Venezuela to probe Chavez cancer poisoning accusation
Source: Reuters
Venezuela will set up a formal inquiry into claims that deceased President Hugo Chavez's cancer was the result of poisoning by his enemies abroad, the government said.
Foes of the government view the accusation as a typical Chavez-style conspiracy theory intended to feed fears of "imperialist" threats to Venezuela's socialist system and distract people from daily problems.
Acting President Nicolas Maduro vowed to open an investigation into the claims, first raised by Chavez after he was diagnosed with the disease in 2011.
"We will seek the truth," Maduro told regional TV network Telesur. "We have the intuition that our commander Chavez was poisoned by dark forces that wanted him out of the way."
Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/venezuela-probe-chavez-cancer-poisoning-accusation-010128851.html
msongs
(67,347 posts)Drale
(7,932 posts)I hope the government doesn't lose its mind now and fall into civil war if Hugo's officials try to take power.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Get a grip on reality. Governments poison people. Governments kill people, and everyone knows it. Thus, it is reasonable, not paranoid, to suspect that this could have happened.
Drale
(7,932 posts)because Hugo was going on well documented trips to Cuba to be treated for cancer and he died from .....shocking.....cancer. Its the remained of the government trying to amp up the fear against the US but for what reason I'm not sure.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)The idea the the CIA has a weapon which give people cancer dates back to the 80's if I recall. I give it at most 15% chance to be true, but it isn't outside the realm of possibility. Considering the massive amount of anti-chavez propaganda and outright lies the US has promulgated about the regime and their support of the illegal coup attempt against Chavez it would be impossible for the government not to at least do it due diligence.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)Explain how such a rediculous weapon would work.
Exultant Democracy
(6,594 posts)Bradical79
(4,490 posts)You threw out a random number range and "the 80"s is a pretty weak source lol.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Uh..."Hugo's officials", i.e., his party, just WON THE FREAKING ELECTION. They already are in power.
Submariner
(12,497 posts)I have inscribed his initials on my bathroom sink faucets.
RKP5637
(67,084 posts)Plus you can switch them around if you're feeling a little Swiss.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)This is crazy talk, as anyone familiar with cancer or medical science in general will tell you.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)are you suggesting that people who are familiar with medicine/science believe that you cannot transmit cancer?
Because scientists know very well how to give cancer to laboratory animals. How do you think it gets studied?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that scientists have a cancer drug to give to rats in order to create tumors so they can test cancer treatments on them?
FYI--certain strains of rats are bred to be prone to cancer, so there's a ready supply of cancer-stricken rats available to researchers.
http://www.informatics.jax.org/external/festing/rat/docs/F344.shtml
reorg
(3,317 posts)I'm going to stay out of this and just wait for the results of the scientific investigation which I am convinced the Venezuelans are quite capable of managing without input from anonymous forum posters.
But, since you asked, and I had already tried, just out of curiosity, to find such scientific articles, here is what came up within seconds, didn't do any other "research", though:
For 152 days rats were fed a diet containing 0.25% of N-methylbenzylamine and sodium nitrite in concentrations from 0.32% down to 0.01%. Esophageal tumors were observed in all rats of a group when the concentration of sodium nitrite was 0.32%, 0.16% or 0.08%. No esophageal tumors were induced when the concentration was 0.06%, 0,4%, 0.02% or 0.01%. Out of 8 rats receiving a diet mixted with 0.3% of sodium nitrite and drinking water containing 0.6% N-methylbenzylamine one developed a carcinoma of the nose, none developed esophageal tumors. 10 out of 10 mice receiving for 16 days a diet containing 0.1% N-methylbenzylamine and 0.15% NaNO2 developed carcinomas of the forestomach and partly papillomas of the esophagus but only 3 out of 10 mice died from carcinomas of the forestomach when the diet contained 0.1% of the amine and 0.1% NaNO2 (fed for 16. days). The problems involved in ingestion of low dosages of a secondary amine and nitrite are discussed shortly.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2FBF00284420?LI=true
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)You said they "know how to give cancer to rats, how else do you think it gets studied."
That's different. The goal isn't to give rats cancer, and treat the cancer. it's to see which chemicals cause rumors.
Moreover, unless Hugo Chavez had been bred to be cancer-prone and was in a laboratory being fed carcinogens for 152 days in a row under CIA supervision, not the same thing.
The Venezuelans aren't going to do a scientific study, since the allegations are the product of mixing superstition, ignorance of science, and a political agenda.
But, maybe a Koch brothers think tank can give them the science-free conclusion they're looking for. After all, it looks like they have anti-science counterparts on the far left.
reorg
(3,317 posts)I didn't say anything about cancer studies.
What I did was try and find scientific articles about inducing cancer, whether it is possible at all. The article I mentioned is from the seventies. So, yes, apparently it has been found to be possible quite a while ago (and has nothing to do with rats being "cancer prone" .
Why do you even care? Why not wait for a result of that scientific probe and then see what kind of allegations are made, if any?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Which means a toxicology/forensic examination would be impossible, with his tissue formaldehyde and methanol.
Which means there will be no scientific investigation, just anti-science nonsense from an insane/dishonest political hack.
The tobacco industry gives thousands of people cancer. But it takes them decades of two packs a day smoking for each cancer victim, and then only 10% get cancer.
So, yes people do give each other cancer, but it's also scientific illiteracy to claim that cancer can be weaponized as a tool of assassination.
10,000,000 times more likely Chavez gave himself cancer by eating too much meat and cheese.
reorg
(3,317 posts)showing that cancer can be deliberately induced, I gave you the link.
Other than that, I'm not interested in your speculations.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I'm going to stay out of this and just wait for the results of the scientific investigation which I am convinced the Venezuelans are quite capable of managing without input from anonymous forum posters.
If you believe there's going to be a scientific investigation, Paul Ryan has a budget to sell you.
reorg
(3,317 posts)Maduro did not speculate. He publicly stated that, as far as he was concerned, he had ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT WHATSOEVER that something was off with Chavez' illness, due to the point in time it was contracted and the particular kind of cancer.
At the same time, he stressed there would be a SCIENTIFIC investigation. (IOW he would not - like the opposition - just go on and on spreading rumors based on personal impressions). So, I'm happy to wait for the results, if anything comes out of this, and for the answer to this interesting FOIA request:
All records and documents, including but not limited to, emails, letters, cables or other communications, memoranda, notes, minutes, photographs, audio recordings, video recordings, digital recordings, intelligence assessments, communications, records or other data that relate to or reference or discuss any information regarding or plans to poison or otherwise assassinate the President of Venezuela, Hugo Chávez, who has just died.
This request in made in light of the U.S. governments acknowledged history of knowledge and possession of information regarding, and/or participation in, attempts to assassinate foreign leaders. The acknowledged attempts by the U.S. Government to assassinate foreign leaders, include Fidel Castro, Rafael Trujillo, and General René Schneider Chereau (See, e.g.., January 3, 1975 Memorandum of Conversation between President Gerald Ford and CIA Director William E. Colby), among others [secured by the National Security Archives pursuant to the FOIA].
This request is also made in light of the exhumation of Palestinian leader Yassar Arafats body to determine whether his death was caused by poisoning, including media reports that [t]he Institute de Radiophysique discovered abnormal levels of polonium-210 in his personal effects, Chris McFreal, The Guardian, November 27, 2012, Yasser Arafat Exhumed and Reburied in Six-Hour Night Mission: Samples Taken From Corpse of Late PLO Leader Will Be Used to Investigate Claims He Was Poisoned With a Radioactive Substance; Arafats Body is Exhumed for Poison Tests, New York Times, November 28, 2012.
http://www.justiceonline.org/docs/foia-request-hugo-chavez.pdf
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)"We know that our commander ascended to the heights and is face-to-face with Christ," Maduro said at a Caracas book fair. "Something influenced the choice of a South American pope, someone new arrived at Christ's side and said to him: 'Well, it seems to us South America's time has come.'"
Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Argentina was elected in a surprise choice to be the new leader of the Roman Catholic Church on Wednesday, the first non-European pope in nearly 1,300 years.
"He (Chavez) may also call a constitutional assembly in Heaven at any moment to change the (Catholic) church on Earth so the people, the pure people of Christ, may govern the world," Maduro added of his mentor.
That FOIA request is what I would expect from the Stalinist freak show at ANSWER.
I do hope Maduro wins--the man is comedy gold.
reorg
(3,317 posts)What is even more funny is how certain critics in the media are too dumb to recognize when someone is speaking with irony. Kind of reminds me of the latest Oscars scandal.
You can watch Maduro's stand-up routine here and how it is greeted with appreciating laughter from his audience:
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)becomes very difficult to tell what they mean as satire and what they mean earnestly.
Honestly, Hugo Chavez talking to god is more plausible than the US giving him cancer.
reorg
(3,317 posts)although it took you only a minute - after watching what he actually said and how he was saying it - to realize the error of your ways and how easily you were being manipulated by certain voices in the media.
I don't see anybody "peddling conspiracy theories" here. There is a general assumption, however, due to historical precedent, that some countries may be willing to engage in assassinations of inconvenient foreign leaders. So, if one such leading personality who was considered antagonistic to the interests of certain states dies a premature death, it is only natural that his supporters and friends insist it should be investigated.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)in good faith.
Again, the notion that that great powers would assassinate someone is not unreasonable. No one is disputing that point.
The claim that they would do so by giving someone cancer is not something rational people take seriously. It is most definitely "peddling a conspiracy theory" in the tradition of Birthers and 911 or Sandy Hook Truthers.
Those that believe such nonsense believe it for the same reason rightwingers believe in birtherism--political ideology overriding any interest in rationalism, science, and evidence. It reflects an emotional investment on the part of true believers.
It is the province of cranks and fantasists. Given the ideology of those advancing it, the most immediate historical parallel is Lysenkoism.
Indeed, no rational person has yet supported this thesis.
Here is the conclusion of people who understand cancer, medical science, and rationalism:
Dr. Elmer Huerta, an oncologist and past president of the American Cancer Society, told CNN en Español Tuesday that assertions that injections or poisons could have caused Chavez's cancer have "absolutely no scientific substance."
"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html
Fascinating that the Chavistas and the Koch brothers have an equal disregard for science. Must be an oil thing.
reorg
(3,317 posts)and you can rest assured that Maduro and the PSUV will capitalize on this undisputed truth during the election campaign.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Last edited Thu Mar 14, 2013, 05:30 PM - Edit history (1)
they can.
That's how hacks roll.
One final thought:
No scientific investigation could ever establish a cause of cancer. Why cells decide to start dividing and mutating is not provable.
So, the claim of the investigation being "scientific" is less credible than that made by Koch Brothers funded climate studies.
reorg
(3,317 posts)for a long time now. It's as if nothing else matters to them.
Whatever may surface as a result of the investigation will certainly have little effect on the election, though, and much less on the actual policies Maduro and the PSUV are going to pursue.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)he is a stick in the mud. And very belligerent stick in the mud. With a grudge over a leader he never met or voted for or against.
Ken Burch
(50,254 posts)Interesting.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said.
Any scientific investigation into Chavez's death, Huerta said, could be complicated by the fact that Chavez's body has already been embalmed so that it can be placed on display in a Caracas museum.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html
As I said, Maduro is either a cynical liar or a mentally unstable clown. Either way, he has contempt for science. And anyone who buys into his superstitious crap can sit next to the anti-vaxxers and climate denialist a.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)that I think will give you cancer. Actually not even a full syringe, just a few microliters. Would you agree to injecting it in yourself? Are you so certain that it won't work that you'll take that risk?
If the answer is no, then ask yourself why.
And then stop talking about this.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)a mystery substance with unknown carcinogenic and toxic properties, with no benefit provided?
Here's the point people are kind of overlooking:
assassination by cancer would only have about a .1-1% chance of actually working.
Exposure to carcinogens or or millisieverts of radiation sufficient to cause cancer within any reasonable degree of certainty would need to be massive--so massive it could not be disguised and would have other side effects.
People who smoke 2-3 packs of cigarettes their entire lives have a 10% chance of getting lung cancer.
What on earth diabolical assassination plot would choose such an ineffective means of assassination?
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)If I present you with a syringe containing just a drop of some unknown substance, are you so certain that it won't cause cancer that you'd be willing to inject yourself with it?
What if I guarantee you that it isn't anything with an adverse acute effect? It isn't 'toxic' in that sense.
If you think there might be a very slight chance that such a (virus?) exists, then please drop the subject.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Weird question.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)Because it's totally impossible that someone could be involuntarily surreptitiously injected with such a thing.
I'm asking whether you believe such a thing exists. You say you don't, but the real test of your belief is whether you'd submit to it, even hypothetically.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)I am at a loss as to how to respond to it.
Last word is yours.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)Let me frame it as simply as I possibly can:
Are you certain that it is impossible to inject somebody with 100 microliters of something that--and let's hedge just a bit here--*might* cause cancer?
How certain?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)would increase the chance they would get a given form of cancer by a minute fraction. Maybe a .001% chance of a single dosage doing the trick. A chance so small it's nearly impossible to quantify. (remember that smoking over 200K cigarettes over a lifetime gives you a 10% chance of getting lung cancer)
Funny thing is that even if someone was injected with that dosage and you had video evidence of it, it would still be vastly more likely that they developed it because of other causes.
Does that strike you as a plausible assassination scenario?
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)I'm trying to have a logical rational discussion with you, just to be clear
OK, what if that 100ul now contains a cocktail of many tumor-promoting viruses? Does that increase the odds sufficiently to worry you? It does to me.
All I'm saying is that it is within the realm of possiblity. Not that it happened, but that it is possible. That's all.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)1) As was noted I had in a discussion with someone else, cancer and carcinogens are stochastic, not determinative, causes of cancer at all but extreme doses (which would have other severe side effects due to toxicity etc). Stochastic means probabilistic and random, and unpredictable.
What this means is that if you give a certain dosage of a cancer inducing agent to say 100,000 people, you'll increase the odds of everyone getting cancer, but guaranteeing cancer for no one. And, what this may do is increase the rate of cancer from say 1500 out of 100,000 to 1650 out of 100,000.
In other words, it's highly, highly, highly unlikely-- even if you gave said cancer agent to a person in any appreciable dosage--that you would cause them cancer. In fact, even even if they did get cancer, it would still be unlikely that what you gave them caused that cancer.
2) You can't determine what caused cancer. This is what the tobacco industry leaned on for years. You can tell that there is cancer, but you cannot tell what caused the cells to act the way they did. There are statistical studies on risk factors that can point to probabilities, but that's over enormous data sets. For any given individual, no medical investigation could possibly provide evidence of foul play.
To sum it up: a cancer cocktail would have a very small chance (a fraction of one percent) of working, and there would be no way of proving that he was given cancer artificially even if it did work.
To put it another way: if the CIA wanted him dead, they know much more effective means of achieving that. The odds of a cancer attack working would be so small that it would be a complete waste of time and resources to harness the technology and infrastructure within the US and then waste a double agent with access to Chavez's body to carry it out.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)I'm not talking about carcinogens in the environmental incidental sense, where exposure is limited. Even smoking falls into that category.
I'm talking about a cocktail of potent tumor-inducing viruses injected directly into somebody's body.
Athymic rodents are used in research because quick results are necessary. A rodent has a short lifespan relative to a human. So using nude mice just speeds up the process. That's not to say that the same injection in normal rodents wouldn't also cause cancer if given enough time.
I'm not saying that the injection results in instantaneous cancer. It obviously takes years to develop, no matter the cause.
I'm saying you can certainly boost the odds tremendously of someone getting cancer by injecting them with a potent cocktail of tumor-inducing agents.
That is all I am saying.
As for determining cause, if biopsy were conducted and viral genome were found and sequenced, and found to contain sequences not found in nature, ie engineered, well, that might be some sort of info that could be processed.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The known oncoviruses cause lymphoma, skin cancer, and liver cancer
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)Cancer can be induced in laboratory animals through a variety of methods. But cancer is not transmitted between animals.
Duer 157099
(17,742 posts)Induce is the correct word.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)reorg
(3,317 posts)By Rowland Evans and Robert Novak
Washington - The death of senior career diplomat Walter Stoessel from leukemia at age 66 is blamed inside the U.S. government on illegal Soviet bombardment of the U.S. Embassy in Moscow by microwave beams designed to intercept secret communications.
Proof cannot be obtained that Soviet beams saturating the embassy were responsible for cancer cells that killed ex-Deputy Secretary of State Stoessel. But inexplicable health problems among embassy personnel (including Stoessel, who was ambassador from 1974 to 1976) have convinced American diplomats that the cancer was induced by the radiation. In the words of one top-level insider, "Walt was killed, pure and simple."
During his ambassadorship, the U.S. government sent furious protests to the Kremlin. After months of dispute, the Soviets finally ordered the KGB and other intelligence operations to tone down the microwave beams. By then it was too late for Walter Stoessel. ...
http://is.gd/bMBT11
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Thanks for the laugh.
Note that was leukemia, which is a lot easier to induce than colon cancer or whatever Chavez had is.
Do tell me how the US would have managed to bombard Hugo Chavez with high doses of radiation inside Venezuela without anyone knowing or protesting?
But it is valuable for this concession:
Proof cannot be obtained that Soviet beams saturating the embassy were responsible for cancer cells that killed ex-Deputy Secretary of State Stoessel
Yes. It is scientifically impossible to assign blame for cancer to any single cause--it's genes going haywire. So much for Maduro's scientific investigation which has a per se impossible goal.
reorg
(3,317 posts)and it apparently went on for some 10 years. There were investigations, studies carried out, voluminous written assessments of the legal implications being made, the problem was considered "as one of the utmost seriousness" in the records of the Dept. of State (February 1976-January 1977, p 1021).
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)However, it is highly, highly, highly unlikely to cause cancer in any single person. It is also much more likely to cause several forms of cancer--especially leukemia--than it is to cause the cancer that killed Chavez.
And there is no scientific way of determining what causes any single incident of cancer in a person.
There has not been alleged a single incident in which an American operative exposed Chavez to a cancer causing agent. It has not been explained why the Americans would choose a method with a >99.9% chance of failing to carry out such an assassination.
In short, the allegations are less credible than claims that a missile hit the pentagon rather than an airplane doing so.
But, it's an anti-imperialist form of anti-science theory, so all is Pravda. Lysenkoism is the true path forward!
reorg
(3,317 posts)but I am not aware of any "allegation".
Maduro gave expression to a gut feeling, it has also been mentioned that at some point there was an "intuition", Chavez said something to the effect that it almost seemed as if someone was doing it on purpose when he, and several other progressive leaders in LA within a relative short period of time were diagnosed with cancer.
Given what you have already admitted, that certain states would probably do it if they could, such a gut feeling or intuition is just a natural reaction. If any suspicion of interference can safely be ruled out, a scientific investigation will surely make such reassuring findings public.
No need to speculate at this point without being privy to specific information. You don't know what kind of cancer he had, you don't know if there was "a single incident" or possibly many over a longer period of time during which he could have been exposed to something. I believe cancer research is a complex field and I doubt you have any particular expertise beyond what is commonly known, given what you have presented so far.
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)with the intent of giving them cancer, and having a very plausible chance of success?
Because that didn't even happen at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Archae
(46,299 posts)Long on accusations, facts are nonexistent.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/24/world/europe/25spycnd.html?_r=0
Radiation Poisoning Killed Ex-Russian Spy
By ALAN COWELL
Published: November 24, 2006
LONDON, Nov. 24 The British authorities said today that Alexander V. Litvinenko, a former Russian K.G.B. officer and foe of the Kremlin, died of radiation poisoning here in what a senior official called an unprecedented event.
Police said radioactive traces were found at three London locations, underscoring the highly unusual nature of the whole episode, which began when Mr. Litvinenko first complained of feeling unwell three weeks ago.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Citing Litvinenko for the proposition that you can poison someone with cancer to assassinate them is like saying that the Kennedy assassination is proof that Chavez may have been shot by a phaser weapon as shown in Star Trek.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Radiation exposure can also increase the probability of developing some other diseases, mainly different types of cancers.
In small doses, I was just citing this as an example, Litvinenko was administered a large dose, small doses over time can cause cancer....
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)radiation in Chavez's colon without him or his security noticing?
Or did they manage to feed him radioactive food for years that didn't affect any other part of his body?
You're not making yourself sound any smarter.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)believe what you want....
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)that it's plausible that the CIA used radiation to give Chavez colon cancer is anti-science on a level with the anti-vaxxers.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)I said it was plausible based on past experiences. Mocking condescension is not "proving" an argument false.
But you can believe what ever you want.
BTW, Thimerosal is a mercury based preservative that offers no medicinal, theoretical value to the drugs but is there to preserve shelf life of the vaccines and hence corporate profits. But that is another argument.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)giving another human being colon cancer.
What you provided is like siting the Kennedy assassination to support an allegation that it's plausible that the CIA is using phaser weapons.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Chavez died of a heart attack not cancer...
Chavez died Tuesday at age 58 from amassive heart attack,according to the head of Venezuela's presidential guard. He had been battling an undisclosed form of cancer for 14 years.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/hugo-chavez-death-highlights-heart-risk-cancer/story?id=18676612
The Cuba government and Venezuelan gov kept the form of cancer secret, so you are assuming he had colon cancer. he was treated in his pelvic area, so that could mean it was in his reproductive organs.
7) Reproductive Tract
Because reproductive tract cells divide rapidly, these areas of the body can be damaged at rem levels as low as 200. Long-term, some radiation sickness victims will become sterile.
http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/radeffects.shtml
Again radiation could have caused this not saying it did, but if the Venezuelan was privy to the type of cancer, that would lead them to surmise something fishy. Especially since he got it shortly after he was elected in 1998.
He had been battling an undisclosed form of cancer for 14 years.
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/hugo-chavez-death-highlights-heart-risk-cancer/story?id=18676612
And then the heart attack caused death, so there is always this.......
http://www.sott.net/article/232912-Assassinations-by-induced-heart-attack-and-cancer
The answer to the question - Can you give a person cancer - is yes. After nearly 80 years of research and development there is now a way to simulate a real heart attack and to give a healthy person cancer. Both have been used as a means of assassination. Only a very skilled pathologist, who knew exactly what to look for at an autopsy, could distinguish an assassination induced heart attack or cancer from the real thing.
I am not CT and I AM NOT STATING THIS IS TRUE, but they are privy to info you are not privy too. And like you, we are both assuming, only I am the only one to admit it.
You just respond with bad analogies and logical fallacies. Have a good day.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)1) The form of death being a heart attack. Okay, so the claim is that maybe the US assassinated a terminal cancer patient and made it look like a heart attack? Okay, nothing loony about that . . .
2) If not colon cancer, then reproductive organs? Well, that makes them giving him radiation there MUCH more likely. Serious James Bond shit--the Woman with the Radioactive Vagina.
3) So, now the story is that the US gave him cancer immediately after he took office? Funny how that runs against every bit of cancer research which shows that induced cancer takes YEARS to develop.
Peddle that shit at Rense.com
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)you can come off your hobby horse of self righteousness now.
The US government has NEVER assassinated anyone through clandestine means....
silly me.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)keep on reverting to the "oh of course the US would never do that" red herring.
No one is claiming that the US is above suspicion for assassinations.
What we are pointing out is that it doesn't pass the smell test scientifically.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)is being passed on by those that that site "science" even though they do not site science in any of their arguments.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Dr. Elmer Huerta, an oncologist and past president of the American Cancer Society, told CNN en Español Tuesday that assertions that injections or poisons could have caused Chavez's cancer have "absolutely no scientific substance."
"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Cancer is a stochastic effect of radiation,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiation-induced_cancer
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)means before you use it.
Stochastic means:
Randomly determined; having a random probability distribution or pattern that may be analyzed statistically but may not be predicted...
In other words, there's no way to predict if someone will get cancer from a dose of radiation--it increases the probability but does not make it certain or even likely.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)I guess I could state that the Doctor you quoted may have an axe to grind coming from Peru, he could be part of the ruling elite class of SA that benefits from global corporate control of the natural resources in SA.
becoming a doctor is not cheap.
But then again I am using your "logic"...
Chavez was anti-colonialism and a threat to US hegemony in SA.
We invaded and carpet bombed whole nations for less transgressions.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Keep in mind there is zero evidence Chavez was exposed to increased doses of radiation. Also keep in mind that he did have several known risk factors for colon cancer, such as obesity.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)by your reasoning ever ex football player should be dying of colon cancer... he was not that obese also..
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)speculation category?
After all people die all the time from cancer around the world both the rich and the poor, the famous and the unknown just like people do commit suicide such as Vince Foster and who here remember the conspiracy rumors over that?
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)But nice try...
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)Adults aged 50-74 carry the greatest burden of cancer, with over half (53%) of all cancers being diagnosed in this age group. There are more cases in this group than in the elderly (in whom rates are higher), because the population size of 50-74 year-olds is larger.1-4 Slightly more cases are diagnosed in males (an average of 90,680 per year in the UK between 2008 and 2010) than in females (80,193).
And for the record, Chavez was 58 which is well within that risk group so you can scream "false equivalency" until you are blue in the face if you want but the statistics dont support you.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)I have always stated that their suspicion is warranted, not that it happened.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)which is not my intention at all but http://www.health.harvard.edu/press_releases/cancer-treatment-can-cause-heart-disease
"For people with cancer, chemotherapy and radiation therapy can be life-prolonging treatments. They can also cause serious heart problems, reports the August 2012 issue of the Harvard Heart Letter.
Some chemotherapy agents are so toxic that severe reactions may occur while the drug is being given. With others, cardiovascular problems like high blood pressure, blood clots, arrhythmias, and stroke appear shortly after chemotherapy starts. Other chemotherapy drugs put people at increased risk for a future heart attack or heart failure. The Heart Letter lists the chemotherapy agents most toxic to the heart and their corresponding cardiovascular effects."
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)you are.
Like I have stated before, I don't believe it is true, just possible. You believe what you want.
Life must be simple for you that you have time to flog the dead horse.
Petty...
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)you resemble that remark.
You Petty boy, you.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)give your reply the due consideration it deserves.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)I don't live on the site, I have a life.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)14 years ago he was not in the 50-74 range...
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)"The reasons for the poorer survival in elderly patients require further investigation but include several factors such as less aggressive treatment for the elderly 1-3, and a smaller proportion of older patients being entered into clinical trials4-6, which are generally associated with higher survival rates."
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)I feel sorry for your friends you hang with that are older than 59..
Hilarious, elderly.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)for lower survival rate.
But look, I am not saying its 100% impossible the cancer wasnt given to him because clearly its not 100% but without any evidence (unless you have such which you havent shared with us) to prove it was done all we can really go on here is the statistics for getting cancer and the related survival rate which sadly werent in favor of Chavez just like they werent in favor of my father who died from complications due to stomach cancer and both of my grandmothers who died from lung cancer.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)I was honest in my assessment.
I pointed it out from the get go.
They are privy to info we are not.
They have suspicions and I agree they are warranted.
20% of the population there is Gringo Euro ruling class, he gave to the 80%.
He nationalized the Oil industry, he took from the Greedy and gave to the poor.
You cannot do that when you are under the sphere of influence of the Monroe Doctrine for the Multi-Nationals.
Whether he was killed or not or it was just coincidence, he is dead.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)of him being given cancer why should I be providing any evidence that such a thing happened?
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)of evidence support it...........big difference.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Not speculation yours was ten times more speculation than mine.
I have provided plenty of links pointing to the fact that Cancer can be man made and spread through nefarious means.
You just chose to ignore them.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)The links I posted had statistical data pertinent to cancer but no rather than prove the data wrong you resorted childishness, grow up.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)You are the one piously clinging to this ridiculous argument and won't let it go for nothing like some self righteous person of virtue, typing away and replying to my every response like trying to prove that you are relevant somehow in a silly online web forum that covers political opinions and such but you will still reply with stupid responses like; "typical", "Duh, your stupid", "your wrong", "I am this I am that", "I was scientific blah, blah blah", "Statistical Data, wahh-wahhh", going on and on about something not important like you "are getting to the root of some nefarious Conspiracy Theory" and just cutting and pasting some "what ever" search engine result and posting to some copy you just grabbed off of google like your some crusader doing opposition research solving the BIG Problems of the UNIVERSE!. Wow, thank the lord we have patriots like you cleansing the world of vermin and scum. You must have all the answers!
Why did I ever doubt you!
You are are sooo smart.
I just nominate you for the "SMARTEST PERSON EVER IN A WEB FORUM CHAT" award.
Thank, you, thank You, thank you for making me see the LIGHT! WEhhoooooo, I've been saved, HAL-A-Lew-YAA!.
Praise Jesus! Hail Satan.
This Has gone on so long I don't even remember the topic that I was originally posting too.
Response to mikeysnot (Reply #147)
cstanleytech This message was self-deleted by its author.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)Facts dont change because we want them to they only change if new data proves the prior facts were mistaken and so far you havent shown a single "fact" that refutes the statistical data though you have provided plenty of what ifs, maybes and could be's.
Oh and also you might want to consider responding in a more timely fashion to peoples posts as you are bordering on what is known as necroing.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)pervert.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)I will give you the benefit of doubt and assume you are not an idiot and thus you must just be new and unaware of the fact that when someone replies to a post you made a notification is made in the My Posts section letting you know.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)calling names again, typical...
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)and unaware of the fact that when someone replies to a thread that a notification is made to inform you of such under the My Posts tab then? Ok, thanks for that update.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)it works... try it sometime...
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)"I must be new"
Let me explain something to you young man. there is a little icon that looks like a folder that you can see how long someone has been a member and being new here(compared to me) you might want to learn something before you go on and on about bullshit and calling people "idiots" you have 5 times as many posts here than I and I have four more years on you as a member.
Calling me an idiot = projection.
Be gone peasant you bore me.
One more backup and I am done here for the week. I will look at your Crappola next week.
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)of the My Posts tab informing you of a new reply but you run along now and have a good weekend.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)The Woman with the Radioactive Vagina? When was that movie in the theaters?
Which actor played 007 ?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Bay Boy
(1,689 posts)Googled it and LOL'd
That was an interesting movie.
And Brock would have been a great 007!
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Judith Vary Baker, Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK Assassination, Monkey Virus Induced Cancer and Dr. Mary Sherman
Editor's NOTE:
I have read Edward Haslem's book (Dr. Mary's Monkey: How the unsolved murder of a doctor, a secret laboratory in New Orleans and cancer-causing monkey viruses are linked to Lee Harvey Oswald, the JFK assassination and emerging global epidemics, Edward T. Haslam, IPG, 2007) which documents the history of the development of the Salk Poliomyelitis (virus) vaccine and the contamination of the vaccine with Monkey virus ((SV 40, the abbreviation for Simian Virus 40), also known as Polyoma virus) which has been found to induce cancer in humans.
Haslem's book also outlines the work of one Judyth Vary Baker who participated in a clandestine biowarfare project in New Orleans (summer 1963) the intention of which was to develop a fast-acting cancer with which to kill Fidel Castro. The project was headed by famed New Orleans surgeon Dr. Alton Ochsner and the "hands on" director was cancer researcher Dr. Mary Sherman.
Haslam has extensively investigated the claims of Baker who alleges that Lee Harvey Oswald was involved in the project with her, Dr. Mary Sherman as well as David Ferrie and that Oswald and Baker had a romantic afair during the summer of 1963. He reports that Sherman was involved in irradiating cancer causing monkey viruses utilizing a linear particle accelerator which he proved was housed in a Microbiology laboratory in one of the Public Health Service buildings in New Orleans in 1963.
Haslam also suggests that the AIDs crisis may be related to covert biowarfare related research conducted in the 1950's and 1960's.
The following video's contain some of the Judyth Vary Baker interviews conducted by JFK Assassination researcher Dr. James Fetzer and an interview of Ed Haslem by Wim Dankbaar and Jim Marrs (who wrote the forward to Haslem's book).
--Dr. J. P. Hubert
What to Make of Judith Vary Baker: You be the Judge (Video interviews)...
/More... http://moralphilosophyofcurrentevents.blogspot.com.es/2007_09_30_archive.html
And, um, see also eg.
Guy CT, Cardiff RD, Muller WJ.
Source
Institute for Molecular Biology and Biotechnology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada.
Abstract
The effect of mammary gland-specific expression of the polyomavirus middle T antigen was examined by establishing lines of transgenic mice that carry the middle T oncogene under the transcriptional control of the mouse mammary tumor virus promoter/enhancer. By contrast to most transgenic strains carrying activated oncogenes, expression of polyomavirus middle T antigen resulted in the widespread transformation of the mammary epithelium and the rapid production of multifocal mammary adenocarcinomas. Interestingly, the majority of the tumor-bearing transgenic mice developed secondary metastatic tumors in the lung. Taken together, these results suggest that middle T antigen acts as a potent oncogene in the mammary epithelium and that cells that express it possess an enhanced metastatic potential.
PMID:
1312220
[PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
PMCID:
PMC369527
Free PMC Article
/... http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1312220
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Has left the house... don't show him things that counteract his opinion!
He is easily irritated with them.
naaman fletcher
(7,362 posts)wouldn't the obvious culprit be Cuba then?
cstanleytech
(26,223 posts)I wont say its 100% impossible it wasnt caused though because because there is a chance it could have been but to put it into perspective there is also a chance I might just win the powerball jackpot tonight, not very likely I will but there "is" a chance.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Archae
(46,299 posts)My Dad bought Citgo gasoline often, maybe Chavez poisoned my Dad with the pancreatic cancer that killed him!
You see how totally asinine this "Chavez was poisoned" crapola is?
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)Everyone knows gasoline causes cancer. Meanwhile, we do not know what caused Hugo's cancer, yet.
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)This just looks silly.
musical_soul
(775 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)is causing them to blame us for Chavez's cancer. Maybe next North Korea will blame us for Kim Jong Ill for dying.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)and 20% former ruling elite "white" class elements in Ven coordinated with our CIA to do a coup of him in April 2002.
Pat Roberston called for his death on TV.
It was well known there that his policies of redistribution of oil money from the multinationals to the lower class was the reason the media portrays him as a monster.
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)The Bush Administration did a lot of things that were fucked up, as did his dad's, and Reagan's Administration.
The part I have a hard time believing is that we gave him cancer.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)but we did carpet bomb entire city of Baghdad to get one despot dictator....
tblue
(16,350 posts)wreaked havoc on Hugo Chavez because he refused to pay ball with Big Oil. They could not dislodge him with their CIA-enabled coup attempt. Did anyone believe they'd just give up?
I don't understand why anyone on this site would think the 'hatred for the US' is so hard to wrap their brains around.
Thanks for being informed and for sharing the truth beyond the corporate propaganda about Hugo Chavez.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)It is either ignorant, naive, or deliberately misleading to imply that this could never happen or that such things have never happened to world leaders.
Particularly in the region of Latin America where, more often than not in the last many decades, western powers like the US and Europe have been actively involved in major coups, assassinations, supporting violent military dictators, and so forth.
The cancer-poison thing aside, it is reasonable to assume that there are operations in the region (from financial support to who-knows-what) in order to keep Chavez' party out of power *despite the wishes of the majority of Venezuelans*.
The history of meddling by western powers in the region leans toward the violent and the anti-democratic. To pretend otherwise is foolish.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)impossible to assassinate someone by giving them colon cancer, these allegations are completely credible.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Like I said, believe what you want, but the countries belief of foreign interference is well documented.
Some books for you to read.
John Perkins The Secret History of the American Empire and Confessions of an Economic Hit Man
Chalmers Johnson Nemisis
Greg Palast Armed Madhouse and Vultures Picnic
And for good measure watch this...
http://app.topspin.net/store/artist/19986?theme=black&w=300&h=250&src=tw&wId=181688&highlightColor=0x00A1FF&awesm=t.opsp.in_f0ckJ
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it's certainly within reasonable discource.
Had he died of a heart attack or liver failure, the speculation would be worth investigating.
But, the idea that the CIA gave him colon cancer is in line with the "no planes hit the pentagon' nonsense.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)By the bought and paid for corporate "news" agencies.
Nice, thanks for wasting my time.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)No, I am familiar with science. Perhaps you should look into it.
Science is not a creation of the corporate media.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)from our nation's leaders regarding N Korea's nuke capabilities, or Iran's for that matter.
Which is to say, not very.
Is it anti-Western propaganda? Sure. It is well-deserved given the history? Hell yes.
The point is, people are using this as a reason to call Venezuelans paranoid, insane, silly, whatever...to write off any valid suspicions as being from those people who think the CIA might have given Chavez cancer.
It's a propaganda game, it is pretty easy to see through, but it doesn't discount the very real likelihood that shenanigans could be afoot down there at the hands of our CIA or other US/European ops.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The evidence tends to point to the fact that Iran's nuclear capabilities are being exaggerated. But it's not physically impossible for those claims to be true.
That is quite different than making scientifically impossible claims.
The correct analog would be if the US accused North Korea of having photon torpedoes in outer space waiting to hit Los Angeles.
To repeat:
claiming that a foreign agent gave Hugo Chavez colon cancer runs against everything science has ever said about colon cancer and its causes.
Cal Carpenter
(4,959 posts)I am pointing out that it is irrelevant in terms of propaganda, because most people subject to it are not scientists.
And, for the record, it may be possible to increase someone's chances of getting cancer by exposing them to radiation, for example.
But again, fwiw, I personally doubt this is the case here, and it is the propaganda game that is more relevant here than the science.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)colon cancer by radiation, unless you shove radium up their ass.
The dosages required for colon cancer are much higher than those that would create cancer in other kinds of tissues, e.g. leukemia and thyroid cancer.
And even then, the radiation only increases the chance of cancer, it does not at all make it likely much less certain.
So unless one is willing to allege that it's possible that the CIA shoved radium up Hugo Chavez's ass with the goal being to increase the likelihood that he would get colon cancer, it's an impossibility.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)just close proximity, like and infected chair... but as I stated earlier YOU OFFER NO PROOF THAT IT WAS COLON CANCER!
You are assuming it is.
Even the articles which I linked to did not state COLON CANCER.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Cancer is not a contagious disease.
There have been zero recorded instances in human history of cancer being used as a weapon. Those who understand how cancer is induced--even via externallities like radiation and chemicals--understand that it could not be done with even a 10% chance of success, given that all radiation and carcinogens do (unless in such massive doses that other poisonous effects would take place) is raise the probabilities.
Indeed, the allegation is nothing more than bad science fiction writing. It is not taken seriously by rational human beings.
Dr. Elmer Huerta, an oncologist and past president of the American Cancer Society, told CNN en Español Tuesday that assertions that injections or poisons could have caused Chavez's cancer have "absolutely no scientific substance."
"Science cannot sustain this hypothesis," Huerta said.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/12/world/americas/venezuela-chavez-death-investigation/index.html
Nye Bevan
(25,406 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)someone's plane down.
Not so to give them colon cancer.
COLGATE4
(14,732 posts)cancer" types of their delusion by citing facts. They cling to this 'theory' in order to continue to lament the loss of their Fearless leader. Surely such a giant of a leader couldn't have been felled by a nasty disease which occurred because, well, because shit happens and cancer occurs in human beings sometimes. No, it had to have been caused by the antirevolutionary Dark Forces (possibly in conjunction with or assisted by the Illuminati, the BilderbergGroup, the Rothschilds and/or the CIA and the local Masonic Lodge. Viva la Revolucion. You just can't keep a good conspiracy theory down...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Personal weakness.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)I was surprised to see that a test found unusually high levels of polonium on Arafat's stuff:
"If we take the scenario of Mr Litvinenko, one gigabecquerel at the beginning would come to about 10 millibecquerel," Dr Bochud told Al Jazeera.
"What was astonishing in our case was that we found values in the samples of Mr Arafat that were in the same order of magnitude."
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-07-04/new-tests-suggest-yasser-arafat-was-poisoned/4108532
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)He get's a little cranky when you do that...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)But, he died of cancer.
mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)Heart attack... already stated that several times now.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)mikeysnot
(4,756 posts)heheehheee.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)And take place over a period of years.
And the incidences of cancer increased a paltry 10%
This makes sense as a means of assassination . . . how?
Note that the vast majority of people who survived Nagasaki and Hiroshima did not develop cancer.
yurbud
(39,405 posts)Death by disease doesn't help the cause the way taking a bullet for the team does.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Perhaps you missed the part where I explained that no cancer agent would have anything approaching a likelihood of success.
Response to Zorro (Original post)
Brayshawna Williams Message auto-removed
Coyotl
(15,262 posts)I'm reading this on my iPhone so I can't tell who it is. But this made me chuckle. Thanks for that!
Eta: Now I know.
Judi Lynn
(160,429 posts)formercia
(18,479 posts)
The SV40 is a type of polyoma virus. The term poly means many and oma means tumor. Its very name designates its ability to cause many types of cancers. The specific biological mechanisms by which SV40 transforms (turns cancerous) cells have been well studied since its discovery in the early 1960s. In fact, there are volumes of scientific publications on this subject. Below is a brief outline of some of the mechanisms. Supporting documentation can be found through Medline by simply entering the term SV40 with the appropriate mechanism.
1. Telomerase activity
The telomere is a repetitive stretch of DNA found at each end of a chromosome. Telomeres are shortened each time a cell divides. This is the reason that normal cells can only divide roughly 50 times. An enzyme, telomerase, extends the telomere. Tumors cells often have telomerase activity which allows the cancer cells to divide without limit. SV40 infection leads to telomerase activity.
2. Binding to and inhibition of cellular p53 and retinoblastoma (RB) proteins
The p53 gene and the retinoblastoma (Rb) gene are tumor suppressor genes. They promote cell-cycle arrest (stop cells from dividing) when the cells are injured or damaged. Their ability to function properly is critical because their respective proteins stop the formation of tumors. The major SV40 oncoprotein is the Large tumor antigen (Tag). Tag binds to and inactivates cellular p53 and Rb. Therefore, the presence of SV40 stops these tumor suppressor genes from doing their job.
3. Inhibition of protein phosphatase 2A (PP2A)
Protein Phosphatase 2A (PP2A) plays a role in the critical cellular processes of protein synthesis, DNA replication, transcription, and metabolism. Small t antigen of SV40 comprises 174 amino acids. The region between residues 97-103 interacts with the PP2A. This interaction reduces the ability of PP2A to inactivate ERK1 and MEK1 protein kinases, resulting in stimulation of proliferation of cells.
--snip--
More at the link:http://www.sv40foundation.org/How-causes.html
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)pretty damned quick, didn't it?
formercia
(18,479 posts)It does tend to quiet the Peanut Gallery.
Judi Lynn
(160,429 posts)has their confidence failed them?
formercia
(18,479 posts)I could have posted more, but anyone with a little curiosity can find a lot more on the subject.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)heh heh!
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)You need more than the existance of this virus, you have to show it could have caused the specific type of cancer Chavez had, that it would be reasonably effective as a weapon, you need a delivery method, etc. Sure, cancer CAN be transmitted to another person or induced, but it is generally too complex of an occurrence to make it an effective way to assassinate someone.
formercia
(18,479 posts)that's been documented as well.
Bradical79
(4,490 posts)jzodda
(2,124 posts)I mean they already embalmed the corpse correct? If they didn't take tissue samples beforehand there is no way to test this (somewhat outlandish based on existing science) theory.
I asked my uncle who is a cancer researcher at John Hopkins and he thinks its not possible with current medical science to transmit cancer in a way suggested by this yahoo article.
nomorenomore08
(13,324 posts)nt
Socal31
(2,484 posts)n/t
Pterodactyl
(1,687 posts)Travelman
(708 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)If the US is such an enemy, why does VZ do so much business with them?
Answer: Because they pay their bills.
Gotta get money from somewhere.
Maduro is on the ropes. He has to motivate the masses against "the other" so they don't notice the shit surrounding them...like the crime rate, the food shortages, and the shrinking of a viable middle class, to say nothing of a money supply.