Argentina may defy NY courts with payment offer

[dipsydoodle]

Source: Associated Press

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina (AP) -- With just hours to go before Argentina has to show its last cards in a billion-dollar debt showdown in the U.S. courts, President Cristina Fernandez seems to be keeping up her "we're going for more" motto. Her government is reportedly preparing a response that analysts say could lead the country into another catastrophic default.

Argentina has until midnight Friday to propose how it would satisfy a $1.4 billion judgment won by plaintiffs who have insisted for a decade on getting full payment in cash, plus interest and penalties, on sovereign debt that the country hasn't paid since its world-record default in 2002.

Government officials weren't talking in public about the plan this week, but they have repeatedly said that the plaintiffs it considers "vulture funds" should get no better than what 92 percent of other investors in Argentina accepted in 2005 and 2010 in exchange for their defaulted bonds: a package of new bonds that were initially worth less than 30 cents on the dollar.

The exact details likely won't be known until just before the deadline, but the broader aspects have been widely reported in Argentina's media: Rather than the quick cash payout ordered by the courts, it will offer new bonds that won't come fully due for up to 35 years. And rather than pay in full, the government will insist on paying no more than 30 percent to start with.



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/L/LT_ARGENTINA_DEBT_SHOWDOWN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-03-29-03-47-05

[In_The_Wind]

1. WTF!

[dipsydoodle]

2. I'd missed the fact

that the $1.4 billion judgment had already been won by plaintiffs.

[TexasTowelie]

3. Part of the reason that the Falklands was back in the news.

The government was using the Falklands as a distraction to this bad news.

[Fuddnik]

4. Paul Singer and Vulture Funds.

International collection agencies.

Buy third world debt for pennies on he dollar. Demand full face value, and start seizing a countries assets and aid to collect.

[idwiyo]

5. Tell them to fuck off, Argentina. Am with you on that one. You don't own anything to those vultures.

[COLGATE4]

6. That type of brilliant thinking is what

causes nationa like Argentina to stay economically fucked up.

[idwiyo]

7. Paying debts they clearly shouldn't have any obligation to pay is GREAT for economy!

Because NOTHING stimulates economy more that getting into financial servitude to hedge funds, bond speculators and their ilk. EVERYONE knows its a driving force to prosperity.



You are Genius! THANK YOU for pointing those facts to me! I am going to switch to new nick and call myself Third-Way IDWIYO (following in Third-Way Manny's footsteps)!



PS I doubt I need a sarcasm smilie for the above.

[geek tragedy]

8. So, which money are they supposed to pay back

and which money are they allowed to screw their lenders out of?

[idwiyo]

9. As far as I am concerned, none of it. Argentina is a bit more generous Than I am,so they offered to

pay same rate as they payed everyone else. That's was a damn generous offer.

If anything they should be the ones getting payed for the years of Military Dictatorship sponsored by US.

[geek tragedy]

12. Okay, I guess if they want to go without borrowing money

that's a good idea.

[idwiyo]

13. Borrowing from whom? Hedge funds, money sharks, IMF, others like that? Damn well its a great idea

Not to.

Glad you agree.

[geek tragedy]

14. The flip side to that is that they have to balance their

budget each and every year.

No deficit spending.

[idwiyo]

28. They will manage, I am sure. Funny thou how you so honestly believe that Argentinian taxpayers

Should just pay the debt AFTER what was done to them. VERY touching.

Or did I misread something?

[Judi Lynn]

24. Damned right. The U.S. Gov't owes them 30,000 people back who were terrorized, tortured, murdered.

It wouldn't have happened on that grotesque scale, with such gusto without coaching and deep support from the right-wing-controlled U.S. Gov't.

That reign of terror was unforgiveable. Can NEVER be absolved.

[COLGATE4]

10. I'd love to hear why you believe that

Argentina legally'shouldn't have to pay their obligations'

[idwiyo]

11. Define "legally"

[COLGATE4]

16. What the law requires

[idwiyo]

17. Which "law"? In what country? Who made a decision what should the "law" say? Does it apply equally

to everyone or was it designed to benefit specific group of people at the expense of others?

Some "laws" even you wouldn't dream of defending. A least I hope so.

[COLGATE4]

18. You make it impossible to have

a reasonable discussion with you. Playing with semantics or philosophizing about the 'nature of good' may strike you being clever but adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. You are (I assume) aware the rest of the world operates according to certain norms, principal among which, (at least in a civilized society) is the creation of and obedience to the rules it makes ("laws&quot .

To answer your question regarding 'which law?', the law that concerns us here is the law under which the contract between Argentina and its lenders was executed (and which was agreed to by Argentina at the time of execution). This law, like all others, applies equally to all. Argentina is obliged to honor it and, in doing so, honor the judgment of the court to whose jurisdiction it submitted. It is not free now to decide it isn't happy with its terms and force the lender to modify the agreement.

If you don't like a given law you are more than free to attempt to have it changed by whatever legal means are available to you to do so. What you (and Argentina) are not free to do is to simply ignore it because you are now unhappy with the terms of a prior decision.

[idwiyo]

19. You can't even define which "law" you are talking about. Let alone anything else about it.

And this is somehow my fault?

You insist that I should accept that there is a "law" and everyone should obey it. That's like saying there is a gawd and everyone should believe in it. Just because. Nothing else apply. It's an axiom. Immutable. Just is.

Sorry, doesn't work that way.

BTW, if any of that debt was incurred during or as a consequence of the destruction that Military Hunta inflicted on the country and its people than the bill should be send to the old good US of A.

[COLGATE4]

23. You've achieved a rare distinction.

You're only the second person I've ever sent to my idiot (ignore) list. Enjoy your stay there.

[Judi Lynn]

25. Only lately have I ever seen people making loud public pronouncements regarding their ignore lists.

It has always seemed natural to put someone on "ignore" and then forget it.

Can't grasp how making a loud noise about putting a DU'er on "ignore" is supposed to accomplish anything. If someone doesn't agree with you, he/she won't be bothered if you don't gibber at him in the future. It certainly doesn't shame him. People only have to be acquainted with the posters involved, knowing whom they respect to have a clear view of what happened.

You can't get other posters to dislike someone by announcing you dislike him/her and it's a comical moment if they don't respect you already.

Better to keep some information to yourself.

[idwiyo]

29. I think its the hope that I will not challenge what they say because they "ignore" me. Fat chance.

Will keep challenging their posts and I KNOW they will keep looking.

[Judi Lynn]

32. The suspense will drag them under, and then they look doubly stupid

since they made such a racket about putting you on "ignore!" They prove to everyone they are weak, in addition.

[COLGATE4]

34. Thank you for your

unsolicited input. I will give it the value it merits.

[idwiyo]

27. Meaning you can't present one single valid argument. I am honoured!

BTW, we both KNOW you wouldn't be able to resist to see what I say

[JackRiddler]

38. Your comment indicates shameful ignrance about Argentina...

Which has experienced growth since the default, thanks to the default.

Debt burden destroyed Argentina, and many other nations.

Liberation from debt burdens gave Argentina a chance to survive.

You obviously know nothing about this case, and yet insist on it. Why?

[COLGATE4]

39. I understand. Liberation from debt burdens means:

1- default on your lawfully acquired debt.
2- when pushed to pay, offer pennies on the dollar to those desperate enough to take it.
3- many years later, when those not desperate enough to accept a pittance for their investment sue,
fight it in court.
4- When you lose in court, propose satisfying the judgment with a mix of pennies and promises.
5- When the court doesn't accept your proposal, pout and complain it's just not fair.

[JackRiddler]

40. No, you understand nothing because you obviously

know nothing of the history, which is completely unrelated to your made-up version. It is embarrassing to you that you don't even care remotely what the facts are, that you merely parrot bank propaganda. Where did Argentina's debt come from? Who was responsible for it? Who spent it? You don't know anything about his. Shame, shame, shame on you who would approve the starvation of peoples with a few platitudes. I'm sorry you missed your Dickensian century.

[COLGATE4]

42. You are certainly entitled to your own opinion\

Last edited Mon Apr 1, 2013, 05:10 PM - Edit history (4)

on the matter. But you are not entitled to your own facts.

Instead of responding to any of the points I raised you try to avoid them by calling them a "made-up version". Once again, please educate me as to where any of the points I raised is incorrect or not factual.

Secondly, you attempt to avoid discussing these same points by calling them 'bank propaganda'. Unfortunately for the case you're trying to make these complaints are totally irrelevant to the issue being discussed. It has never been any lender's business as to how the money it lent was spent. The lender's business is solely that of facilitating the lending of money - at the borrower's request- and then expect it to be repaid according to the agreed upon terms. No amount of breast-beating about historical (irrelevant) issues changes those facts in the slightest. And, to be perfectly frank, for anyone over the age of 15 to expect that the repayment of a legally entered into debt between two sophisticated parties should somehow years later be later conditioned upon agreement by the lender to a unilateral modification by the borrower is indulging in pure fantasy.

[Seeking Serenity]

15. So, Argentina should be allowed to borrow money

and then not have to pay it back? Seriously? If that was to be the standard operating procedure, why would anyone in his right mind loan Argentina any more money ever again?

[idwiyo]

20. The a hell of a lot of speculation and exaggeration in yours (and others) questions.

Argentina offered to repay at least some of its debt on the same terms it offered to others. THAT was not acceptable and money sharks decided to run to friendly US courts and demand repayment in full. By what right? Under which law? Etc, etc, etc.

If that debt or par of it was incurred during the Military Hunta rule or as a consequence of that rule than its actually US of A who is responsible for the debt, CIA and US government sponsored and helped to install that regime, not the Argentinian taxpayers.

[dipsydoodle]

21. Their lies regarding their true rate of inflation now

are sufficient to ensure that chances of borrowing on the international market are remote and she screwed her own home market by refusing to pay back local dollar denominated bonds in dollars.

[idwiyo]

22. Maybe it's a great thing they wouldn't be able to borrow anymore.

Maybe it's time to figure how to live without borrowing.

As to the debt, I stand by what I said and my prior posts.

[Judi Lynn]

26. Truly. Their government was run by sociopaths, murderous elitists who were backed by the US,

who terrorized the country, completely destroyed any and all dissent, slaughtered politically unwanted people, destroyed the lives of their loved ones, traumatized their neighborhoods, terrorized the country at large, with total public awareness of the persecution and torture and murder of people who didn't support them, paralyzed the nation with fear, eventually, stole the children of the prisoners, even removed the viable infants from the pregnant political prisoners by Cesarian Section, then took the mothers immediately, chaining them together, naked, putting them into airplanes and dropping them into the ocean, or rivers, etc. The government then went to the trouble to infiltrate groups of the parents whose children had been kidnapped, tortured, baby stolen, grandmothers trying to find out where the babies went, and they then started killing the grandmothers, the "ladies in white" and their supporters.

The right-wing borrowed heavily from US sources, wildly misused the money, privatized utilities, etc., and drove the entire country into the ditch.

When the people finally got a chance to elect a leftist President who started pulling things together, they were faced with overwhelming debt which had been incurred by true enemies of the people of Argentina.

It's downright grotesque hearing people gibbering about how their deep moral sensibilities are offended that Argentina has a problem with what has happened WITHOUT the consent of the people, which they have decided to handle in the best way possible for the country now.

[idwiyo]

30. Money trumps anything for these people. They don't give a shit about Argentina, what was done to it

or what was done to its people. That is just a collateral damage to them. Not worse mentioning I a polite company.

[JackRiddler]

41. By the way, who's doing the "allowing"

Who's the boss, judge and enforcer of this global system of nation-states, since you speak as though there is one ("if Argentina is to be allowed...&quot

[The Magistrate]

31. The Vultures Should Not Get A Dime, Sir

They are not actually creditors, they are not people who lent money; they are simply speculators. The original creditors who sold them paper have been made whole as they were willing to be made. No one has any legitimate cause for action on the basis of holding this bogus, repudiated paper.

[Judi Lynn]

33. Thank you. Really appreciate your post. n/t

[mpcamb]

35. Sure wish this had been the first post...

Hate it when an interpersonal rant takes over.

[bemildred]

36. I'd say that is a safe bet. nt

[dipsydoodle]

37. Argentina offers to pay debts with cash & bonds

http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/qSGN7LbHwJzEN8XKXzgCcA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MTQwMjtjcj0xO2N3PTIxOTQ7ZHg9MDtkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTQwMztxPTg1O3c9NjMw/

http://news.yahoo.com/argentina-offers-pay-debts-cash-bonds-040817493--finance.html