Border fee for Canadians banned by U.S. senators

[alp227]

Source: CBC

The U.S. won't be introducing border crossing fees at land ports of entry.

The Department of Homeland Security had wanted U.S. Congress to authorize the study of a fee that could be collected from everyone entering the U.S. at land crossings bordering Canada and Mexico.

But the Senate's judiciary committee on Thursday voted to amend the Immigration Reform Bill to ban the fee altogether.

Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy, who chairs the committee, said a fee would stop Canadians from visiting the U.S. and could threaten trade and the economy.

Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/windsor/story/2013/05/10/wdr-border-fees-banned-by-senate.html

[bobclark86]

1. OK...

so that's the one fucking good thing they've done this year. Is it time for another month-long vacation yet?

[DissidentVoice]

2. What a stupid move that would have been

I live in a border city. I see as many Ontario plates as Michigan almost daily. If we didn't have Canadian shoppers our economy would REALLY suck.

They come over, they're almost invariably polite, they don't hassle anyone. Why give them another reason besides CBP guards who since 9/11 have adopted near-Gestapo methods (I've been on the receiving end, and it ain't pretty) to not come over?





We could do with much worse neighbours than the Dominion of Canada.

[MADem]

23. The passport or land crossing card requirement is onerous enough.

It used to be you could cross over and back with your driver's license.

[DissidentVoice]

28. I remember those days

People in border cities would often go to their favourite restaurant across the border for lunch and be done in time to make it back to work.

Not now.

Even though I have a NEXUS card, I've curtailed my crossings by about 75%.

[1620rock]

3. I too live in a border town (Mich.Ont.)

As a recently retired CBP officer I couldn't agree more. The kids comming out of the academy since 9/11 are taught everything but goose stepping.

[Heywood J]

10. I want to say thanks.

All the CBP people I've ever dealt with have been professional and most are reasonably friendly. I imagine the job must have its share of stress - the courtesy is appreciated.

I still remember the one time I got a very nice older gentleman who asked me if I liked the Doobie Brothers (my hair was well down my back at the time). It threw me at first because that's both before my generation and nowhere close to what I was expecting to be asked. I couldn't help but think "are you asking me if I have drugs?" before I remembered they were a band... I must've had such a deer in the headlights look while I parsed the question. The two of us had a good laugh about it once my brain turned back on.

[DissidentVoice]

12. The older ones are generally the best

The older, more experienced ones are generally the best to deal with because they're MUCH more professional.

A couple of years ago my wife and I came back after shopping in Canada. We had an older woman in the customs booth and when she asked us why we were in Canada we said "shopping." She said "Shopping? Did you find anything good?" We just told her what we had and she cleared us.

The last time I went (I now have a NEXUS card) I ran into a surly CBP guy in the NEXUS lane. I had done some shopping and he looked at me incredulously. He said "Nobody goes shopping in Canada!"

I have rarely, if ever, encountered trouble on the Canadian side. I can count on the fingers of one hand the times I've been pulled in for secondary over the last 20+ years. Most of the time it's "where ya goin'...how long ya gonna be here...any weapons? No? OK, good. Have a good time."

[DissidentVoice]

13. Me too

In fact, a couple of years ago I had a discussion with a retired Customs officer.

He retired after 9/11 simply because he got disgusted with the way the agency was going.

About a year prior I got pulled in for "random" secondary coming back from Canada and was detained almost an hour and a half. All I had was a Toronto newspaper and a sealed bottle of acrylic model paint (I build model airplanes). You would not believe the big deal they made about those two items. In the Customs building I was interrogated by three separate officers, one held my passport and was entering shit about me into the computer, which he would not let me see. Finally they let me go.

While I was there, a French-Canadian family from Quebec was also being cleared. The father spoke broken English and the CBP officers were very, very rude to them.

I have never been arrested, have a valid passport (and now NEXUS card) and once held a Top Secret clearance in the Air Force.

The retired officer I spoke to said, "you should never have been treated that way...in the years I was a supervisor if I'd seen one of my people treating a traveller that way their ass would have been in my office getting reamed."

[Daniel537]

38. Yikes. I definitely believe the big deal they made about those items

I've had similar encounters with CBP in recent years as well when coming back from various countries. Treating me like a criminal, making snarky comments during interrogations etc... They just seem to get more rude and unprofessional as time goes on. That agency needs a complete makeover from top to bottom. I can't believe these are the people who are supposed to welcome foreigners to our country. Talk about a first impression.

[DissidentVoice]

42. It's thuggery, no other word for it

One woman I know, who works at a gas station right near the customs station, told me that during one of her periods of unemployment she visited friends in Canada.

When she came back the CBP officer asked her about her job. She answered truthfully that she was unemployed. The CBP jerk said, "so, you're one of those parasites living off my tax dollars, then?"

Complaining to a superior does no good...all it does is make them target you more.

[Nye Bevan]

4. When you drive from France to Spain you don't even need to slow down.

I don't see why the US and Canada should be any different.

[notadmblnd]

5. Where I live you have to stop to pay the bridge or tunnel fee

But I agree, people should be able to come and go as they please across both borders without being stopped and searched by border patrol. I've found that the Canadians are much more relaxed than the Americans. the American border guards always seem to want to give people a hard time.

[pampango]

7. Damn "open borders liberals".

France-Spain, France-Germany, Germany-Poland and all the other European shared borders are "different". The US is unique, dare I say - "exceptional".

[DissidentVoice]

14. Schengen

It's because of the Schengen area...crossing in those countries is little different from crossing a US state line.

That will never happen here, least of all because of the Republican border zealots.

[MADem]

35. Well, European nations all have the same money now--the wingnuts would go ballistic if we had

a North American equivalent of a "euro" in our wallets. The European Union is just that--a union. We have trade partnerships, but we're not as "unified" as Europe is, not by a long shot.

I can remember when Europe wasn't unified--and the lines would sometimes get long crossing from country to country, depending on time of day and time of year. You used to have to stop at every European border and show those PAPERS...let me see your PAPERS!!!! Then you'd have to get money. Your Spanish pesetas were no good in France, and your Francs were no good in Germany, and your Deutschmarks were no good in Italy....and I still have a drawer full of old Lire somewhere!

One currency does make it easier to hop from country to country....except when you get to UK, where it's back to the pound (though some shops will take your Euros, like some shops in USA on the border will take Canadian money, and Canadian shops will take US dollars--you don't always get the best rate, though).

[Art_from_Ark]

37. But when you drive from France to Switzerland,

you have to stop at the border crossing.

[hrmjustin]

8. Welcome to DU my friend!

[Posteritatis]

9. Gee, I can see no way in which such a fee could screw things up

Big ol' tollbooths at the end of the 401, billing on a per-person basis? That wouldn't screw up the busiest highway in the continent at all, would it?

Don't you love how these sorts of policies are always proposed over the objections of anyone near the border, incidentally? I've never heard of anyone in the border states' governments supporting anything like this, and there's good reason for that.

[Earth_First]

11. Its just too bad that US Americans cannot reciprocate the economic benefits of travel...

across the border.

I mean, we can, however that requires us Americans to apply (and pay for) passports and/or Enhanced Drivers Licenses in order to do such.

I am sure that this requirement is an impediment to many who would ordinarily take a day trip or long weekend to Canada based on the hassle and additional cost to do so. It does/did for us.

We live an hour from Buffalo and would go up to the Canadian side of Niagara Falls at least two or three times a year with at least one trip to Toronto for a concert or performance.

However we haven't been in some time and the American side of The Falls is abysmal.

I'm sure we are not the only ones...

[DissidentVoice]

15. Thanks be to Bush

Before Bush, you could cross with a driver's licence/birth certificate. I did many times, until I finally got a passport.

Bush changed that in the interest of "security."

Now, even though I have a NEXUS card, I still get hassled coming back. I rarely, if ever, have had trouble on the Canadian side.

[MADem]

24. "Enhanced driver's licenses?" WOW--ya learn something new every day.

Another 'Why I love DU" moment!

The following states are issuing this type of WHTI-compliant document: Michigan, New York, Vermont and Washington.

http://www.getyouhome.gov/html/lang_eng/eng_edl.html

Maine should start doing that--half the people on or near the border have family on the other side!!!

I never knew about these--I only knew about the land crossing cards--and I know kids who have those.

I know a few families that suffered considerable economic hardship to be able to afford those things, in order to visit their grannies and cousins in Nova Scotia.

I used to just drive to Canada when I would be up in ME and cross over with no issue to go have dinner or go to the movies or just stop in for a visit with friends. Those days are long gone. It's a frigging "event" now, and if you're travelling with a single person who doesn't have a passport or card, it screws the planning.

[DissidentVoice]

30. It's the same way here in Michigan

I live within walking distance of the border. I've lost count of the people I know who are dual-nationals.

[MADem]

32. There are tons in Maine, too,and even in NH (which has dual language welcome signs French/English)

You get down into Massachusetts, and you'll find towns and cities with HUGE numbers of people with French-Canadian names, but most of them are citizens, but some still with US cousins over the line.

[DissidentVoice]

40. Bienvenue aux Etats-Unis...

They have that sign at the CBP facility, even though western Ontario is overwhelmingly British...you don't really start hearing a lot of French until you get east of Toronto.

However, their behaviour does not match their "welcome" sign.

There are also a few sporadic signs on the freeways nearby that have both miles/km.

[Sunlei]

16. with the mexican pogroms they killed the border businesses to the south.

would be really a dumb economic move to fence out (cost taxpayers trillions to fence) and charge border crossers to the north.

Besides thats how most immigrants with a couple bucks borderwalk into America these days as Canadas air flights aren't restricted at all for countries like Cuba. No passports needed.

[GetTheRightVote]

17. With bombers like those in Boston living among us..

we do need to be a little more careful of who enters into our country. To believe otherwise is being naive, bad people are entering this nation every day and we should try to keep them out...

[DissidentVoice]

18. There is no reason for them to behave the way they have

If you'd been on the receiving end of it (I have) I think you'd be singing a different tune.

They know they cannot bar a U.S. citizen from entering/reentering the country...but they can sure give him/her a hell of a hard time.

A friend of mine living in Canada, a British citizen, will not come here now. He has no police record, but he says "I will not submit to being treated like a bloody criminal with retinal scans, fingerprinting and all the other bullshit just to satisfy the U.S. Republican Party."

Look for it to get even worse when another Republican president is elected...as it is, the GOP wants to turn our borders into something akin to the old East German border.

You can already be pulled over by CBP for any or no reason within a certain distance from the border zone "just because." I've seen it. You can also be stopped before leaving the country for them to check you, again for any or no reason.

The Boston bombers were naturalised U.S. citizens. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols were native-born U.S. citizens.

[MADem]

25. Only one of the bombers was a US citizen. Tamerlan was denied citizenship because he belted his

former girlfriend.

Also, your British citizen friend should try going home--it's no picnic getting into UK these days. He needs to realize his passport was issued by a Glass House, so he might not want to go throwing stones.

They have the IRIS scan thing: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/customs-travel/Enteringtheuk/usingiris/

and fingerprints: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/customs-travel/Enteringtheuk/fingerprint-checks-at-border/

If he's a UK passport holder he won't have to go though that, but his visa-carrying pals from other countries will. Go on a student or work visa scheme, and US card holders get "the business" too.

It's not just USA and "the Republicans" who are doing this stuff nowadays. This is the way of the world, today.

[DissidentVoice]

29. He holds a British passport

He is a permanent resident of Canada, married to a Canadian.

He has never become a Canadian citizen because he says "I was born loyal to Queen and Commonwealth...why should I take an oath confirming my birthright just to get a different passport?" Canada is, of course, part of the Commonwealth with Queen Elizabeth II as Head of State, and Canadians are Commonwealth Citizens.

He has been back to the UK since 9/11...several times.

I know several people (US citizens) who have gone to the UK. Yes, it is more rigorous (if you're not an EU or Commonwealth citizen) but nothing approaching the tactics of US CBP.

My original assessment of CBP conduct stands.

[MADem]

33. If you are not a member of the EU/Commonwealth club, or the "Special Relationship" partnership on a

tourist holiday (not a visa, work or student, or on military or diplomatic travel orders), the treatment you get from UK border/passport control is EXACTLY the same--they make people give fingerprints when they get the visa, and those fingerprints are "associated" with the visa and checked AT the border, so there's no passport swapping going on. You do get the "20 questions" about why you're here, where you're staying, how long, what do you do--all designed to make sure you are who you say you are.

I used to work in UK, and even on a US red passport, I got a bit of a grill when I went in BEFORE Nahn Wun Wun. And that whole "packed your bag/with you at all times" stuff was going on in UK way before USA, as a consequence of Lockerbie.

One country isn't "better" than the other in this regard--they're ALL doing it. In fact, USA stole some of their methods from UK, as well as Israel.

They aren't terribly sunny in Italy, either, for that matter, at the International Terminal at Da Vinci--it's de rigeur to see Carabinieri guys (and gals) with submachine guns, strolling amongst the queuing passengers. Same deal with Greece--it's guns-a-plenty there, too.

This whole idea that USA is "worst" at border crossings is just not true. It sounds like a good gripe, but they aren't the only jerks in the game by a LONG shot.

[DissidentVoice]

41. It's the behaviour I object to

I don't believe I ever said the USA was the "worst" at border crossings (I've heard that title should go to the Israelis)...but that since 9/11 they've become increasingly "thuggish."

Questions about why you are entering a country are relevant. Doing things like dragging an elderly Canadian couple out of their car (which happened nearby about three years ago) are not.

Questions to a returning U.S. citizen about where were you, how long, anything to declare, etc. are valid. Making smartass remarks about not believing you because "nobody goes shopping in Canada" (which happened to me) are not.

[MADem]

44. I'll tell you, I've dealt with surly Brits and Italians...

And don't even go to the Caribbean when some of those guys are having a bad day--and those are supposed to be guys who are greeting money-spending tourists. Even leaving Puerto Rico, the fruit-n-veg cops can be very aggressive.

I suppose it depends on the exchange rate if someone wants to shop in Canada--I wouldn't have taken offense, I would have told the person what I bought. Why pay more for stuff that's cheaper on the other side? It really is a valid question--the questioner might have thought you were lying because "shopping" didn't make sense if the exchange rate wasn't favorable.

Something similar to that happened to me, actually. I found a great deal on Melitta Style coffee filters -- the larger Number 6 size, which can be expensive--at a Canadian Tire, during a time when the exchange rate was very unfavorable for the dollar. I bought a bunch of 'em, and I got a similar inquiry when I told the customs official that I went to dinner, a movie and Canadian Tire. "What the hell did you buy at Canadian Tire?" he asked. I told him--I said even with the shitty exchange rate, I was saving a buck a pack easy, because the things were deeply discounted. I bought so many of 'em I still have a bunch left over.

I am an expert at being harassed by 'officials' despite a long career working for Uncle Sam--or maybe because of it, I don't know. For the entire Bush Administration, I was shaken down by the tub stacking assholes (TSA), perhaps because I had a name similar to one they were looking for; not really sure. Every single time I flew, I got "the treatment." Every. Single. Time. When Obama was elected, it stopped. Boom--overnight. I haven't been bothered since. I fly like every other sap, but I don't get singled out for extra fun anymore.

I do know this--the more 'tude you give, the more you get. And if they've made up their mind that you're "The One," the only thing you can do is behave professionally and write a letter of complaint. If the gripe is sufficiently egregious, they'll investigate it, and even review the video.

[DissidentVoice]

45. I've been crossing the border for almost 30 years

...and never once have I given an officer on either side "the 'tude."

I have a friend who has a hobby/craft shop in Canada (the British guy) and that's where I go. He can get stuff made in the UK that, because it's sold in Canada, I can get for cheaper than here most of the time.

I always, without fail, have my receipts with me and have never failed to declare anything. I keep all my purchases on the car seat beside me. Nothing is hidden.

I have no criminal record and am a veteran who held a Top Secret security clearance in the Air Force. Basically, I'm probably "cleaner" than some of the people CBP hires.

Make a complaint? Sure...if you want them to REALLY target you.

[MADem]

46. I have no criminal record either, but I have spent time in squirrelly countries.

Sometimes at the behest of my government, but I suppose that doesn't matter.

30 or 40 years ago, you just waved going into Canada, pretty much. There were a few places where no one guarded the border, as I recall.

Nahn Wun Wun changed ever'thang, though. We find ourselves on lists. Sometimes, we don't even know what list we're on. As I said, I spent seven years of the Bush regime getting hassled, and then poof--one day it just stopped.

You might be on a list. You can have no criminal record, be a veteran--hell, a careerist retiree, even, with a TS/SCI, and be unfailingly polite, and you can still end up on a list for whatever reason. You can either gripe, or put up with it. You might end up doing both, but at least you tried.

[DissidentVoice]

47. Again...thanks be to Bush

Bush's border changes aren't affecting terrorists one bloody bit. A terrorist is not going to be likely to come through a well-staffed land border, like Detroit, Blaine or El Paso.

They're going to be more like Richard "Shoebomber" Reid or "Captain Underpants," the joker that got nailed at DTW.

I often see the Border Patrol types in their SUV's, looking across the river at Canada and think how bored shitless they must be...and then I do go to Canada and don't see CBSA vehicles parked looking across at the USA.

These "lists" that the Bush regime cobbled together half-assed (like virtually everything else he did) have been more of a hindrance than a help. Frankly, 9/11 has become an excuse for authoritarian policies, which have effectively made this country's borders closed for those who want to cross legally. So many people are deciding "it's just not worth it to put up with the bullshit from CBP" and staying in the U.S. Living in a border city, I know of so many people locally who have curtailed going to Canada for that very reason, because they don't want to be treated like criminals coming back into their own country.

One of my biggest disappointments with President Obama is that he hasn't called for repeal of the USA Patriot Act, or at least curtailed its abuses.

I was never just "waved through" into Canada. It was more like "US citizen? Got any ID? Where ya going? Any guns? OK, have a nice time."

Frankly, it's not a lot more than that now going into Canada. It's just that now they run your passport before asking any questions, and the questions they ask are still pretty much "where do you live? where are you going? what are you going to do in Canada? do you have any weapons/guns/pepper spray? OK, have a good day."

The only places I know of where it was like you say were places that actually straddled the border, like Derby Line, Vermont/Stanstead, Quebec.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derby_Line,_Vermont

[MADem]

48. I think they're nicer to folks up in Maine. It could be a regional thing.

Even the guy who got farty with me about Canadian Tire wasn't unbearable.

I've also found that if you chat them up a bit, they'll either be nicer to you or not want to talk about themselves, and wave you through. Try asking them about a career in border patrol; what's required, how to apply, how competitive, etc. Tell 'em you have a friend or relative who is interested. It might work!

Once I got stopped at one of those set-ups on the highway within the border limit--I leaned out of my window, expressing great interest, and in my best Merv Griffin imitation I said "Eeeeeeeeeewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!! What's going ONNNNNNNNNNNNNN?" Then I proceeded to ask all sorts of ragtime questions, like "Are you looking for a criminal? What does he look like? Is there any way I can help??" and the guy just said "Nope, naaah," and waved me through.

People who are interested in doing something "illegal" through the border with Canada would be well advised to make friends with some of the tribal people who live along the border. That's how criminals and smugglers make their way over the line, and there aren't enough tribal police to combat that kind of thing. That's the primary route for illegal agricultural products in some parts of the country.

If Obama called for repeal of the Patriot Act, the House and Bonehead would have a field day. After all, only a "traitor" would want to repeal the "Patriot" Act, is how they'd paint it. "Obama doesn't care about the terrists!!! He must be one of 'em!" He gets that anyway, why give them more ammo? It's just a no-winner for him.

There's a place in Minnesota that isn't connected to the USA but is US territory, called "Jim's Corner" where they just call it in when they go over the border--hilarious.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Angle



Reporting booth at Jim's Corner. Upon entering the
Northwest Angle by road, the traveler must enter the
booth and report to U.S. Customs via videophone.
Before leaving the Northwest Angle by road, one must
report to Canadian customs from the same booth.

[DissidentVoice]

49. Point Roberts, Washington

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point_Roberts

I often thought it would be fascinating to live here pre 9/11. Now it seems it would just be a glorious pain in the ass. The residents there have to go through Canada to do almost anything.

[Sunlei]

19. Those boston brothers were 'made in america'

[cali]

20. that's a little disingenuous. After all, Tamerlan was 16 when he came to the U.S.

Or don't you think that what happens in our lives prior to 16 is of any importance?

[Sunlei]

21. of course not. but millions of people have pre 16 issues and it doesn't make them change like that

[2ndAmForComputers]

22. I lost neurons reading that.

[COLGATE4]

27. It's stunning that there are posters

who think like that on DU.

[DissidentVoice]

31. It's even more stunning

that there are posters on DU who think the CBP's conduct is excusable, even "needed."

[MADem]

36. Not the first gem from that individual, either. nt

[DrDan]

26. stupid stupid stupid - what a prime example of how NOT to treat your friends

[CreekDog]

34. I'm not going to pay to be treated the way CBP officers have often treated me

Oh no.

Some have been friendly and courteous, but that's not the norm.

The Canadian customs folks have always been friendly, same with pretty much every border agent I've encountered in Europe too.

You know what's the most ironic? The worst experience I had was *leaving* the US, I was stopped before the Canadian border by US CBP who opened my hood and looked throughout the engine compartment, even opening parts of the engine, they inspected my trunk and grilled me.

Getting into Canada moments later? Like nothing.

[Daniel537]

39. It really is amazing how bad CBP treats travelers

Its like they're trying to discourage people from visiting. I've gotten better treatment from immigration agents in Cuba than i do here in the US.

[DissidentVoice]

43. Happens here too

It's almost de rigueur to expect CBP to stop you before you leave US territory.

As I've said, I have very, very rarely, in almost 30 years of border crossing, had trouble with the Canadians.

The last time I got pulled into secondary there was a couple of years ago and it was some young kid in the booth (turns out it was some sort of college internship setup). I got out of my car and a couple of older CBSA agents came up, said "good morning" and asked for my passport. They looked at it, said "is this your car?" and I answered yes. They released me, with an apology, saying "you shouldn't have been pulled in."

As I was getting into my car they were both heading for this kid's booth...I'm betting he got a good straightening-out.