Cleveland police criticised as city asks: why were women not found sooner?

[alp227]

Source: The Guardian

Authorities were forced to admit on Tuesday they had twice visited a house in Cleveland where three women were apparently held captive for a decade, as questions were asked about how the victims remained undetected for so long.

Two of the women, who were teenagers when they went missing, had been the subject of long-running national media coverage, and neighbours say they reported suspicious behaviour at the home over the years.

Police arrested three brothers, one of whom lived at the house in which the women were found. A six-year-old girl, born to one of the victims after she had been captured, was also freed.

The mayor of Cleveland, Frank Jackson, stood before the media at police headquarters and admitted that the case was disturbing. "We are happy that they are returned to us. But we have several unanswered questions. Why were they taken, how were they taken and how did they remain undetected in the city of Cleveland for this time?"

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/may/07/cleveland-police-questions-women-held-missing

[louis-t]

1. This is really starting to bother me....

"Why didn't the police find them sooner?" Anyone who asks that, I will ask "why didn't YOU find them?"

[Blue_Tires]

13. That was my question too, for such a close-knit neighborhood...

[graham4anything]

2. If you see something REPORT IT. People never want to get involved. More security needed

I remember when poor mother and brother of the Unibomber were bombarded with negative comments for turned the extreme terrorist in knowing it was him.
People made really nasty comments about them.

It's like someone once said "All the loners best friends said they couldn't believe the loner did it".

Anything you see suspcious report it.
Best to be wrong, than to be right without saying anything.

btw, these were women...who bought the products they needed and didn't someone maybe think it was funny?

Sure they could soundproof rooms and hide them, but they still needed things.
And one had a baby...how was that hidden when one would figure the baby needed diapers?
Didn't someone in a supermarket think something was odd?

Did they pay someone to shop for them? Did that person not think it was suspicious?

[LisaL]

3. Suspect had multiple children and grandchildren.

So it wouldn't be suspicious if he were to buy female clothing, etc.

[graham4anything]

4. And they didn't think it funny to be buying things for an unknown person?

They must have been abused too one would think

[LisaL]

5. I have no idea whatsoever what they were or weren't thinking.

[LanternWaste]

6. I should be reported for having bought my girlfriend a spring blouse this past weekend...?

"And they didn't think it funny to be buying things for an unknown person?"

I should be reported for having bought my girlfriend a spring blouse this past weekend...? Maybe an idiot would indeed perceive that as a suspicious action implying abuse.

[Blue_Tires]

11. Yeah, because it's not like he could have shopped in the suburbs

or online or something...

[bitchkitty]

30. LOL n/t

[fleur-de-lisa]

12. Umm, what?!?

[fleur-de-lisa]

8. And he could easily go to a store that wasn't close to his home . . .

Very easy to do in a big city . . . just shop in another part of town.

And if he were to shop in his own neighborhood, who would notice his purchases? There is a major store about 6 blocks from my house, and a mall about a mile away, where most of my neighbors and I shop.

As much as I want to believe that I would notice odd behavior and would be able to help someone in trouble, the truth is I never pay attention to who is in a particular store, much less what they are purchasing. I'm too busy trying to remember to buy the toilet paper . . .

[graham4anything]

15. In 2013, one needs to be alert. It could save ones life or someone elses.

Everyone should be everyone elses medic alert

[LanternWaste]

20. What are the clothes-shopping habits of others we should be aware of and report...

What are the clothes-shopping habits of others we should be aware of and report to the authorities if witnessed?

[graham4anything]

22. You are talking about clothes. I wasn't.

the thing about pervs like these kidnappers is, no one reports them

had there been many cameras back then, perhaps it could have been different

[fleur-de-lisa]

21. How do you propose that we be 'alert'?

How would you nab someone who chooses to shop in the next town over to avoid speculation? Should we patrol all the malls and shopping centers and Wal-Marts everywhere in the US for curious behavior?

If you want to start patrolling Wal-Mart for odd behavior, you will have your hands full! Ever been to a Wal-Mart at 3 am? The patrons are not called 'Wal-Martians' for nothing!

I suspect that your friends and neighbors would occasionally find some of your retail purchases a bit odd. I know mine would!

And what the hell does your last line mean: "Everyone should be everyone elses medic alert" . . . is that even English?

[Journeyman]

24. I'm too busy looking for people I've never seen before getting into crop dusters I don't own. . .

"... if you find a person that you've never seen before getting in a crop duster that doesn't belong to you -- report it."
-George W. Bush

[fleur-de-lisa]

26. Ahh, that takes me back . . . what a gem! - eom

[WestCoastLib]

7. Yeah, what kind of man buys diapers?

Why in the world would a shopkeeper think it was odd for a man to buy diapers?

[DCKit]

9. If you want to live in a surveillance state, go find one that will take you.

The majority of us find the U.S. has already gone too far down that road.

[graham4anything]

23. So what angle then is the OP? Did I misread the OP?

[DCKit]

28. Just so you know, many of us now know not to engage with you...

and you don't win if you start screaming "Answer my question. You didn't answer my question!" Every time I come across one of your replies in a thread, it's an affront to everything I believe.

Anyone who advocates for a further deepening of out fascist state doesn't belong on DU. It really is as simple as that.

[graham4anything]

31. Police are damned if they do, damned if they don't. If they bashed down the doors

people would scream brutality.

The fault lies in the people not saying anything.

And the ones that railed against the poor mother and brother of the Unibomber, making them the enemy, when they realized their son and brother was a major home grown terrorist and not a person to emmulate.

Boston showed the people don't hate the police and law enforcement.
The people hate the killers and the guns.(and it showed in the most positive polling of Deval Patrick too.)

[Downtown Hound]

38. Or police could maybe try not treating every young girl that disappears as a runaway

which is pretty much what they did here. In other words stop being lazy when it comes to real crime that takes real work to solve and stop throwing the majority of their resources at victimless crimes like drugs and prostitution.

[DCKit]

44. You asshole... that would require some work....

Can't have that.

[mike_c]

16. I want less surveillance, not more....

You've been all over DU this last 24 hours calling for constant surveillance of private citizens, more cameras in public places, etc. Look, life is inherently risky. Rational people accept those risks. We do NOT need more police surveillance of our private lives, we need LESS. Sure, that means some crimes might go unsolved or even undetected. I'm fine with that.

[jeff47]

35. I think this has to be one of the dumbest arguments I've read on DU.

btw, these were women...who bought the products they needed and didn't someone maybe think it was funny?

This may come as a surprise to you, but I don't keep track of the menstrual cycles of my neighbors.

In fact, most people don't. And that's assuming he provided any "feminine hygiene products". 'Cause we did go a few hundred thousand years before Tampax was invented.

Or diapers, for that matter. You do realize it's actually possible to raise a child without them, right? Or he could have bought reusable diapers once, and had his slaves wash them. If questioned, he'd be buying them as a gift for a friend/family member/what the fuck are you doing asking your neighbors about diapers?

[justiceischeap]

36. If the police would have done their jobs the two times they were called out to the house

these women would have been found sooner. We don't need more security... we've got plenty of security. What we need is better trained security and security that gives a shit.

If the neighbor who reported seeing a naked woman crawling in the backyard would have called the police detective she was encouraged to call, maybe this would have ended sooner but it comes down to the failing of the ample security we already have in this country.

[TheMadMonk]

41. People DID report it. Not a great many, but a few.

It's a well known fact, that the majority of people prefer not to get involved.

That people project their own personal knowledge onto others, and figure that if no one else is saying anything, they shouldn't either.

They assume their own report would be superfluous, becasue some one else must have already reported something so egregious.

It's also well known that people who won't come all the way forward voluntariliy, WILL nevertheless respond to direct questioning.

All this and more is well known by the police, THIS IS WHY THEY CANVAS A NEIGHBOURHOOD when investigating a crime.


The failure was not in the community, the failure was in the way the police investigated the few reports that WERE brought to official notice. They, basically did the absolute minnimum necessary to close out the reports, and did so with the aim of sparing themselves trouble, little to no thought at all seems to have been directed at determining whether there was in fact a crime to answer for or not.

[jakeXT]

10. Oops

Elsie Cintron said she had suspicions after her granddaughter said she had seen a "naked lady crawling in the backyard of his house".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22440877

[Laurian]

14. I saw one of the neighbors say they'd reported strange

sightings at that address years ago, but the police simply left when nobody answered the door. I think we may hear more such stories. I realize hindsight is 20/20, but the Duggard case had several missed rescue opportunities and I'm thinking that may be the case here as well.

[RobinA]

17. Well...It Kinda

Comes down to - life is not an episode of Law and Order. I think we have unreasonable expectations at times as to how police work really is.

[Marrah_G]

18. exactly

[Laurian]

19. In my mind, if more than one such report was received by police,

they should have done more than walk away from an unanswered door.

[graham4anything]

25. ah, so are you are saying the police should have bashed down the door?

then the police would hear the same people whining about police doing that.

Police can't win either way.

[Laurian]

29. No, I'm not saying that. They could have checked

records of previous reports, talked to neighbors, contacted the person at his place of employment, and/or waited at the residence for someone to come or go. If there were several reports and were credible, couldn't they have gotten a search warrant? When something like drug activity, prostitution or child abuse is reported, do the police just leave if nobody answers the door?

If that had been my daughter, I certainly would have expected more.

[Xithras]

37. No, they couldn't have

A search warrant has to be approved by a judge and list the specific crime being investigated AND the type of evidence they're seeking in the search. No judge would ever approve a search warrant issued simply because the neighbors thought a person was "suspicious" and the police wanted to "check it out". Nor should they issue them.

"Drug activity" is a specific crime, and a warrant could be issued for it assuming that there was actually evidence of drug deals (drug traffic spotted, drug arrests from people coming out of the home, etc). You can't get a warrant simply because a neighbor says "I think they sell drugs". Same goes with prostitution, or child abuse.

"Strange noises" aren't even a crime. Even with solid evidence of those noises, you can't show criminal activity and can't get a warrant. You would need ACTUAL evidence (or at least reasonable suspicion with circumstantial evidence) that a kidnapping victim was inside before you could get a warrant to enter the house and check.

The blame being heaped on the local PD seems unwarranted to me. Unless there's more that they aren't telling us, it doesn't seem like there was much they could have done.

[DallasNE]

32. Police Peek In Windows All Of The Time

If a woman and child were reported calling for help only 5 minutes earlier one would think that they would have been peeking in the windows before walking away.

[joshcryer]

40. Dugard's case was gross negligence on behalf of law enforcement.

I mean, I'm not ruling out the possibility that there was negligence here, but from what I see there was no cause to go in that house. I don't see police leaving a screaming woman alone so I think it's likely that they didn't hear or see anything suspicious when they were called. So they, by law, couldn't do anything. This is good.

In Dugard's case, however, witnesses said the perpetrator who was a sex offender had kids living with him in tents. This eyewitness testimony was more than enough to get a search warrant and is a very strong allegation. I suspect in that case the police simply didn't want to do the paperwork.

[DallasNE]

27. The Next Question Is

Was the 6 year old ever violated?

Troubling is one woman that said she called police when she observed a woman and child in a window crying "help". Not sure if she was reading lips or heard "help", doesn't matter. What more did the police need. Indeed, did they even speak with the 911 caller. Did the police seek a search warrant? On the surface, this lead should have had the quality to crack the case open but it didn't.

[Tx4obama]

33. Cleveland neighbour: 'A naked lady in the backyard' (article with video)

Cleveland neighbour: 'A naked lady in the backyard'

Here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22440877


Neighbor says in video that her granddaughter had seen a naked lady crawling in the backyard.
She told police but nothing happened.
And she said she saw a child in the attic window and the child with Ariel Castro at the park.

Also...
Live blog with lots of updates here: http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/amanda_berry_gina_dejesus_mich.html#incart_maj-story-1#incart_maj-story-1

[ellisonz]

42. I think it's an interesting comment on the number of abused children in America...

...that a police officer could be so nonchalant about such a report. It's not a citizens task "to get a detective."

[jakeXT]

34. Cleveland man thinks he witnessed an incident related to the abduction of Gina DeJesus in 2004

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/05/man_believes_he_might_have_see.html

[joshcryer]

39. Fourth Amendmant people.

Every single time someone asks this question when it pertains a guy keeping people prisoner, this is asked. Yes, it sucks that some freaks can exploit this and get away with it, but I'd rather have the small chance of that happening than having police enforcers checking my property every month or every year or something.

(Note: this doesn't apply to Jaycee Lee Dugard because the police had probable cause in that case and should've explored the situation further, a warrant was probably viable there.)

[ellisonz]

43. I think in this case it's more that they didn't even seem to really try...

...and given the things that seem to have been reported it's rather curious. Probable cause doesn't just fall into a detectives lap in terms of these types of cases. Persistence pays off. I was a civil process server for a couple of months and I never served anybody by just taking no for answer. I would talk to the neighbors, check for signs of activity, you know try to follow-up leads to the end.