Pentagon bans 60 mm mortar round after deaths

[Omaha Steve]

Source: AP-Excite

By SCOTT SONNER and TED BRIDIS

HAWTHORNE, Nev. (AP) - A mortar shell explosion killed eight Marines and injured seven more during mountain warfare training in Nevada's high desert, prompting the Pentagon to immediately halt the use of the weapons until an investigation can determine their safety, officials said Tuesday.

The explosion occurred Monday night at the Hawthorne Army Depot, a sprawling facility used by troops heading overseas, during an exercise involving the 2nd Marine Expeditionary Force from Camp Lejeune, N.C. Several Marines from the unit were injured in the blast, authorities said.

The mortar round exploded in its firing tube during the exercise, Brig. Gen. Jim Lukeman said at a news conference at Camp Lejeune. He said investigators were trying to determine the cause of the malfunction.

The Pentagon expanded a temporary ban to prohibit the military from firing any 60 mm mortar rounds until the results of the investigation. The Marine Corps said Tuesday a "blanket suspension" of 60 mm mortars and associated firing tubes is in effect.

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20130320/DA54HBT00.html

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Bunkers are seen at the Hawthorne Army Depot on Tuesday, March 19, 2013, where seven Marines were killed and several others seriously injured in a training accident Monday night, about 150 miles southeast of Reno in Nevada's high desert. (AP Photo/Scott Sonner)

[nolabear]

1. Well hell, can we turn them loose on assault weapons?

[mbperrin]

2. Mortar rounds don't kill people,

only people kill people!

Ask the NRA.

Meanwhile, RIP to those untimely taken.

[Bolo Boffin]

3. I don't know why. Once Iran gets a 3D printer, they can make 60 mm rounds all damn day.

[aquart]

5. Oh, look. You're planning a war with a country that hasn't attacked us.

I suggest you get a topographical map of Iran and get a look at what you're slavering over.

And try TRY not to mistake convenient political bombast for actual aggression. That's what Republicans do.

[Bolo Boffin]

11. Is that what I was doing? I thought I was mocking guns right advocates with a 3D printer fixation.

The things I learn about what I actually mean when I post here - why, I could write a book.

[aquart]

4. NRA doesn't seem to scare them.

[cherokeeprogressive]

6. They didn't ban them; they halted their use pending an investigation. BIG difference.

I love the way some of the respondents here make light of a terrible tragedy. I'm sure their families would just howl at the comedy gold being posted.

[tabasco]

8. Thanks for your concern

[cherokeeprogressive]

9. I'm a veteran just like you. I've seen people die in training accidents.

I witnessed it with my own eyes on the flight deck, and picked up aircraft parts at the scene where an A-6E had a controlled flight into the side of a mountain in the cascades. We were given yellow flags to mark anything we thought was human flesh. Not pretty, and tragic to boot.

Maybe you think it's okay to make comments like "turn them loose on assault weapons", comments about the NRA, and 3-D printers. I don't.

And for what it's worth, my first inclination was that the explosion happened inside a bunker where they were stored. I'm sure you've been to Hawthorne, given your experience. I thought it was a more a storage facility than a practice range.

[awoke_in_2003]

13. And thanks for yours

[tabasco]

7. Tragic

I'm guessing the crew was doing immediate action on a stuck round and maybe evaluators around the tube. Way too many people in the kill radius.

I had two 60mm crews as an infantry commander and always underestimated them -- because I had been a 4.2-inch mortar (much bigger weapon) platoon leader for almost two years.

Jesus Christ. Nevermore. 7 dead from one 60mm round. Fucking tragedy. Fucked up beyond belief.

[The Wizard]

10. Far too many

killed and wounded from a 60 mm mortar. That's some powerful HE, or something else.

[bluedigger]

16. If it was a stuck round then it really is FUBAR.

That would be the worst time to have a crowd around the weapon. IIRC, the drill is basically to lift or detach from the baseplate and have the loader try to catch the round as it slides out. In a perfect world.

See happyslug's post below.

[DallasNE]

20. A Stuck Round Is The Top Speculation I've Heard

Why else would so many people be close enough for there to be 8 killed and 7 more injured. But with a live round would it not be time to evacuate the area rather than huddle around?

Were these marines sent to a live fire drill without proper training on the use of this weapon and the procedures to follow in case of a malfunction. If so, how can this happen? Is there a shortage of trainers and how long has that been the case. In other words is this a money issue. I hope not for the sake of the troops.

[WooWooWoo]

25. even if it was a stuck round, there shouldn't have been more than two people near the tube

the gunner and AG should have gone over the misfire drills and everyone else should have gone back a safe distance. The blast radius of a 60 isn't that large.

I worked in a 120 and 81mm unit, and we had misfires and (near) hangfires from time to time.

Somebody didn't follow procedure with this.

[happyslug]

12. Previous Posting on this tragedy

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1014&pid=429845

Still a debate on HOW this accident occurred, was the Round in the Tube or outside the Tube when it exploded? Right now no one knows. Mere speculation is all I read (and I even posted my own speculation), this can be a product of poor training, a simple accident or something wrong with the Mortar or its Ammunition. Seven dead is a lot for one round of ammunition, but the 60mm round is fully capable of killing that many people all at one time.

[Renew Deal]

14. Is the 60mm a new weapon?

[happyslug]

15. New, in 1978

The US Army is updating it with the new M224A1, replacing some parts with Aluminum and Kevlar to make it 20% lighter. This was a MARINE Mortar so I suspect it is an older M224, new in 1978, not the M224A1 adopted in 2011 and then issued to Special Forces.

As of right now, the M224A1 is restricted to 500 rounds (more to make sure HOW the New Mortar is working, after the inspections of the tube at 500 rounds expected the next inspection to be at 10,000 rounds
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Round+limit+for+new+M225A1+cannon.-a0294194744

The New M224A1 tube is made of "Inconel" not steel:
The tripod (not the tube when the Mortar round is fired from) is made of Titanium and Aluminum with Kevlar joints.

http://www.pica.army.mil/picatinnypublic/highlights/archive/2011/07-05-11.asp

More on Inconel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inconel


Remember, when it comes to new equipment, the "Hierarchy" of supply is roughly the following:
1. Special Forces.
2. Airborne and Air Mobile Forces
3. Regular Army Units
4. Israeli Defense Force
5. US Marines
6. Nato allies, and other top end allies
7. Lower end allies who are engaged in Combat (These sometime jump ahead of the Marines, depending on the military situation).
8. Other Allies.
9, The National Guard and Army reserve.

Thus I the M224A1 MAY be with the Airborne Forces and Air Mobile forces, but not the regular army and I seriously doubt the Marines. Thus we are looking probably at M224, new in 1978

[bluedigger]

17. My ARNG unit was high speed, low drag.

We got all the (appropriate) new stuff as soon as the SF did, because we were the only designated mountain infantry in DOD at the time. We were used as an equipment testing unit and got all the gore-tex, etc. as it came out. We also wore gray berets, although they weren't DA approved. I got to spend almost a month in the Italian Alps skiing with the Alpini.

[happyslug]

18. When I was with the Texas National Guard, they were fairly high on the food Chain, about 10 years

When I was with the Texas National Guard in the early 1980s, they were about 10 to 20 years behind the Regular Army in equipment. Training was frequent and extended due to the concept it would be one of the first units shipped to Europe in times of crisis.

On the other hand, when I was with the Pennsylvania National Guard, we were using equipment older then the soldier's driving them, some dating 40 years old, for the plan for the Pennsylvania National Guard was to be shipped to Europe AFTER fighting had started to act as a mobile reserve to fill in any breech in the NATO line with the Soviet Union.

Thus what a unit was up to and where it was on the supply chain, depended on what was expected of it, if War broke out in Europe. It depends on the Unit and what was expected of them. A lot of Special Forces and related units were National Guard units and thus much higher on the food chain then normal National Guard Units, but us low life leg Infantry units were at the bottom.

When I was in, the Pennsylvania National Guard was a Leg Infantry unit, it is now an Armor unit. The reason for the change was due to the reduction in the size of the Regular army in the 1990s, due to the reduction in military spending tied in with the end of the Cold War, AND the desire by Suppliers of Army equipment to keep the Army buying as much material as it did when it was much larger (i.e. Regular army supplies were freed up for Other users, mostly National Guard Units).

[bluedigger]

19. It was kind of funny.

We had shit for vehicles. They trained me to drive a school bus we borrowed from the state headquarters (ME) to drive the company out to our local training area. (I think our TO & E was a single jeep, two Dodge vans, and a pick up.) We were a serious "leg" unit. Then we would get out there and strap on our Dynastar mountaineering skis with Italian Silvetta bindings while wearing our fancy plastic European mountaineering boots. Everyone got blisters from the boots because they were made on European lasts and were too narrow for our big American feet.

Did you ever use a FADAC? In the 101st we had this huge plastic box that had an ancient computer we had to haul out of our storage conex every six months or so for inspections. I never saw anyone open the box. At the same time we were one of the first units (maybe the first w/ the 82nd) to field the new BCS system, which was state of the art. The Canadians were doing everything important it could on programmable TI calculators, except for texting bad jokes back and forth Secure.

[happyslug]

21. No, but I did drive one of the last Mo-Gas 2 1/2 ton trucks

In the mid 1980s, it was decided to do a mock call up of the Division, we could NOT leave anything behind, every vehicle assigned to our unit had to moved to Fort Indiantown Gap. This included the Diesels, the "Multi-fuels" and the Mo-gas jobs that we still had.

Diesels were reliable for they were nothing but old Mo-gas jobs that had had the gasoline engine removed and a new Diesel and new transmission installed. If I remember right, the Multi-Fuels M35s were gone by then (Compared to the earlier Gasoline powered and later Diesel M35s, just unreliable). The Gasoline Jobs, unless they broke down, were actually better in the field then the Diesel Jobs, their had smaller engines but more power at lower speeds (as going through mud). We finally turned the last gasoline M35s over to the rebuild shop in Fort Indiantown Gap to be converted to Diesel about 1987 or 1989. I loved looking at these old gasoline M25 2 1/2 ton truck's Data plate which gave year of Manufacture, 1946, 1947, 1948. 1949.

We also had several Dodge Pickups. When it was decided to assist Chrysler in the late 1970s, one way the Government did assistance was buy a huge number of Dodge Pickups with Gasoline engines. Due to the fact these all had Firestone 500 tires (Which were know to burst) they had to go in their own convoy at a slower speed then the 2 1/2 ton trucks (The Army had decided to keep the Firestone 500 tires and wear them out, rather then trade them in, for Firestone only agreed to trade them in minus wear on the tire, the Army decided to keep the tires and wear them out themselves). When we arrived at our training site, these Pickups went back to their units. This did NOT stop the problems. We use to joke about them, they should NEVER be taken off hard pavement, Several times I had to drive a 2 1/2 ton with a wench to pull those out of a small mud puddle, Our comments about them was all of them should have been taken down range and used as targets.

We also had M151 Jeeps (the last one we received while I was still in the unit, had US Marines Painted in black on them, this was quickly painted over by the Paint Shop). No problems with the M151s, through my First Sargent did have one turn over on him on the PA Turnpike as we returned from Ft Indiantown Gap (The Army had installed Roll Bars and seat belts in them so he suffered only minor injuries, the M151 was a known killer and for that reason when declared surplus most were destroyed and sold as parts).

Of all the Jeeps I have driven, the M151 was the nicest off road. I never saw one stuck in the mud or had any problems off road. I rarely had a chance to drive one, my unit only had one and that was for the Captain, but when I did it was a joy to drive compared to the M35 2 1/2 ton trucks I normally drove.

Due to the fact National Guard is partly paid for by each state, Pennsylvania wanted to pay the least. During basic I was issued two Field Jackets, one of which I had to turn in when I returned to my National Guard Unit. In my second Winter Camp (Each unit had to have one Winter Camp every five years when I was in), we were to train at Ft Indiantown Gap. For six months we had been told to turn in what we needed in clothing in Preparation for that Winter Camp. We all turned in what wat needed, but the full timers decided it would be easier for them to fill those requests when the Unit arrived at Ft Indiantown Gap. It was also decided NOT to sent us to the Barracks once we arrived at Ft Indiantown Gap, but straight to the field for winter training. The problem is as the Division arrived, a major winter storm hit. Thus you had men in the field without winter clothing in one of the worse winter storms in decades. The men in the unit only had their regular Combat Boots and black rubber over-boats. Temperatures were getting into the single digits with high wind speeds (The Gap can be nasty in winter). After two days, it was decided to pull the Division out of the Field, so they could get their winter equipment THEY HAD BEEN TOLD THEY WOULD GET BEFORE THEY WENT TO THE FIELD. Worse, since I was in an Artillery Unit, we had trucks to be pulled ourselves and our equipment out of the field, which we did. The problem was the Infantry did NOT have the trucks, so they had to wait till we unloaded our trucks and went back out to get them (The roads were so bad, we ended up using the Tank trails instead of the Hard pack roads for then we could use chains on the trucks).

We were then issued Mickey Moose Boots, Winter over pants and other winter equipment, but the weather improved and we no longer needed them. When we arrived back home, we had to turn them ALL BACK IN, and if we retained any, they held our checks for the two weeks training period so they could deduct from the check the cost of the "Lost" items. These Mickey Moose boots may still be laying in some warehouse as far as I know with my name on them to be issued if my old unit was ever mobilized.

Now as to out 105 mm Howitzers, the offices would joke with us about how they had to be rebuilt, even as the plan was to convert the unit to heavier weapons, the 105 had to be rebuilt before put into storage if we ever up graded to 155 SP artillery. On the other hand the old M101A1s we were using always worked as designed.

[bluedigger]

22. That all sounds about right.

I had to drive a duece and a half out on the Autobahn one time to rescue a broken down mechanic that had been left behind in the middle of nowhere. I have no idea why I had to take a huge ass truck to get him. Maybe it was the only thing available on short notice. I was in the Bn S-3 at the time and they just grabbed me and sent me out. I think the only other time I drove one of those was to get licenced on them.

My favorite weird thing to drive was the Gamma Goat, which was our prime mover in the 101st. Six wheel articulated drive and I've still seen them get stuck.

The Chrysler bailout was everywhere. From those little Rampage pickup cars running around Ft. Campbell to the K-car I took to Division headquarters for staff meetings all the time in Germany (I was in the 1st Inf (Forward) and our arty battalion was all by itself an hour and a half from the rest of our command.) I hated that K-car and drove my Jeep on official business whenever I could get away with it.

Mickey Mouse boots... I got to spend a month on an exchange with the Canadians and after using their winter gear I could never take ours seriously again... It was all Mickey Mouse, at least til we got the Gore-tex and polypro underwear.

I went to NCO School in the Guard at Ft. Indiantown Gap. It was pretty in the summer...

[pasto76]

29. Jesus Christ you all are old!!!

I heard about mogas vehicles.....never actually seen them. I'm in my 18the year as a reservist and guard.

Just saying...

[bluedigger]

30. You wouldn't know one if you saw it anyways, kid.

They just take a different fuel.

[Old Troop]

24. Were you in Vermont or one of the other companies?

[bluedigger]

28. Rumford, Maine.

[GreenStormCloud]

23. 60mm mortars were used in WWII.

There have been improvements on the tube and ammunition since then, but the basic weapon remains the same.

[Posteritatis]

26. Very old one. Mortars are about as simple as artillery gets. (nt)

[slackmaster]

27. Any weapon that fires a high-explosive projectile is inherently dangerous

I hope the root cause analysis comes up with a meaningful answer.

[4bucksagallon]

31. 60mm is the biggest that infantry company carry with them.

The rest 81mm, 4 deuce are more for suited for battalion size units. However on occasion we did hump 81mm rounds as a company when on an operation. A 60mm can go with most infantry platoons. Each marine in my unit had to carry 3 mortar rounds on top of all our other gear when we were out in the boonies and were using mortars which wasn't very often. Reminds me of the time the CO wanted to check our claymores and found out we had taken all the C4 out of them, we used it to heat our food. LOL! Claymores were useless and more dangerous to us, than the enemy anyway. But the C4 was way better to heat food with than heat tabs. Sorry for the Marines families hope this all ends soon but it seems the war on terror is going to last the rest of my lifetime, sadly. Training can be dangerous but should not cost lives.