - I've read two comments wasn't read.
The catholic Church has millions of faithful followers.

Is the headline justified, regardless of origin? The blind leading the blind...?

[HuckleB]

132. Unfortunately, the widespread press on this issue indicates otherwise.

Why is evidence something you can't grasp?

[jberryhill]

143. You have no basis for refutation

You know about one city, according to the claims you made.

Your statement that it did not happen in any of several churches in your city does not refute or disprove what happened "across the country".

Many things happen across the country which do not happen in my state, let alone my city.

[DisgustipatedinCA]

63. It would be best for you not to make guesses. You're not very good at it.

[TEF]

84. How so..?

Is that like believing the headline verbatum, "Catholics across the country were read a blistering letter from.......".

I gusee so!

[HuckleB]

67. See Post 18...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/101439146#post18

Also see:

The unconscionable consequences of conscience exemptions
http://ncronline.org/blogs/grace-margins/unconscionable-consequences-conscience-exemptions

Catholics hear protests of Obama health ruling at Mass
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/30/us-catholics-contraception-idUSTRE80T06K20120130

Catholics rally against Obama contraception mandate
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/catholics-rally-against-obama-contraception-mandate/2012/01/30/gIQAEZbscQ_story.html

Bishops out of touch with masses on birth control coverage
http://www.desmoinesregister.com/article/20120130/OPINION04/301300010/Bishops-out-of-touch-with-masses-on-birth-control-coverage

The story appears to be everywhere.

[TEF]

83. What..?

The links above are not the letter referenced in the article, and they do not mention anything about being read at "church's across the country".

[HuckleB]

85. In other words, you didn't read any of the links.

[HuckleB]

93. Hmm.

You seem to be confessing.

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. Joined today, only posted in this thread, and ended up repeating a RW meme

about Obama. Hmm ... confession indeed ...

[HuckleB]

121. +1

[WIProgressive88]

144. The priest at our church read the letter.

[DesertFlower]

73. most catholics use birth control.

i'm from a catholic family. my mom and my aunts never received communion until after menopause or a hysterectomy because they were using birth control. no one in my family except for my grandmother had more than 3 children.

[HuckleB]

87. Most of the Catholics I know who are/were on birth control don't/didn't bother to refuse communion.

It is true that many Catholics have much smaller families these days. Still, I am astonished at how many of the people I grew up with at church who ended up having four, five, six or more kids.

At the time, I thought they were fairly progressive. Oh, how wrong I was, in far too many instances.

[DesertFlower]

100. i'm 70 years old. i used birth control and

so did my friends, but we didn't go to confession because we were not given absolution if we didn't promise to not use birth control. i gave up my religion in my mid 20s.

i only had 1 child and i've been married 2x. there was no way i was going to have a bunch of kids i didn't want and couldn't afford.

[HuckleB]

120. Oh, I get it.

I had to leave the church for many reasons, but one was that I wouldn't go to confession for things that I didn't believe were wrong. The majority of our peers (we're in our early '40s), definitely used birth control, and most had multiple partners. (My wife and I are the oddballs, as we've been together since our teens. On the other hand, we were ambivalent about children, and the we tried, had one, and REALLY wanted another. That did not work out. We're OK with that. We know the reality of the decisions we made. Blah. Blah. Blah.)

Many of the folks we grew up with resemble our experience (no children, one child or two children), but many have multiple kids over time. We don't tend to spend much time with those who decided to have big families. Further, most of them are classic "habit" Catholics. They don't go to church much, but they make sure their kids are baptized, have first communion, etc... Again, back to the beginning of this post. I couldn't do that with my kid. I'm not going to make promises to anyone that I can't keep.

[TEF]

89. What....?!

Is there legitimate data that supports your statement "Most Catholics use birth control". If so, let us all in on the when and where.

[HuckleB]

94. Are you joking?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/04/14/98-percent-catholic-women-birth-control_n_849060.html

[DesertFlower]

98. i don't have statistics, but

i'm 70 years old and i'm speaking from experience from my family, my husband's family, friends, etc.

do you have statistics that they don't?

[ellie]

78. I quit going to church

when I sat down in a pew and opened up the hymnal and inside was a card saying that Obama was the antichrist and evil because of abortion. What a bunch of shit. The Catholic Church lost its moral high ground when it refused to do anything about its pedophile priests. Bastards.

-ellie
reformed Catholic

[patrice]

81. AND sold it's soul for a chance to name a SCOTUS justice the price of which was WAR on innocent

Iraqis.

[Vinca]

90. Time to forget that tax-exempt status.

[TEF]

92. Singled out

Yes, it's time to rescind a specific church or parishes tax exemption status for politics from the pulpit. That's why my original post said it didn't happen all across the country. The letter referenced was not read all across the country from the pulpit as the article implies.

It wouldn't make sense to risk an exempt status when these types of issues can be addressed much better outside the church pulpit.

[HuckleB]

99. Except that the evidence that it did happen all across the country is clear.

Why are you denying something so obvious?

[Demit]

160. Seems like your disagreement has to do with the meaning of 'around the country'

I came to this thread late, but reading thru it, it seems that you think 'around the country' means that the letter had to have been read everywhere without exception. And you offer your personal experience to refute that. However, the most that 'around the country' has to mean is that the letter was read in a variety of locations that are scattered around the country. You seem to be arguing a point that wasn't made, but was only inferred by you.

[patrice]

104. ESPECIALLY!!! since they are seeking CONTROL of TAX SUPPORTED services. nt

[DesertFlower]

103. why didn't newt and callista have children?

she was young when they got together. i guess they practiced birth control.

[zbdent]

169. Wasn't Newt's face and physique enough?

She was drawn to the power ... not much else ...

She knew he was a snake when she "handled" him ...

[glinda]

106. Yet the Church can keep you alive even when your Directive says not to.

[lunasun]

146. Yeah I dont care what their hospitals offer becuz I try to stay very far away

Same when I had a baby - no way!

[onenote]

107. Here's an example of the letter. I don't agree with it, but I also don't have a problem with it

Last edited Tue Jan 31, 2012, 01:22 AM - Edit history (1)

being read from the pulpit, just as I didn't have a problem when my synagogue (and my best' friends Catholic priest) criticized by name certain actions taken by the bush administration and implored congregants to make their voices known in an effort to get those actions reversed.

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ: I write to you concerning an alarming and serious matter that negatively impacts the Church in the United States directly, and that strikes at the fundamental right to religious liberty for all citizens of any faith. The federal government, which claims to be “of, by, and for the people,” has just been dealt a heavy blow to almost a quarter of those people — the Catholic population — and to the millions more who are served by the Catholic faithful.
The U.S. Department of Health and Human Services announced last week that almost all employers, including Catholic employers, will be forced to offer their employees’ health coverage that includes sterilization, abortion-inducing drugs, and contraception. Almost all health insurers will be forced to include those “services” in the health policies they write. And almost all individuals will be forced to buy that coverage as a part of their policies.
In so ruling, the Obama Administration has cast aside the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, denying to Catholics our Nation’s first and most fundamental freedom, that of religious liberty. And as a result, unless the rule is overturned, we Catholics will be compelled to either violate our consciences, or to drop health coverage for our employees (and suffer the penalties for doing so). The Obama Administration’s sole concession was to give our institutions one year to comply. We cannot—we will not—comply with this unjust law. People of faith cannot be made second class citizens. We are already joined by our brothers and sisters of all faiths and many others of good will in this important effort to regain our religious freedom. Our parents and grandparents did not come to these shores to help build America’s cities and towns, its infrastructure and institutions, its enterprise and culture, only to have their posterity stripped of their God given rights. In generations past, the Church has always been able to count on the faithful to stand up and protect her sacred rights and duties. I hope and trust she can count on this generation of Catholics to do the same. Our children and grandchildren deserve nothing less.
And therefore, I would ask of you two things. First, as a community of faith we must commit ourselves to prayer and fasting that wisdom and justice may prevail, and religious liberty may be restored. Without God, we can do nothing; with God, nothing is impossible. Second, I would also recommend visiting www.usccb.org/conscience,to learn more about this severe assault on religious liberty, and how to contact Congress in support of legislation that would reverse the Obama Administration’s decision. Sincerely yours in Christ, +Alexander K. Sample Most Reverend Alexander K. Sample Bishop of Marquette

I should add that, apparently, individual priests could and often did tailor the letter. The Business Insider story about the letters has a link to another version that does not even advocate appealing to Congress to reverse and expressly disclaims any attempt to interfere with anyone's politics.


Again, I don't agree with Church's position on this, but its not inappropriate for church leaders to speak out about decisions with which they disagree. That position applies whether I agree with the stance being taken (such as churches speaking out against segregation in the 60s or the against the Vietnam War in the 70s) or is one with which I disagree.

[TxVietVet]

109. This is the main reason I quit the Catholic Church.

It's more interested in voting for conservanazis rather than servicing it's parishioners.

I don't need a religion like that.

My mother and father were good Catholics. When they died, the Church wouldn't help with sending a priest to give the service because of where the funeral home was located. That was the last issue that told me I never need to darken the threshold of any church to find God.

They don't even do half that much to help the poor in their own parishes.

[LuckyTheDog]

110. The church is wrong

Once again, people confuse liberty with the "right" to impose their views on people they have power over. I am sorry, but the Catholic Church is flat-out wrong about this. Nobody is being forced to use birth control. Nobody is telling the church it has to change its views about birth control. It still can counsel its employees to not use the contraception coverage. But, the choice should belong to the individual.

I do not have a big problem with the Catholic Church overall. I did not grow up Catholic, so I don't carry any "recovering Catholic" baggage. I think the church does a lot of really good things. I know people who get a lot out of it. But in this case... yikes. I think they are really, really picking the wrong fight.

[eyewall]

114. I think there's a bit of oportunistic exaggerating going on

by Newt the pontificater.

I bet Newt figures if he doesn't get to be President then he'll be the next Pope.

[Thumper79]

118. Every single church that read that to their congregation

should have the tax status reevaluated. They play in politics, they lose the tax break.

[eyewall]

122. In this case they arern't breaking the rules

They are allowed to object to policy that violates their moral doctrine. They can speak to their congregation about an issue that is specific to their religious law.

The difference with evangelical churches is that they promote a party and specific candidates from that party. It goes beyond being a religious matter when it becomes partisan politics, or outright partisan campaigning which the evangelical churches do.

[onenote]

137. You wouldn't, I hope, say the same thing

about the churches that preached against the policies of the Johnson and Nixon administrations in Vietnam, or against southern politicians opposition to civil rights legislation or, more recently, against the Bush wars in Iraq and Afghanistan or against other bush administration policies.

I've heard rabbis and ministers (including UU ministers) preach those messages and I see nothing wrong with it. I don't agree with the position of the Catholic priests that spoke out against the administration's decision, but I have absolutely no problem with them expressing that opposition from the pulpit, just as I had no problem with religious leaders (Dr. Martin Luther King anyone?) speaking out against policies that I opposed.

[Flagrante]

123. Tax the Churches. Tax the Corporations owned by the Churches - F. Zappa

[Pakid]

124. The problem with religion

is that it has no respect for the rights of other people I have no problem with someone who doesn't wish to have an abortion or use birth control what I do have a problem with is when that person try to impose these beliefs on others. That is the problem with religion it can't mind its own business!

[lib2DaBone]

125. All of the world's problems are caused by Religion....

"Man will not be free until the last king is hung with the entrails of the last priest".

[LeftishBrit]

154. As an ardent secularist, I still would not say that ALL of the world's problems are caused by any

one thing.

Many of the world's problems are caused by authoritarianism, or greed, or both. These characteristics have certainly infiltrated many religious organizations, but they've infiltrated many other things too.

Perhaps the world's biggest problem is that the people who become leaders are usually, by the very characteristics that brought them to power, the least suitable to be leaders.

[Johnson20]

162. Nonsense. n/t

[datadiva]

126. Sounds like time for them to pay taxes. n/t

[Doremus]

127. Tax them! They want to lobby their members, fine, but take their tax-exempt status away!

This just so irks me.

DH was treated to this tripe at mass yesterday. His parish ALSO sent it home in writing via the bulletin.

This is such BS!

[sarcasmo]

159. Can you get a copy of that letter?

[Doremus]

181. Yes I can.

DH brought it home. I purposely defaced it by writing a recipe on the back.

I don't have a scanner or camera at home but I'll type some of the text in another response when I'm there later this evening.

[sarcasmo]

182. Cool, it would be nice to get this out on the web, Thanks.

[Doremus]

186. Here it is.

(Typing this on my laptop, pls excuse any typos. I'm also abbreviating where possible.)

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ: I write to you concerning a serious matter that will negatively impact the Catholic Church in the United States if it is allowed to take effect as planned by the US Dept. of Health & Human Services. The proposed action of the USDHHS strikes at the fundamental right to religious liberty for all citizens of any faith.

The USDHHS announced last week that almost all employers, including Catholic employers, will be forced to offer their employees' health coverage that includes sterilization, abortion-inducing drugs, and contraception. Almost all health insurers will be forced to include those "services" in the health policies they write, and almost all individuals will be forced to buy that coverage as part of their policies. (note: use of italics theirs.)

In so ruling, the Administration has cast aside the First Amendment to the Constitution of the US denying to Catholics our Nation's first and most fundamental freedom, that of religious liberty. And as a result, unless this rule is overturned, Catholics will be compelled either to violate our consciences, or to drop health coverage for our employees (and suffer the penalties for doing so). The Administration's sole concession was to give our institutions one year to comply.

We cannot -- we will not -- comply with this unjust law. People of faith cannot be made second class citizens. We are already joined by our brothers and sisters of all faiths and many others of good will in this important effort to regain our religious freedom. Our parents and grandparents did not come to these shores of America to help build America's cities and towns, its infrastructure and institutions, its enterprise and culture, only to have their posterity stripped of their God given rights. In generations past, all the faithful have witnessed to the importance of the fundamental rights guaranteed by our countrys founding documents. I trust that at this moment all of us will stand up for and work for the protection of those rights, especially the right to religious liberty for all America's citizens. Our children and grandchildren deserve nothing less.

(snip)

The remaining paragraph instructs parishioners to go to www.usccb.org/conscience to learn more and how to contact their congressperson.

Signed by Richard Lennon, the Bishop of Cleveland

[Deep13]

128. Dear Catholic ecclesiastical authorities:

[jimlup]

131. At least in some areas of the country I think this kind of dogmatic BS from the Catholic church

could backfire big time! Most Catholic People know that the church's position on birth control is absurd.

[K8-EEE]

136. I quit going to mass in 2004 because of shit like this

For me it was the selective "communion banning" - Kerry was getting flack for being pro-choice, but out here in CA, Arnie was getting photo ops with the treacherous Cardinal Mahoney.

And they keep making me happy about my decision. Screw them. Too bad they don't get this upset about child rape.

[JDPriestly]

138. What percentage of American Catholics do you think would disapprove of birth control?

I think it is very small.

Abortion is a different matter for a lot of Catholics.

But the vast majority of Americans are realistic enough to know that birth control is necessary in our time. Those who don't understand the difference between abortion and birth control are pretty irrational, very extreme.

[Harry Monroe]

148. I was at Mass yesterday and heard nothing about this.

[colddayinhell]

149. Are Catholics less fertile these days?

When I was a kid in the 60's it was not at all unusual to be acquainted with Catholic familes that had 6-10 kids. Nowadays, not so much.

Are Catholics secretly using birth control? Has the rhythm method been perfected to prevent pregnancies at the same rate as the Pill? Or has natural selection finally kicked in?

[LeftishBrit]

153. That is disgusting...

and what is it about some people currently using churches to spread right-wing messages against specific candidates? Even here, where there is much less of it, I happen to know that in 2009 the loonytunes Andrea 'The world is 4000 years old' Minichiello Williams, founder of Christian Concern for Our Nation, was invited to give a 'sermon' at a local Anglican church where she recommended that our MP should be replaced in the next election by a 'pro-life candidate'. (Unfortunately he was indeed defeated by a pro-life Tory.) I doubt very much that that sort of thing is actually allowed here, but nothing was done about it.

I do NOT think that this sort of thing represents Catholics, or Anglicans, in general; in fact in England much of the Anglican leadership is quite liberal, as are many Catholics. But the attempts by right-wingers to influence both church and state can get quite ugly.

[sarcasmo]

158. Tax exempt status should have been taken away years ago.

When they preach politics to the sheep every Sunday how can they still be tax exempt?

[onenote]

170. For the same reason that UU churches and African American Churches and progressive churches

that advocate for social justice are tax-exempt. You can't pick and choose who gets a tax break based on whether you like what they say from the pulpit or not.

And if you want to split the Democratic party, go after churches and see how that plays with the African American community -- the community that (a) has the highest percentage of church goers and (b) has the highest percentage of loyal Democratic voters.

[GTurck]

161. I heard that...

letter and was white with rage. I have mostly stopped going to Mass since the Catholic Church has veered away from Vatican II but do go sporadically to please my husband and grandchildren. Sunday was such a day and I felt assaulted by the letter. I walked out and only came back at the end. Basically the Church is saying that its dogma trumps everything else. This was an issue some 40-50 years ago and seemed to have been resolved. The Church can have its opinions but the attack on Obama and the federal government was egregious and I think wrong when we are already so divided and assaulted.

[wordpix]

164. an 8th gr. student mentioned this letter to me

Student lives in DC and had been to a march for "life." There was also a service at his Catholic school, which is where I think he heard the info, and here's what he took away from it: "Obama is taking away our rights and forcing women to have abortions..."

I set him straight.

Seems like reading this letter throughout the land in Catholic churches is a must-do order from the pope or someone high up.
Amazing how men who don't marry and can't get pregnant love to tell women what they should do about contraception.

GET YOUR NOSES OUT OF MY PRIVATE PARTS!

[Zambero]

167. An acceptable method of Catholic birth control

This disclosure from a fully recovered former Catholic:

One must always select sexual partners who are in incapable of becoming pregnant. Choice candidates would include prepubescent girls and young boys. Altar boys are the most accessible for those in the clergy. And hey, the church will even cover for ya if caught. Not too shabby, getting transferred to a new parish with fresh new conquest opportunities! All married couples must still forsake their birth control pills etc., overpopulate the earth to current papal standards (the more the better), and yes, vote for whatever Republican gets nominated later this year. Hopefully that would be the ultra-moral pillar of virtue Newt Gingrich, who by the away is one of US now folks!

[catbyte]

171. THe IRS needs to start taxing these bastards. ALL political churches.

[onenote]

178. Including Unitarian Universalist? Including African American churches

where preachers advocate for social justice from the pulpit?

Does your blood boil when you read the words of Martin Luther King Jr.'s famous sermon at Riverside Church in New York in 1967 where he explained why he was opposed to the war in Vietnam and uttered these words:

"I call on Washington today. I call on every man and woman of good will all over America today. I call on the young men of America who must make a choice today to take a stand on this issue. Tomorrow may be too late. The book may close. And don't let anybody make you think that God chose America as his divine, messianic force to be a sort of policeman of the whole world. God has a way of standing before the nations with judgment, and it seems that I can hear God saying to America, "You're too arrogant! And if you don't change your ways, I will rise up and break the backbone of your power, and I'll place it in the hands of a nation that doesn't even know my name. Be still and know that I'm God."

Probably not. Because you don't think churches that speak to matters of policy should be taxed. You think churches that take positions you disagree with should be taxed.

[jwirr]

172. That should lose them their tax exempt status.

[Jankyn]

173. Time to start taxing churches.

Seriously.

Those that are tending to matters spiritual rather than matters temporal won't care; those that are tending to politics deserve to pay the price.