New pope is Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio

[Stinky The Clown]

Will post link ASAP

Papal Name Francis

Said to be the Voice of the Poor

ARGH ....... I pasted links, headlines and excerpts. They won't post.

Link: http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/13/17290508-new-pope-is-cardinal-jorge-mario-bergoglio?lite

Excerpt: By Alastair Jamieson, Staff writer, NBC News

VATICAN CITY - Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio was named leader of the world's 1.2 billion Catholics on Wednesday.

Minutes earlier, white smoke rose above the Sistine Chapel and bells rang out across Rome, prompting cheers and wild applause from the crowd of tens of thousands gathered in St Peter’s Square in front of the Vatican.

He was introduced to the world – in Latin - from the balcony of St Peter’s Basilica.

[snooper2]

1. Is that a white dude?

[Divernan]

90. Argentina "disappeared" most indigenous peoples.

Less than 2 percent of its citizens are indigenous (non-white). There's a long history of genocide in Argentina - tied in with land grabs under various military dictatorships. At the end of the 19th century, the Argentinean army assumed as state policy and carried out its so-called "final solution".

In the early 20th century, many Germans, including Nazi agents, who had emigrated to Argentina actively supported Hitler. Human Rights groups put the total number of "disappeared" during the 1976-1983 military dictatorship at around 30,000.

As you read these horrific accounts, keep in mind that Argentina has always been a Catholic country. The CIA factbook reports that 92 percent of the population are Catholic. So where was the leadership of the Catholic church (in both Argentina and Rome) during these indigenous genocides and forced disappearances?

http://www.ipsnews.net/2007/11/rights-argentinarsquos-jewish-lsquodesaparecidosrsquo/

"DAIA points out that, just as in the Nazi concentration camps, political prisoners in Argentina were assigned numbers, stripped of their names and humiliated, and that after they were killed, their bodies were hidden. Jewish political prisoners were also subjected to “added suffering,” it says.

"In his testimony to CONADEP, survivor Daniel Fernández said Jews were subjected to an especially cruel and sadistic form of torture: “the ‘rectoscope’, which consisted of inserting a tube into the victim’s anus, or into a woman’s vagina, then letting a rat into the tube. The rodent would try to get out by gnawing at the victim’s internal organs.”

A man who testified anonymously before CONADEP said the torturers laughed at Jewish prisoners and painted swastikas on their bodies. Cristina Navarro, another survivor, said one guard took special pleasure in beating detainees with Jewish last names. “It is clear, then, that this was not a particular ‘excess’ committed by some repressors, but rather an institutionalised conception and practice within the security forces in power during those years,” says the report.

Other witnesses said torturers questioned detainees in detail about Jewish organisations and drew up maps of synagogues and sports clubs, as well as lists of names. Some of them even knew words in Hebrew or Yiddish, and were “truly obsessed” with Zionism and Israel, said Timerman.

Nora Strejilevich was born in Buenos Aires to first generation Argentine parents of Eastern-European Jewish descent.

In 1977 she was disappeared after signing up to go on a local Jewish Agency’s trip to Israel. After being subjected to several days of extreme phsyical and pyschological torture, she was released and fled Argentina, going first to Israel, Spain and Italy, then to Canada, where she earned her PhD in Latin American literature. Today she is a professor at San Diego State University.

Strejilevich has worked extensively to preserve the memory of Los Desaparecidos and to use that memory to pursue an end to human torture. In addition to A Single Numberless Death, she has written about her experiences as a survivor and the importance of testimonio both in academic and creative formats. She was interviewed for Nunca Más, has worked on several films about human rights, and continues to tour the world speaking about her work as a survivor, activist, and intellectual.
Writer Nora Strejilevich said one of her interrogators “assured me that the ‘problem of subversion’ was the one with which they were most concerned, but that the ‘Jewish problem’ followed it in order of importance and that they were filing information.”

The junta's rhetoric was extremely anti-semitic and Argentine Jews were routinely disappeared and subjected to special tortures, including having Nazi symbology spray painted on their bodies and being forced to perform Nazi salutes (SImpson 91). One of the most notorious anti-semitic torturers, Julio Simon, nicknamed el Turco Julian was sentenced to 25 years in prison for crimes that he committed during the Dirty War.
http://digitalunion.osu.edu/r2/summer06/herbert/asnd/index.html
Read the BBC article here. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5247472.stm

[Divernan]

108. He's 76;staunchly opposes Abortion/Contraception/Gay Marriage -what a guy!

Opposed gay marriage: The war of words continued on Tuesday as church leaders staged large protests around the country against the proposed law. On Sunday, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires, had declared it a “destructive attack on God’s plan.”

Mrs. Kirchner harshly criticized church leaders on Monday, saying that their discourse on the issue resembled “the times of the Crusades” and that they failed to acknowledge how socially liberal Argentina had become.

“They are portraying this as a religious moral issue and as a threat to ‘the natural order,’ when what we are really doing is looking at a reality that is already there,” the president said from Beijing. “It would be a terrible distortion of democracy if they denied minorities their rights.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/14/world/americas/14argentina.html?_r=0

He blocked priests from moving into "base communities" and political activism.

From 1973 to 1979 he served as the Jesuit provincial in Argentina, then in 1980 became the rector of the seminary from which he had graduated.
These were the years of the military junta in Argentina, when many priests, including leading Jesuits, were gravitating towards the progressive liberation theology movement. As the Jesuit provincial, Bergoglio insisted on a more traditional reading of Ignatian spirituality, mandating that Jesuits continue to staff parishes and act as chaplains rather than moving into "base communities" and political activism.
Staunchly opposes abortion, same-sex marriage, contraception and gay adoption.
Bergoglio is seen an unwaveringly orthodox on matters of sexual morality, staunchly opposing abortion, same-sex marriage, and contraception. In 2010 he asserted that gay adoption is a form of discrimination against children, earning a public rebuke from Argentina's President, Cristina Fernández de Kirchner.
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/papabile-day-men-who-could-be-pope-13

Accused of conspiring with junta in brutal kidnapping of 2 Jesuit priests.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/apr/17/world/fg-cardinal17

A human rights lawyer has filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine cardinal mentioned as a possible contender to become pope, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio's spokesman Saturday called the allegation "old slander."

The complaint filed in a court in the Argentine capital on Friday accused Bergoglio, the archbishop of Buenos Aires, of involvement in the abduction of two Jesuit priests by the military dictatorship, reported the newspaper Clarin. The complaint does not specify the nature of Bergoglio's alleged involvement.
The accusations against Bergoglio, 68, are detailed in a recent book by Argentine journalist Horacio Verbitsky.

In May 1976, priests Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics were kidnapped by the navy. They surfaced five months later, drugged and seminude, in a field.

At the time, Bergoglio was the superior in the Society of Jesus of Argentina.

[Divernan]

122. Any record of new pope ever opposing torture of children/parents?

This went on for 8 years! Can anyone produce any record of this Pope/then archbishop confronting the government?

Initial details about the fate of "the disappeared", as they are known, came from the accounts of those few who lived to tell the tale. According to their testimony, people suspected by the military of being "subversive" would be abducted in raids by plainclothes men.

Once kidnapped, they would be taken to one of more than 300 detention centres. The most notorious of these was the Naval Mechanical Centre in the capital, Buenos Aires - known by its initials in Spanish as Esma.

Many were tortured using electric shocks and other methods. Children were tortured in front of their parents and parents in front of their children. The ordeal could last for weeks or even months, usually ending in the death of the victim.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4173895.stm

[Ghost Dog]

185. It's not a long history. Just the last couple of centuries or so.

As I've suggested in another thread, or in this thread elsewhere, apparantly following the anglo-US model, thus breaking with Spanish tradition.

[jeff47]

116. Both of his parents are Italians (nt)

[marshall]

144. It depends on how you define "white"

Typically throughout three 19th and 20th centuries, when race was such a hotly discussed issue, Southern Europeans were not considered white. That description was restricted to those of Northern European descent.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

165. He's white.

End of discussion.

[marshall]

213. It's actually a topic of great discussion

Although Hitler did classify Italians as "white," current thought has broadened immensely. Check ou "Are Italians White? How Race is Made in America," by Guglielmo and Salerno.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

215. Italy is a country not a race.

Do you classify "American" as a race too? Lets ask the native Americans if they had time to classify white people into groups, they got equally fucked by the Anglos and the southern Europeans.

[marshall]

216. Race is socially constructed

In that sense it does have some similarity to country borders, which change over time. Perhaps it would also be accurate to refer to the Pope as Mediterranean, as that term is often used to refer to Southern Europeans, as Northern Europeans may be referred to as Anglos. But I do think the term white is useful as a counterpart to black, which seems to be used less and less frequently these days.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

217. what about the Italians that live closer to Germany?

You're right that race is socially constructed. That's why you're speaking nonsense.

[marshall]

218. Yes, that it is nonsense is the point

Especially in this day and age.

[Beacool]

219. Yes, he is white. You got a problem with that?

Most Argentines are white. It is a whiter country than the US, for that matter. Look it up.

[snooper2]

220. lol

I posted the first response within 2 minutes of the OP before it was edited with just a headline and a name..




At least I got a couple chuckles We can go all series though if you want.

[Beacool]

222. It's just that people in our country think that we are the only white people

in the continent, other than Canada. They can't conceive that a person could be caucasian and still be Hispanic. It's the height of arrogance and ignorance to assume that Europeans only arrived in North America. "Hispanic" is an ethnic denotation, it has nothing to do with race.

I'm not addressing this to you specifically, but to all those who automatically treat Hispanics as a separate race. Only in the USA...........

[TrogL]

2. Interesting - he was nowheres near the top of the list, and a Jesuit

I did NOT want the Canadian.

[rucky]

211. I had him seeded at #4 on my bracket.

[CTyankee]

3. Hey an Italian Argentine!

The best of two possible worlds...

[24601]

150. Consolation prize for losing the Falklands vote.

[CTyankee]

155. It sounds like all the Italian guys just couldn't go all the way and found this happy

middle...he has an Italian father so OK...ack...

[Hissyspit]

4. Pope Francis

[tomm2thumbs]

151. at least the horned-one is gone

talk about dodging one

[whistler162]

176. Wonder if he will be mulish?

[Cush]

5. so much for Peter The Roman

[Spitfire of ATJ]

14. I know,...the Rapture Types are throwing things.

[Volaris]

166. I know, aint it nice for a change?

I think good things could come from this....

[Spitfire of ATJ]

178. Yeah, like the Church admiting the world isn't flat.

[meow2u3]

6. He picked the name Pope Francis I

The animals are jumping for joy!

[Wabbajack_]

55. Animals?

Why is that?

[Liberalynn]

65. St Francis is

who you pray to for the health of your animals.

[El Supremo]

71. I pray only to God.

[Renew Deal]

82. What would your jayhawk say?

[El Supremo]

87. That is a fictional animal.

[Lucky Luciano]

107. Fictional. There is some irony there. nt

[Blue_Tires]

114. We pray to Bill Self

I'm still hoping to get Colin Firth to play him in the movie...

[Ghost Dog]

188. Will Self, you mean? Butt?

... Initially, the reader suspects a homage to Kafka's The Trial, as a man innocent of a conscious crime impotently faces the intractable machinery of the state. 'Tom heard, issuing from his own lips, the pathetic excuse he had heard so often from those of his children: "But it was an accident."' But it becomes clear that Self's precedent here is Conrad's Heart of Darkness. The law requires Tom to travel into the war-torn interior of the country to make reparation to the wronged tribe, journeying through an apocalyptic landscape that is simultaneously both lawless and obsessively legalistic. His companion on this brutal road trip is Brian Prentice, a fellow felon afflicted by raging psoriasis and a vocabulary straight from Kipling's Stalky & Co, whom Tom suspects of being a child molester.

As they move further from civilisation into these blasted tribal zones, where the legacy of Western imperialism has combined with primitive blood feuds, it becomes clear that once they reach their destination and find the sinister, Kurtz-like anthropologist Erich von Sasser, only one of them can return. Given the relative severity of their crimes, Tom is blithely confident that the trip is all about dispatching Prentice, yet he is plagued by disturbing dreams, including one in which he has turned into a cigarette. Passive as he is, Tom lacks the self-awareness to read the symbolism; he is indeed becoming the butt of a bad joke on a grand scale.

Self excels at the language of disgust and here physical revulsion saturates every page, applied equally to food, the body, even the topography: 'The salt pans that flaked like eczema, the warty termite mounds, the endless charcoal strokes of the eucalyptus trees on the wrinkled vellum of the grasslands.'...

/... http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/apr/13/fiction.willself

[Liberalynn]

84. Many do pray only to God

When I went to Catholic School in the sixties, we were told you were not praying to the Saints in a worshiping sense like you were God, merely asking the Saints to itercede with God on your behalf.

Everyone has their own belief system though and I respect that.

[El Supremo]

93. The Reformed Churches find that completely false.

The only intercessor is Christ who is one of God's three personalities already.

No Saints
No Priests
No Monsignors
No Bishops
No Archbishops
No Cardinals
And certainly, no Pope

[gateley]

177. What about the Virgin Mary?

[El Supremo]

203. Isn't that a drink? n/m

[Ghost Dog]

192. So: No Church. More clean.

Better, Right?

Just... Gnosis.

¿What is this three-in-one concept to which you refer? Please explain.

[Fuddnik]

125. I pray to my dogs.

I'm polytheistic and dyslexic both!

[El Supremo]

139. +1!

[Liberalynn]

168. I like that

[lastlib]

173. I pray to my cat. She IS God.

(If you don't believe it, just ask her!)

[Ghost Dog]

196. Cats ask for no prayers.

Cats do appreciate understanding. Respect, Love, even.

But that's entirely up to you...

[lastlib]

200. No, but they most assuredly demand fealty.

Total.Unwavering.Fealty.

[Ghost Dog]

204. Cats demand nothing.

It's up to you

[lastlib]

205. obviously, you never met my cat.......

...or had to open a window for her b/c she was pounding on it at 2:00 in the morning....or.....

[Ghost Dog]

206. That's just 'cos you want to...

[amuse bouche]

141. Which one?

There are thousands

[Volaris]

167. Well then maybe that means we will get a better herd of politicians next election.

[Liberalynn]

170. One can only hope

[Ghost Dog]

68. Very cool, er, legend, the St. Francis story.

It's a game-changer. Potentially.

[OhioChick]

78. Francis of Assisi

Is known as the Patron Saint of Animals.

[Old Union Guy]

172. Not that one ...

St. Francis Xavier, the Jesuit missionary who went to India and points east.

[OhioChick]

187. Not from what I've heard

New Pope: Locals approve name choice after St. Francis of Assisi

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lanow/2013/03/new-pope-locals-approve-name-choice-after-st-francis-of-assisi.html

St. Francis of Assisi: Patron Saint of Animals

http://angels.about.com/od/MiraclesReligiousTexts/p/Francis-Of-Assisi-Miracle-Man-And-Patron-Saint-Of-Animals.htm

[msanthrope]

179. Wrong Francis. nt

[littlemissmartypants]

7. A Jesuit. eom

[aristocles]

15. Then he has sworn to obey himself. n/t

[yellowcanine]

19. The first Jesuit Pope ever. Is that significant?

[littlemissmartypants]

23. IMHO, it makes him a bit of a rebel. eom

[Tommy_Carcetti]

25. Jesuits tend to be more intellectual, slightly less conservative.

That's a good sign.

[yellowcanine]

34. Is it too much to hope for a fact-based Papacy?

[NYC Liberal]

37. Still pretty anti-gay, anti-choice, etc.

But there was no way anyone elected was going to be radically different there.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

42. As it relates to gay issues, you're probably not going to find anyone in the hiearchy...

....with a radically different approach. At least not any time soon.

And the Church is always going to be vocal against abortion. That's just the way it is.

What I wonder is whether he will be willing to explore opening the priesthood to married individuals, which is long overdue. I'd love for them to consider opening the priesthood to women as well, but I'm not going to hold my breath on that.

[NYC Liberal]

46. I totally agree. But as I said in another post, we can hope he will

be progressive in some other areas. The pope may not have authority outside of the church -- but he still can have a lot of influence.

[Ghost Dog]

85. Isn't uncontrolled 'gay-ism' precisely the main problem, uh,

act these guys need to try to clean up?

[yellowcanine]

96. "And the Church is always going to be vocal against abortion."

But the current "life begins at conception" notion was not always the case. Abortion was pretty much believed to be wrong from the first century but Thomas Aquinas followed the reasoning of Aristotle that a male fetus did not receive a soul until 40 days after conception and a female fetus did not receive a soul until 80 days after conception. So while Aquinas viewed all abortion as wrong, he did not consider early abortions to be murder.

http://embryo.asu.edu/view/embryo:124796

[SharonAnn]

76. Except for a few Jesuits who are Opus Dei. i don't understand that.

The Jesuits I've known were intellectual very rigorous and though perhaps not free-thinkers in the broadest sense, nonetheless were open to new ideas and seriously considered them. They even adopted some of these "new ideas" if they found them philosophically correct.

Though no longer Catholic, I have great respect for the type of Jesuit that is intellectually rigorous. It requires a great deal of open-mindedness to study issues, analyze them, consider them in the light of Christ's teachings, and learn how to apply that to our real lives. I really don't understand any of them becoming Opus Dei because that just doesn't fit the the Jesuits I've known.

[RainDog]

186. Since this guy conspired with the Argentinian dictator

to hide political prisoners from an Int'l Human Rights group during Argentina's Dirty War - I don't think his mental capacity is quite so important as his political past as an avid supporter of a fascist regime.

[greiner3]

131. Uhhhh;

Jesuits were the order accompanying the Spaniards during and after Columbus' time.

A mean and pragmatic order, they and the Dominicans had a falling out many centuries ago.

It got so bad that the then pope (?) issued a decree that forbade the continued feud and to stop all fighting or else both orders would be disbanded and the members excommunicated.

Such is THIS guy's legacy.

Well, after a Nazi, this is at least a minor improvement.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

135. At a certain point, you have to realize the past is the past.

Not to say that the past needs to be forgotten, but to say that things that happened centuries ago aren't all that applicable these days.

And as dysfunctional as the current Church is, it's still light years better than where it was at the Inquisition.

[Ghost Dog]

198. ""COUGH"" Inqusition <==> "Homeland Security"

Anyone?

[littlemissmartypants]

175. #goodoldboysnetwork. eom

[Posteritatis]

193. Holding something that happened five hundred years ago against someone today is silly. (nt)

[a la izquierda]

201. No, they we not.

The Jesuits wee the last of the orders to arrive. Franciscans, Dominicans, and Augustinians were the first.

[aristocles]

32. The Jebbies are the intellectual leaders of the Catholic Church

They led the Counter Reformation. Many are scientists and scholars.



Full disclosure: I graduated from a Jesuit high school and university.

[yellowcanine]

62. The Counter Reformation included the Roman Inquisition.

Basically a carrot and stick approach. And the Jesuits, while sometimes being persecuted, particularly during the Spanish Inquisition, also did a little persecuting themselves, particularly the French Huguenots. So one has to wonder, is Pope Francis more in the tradition of the persecuted St. Ignatius of Loyola or in the tradition of hunting down Huguenots and forcibly converting them?

[musical_soul]

124. He doesn't appear to have a history of trying to convert people.

He's spoken for what he thought was best for the community in Argentina.

The worst he appeared to do is keep some priests from going to more political bases.

[yellowcanine]

129. Maybe not, but there was talk before the Conclave about choosing a Latin American

Pope to help shore up the Catholics against Evangelical Protestants, who have made many inroads recently. Also Pope Benedict stirred up things a bit by openly courting Anglicans to the point that Anglicans were talking about "sheep stealing." And Jesuits did often carry the missionary outreach torch for the Catholic Church - particularly in North and South America.

[Liberalynn]

72. Watched on ABC and Diane Sawyer says Pope Francis has a degree in Chemistry

[Katashi_itto]

95. I agree, Jesuits are very much the rebels. I graduated from Rockhurst University a Jesuit run

college. We will see if he actually makes real changes. As for him being a Jesuit, knowing the priests at Rockhurst that taught me. I find that encouraging. We will have to see, if he's different or it's just more of the same.

[jumptheshadow]

136. This individual was a chemist with a Ph.D in philosophy

So he fits the intellectual mode. Wikipedia has a disturbing political allegation which I hope is completely untrue.

I like that he lives modestly and I love his choice of name.

[fascisthunter]

189. REALLY?!

WOW... verrrry interesting.

[AngryAmish]

8. Almost every Argentinian is a white dude.

Look at Che Guevara.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

12. Pretty much.

Its one of the whitest countries in the world. Tons of Italians and Germans there.

[AngryAmish]

16. Although, to be fair, a little more than half of Argentinians are dudettes...

[Coyotl]

58. Like the British colony to the North, they killed the Native Americans

Same in Chile, most Natives exterminated.

[Ghost Dog]

80. Yeah. Centuries after the 'discovery' of the Americas, the N. American racist

genocidal model was followed in the South of South America. Breaking tradition.

[Bacchus4.0]

119. the Spanish conquest preceeded the English by over 100 years n/t

s

[Ghost Dog]

121. Indeed. Well over 100 years. And was never overtly

genocidal. Population statistics to this day are clear (eg. Peru, Bolivia, ... ).

[Spitfire of ATJ]

9. Described as a champion of the poor.

Wanna bet Wall Street is freaking out?

[meow2u3]

109. Watch out, Paul Ryan!

Pope Francis I is coming for your budget!

[Drunken Irishman]

10. Good. I think I can live with this.

[baldguy]

11. Grand Moff Tarkin?

[LeftOfSelf-Centered]

41. Bwah!

Well done!

[aristocles]

13. He has a degree in chemistry. n/t

[gvstn]

17. Here's a little info

Here's Sam Jones on Bergoglio:

The archbishop of Buenos Aires is a Jesuit intellectual who travels by bus and has a practical approach to poverty: when he was appointed a cardinal, Bergoglio persuaded hundreds of Argentinians not to fly to Rome to celebrate with him but instead to give the money they would have spent on plane tickets to the poor. He was a fierce opponent of Argentina's decision to legalise gay marriage in 2010, arguing children need to have the right to be raised and educated by a father and a mother. He was created a cardinal by John Paul II on 21 February 2001.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/13/papal-conclave-chooses-pope-day-two-live-coverage

[muriel_volestrangler]

18. The Guardian's bio:

The archbishop of Buenos Aires is a Jesuit intellectual who travels by bus and has a practical approach to poverty: when he was appointed a cardinal, Bergoglio persuaded hundreds of Argentinians not to fly to Rome to celebrate with him but instead to give the money they would have spent on plane tickets to the poor. He was a fierce opponent of Argentinas decision to legalise gay marriage in 2010, arguing children need to have the right to be raised and educated by a father and a mother. He was created a cardinal by John Paul II on 21 February 2001.

believes in contraception to prevent the spread of disease
is open to dialogue with other faiths
is not facing questions over any abuse scandals
is not facing questions over the handling of the Vatileaks scandal
would make reforming the curia a priority

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/interactive/2013/mar/12/choose-your-own-pope-pontifficator#jorge_mario_bergoglio

[cliffordu]

24. So except for the condom thingy he

is basically going to continue to protect and ignore the child rapes in the Catholic Church.

And the rest of their madness.

Just fucking great.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

26. He doesn't support contraception.

Thats bullshit.

[AngryOldDem]

30. Hm. I'm reserving judgment because the Vatican is political as they come...

But I like what I see here.

This could be the start of some reform. Downside is, he's 76 years old.

[freshwest]

57. How will Paul Ryan & Rand Paul reconcile 'believes in contraception' with their 'person-hood' mania?

Half the population considers keeping the GOP out of their private parts important. Let's see if this filters down. He looks very solemn in this picture from USA Today:

[muriel_volestrangler]

73. The 'to prevent the spread of disease' means only when a spouse has HIV

If you look at the other Guardian bios, nearly all the cardinals have agreed on that (Benedict introduced it).

[freshwest]

117. So they expect them to use condoms, and allow for non-reproductive sex?

This goes against that mantra - although it may never have been true.

Alan Keyes used that argument while running for office to bash gay sex, saying it was not reproduction and then he went on from there to make all kinds of negative character judgments. He was indulged by CNN and I was shocked they let allowed it to stand without any rebuttal offered.

Sex is not just about making babies, even in heterosexual sex, as everyone knows. Keyes was likely appealing to the lowest common denominator of the Reagan era. I am glad Obama beat him in 2004.

'Keyes is a traditional Catholic and a third-degree Knight of Columbus,' says his Wikipedia bio. I have no way of telling if it affects his views, anymore than rumors the conservative Catholic members on the Supreme Court are members of Opus Dei.

I find it dangerous to have people in positions of power and holding political office, making and interpreting laws for the rest of us. Not because of their belief, but because conservatives don't follow the spirit of the Constitution with respect to our rights to believe or not believe as JFK did in office and as Obama does now.

I am disappointed to learn that the part I read didn't explain that fully - I hoped it meant a change in their views of people. No hope on that front to stop the GOP's War on Women. Foolish thinking on my part to hope for better, guess everything will stay the same.

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. "a lesser evil"

Lombardi said the key point was: "It's the first step of taking responsibility, of taking into consideration the risk of the life of another with whom you have a relationship … This is if you're a woman, a man, or a transsexual."

As several experts have noted, the book cannot alter doctrine. But Lombardi's comments show that the pope approves of condom use as a lesser evil where there was a risk of HIV contagion.

The Catholic ban on the use of condoms, or any other device, for contraceptive purposes remains. One of the pope's most senior officials, Cardinal Rino Fisichella, told the press conference condoms were "intrinsically an evil".

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/23/catholic-church-condom-use

[freshwest]

134. I'm always struck by how much thought goes into their writings, as opposed to conservative drekt.

I just wonder if in all these deliberations they could come to different conclusions.

I give reluctant credit, in that they are consistent on life - before birth, after birth and at the end of life. Being against war, abortion, the death penalty and euthaniasa in total is much different from the standard American conservative Christianity.

They pray for the fishermen going out to make their catch and they bless animals. But they have a cold heart to other things and have been involved in wars in the past - and may be even now.

I don't feel that they have the answers for all of us or where we're going, though.

[darkangel218]

183. Is this the new pope?

[freshwest]

190. Yup. There he is on the job in Argentina. Thought it caught more personality than some other pix.

[darkangel218]

191. At least hes not so fugly as the old one.

The old pope was scary :[

[freshwest]

197. We may all get that scary if we reach that age, poor man.

Wait till they put that hat on his head and those big robes. That stuff must weigh a lot and the whole thing looks like a life of penance to me. Life has enough work and worry without being forced to do all the stuff they schedule for them daily. There wouldn't be enough money to pay me to do that job. Worse than Mickey Mouse at Disneyland. Uh, huh. No way.

[darkangel218]

208. Maybe they get cookies?

People do all sorts of weird things.

[Myrina]

75. Since when does contraception prevent disease?

Unless the only contraception he approves of are condoms, the labels on the pill all specifically state that it DOES NOT prevent STD's.

Back to the 12th century, ladies ...

[yellowcanine]

20. I am glad it wasn't Cardinal Dolan

That guy scares me.

[Volaris]

159. OMG that's so funny you say that...

I just had a conversation with mom...her take on the New Guy is that he's a bit old for the job, and if there is a Latin American Pope FIRST, then the way is paved for Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York to become the NEXT New Pope...

And THAT would piss me off something fierce. Dolan made his bones as the Bishop fo NY trying to pick a fight with the State over something as (mostly) trivial as HEALTH CARE. And for the record, NO ONE over here in the Volaris Household thinks he would have pulled a stunt like that if the ACA had been passed under a REPUBLICAN President.

[riverbendviewgal]

21. South America pope seems logical

since most of South America practices Catholicism than the rest of the world

[AngryAmish]

22. This is a complete repudiation of John Paul II

He tried to reign in the Jesuit Order and made the head of the order resign because too many Jesuits were associated with left wing politics.

And he took the name Francis --I'm sure after Francis Xavier, who co-founded the Jesuit Order.




very, very interesting

[Stinky The Clown]

29. This guy's a Jesuit?

That's good news.

[AngryOldDem]

33. It is interesting. On many fronts. n/t

[Renew Deal]

49. John Paul 2 made him a cardinal

[Volaris]

161. or, mayhaps, CHARLES Xavier...?

maybe the guy's got some mad skillz the rest of us don't know about yet lol...

But yeah, youre right, the Jesuit Order has (along with a lot of Fransiscians) been trying to save the Catholic Church from its own worst thinkers and decisions for at least 500 years. I wish him much luck, and if hes making good, modern decisions, he will have my support=).

[Laelth]

180. You may be right.

The first Jesuit, the first South American, Benedict resigned ...

The Church may be signalling that it is ready to change. That would be interesting.

-Laelth

[totodeinhere]

181. No his namesake is St. Francis of Assisi according to numerous news outlets. n/t

[2naSalit]

27. wee.

So what is it with these pope guys who have those dark, sunken eyes? Not a judgement just an observation, looks a little spooky is all.

Sorry, not into organized religion but they impact my life anyway, like it or not.

[olddots]

61. may have something to do with no sex

shit I kinda look that way ......

[cbdo2007]

81. Most married guys I know look the same way, so maybe you're on to something.

[TrogL]

83. Are you trying to tell us something?

[Ghost Dog]

94. Makes ya think...

[secondwind]

28. At least he isnt swinging his clasped hands above his head from left to right, like Muhammad Ali.

This is what Ratzinger did.... it was a huge turn-off.

[erinlough]

31. I'm not Catholic, but congrats to the people on here!

He looks like a good leader for a powerful organization.

[DonCoquixote]

35. why this is BAD NEWS

from:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

Liberation theology
Bergoglio is an accomplished theologian who distanced himself from liberation theology early in his career. He is thought to be close to Comunione e Liberazione, a conservative lay movement.

Abortion and euthanasia
Cardinal Bergoglio has invited his clergy and laity to oppose both abortion and euthanasia.[3]

Homosexuality
He has affirmed church teaching on homosexuality, though he teaches the importance of respecting individuals who are homosexual. He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by homosexuals is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".[4]

On April 15, 2005, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against Bergoglio, accusing him of conspiring with the junta in 1976 to kidnap two Jesuit priests, whom he, as superior of the Society of Jesus of Argentina in 1976, had asked to leave their pastoral work following conflict within the Society over how to respond to the new military dictatorship, with some priests advocating a violent overthrow. Bergoglio's spokesman has flatly denied the allegations. No evidence was presented linking the cardinal to this crime.[5]

So, in other words, we have someone who is an enemy of Kircher, enemy of Chavez, and a fascist bigot.

[arikara]

36. I wonder if they all had those white outfits made up

just in case they won.

At any rate, here's hoping for some positive change.

[baldguy]

45. They have 4-5 suits in a range of sizes ready to go, and a taylor on hand to make alterations.

That's one of the reasons it takes them over an hour to present him after the announcement.

[RebelOne]

38. Good. Finally the side show is over. n/t

[magic59]

39. Yawn.......

[gvstn]

40. This does no look promising :(

The new pope is Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Argentina. From Wikipedia:

He strongly opposed legislation introduced in 2010 by the Argentine Government to allow same-sex marriage. In a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires, he wrote: "Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." He has also insisted that adoption by homosexuals is a form of discrimination against children. This position received a rebuke from Argentine president Cristina Fernández de Kirchner, who said the church's tone was reminiscent of "medieval times and the Inquisition".

[NYC Liberal]

44. No one was going to be different there, sad to say.

Was NEVER going to happen (unfortunately).

We can at least be hopeful that he will be somewhat progressive in other areas if not there.

[Renew Deal]

54. I agree

The only surprise would be if is he was even barely understanding of gay rights.

[gvstn]

59. Considering

He talks as if Satan himself constructed the proposed bill, I don't see too much hope for any liberal ideas. Perhaps I have been out of the Church too long but I don't remember priests talking about Satan as if he was physically in the room. That is a little too "true-believer" for me.

At least his demeanor superficially looks more kind than Ratzinger was ever able to muster.

[NYC Liberal]

70. "Liberal" in the church hierarchy is relative.

I don't think I would describe any one of the potential candidates as "liberal".

But people can be surprising once they are elected pope, much like people have surprised after they are appointed to the Supreme Court. Only time can tell.

[Marrah_G]

43. I don't know much about this guy, I am surprised it is a Jesuit

They are more science and progress friendly then most.

His anti-gblt stances are not unexpected.

[CPX7700]

47. Interesting news

I hope his Holiness is better than the last Pope. I am not religious but I realize the importance of this decision. He should be more progressive than previous popes and might improve the Church's image if he encourages reforms.

[Walk away]

48. Looks like the Catholic church found their Marco Rubio!

He'll probably leave the sex crime stuff to the shadow Pope and enlarge that Latin American base!

[ucrdem]

50. Well his Italian sounds fine

and that's the only real entrance requirement. Also he seems comfortable in front of cameras and from what others have said in the thread well prepared theologically and not yet at the point of senility. All this and still well before Easter too. I'd have to call that a job well done!

[okwmember]

66. They said his father was Italian.

[ucrdem]

86. Ah.

I'm hearing from tv that Argentina has half a billion catholics and 49% of Argentines are of italian extraction. With a farm team like that I wonder why it's taken this long!

[Divernan]

142. Argentina was very welcoming to Germans/Italians after WWII.

[ForgoTheConsequence]

162. Half billion Catholics?

They only have 40 million people.

[ucrdem]

171. Ok I just checked wiki and 33 million seems a fair estimate:

There are an estimated 33 million baptised Roman Catholics in Argentina, roughly 89% of the population. According to a 1999 study, 78% of Argentinians call themselves Catholics, though many of these are nominal Catholics who only attend church on specific social occasions (weddings, baptism ceremonies, etc.). According to the CIA Factbook, 92% of the country are Catholic, but only 20% practice their faith regularly (i.e., attend Mass every single Sunday throughout the Liturgical Year).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholicism_in_Argentina

p.s. I must confess that it was Fox but in my defense my better half had it on before leaving for work (I'm stuck at home recuperating from surgery ) ... the good news is I figured out how to turn it off

[Hulk]

51. Good for the Catholic Church

Being an old Catholic myself (who no longer practices due to a myriad of reasons), I'm glad they finally chose someone who represents the majority of practicing Catholics.

[donheld]

52. Elected 31313

[Renew Deal]

60. Interesting

[Ghost Dog]

100. No, elected 13313 (outside USA).

[darkangel218]

209. 1+3+3+1+3= 11

11 is the anticosmic number :p

:p

[earthside]

53. 76 years old???!!!

This organization is clearly not setting itself on a course to enter the 21st century.

So, the cardinals will be back in another 3 or 4 years.

Frankly, if I were a Catholic, I'd feel rather embarrassed that another real old white guy is the best my church can do.

Oh well, since the Roman church becomes more irrelevant every day, all this pageantry is much ado about nothing.

[RebelOne]

63. What is wrong with being 76 years old?

I am 74, so I sense some ageism here. I am not a Catholic, but an atheist, but difference does it make how old he is?

[earthside]

104. It means he is a man of the last century.

Just like when we talk about Supreme Court possibilities ... if the President picks a nominee who is younger, that is a sign that an effort is being made to change/alter the Court for a generation.

Picking a 76 year old likely means putting off the kind of change the Roman church needs for at least another four or five years.

It's not ageism, it is reading what choosing a short timer means.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

127. Pope John XXIII was considered by many to be too old as well. And he only served less than 5 years.

As popes go, however, he was one of the most progressive in recent memory and helped bring along a much needed modernization of the church via Vatican II.

[Volaris]

169. And a lot of people think that's why we will never see his like again in our lifetimes...

he rocked the boat and New things happened, and the Old Guard can't have that, nosiree.

[Ter]

212. After Pope John Paul II lasted like 26 years, they said they wanted shorter reigns

Strange, since he was a highly popular and respected by the church.

[Ghost Dog]

103. Big issue in 21st century is precisely: work for those of us who've had our pensions stolen

by the deeply corrupt anglo-american-zionist financial/warmonger evil system.

[Jim.Rob58]

56. Regarding homosexuality, he wrote in a letter to the monasteries of Buenos Aires:

"Let's not be naive, we're not talking about a simple political battle; it is a destructive pretension against the plan of God. We are not talking about a mere bill, but rather a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God." - Jorge Mario Bergoglio

[Onlooker]

77. That's discouraging

I suppose the fact that he doesn't have Nazi past is progress in today's Catholic hierarchy.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. Same sex marriage: "a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive"

"a machination of the Father of Lies that seeks to confuse and deceive the children of God."

Fuck this motherfucker.

[nonoyes]

69. Another bigot, I'm not surprised. n/t

[nonoyes]

67. 785 followers on Twitter before today, now 22,000+

He had 785 followers when he tweeted this. Announcing he's the Pope. RT @JMBergoglio Inmensamente feliz de ser el nuevo Papa, Francisco I

[HockeyMom]

74. As a former Catholic, Italian heritage woman,

just more of the SAME. Glad I left, and didn't raise my kids Catholic. No offense to anyone who still is Catholic. My choice made when I was 15 in Catholic school, 50 years ago. Don't regret it.

[Ghost Dog]

105. Good choice.

You know.

[Laelth]

79. Pope Francis I

That's a very interesting choice of name. Let us hope the new Pope intends to imitate Francis of Assisi, one of the more liberal luminaries of the Church's history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_of_Assissi

On edit: One source says he chose the name in honor of Francis Xavier.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Francis_I

That, in my opinion, is not a good sign, as the Jesuits (the shock troops of the Pope) were formed to combat the reformation (and did a really bad job at it). Francis Xavier is a conservative Church icon.

-Laelth


Edit:Laelth--updated information.

[JohninPA]

97. I am also betting on Francis Xavier

FWIW, the Jesuits were once considered very conservative and the "Pope's Army", now they are barely considered Catholic. A great many of the dissenters in the church are Jesuits. Check out their publication America:

http://americamagazine.org/

They often promote views that are contrary to the dogma of the church. He seems like a fence straddler to me. An orthodox priest in a heterodox order (liberal and conservative are not used in this instance; either your views are in line with church teaching or they are not).

I think this is the best a progressive Catholic could hope for. The items people up thread are complaining about are not within the dogma of the church and cannot change nor be changed by a pope. Married clergy is the only hot button discipline (not dogma) that can be addressed by a pope. A discipline is something for the good order of the church and not necessarily theologically based. A dogma is something handed down from God and is central to the faith. A dogma can never be changed by anyone.

[Laelth]

147. I am glad to hear that the Jesuits are reformed.

I understand the heterodox/orthodox distinction, but I don't find it very valuable because Church dogma changes (albeit slowly). What's heterodox one day is orthodox the next. Ultimately, I agree with most (but not all) of the Church's teachings. It's the Church's stance on several social issues that bother me (role of women, homosexuality, celibacy of the priesthood, contraception), the ones advanced by people we call liberals in the United States. As such, I am inclined to see those clerics who might be willing to question the Church's stance on these issues as "liberal," merely because that label seems to match what I consider to be a "liberal" point of view in our discourse.

I am glad that you are hopeful re. Francis I. I don't know enough about him to have a firm position yet.

-Laelth

[JohninPA]

99. So progressive of you.

I absolutely love the anti Catholic vibe on the thread.

[Zoeisright]

113. His post IS progressive.

The Catholic Church and all its enablers are regressive. When those old farts you support stop hurting people (and abusing children), you may get more sympathy. But not until that whole disgusting organization cleans house from top to bottom.

[toby jo]

133. Not so much anti-Catholic in origin as pro people everywhere, I suspect.

If you're an atheist, or humanist of any design, you can't help but be there for the spirit present in all man - especially those continently abused by Catholic theology.

I had a talk with an old friend at a gym one day and he wound up telling me I was 'of the devil' when we got to spiritual perspectives. What rot they teach. Demonizing is the most vulgar of human tools, and the Catholics are awash in it.

Both Africa and South America are said to be the only places left where Christianity is growing, it has fallen off drastically everywhere else. Africa and South America share certain cultural traits: poor, misogynistic, scarcely intellectual mind sets. The populations are easy to corral.

I hope Catholicism runs its course through these two continents quicker than the 2,000 years it took to die off in America and Europe. It should help that we are living post 2nd coming - maybe this guy'll come up with some 'theological' excuse about that wee little problem.

[Laelth]

182. Thoughtful post.

You gave me something to think about. Thanks.

-Laelth

[Reno Master]

199. "We are living post 2nd coming?!?"

Please explain.

[Jim.Rob58]

102. a deeply thoughtful response sure to generate further discussion. n/t

[olddots]

89. Its days like today that make me become a more orthodox atheist .

first we hear how progressive he is then comes his record on a real issues .That's show bizz .

[apnu]

91. His Wikipedia page was purged about 10 minutes after he came out on to that patio thing.

I was reading it, refreshed the page and half the content was gone. Thankfully we have the Wayback Machine.

Here's the page before it was purged: http://web.archive.org/web/20120212075714/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

The "Liberation Theology", "Church and AIDS", and "Social Justice" sections were erased. Now there is a "Class equality" section which has no real information but a odd quote with hardly any context.

[Jim.Rob58]

98. Wikipedia is sooo wonderful, isn't it? /sarc

[Ghost Dog]

106. Copied & Archived. Thanks.

[freshwest]

128. Thanks for finding this. I found this part interesting:

Social justice

He consistently preaches a message of compassion towards the poor, but some observers would like him to place a greater emphasis on issues of social justice. Rather than articulating positions on matters of political economy, Bergoglio prefers to emphasize spirituality and holiness, believing that this will naturally lead to greater concern for the suffering of the poor. He has, however, voiced support for social programs, and publicly challenged free-market policies.

http://web.archive.org/web/20120212075714/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jorge_Bergoglio

His position against Liberation Theology (I don't know the merits of that but people did get killed over it, IIRC), not addressing the social injustice that causes poverty, such as lack of land and opportunity for the poor is not hopeful, despite his other positions. I'm not sure how this is going to help anything. He also didn't stop the military junta's Dirty War, but maybe no one could have stopped them.

[bigdarryl]

92. Are we ever going to see a black Pope

Another old ass Caucasian male

[JohninPA]

101. Not sure that race should have anything to do with it.

But yes I believe we will have a black or at least non-white pope soon. In fact I am a little surprised this pope was not African. It seem fun to throw stones at the church, but they are probably one of the least racist organizations you could hope to find. If anything, the church goes all out to be inclusive of all races.

[Moonwalk]

143. We're lucky it wasn't the African; he was even more conservative..

...anti-woman and anti-gay than this guy. I read up on the possible choice of the cardinal from Africa and he was friggin' scary.

And yes, the RCC is inclusive of all races, but let's not give them too much credit for that. The church has done very well exploiting the poor by keeping them poor--i.e. no contraception so women have lots of kids and the family can't get out of poverty. And then the church offers charity, medicine and the only education such poor can get, all of which comes with it's theology. Thus, maintaining its hold over people, and, with the people needing them, becoming the power behind the government, thus controlling all the laws and maintaining their doctrine in the secular world as well as the religious.

Which is not to say that there aren't Catholic priests, nuns etc. who aren't genuinely interested in helping the poor--which is, after all, a J.C. tenent--but only that the RCC as an organization and a theology doesn't support the most important and realistic methods of eradicating poverty--family planning (contraceptives), empowerment of women, etc. It is an awfully rich organization that has always gained followers with its pro-poor message--but that message is typically: "You're poor now, but will inherit heaven" (so let's not rock the boat by trying to change your life here on earth) rather than "let's get you out of poverty."

So, of course they're all inclusive. The poor of the world, the ones they can convert, control, exploit right now are mostly not white. Africa is a very rich gold mine for the Catholic church because of most of its people are poor, uneducated, and already prejudiced in the right way (anti-gay, anti-contraceptives).

[hedgehog]

115. Halfway there?

Black Pope may refer to the following:

Superior General of the Society of Jesus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Pope

[olddots]

145. Msnbc said Catholism is up 7000% in Africa

Yes there should be a black pope

[nonoyes]

110. "during dictatorship...he was very cozy with the military"

Former dean social sciences Universidad de Buenos Aires: "during dictatorship...he was very cozy with the military"


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-pope-succession-bergoglio-idUSBRE92C15X20130313

Bergoglio's vocational success coincided with the bloody 1976-1983 military dictatorship, during which up to 30,000 suspected leftists were kidnapped and killed -- which prompted sharp questions about his role.

The most well-known episode relates to the abduction of two Jesuits whom the military government secretly jailed for their work in poor neighborhoods.

According to "The Silence," a book written by journalist Horacio Verbitsky, Bergoglio withdrew his order's protection of the two men after they refused to quit visiting the slums, which ultimately paved the way for their captur

e.

In 2010, he challenged the Argentine government when it backed a gay marriage bill.

[Zoeisright]

111. Barf.

[yellowcanine]

112. Does this mean the Cardinals are sticking it to the Brits on the Falklands?

The Falklands just voted to stay with the UK and now the Cardinals pick an Argentinian Pope. Coincidence?

[Ghost Dog]

118. Reuters had this to say about the name 'Francis' earlier:

VATICAN CITY | Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:24pm GMT

(Reuters) - Even before he utters his first words in public, the new pope who emerges from the conclave this week will send Roman Catholics around the world a message encoded in the name he chooses.

It may not be one they immediately understand. Picking an unlikely one from the distant papal past - for example, Hilarus or Zephyrinus - would send Catholics scurrying to their history books to see what it could mean.

But one harking back to modern popes - Benedict or John Paul or John - would signal right away the new leader of 1.2 billion faithful wants continuity with the papacy his name refers to.

One name making the rounds in Rome before the 115 cardinal electors filed into the Sistine Chapel for their conclave on Tuesday was Francis, a name Boston's Cardinal Sean O'Malley might take if he emerges as the new pontiff.

O'Malley is a Franciscan friar who prefers the brown habit and white rope belt of his Capuchin order to his red cardinal's finery. No pope has ever taken the name of Saint Francis of Assisi, the 13th century reformer who lived in poverty and told followers: "Preach the Gospel always, if necessary use words."

PROGRESSIVES AND CONSERVATIVES

Leo - Latin for "lion" - tops a list of bets placed with Paddy Power, a Dublin bookmaker putting odds on the next pope, his name and age.

The name has a progressive ring because the last to choose it, Leo XIII, helped adapt the Church to modern thinking about the industrial age during his papacy from 1878 to 1903...

/... http://uk.reuters.com/article/2013/03/13/us-pope-succession-names-idUSBRE92C0LU20130313

[musical_soul]

120. First Jesuit priest.

He takes a vow of poverty, which I find interesting.

He seems to be very adamant about speaking out for the poor.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1481313.stm

Speaking at the church dedicated to San Cayetano, the patron saint of work and bread, Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio spoke of the contrast between "poor people who are persecuted for demanding work, and rich people who are applauded for fleeing from justice".

He has a chemistry degree, so I don't see him spouting that anti-evolution stuff. He's living off of one lung.

It says here he's really humble, sat in the back in Rome. He once washed and kissed the feet of 12 AIDS patients.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2013/03/jorge_mario_bergoglio_argentin.html

I hope he addresses the issue of the priesthood. I would like to see women priests, but I'm more interested in seeing priests allowed to marry. I believe the vocation is in danger of dying out if they don't do so.

I would also like to see him address the sex abuse.

[jeff47]

138. Yeah, nothing says poverty like hiding prisoners in your vacation home. (nt)

[musical_soul]

158. The allegations were denied and never proven.

I would think innocent until proven guilty was a progressive concept.

[Posteritatis]

194. It gets tossed out the window here if it lets people feel rightous and indignant. (nt)

[jeff47]

214. Because he'd happily declare to have done it?

Oh, and they were proven, just not in a court. Lots of journalists went digging around and found all sorts of indication that he did indeed do this.

But charges were never filed.

[Arugula Latte]

164. He's against poverty? Can't wait for him to endorse birth control!!!

My breath is bated ...

[TNLib]

123. I hope the Pope brings progressive Reform to the Roman Catholic church

But I'm not holding my breath.

I'm just happy I became an Episcopalian.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

137. I wouldn't expect anything too drastic, but...

...if there's at least some forward progress, like what we saw with John XXIII and Vatican II, it's a good thing.

I'd love to see females allowed into the priesthood. Probably won't happen soon, but if we at least get married men in there, it's a good start.

[Ghost Dog]

152. Pity the woman who marries a closeted and probably perverted Catholic gay priest husband.

Unless she has a damned good idea what's she's doing, naturally.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

157. Umm, what makes you think that a married man who wants to be a priest.....

.....is either perverted or a closted gay? (As Jerry Seinfeld would say, not that there's anything wrong with the latter....)

My mother's family grew up in the Byzantine (Eastern) Rite of the Catholic Church. It's considered a legitimate rite in the Catholic Church, in full communion with Rome, but has different mass liturgies and customs. One notable thing about the Byzantine Rite is that they have long allowed married priests. My great grandfather was a priest.

And I'll be totally honest here, if the Roman Rite were to allow married priests, I wouldn't necessarily count it out as a career church.

Are you saying that the priesthood would only attract perverts or closeted gays, even if they did allow married priests? I don't follow....

[Ghost Dog]

184. No. I follow you. Almost all current Catholic priests are unmarried...

with, perhaps, the consequences we are observing today.

Let sensible committed married or not men and women with experience of, you know, real ordinary social life, if so moved, join the priesthood, is what I recommend.

Like, indeed, in the Orthodox traditions, which, in my I confess limited experience, I have always found very respectable, convincing.

Peace.

Edit: To be clear: The current crop of Western Catholic Priests are clearly a self-selected cohort who, most of them, knew damn well what they were letting themselves in for, sexually speaking, and wanted it.

[earthside]

130. So basically, another Italian pope.

Whoop.

[DinahMoeHum]

132. Meet the new Pope - same as the old Pope.

As a non-Catholic, color me unimpressed.

From what I'm reading, there are some really serious questions about his station and his role during the Argentine junta of ~1976-1982.

His chosen name may be Francis, but it probably ain't of Assisi.

[Duer 157099]

140. At least now there's a Pope who doesn't look like a total creep

Pope Ratz always made my skin crawl.

[HuckleB]

202. Really, "looks like ..."

[24601]

146. Well, he ain't the Stanford Cardinal.

edit to change "it" to "he"

[JDPriestly]

148. OK, folks. My prediction:

Post No. 15. Well before today's announcement.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2481057

"The next pope will speak Spanish."

Trust me. I know the score.

[Ghost Dog]

153. Hombre.

Hay que tener cojones.

[valerief]

149. How is a filthy rich guy in a fancy gown the "voice of the poor"? nt

[Tx4obama]

154. Some info that you might not have heard yet, below

-snip-

... Bergoglio has focused on helping the poor throughout his career, noting, “The suffering of innocent and peaceful continues to slap us, the contempt for the rights of individuals and peoples are so far away, the rule of money with his demonic effects as drugs, corruption, trafficking people, including children, along with material and moral poverty are big problems.”

In 2001, upon becoming cardinal, Bergoglio “discouraged people from spending the money to fly to Rome to celebrate with him and advised that they instead donate the funds to help alleviate poverty at home.” He lived in a simple apartment, cooked his own food, and traveled by bus instead of a chauffeured limousine.

-snip-

http://thinkprogress.org/politics/2013/03/13/1714691/new-pope-elected/

[valerief]

156. Thanks, but when he's Mother Theresa, I'll listen. nt

[ForgoTheConsequence]

163. She wasn't all that great either.

When your religious institution denies contraception which leads to over population and disease, you're no friend of the poor.

[klyon]

160. oh no not another George

don't trust people named George or Larry

[johnfunk]

174. DISAPPOINTED! Once again,...

... Cardinal Biggles and Cardinal Fang are passed over.

[slackmaster]

195. I couldn't remember his name earlier and said "It's something like Cornholio, but Italian so it ends

...in "glio.":

[olddad56]

207. I thought I had a shot, but alas, I just didn't have the votes. Seems a little suspect to me...

every time they elect a new pope, some catholic guy wins. I think it could be rigged.

[Adenoid_Hynkel]

210. Francis, eh?

Just don't let your bike out of your sight.

[Beacool]

221. Let me explain some things to all of you who have never been to Argentina.

The population of Argentina is mostly caucasian, even more so than the USA. A country that only had about 6 million people received two million immigrants, primordially from Spain and Italy, during the same period of time as we did here. Up until WWII, Argentina was the 8th wealthiest nation in the world. It is still underpopulated at 41M. By comparison, Mexico is a tad smaller and has around 109M people.

My dad was a diplomat and I went to high school in Buenos Aires. I attended a school run by Argentine-Irish nuns (the sisters of Mercy). I love Bs. As., it is not called the "Paris of the South" for nothing. It's a vibrant city where you can browse through old books in used book stores until past midnight. I visit Bs. As. regularly and was just there last September for my school's annual alumni tea. Argentina has socialized medicine and their public universities are free and have been so for decades.

Argentina also has the distinction of having the second largest Jewish population in the Western hemisphere (second only to the US). The majority arrived after the Russian tsars were persecuting them in the late 19th century.

It's not surprising that the new Pope is the son of Italian immigrants, half of the surnames in the phone book in Bs. As. are Italian.

For what I've seen so far of this Pope, I like him. He seems to be humble and to care about the poor.