Medicine's big new battleground: does mental illness really exist?
Last edited Sun May 12, 2013, 07:20 AM - Edit history (2)
Source: Guardian
<snip>
And now, in a significant new attack, the very nature of disorders identified by psychiatry has been thrown into question. In an unprecedented move for a professional body, the Division of Clinical Psychology (DCP), which represents more than 10,000 practitioners and is part of the distinguished British Psychological Society, will tomorrow publish a statement calling for the abandonment of psychiatric diagnosis and the development of alternatives which do not use the language of "illness" or "disorder".
<snip>
"The statement isn't just an account of the many problems of psychiatric diagnosis and the lack of evidence to support it," she said. "It's a call for a completely different way of thinking about mental health problems, away from the idea that they are illnesses with primarily biological causes."
<snip>
"We are not denying that these people are very distressed and in need of help. However, there is no evidence that these experiences are best understood as illnesses with biological causes. On the contrary, there is now overwhelming evidence that people break down as a result of a complex mix of social and psychological circumstances – bereavement and loss, poverty and discrimination, trauma and abuse."
<snip>
Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/12/medicine-dsm5-row-does-mental-illness-exist
Time zone note: according to other news articles, the statement will be released Monday in the UK (British time zone), not sure when that will be in the US time zones.
EDIT: I posted the wrong link, changed it to the article I actually excerpted from, which has much more information.
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BainsBane
(53,016 posts)everything medical researchers have discovered in the past thirty years. It sounds like psychologists trying to stake out terrain without regard for the well being of patients.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,325 posts)Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)The OP does not contradict everything medical researchers have discovered in the past thirty years. It may sound like psychologists trying to stake out terrain without regard for the well being of patients, but that is not the truth. They do care about the well being of their patients and that is why they are speaking out. Studies have shown that psychotherapy has about the same effectiveness as seeing a psychologist or seeing a social worker.
JustABozoOnThisBus
(23,325 posts)I don't doubt the regard of psychologists for their patients. But it seems the group in the article is seeking to deny any role of genetics in mental illness.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)
Skittles
(153,122 posts)
bananas
(27,509 posts)I was reading several articles about this and pasted the wrong link in.
I've edited the link to the article I actually excerpted from.
It's a much better article with a lot more context.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)Psychological weapons cause psychological damage. So classifying mental illness as some sickness, like a cold one picks up, can be really misleading when there is a real environmental cause - like abuse of the individual - for their mind state.
Also this:
The statement effectively casts doubt on psychiatry's predominantly biomedical model of mental distress – the idea that people are suffering from illnesses that are treatable by doctors using drugs.
I remember this great episode in The Sopranos when Tony was experiencing depression, the pangs of conscience and whatnot about his lifestyle... And talking to his shrink, the way to treat it was basically through meds. Get him happy about what he was doing, rather than allow him to wonder if the sadness has a cause. It showed the bankruptcy of the whole model.
Maraya1969
(22,464 posts)mental illness with the mind is you are using a damaged tool to fix a damaged organ.
My body literally speeds up. Not just my mind but my movements and my speech. I highly doubt someone could "talk me down" from a state where I can have all the energy in the world on 2 hours of sleep a night and absolutely no down time. And especially when I have had these episodes and been extremely happy. Mania can be a very pleasant experience, for a time, and then it is like you went on a drunken bender and woke up to see the damage you have caused in your life AND your energy and happy mood have all of a sudden turned into inertia and sadness.
But there is some learning involved. When I notice or more likely others around me point it out that I am starting to speed I can force myself to take extra medication like I have been taught.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)And yeah, I've been there. What I'm saying is that we should look holistically at the whole cause of a persons illness. I've experienced depression, for instance, for no good reason whatsoever. And I've experienced it for worldly reasons, life issues that needed to be dealt with. Meds were the right solution in the first case, but in the second I really needed to deal with those worldly issues. I hear this article acknowledging is that worldly issues can invoke mental health symptoms, and that's good to hear. That's not to say they always do: It sounds like with your mania, its really an internal process that goes on its own, without anything making you really happy or down.
Alkene
(752 posts)...and to "look holistically at the whole cause of a persons illness," should be the case for every health care interaction.
Junkpet
(40 posts)...all mental illness with meds is that you, in many cases, are treating the symptoms and not the causes of the illness.
bhikkhu
(10,713 posts)...that mental illness wasn't a biological condition, or (at the time) certainly not a possession by spirits, but simply a matter of "thinking wrong". Once reality is explained and once proper behavior is agreed to, the problem disappears.
As has been noted elsewhere, anyone with experience with mental illness knows this is a crock - it didn't work before, and I doubt that they can insert enough caveats for it to become a useful perspective now.
Liberalynn
(7,549 posts)This is just going to lead to more sterotypes, more fingerpointing and more "just get over it" which is not helpful in the least.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)There's this basic truth - extremely mentally ill should get meds. Meds save lives (especially in the case of suicidally depressed) and meds stabilize people.
I've taken meds myself when I needed them, and gotten off. I'm glad they are there.
BUT there's more to the picture. Both my partner and myself work with mentally ill, and we notice the ubiquitous histories of abuse. We also notice people who just get meds thrown at them, and end up sedated and obese... When the best therapy in many cases would be less meds and more positive life changes.
And what's NOT a biological condition when you use a broad definition? Life is a biological condition. However, there's no blood test for PTSD, its a reaction to life circumstances. If you don't take a holistic view of the individual, you'll miss their story, who they are, and what their mind state is about in that context.
When somebody sees horrible violence against people the cared about in a war zone and comes back with PTSD, are we saying "Don't worry, your reaction to violence is a biological disorder, take a pill" or are we saying "take this pill if you need to stabilize, but your reaction to what you see is natural for many people". I think the second is better therapy and better care.
OrwellwasRight
(5,170 posts)Your position denies the success of Alcoholics Anonymous and similar Twelve Step programs. Those aren't about drugs. They are in fact about changing your patterns of thinking, speaking, and acting. You certainly can learn to think differently and respond differently to the same stimuli. In fact, I would argue that learning to change your own patterns of behavior is the only thing that will ever truly solve depression. Taking drugs just covers it up.
And don't tell me I don't know about mental illness. I certainly do and have no desire to parade my family's multiple tragedies and challenges out on DU to prove myself to you. How about a simple "I disagree"? Or even an "I disagree for multiple reasons, but I won't belittle you by saying your opinion must be due to your lack of experience with mental illness. I respect your right to have what in my view is a wrong opinion and won't belittle it by making wild judgments about what your experience must have been."
bhikkhu
(10,713 posts)and there have been times that I would have completely agreed with them. I suppose the simplest elaboration of "what's changed" is that there are different varieties of mental illness, and differences in an individual's capacity to deal with mental illness. As in AA, the most important step is the first one, but one has to be ready, and to make it deliberately. Lots of people never get to that point, and there are varieties of mental illness that prevent people from getting to that point.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)
DebJ
(7,699 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)Make them have good blocks of sleep for a couple of days.
Anyone trying to live with no sleep or not enough sleep will get worse not better.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)normal sleep brain rhythms.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)To go without decent sleep for days or even weeks, months will make any person sick.
Anesthesia for a couple days(under Doctors care) also is a treatment used for persons hooked on serious drugs to break the addiction.
Sleep heals. I don't think the answer is to give persons more rx drugs especially if its not making them better. They even seem worse because of the lack of decent sleep.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)Anesthesia can be very dangerous. In my case, my liver/kidneys cannot effectively remove these types
of drug from my system as they should. Had my tonsils out in second grade; I was supposed to wake up in
hours, but I was unconscious (ie, not 'sleeping' but unconscious) for three days. They told my parents I might never wake up. Had local anesthesia to get a finger stitched up; the finger was numb for the better part of a week. Had my gall bladder out two years ago at 10 am. Was supposed to be up and out by the afternoon. But it was 6am the following day before I could even urinate. I insisted on going home even though they did not want to release me....I have no memories of the following three days.
General anesthesia does not induce 'sleep'.
It does not cure mania, nor the triggers for mania. Every spring as the days lengthen, this causes chemical changes in the brain due to the additional hours of sunlight. Anesthesia is not the answer. And it is dangerous.
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)DebJ
(7,699 posts)"While natural sleep normally cycles through a predictable series of phases, general anesthesia involves the patient being taken to and maintained at the phase most appropriate for the procedure, and the phases of general anesthesia at which surgery is performed are most similar to states of coma. "People have hesitated to compare general anesthesia to coma because the term sounds so harsh, but it really has to be that profound or how could you operate on someone?" Brown explains. "The key difference is this is a coma that is controlled by the anesthesiologist and from which patients will quickly and safely recover." "
http://www.news-medical.net/news/20101230/General-anesthesias-similarities-with-and-differences-from-sleep-and-coma.aspx
There are many ways to try to help this family member sleep, but using drugs like Ambien or anesthetics isnt the answer to a reoccuring problem.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)Both sleep and general anesthesia show
a hypnotic effect, but, even at first glance,
also have important differences. First of all,
general anesthetics inhibit parts of the brain
which are required for REM sleep cycles
http://www.loria.fr/~huttaxel/filez/Hutt_FN09.pdf
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The Body under General Anesthesia Tracks Closer to Coma Than Sleep
Studying brain waves and physiologic patterns in patients under general anesthesia might help researchers build new neurological models of disorders, such as comas and insomnia
By Katherine Harmon
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DEEP SLEEP?: Some anesthesiologists are arguing for a shift in the way we think--and talk--about "going under." Image: ISTOCKPHOTO/SISTER SARAH
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Patients undergoing significant operations, such as major cardiac or transplant surgery, typically require general anesthesia. But putting patients to "sleep" might not be the best way to describe the process, argued the authors of a new review paper, published in the December 30 issue of the New England Journal of Medicine.
What anesthesiologists are really doing is closer to putting patients—close to 60,000 each day in the U.S.—into a drug-induced coma. "It's a reversible coma, but it's nevertheless a coma," says Emery Brown, a professor of anesthesiology at Harvard Medical School and coauthor of the paper.
General anesthesia before major surgery dips brain activity (as measured by electroencephalogram, or EEG) down to levels akin to brain-stem death. For the most part, Brown has found that anesthesiologists talk about the process in colloquial terms, telling patients they will be "asleep," rather than "unconscious"—likely in an effort to not make a medical ordeal any scarier than it already needs to be.
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=general-anesthesia-coma
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)DebJ
(7,699 posts)Sunlei
(22,651 posts)You should talk to his Doctor about sleep, even try it for a week of 8-9 hours sleep a day for a week and see if that helps.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)
quakerboy
(13,917 posts)Personally, I like to attribute everything to an overage of condiments in the diet. If only everyone were to avoid all pickled items, vinegar, and other condiments, I am sure most physical and mental ailments would cure themselves fairly rapidly.
But, ya know, big ketchup has such a stranglehold on politics these days, what can ya do?
get the red out
(13,460 posts)I first experienced the symptoms of depression at age 12 for sure, maybe earlier. I am not a brutal killer filled with guilt now, and I certainly was not as a child.
Anti-depressants allow me to live a normal life. I really worry about the line of thinking that can easily morph into blaming the person who is suffering for causing their own problem. That is what we are currently doing with addiction and it isn't working out very well there either. Adding the "blame the victim" mentality to mental illness would allow society to wash it's hands of what it sees as bad seeds, but it would only intensify the problem
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)See my response to the post below on the TV show reference. Its all about an ever growing number of Americans on psyche meds.
I see meds as basically a crutch. If you can't walk, you need it. period. If its the only way you can walk for the rest of your life, you need it for the rest of your life, period. But at the same time, I think the best treatment would always be looking at a way to bring about a full recovery, and that's what we're missing.
All KINDS of things matter. I'm a little depressed right now because I'm in WA, working late, not getting sun. The treatment for this depression is taking lots of vitamin D for some reason. It totally works, and is well documented...
http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20120627/vitamin-d-deficiency-linked-to-depression
But I could imagine a person who is more severely effected thinking they need psyche meds. In a crisis situation maybe they do, but generally the cure is sunlight and vitamin D. But to see that, you need to get a holistic picture of the kind of things that can set off mental health issues... In this case, a lack of sunlight in the person's environment.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)Television is not real life you know. It over exagerrates and stigmatizes mental illness all the time.
... I guess all you can do is laugh at this when television takes over people's perceptions and ends up hurting people like me. Ha...
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)-Picasso.
The show gives an example of a situation where an individual's worldly circumstances are causing psychological pain, but he treats it with meds instead of looking at his life.
That's relevant because its now like 1 in 5 Americans who are on psyche meds. There have always been Americans with mental illness, but not that many. That's why its necessary to triage a bit, and get a more holistic picture of mental health.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)With the stigma the way it is, people go years without seeking help. People don't want to be labeled. There's a very real "pull yourself by your bootstraps" attitude going on. A guy went into psychward when I was there and went on about, "no offense but I'm not like you people. Where'd that attitude come from exactly? People go off and about thinking it's totally their fault for being sick, and they don't even recognize that they are sick.
I went a full year going to a psychologist. Called him up during my hypomanic attack and he told me to get medical help. I DID try to sort it out without pills, and you know what? I could have gone years having hypomanic attacks almost every night. I am very glad I found what I needed by giving them the benefit of the doubt. I did not want to be labeled and to this day, there's a strong urge to reject it because of how awful people think of people with mental illnesses.
I've met 30-50 year olds that were finally properly diagnosed with bipolar. Heck, one of my friends who is 47 just got newly diagnosed with it. And she hid her symptoms from her doctor for years because she did not want to be labeled as a person with bipolar. For the first time in a very long time, she feels less scattered brained, and more able to do things. She's not staying up 5 nights in a row and hearing voices anymore.
Do you even realize why people go off their medications? Usually it's a firm gesture of, "I am NOT -this label-." They believe they can maybe be happy without pills and working through their issues through other means. They want to be treated as a normal human being again. They think it's big pharma trying to rip them off for being unhappy. I wonder where they get that idea from? These are people who do not need to be off medication. Society is just making it easier for them to pretend that they're not sick. People don't want to go to the doctor because they don't want to be associated as a potential murderer. Since that's how people see mentally ill people after Newtown happened. Can you even fathom that?
As far as I can see it, these types of attitudes is what fucks up people even more. People keep it a secret that they're mentally ill because they don't want to get fired, or to ruin a relationship. The thing is, you might be talking about things that shouldn't be treated with pills, such as Internet addiction or what not. But your message is NOT only going towards people who just need a good therapist, they are heard by people who have very serious mental health problems.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)I saw your post and the one below earlier, and had some time to think about them. Your big message is that people don't want to be labelled. I absolutely understand that, and I agree. But the issue actually is with the current system of labels. They are too static, they do not allow for dynamic change within the individual. Whereas the paradigm we treat mentally healthy people with not only expects behavioural changes, it requires them.
Consider some guy in any social group, who gets upset, and starts accusing certain people there of being part of a cabal of witches. There are two social mindsets people can respond to him with:
1) The first is to treat him as mentally healthy peer - so people would call him a religious zealot asshole who has no right to be making these weird false allegation against others, he would be scorned.
2) The second is to label him mentally ill, he would be looked at with some sympathy, but as an "other".
The scorning in approach number one is an attempt to modify the guys behaviour so he doesn't act that way. Approach number 2 has abandoned that. Its no longer about the changing "him", of the guy, but the unchanging "it" of his disease, which is also his label.
The whole problem and the paradox is right there. Approach two recognizes the guys perceptions are beyond his control, and gives some compassion. But only approach one sees him as a peer, an equal, yet the confrontation and scorn doesn't help the situation a bit.
What's needed is a real idea about a path to recovery, a real recognition about the ability of people to heal, to go from one state to another, to go from other to peer. We need to find a way to heal that divide between people struggling with mental issues and every one else.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)People spend years and years and years in therapy trying to get rid of their illness without being labelled before either trying to kill themselves and ending up in psychward, or deciding that hearing voices and shutting themselves up in closets might not be a good thing. In fact, the main reasons people become labelled is because they decide they're alright with it, as long as it gets rid of mania, or voices, or anxiety, or depression, etc. These are very debilitating diseases that sucks all the life out of you. It's not something where holistic approaches are going to work. Besides that, it's not like you're ONLY getting pills. It's always pushed to have a therapist as well, and for the therapist to talk to the physciatrist when things get bad.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)You've been attacking distortions of what I've been saying from the beginning of this thread. What I'm critiquing is a society that over prescribes psyche meds, to the extent that like 50 million Americans (1/5th) population are on them.
I work and have worked in mental health. I've seen numerous occasions where people just get prescribed mountains of meds, until they end up drooling, silent and obese. Individuals who take less meds remain more of a pain in the rear for staff, but also, I've seen them doing better as things like diet and lifestyle improve.
I am not attacking ALL meds. But I am saying, loud and clear, we have NOT arrived on mental health treatment. We are still in the dark ages. Stirring the pot and trying new approaches like this should be welcome.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Neoma
(10,039 posts)You started out talking about an experience from watching the Sopranos and suddenly you're a mental health professional?
You've been attacking people who are on medicine and NOT listening to someone who has been through the system. It's also probably none of your damned business of why a person seeks help as well. Your entire argument is that people should stop taking so many pills. Like people haven't tried that approach? I'm trying to tell you that they have! Silent, drooling and obese? You realize medicine has improved since One flew over the Cuckoo's nest right? Usually physciatrists try to narrow down the side-effects and they try something different. If my medication starts to attack my liver or makes me fat, I'm pretty sure my psychiatrist will take me off them. That's their job.
The whole, "I'm a professional thus I know better" crap doesn't work with me. It's demeaning to my condition and it's a perverse way to disqualify someone. A mental health professional should know better.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)"You've been attacking people who are on medicine "
Nope. If you read my many posts on this, I've said meds save lives, they're often necessary, but they are over-prescribed, and part of a paradigm of treatment that is incomplete.
I've taken meds when I needed them, I've been around people with mental illness for years, both at work and with family. I've said all of this. The only reason I bring this up is your repeated assertions that I don't understand the condition...when in fact you don't understand what I'm saying.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)First, you do not acknowledge that television is stigmatizing and distorted towards people with mental health problems. I can see your mental health education already. Then it's the 1 in 5 americans are taking psych meds. You repeat this statistic over again and said that "There have always been Americans with mental illness, but not that many." You know, autism is on the rise (that's a mental illness, in case you weren't aware,) so is diabetes. But people don't think of the mentally ill in the same way they think of a person who is physically ill. Since the brain isn't a part of the body, right? Do you even realize how big of an umbrella 'mentally ill' covers? There can't be a rise in brain diseases because...?
You completely skip over my point that people DO do the holistic things for years before trying to get medication. You completely skip over my point that with your message that there's too many people on pills, it actually tells people who needs help, to not get help because of "society that over prescribes psyche meds." Do you know why mental illnesses are labels in the first place? It's because people are bigoted ableistic assholes. I don't walk around complaining that those darn cardiac arrest people are a menace to society. But since it's our brains giving us problems? You also have no idea what some people are without pills, and looking at something else you wrote... it's a huge assumption to think all depression comes from lack of sun light by the way. There's depression, then there's Major Depression, then there's Bipolar depression. I knew a guy with depression for probably 10 years or more. What finally worked for him? Electric Shock Therapy. Oh dear, the horror, the horror.
In this conversation with me, you did not say medicine saves lives, and exactly the time you decide to have a hissy-fit you try to claim authority over me in the mental health world. Bad form.
DerpyShell67
(1 post)I am not great at writing long explanations of how I feel, but this one really hit the spot! 
hrmjustin
(71,265 posts)
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)But there's nothing there, I mean what I say. For instance
it's a huge assumption to think all depression comes from lack of sun light by the way
Yep. But I didn't say that, did I. What I said was:
All KINDS of things matter. I'm a little depressed right now because I'm in WA, working late, not getting sun. The treatment for this depression is taking lots of vitamin D for some reason. It totally works, and is well documented...
http://www.webmd.com/depression/news/20120627/vitamin-d-deficiency-linked-to-depression
But I could imagine a person who is more severely effected thinking they need psyche meds. In a crisis situation maybe they do, but generally the cure is sunlight and vitamin D. But to see that, you need to get a holistic picture of the kind of things that can set off mental health issues... In this case, a lack of sunlight in the person's environment.
What I was saying is that some depression can be caused by lack of sunlight, vitamin D, so its necessary to get a holistic picture.
you try to claim authority over me in the mental health world
Did I? Or did I respond to posts here that question whether I know anything about it when in fact I do a bit.
As far as TV, stigma, and people denying mental illness exists (for the purposes of cutting funding.) Yes, unfortunately all that's out there, but if you're attacking me for that, honest to God Neoma, you've got the wrong guy. The only point I really want to make is that treatment of mental health should be more holistic. Meds for severely mentally ill are such a no-brainer to me that I don't feel like I need to advocate for them all. But there's work to be done in holistic full person treatment. That's it.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)That's why it doesn't fly in court. And it's a complete judgement by the people that say it. Am I "severely" mentally ill? You cannot say either way whether or not I am with any information I might give you. Am I mediocre, or in high need? Again, even I can't even say.
This is what it sounds like to me, just to give a little perspective...
'Too many people have cancer, we should stop treating them so much.' Or 'way too many people have heart surgery, we should find other options for clogged arteries.'
Without trying to see if a medicine does work or not. Without even trying to diagnose and find the proper treatment that will work. You do not walk in the same shoes as others when it comes to your depression. Each is a case by case basis. Why even mention the vitamin D thing as a "it could work for you!" type message? It does look like a message for all depressed people just in case, as if we don't get enough of false hope. This is the part I see most, "but generally the cure is sunlight and vitamin D" along with the word depression. I'm surely not the only person who misread it.
But I just have to say. You'd think you'd know already. You know there is out-patient groups that take the entire holistic approach? Right?
Surprise! They already do holistic approaches. Gah. I didn't go to out-patient and was forced outside to "be mindful" for nothing. They also had a cardio group in psychward, as well as doing art, boardgames and so on. NAMI groups generally helps you figure how things are amiss. They don't believe that only pills work. Can I make that clearer? People usually go to therapists before ever going to a doctor for their struggles. What do therapists do? I'll just let you guess on that one.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)i don't think anyone here would argue that there's not pill happy doctors, however, you are refusing to look at the overall picture and have your blinders on to focus only on this one issue.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)Maybe not this sub thread, but yes. I've taken meds. They save lives in crisis. many people need them.
But what I'm saying is they are not the totally of the answer, they are a crutch. We have not arrived, we have a lot of work to do on mental health treatment.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)we want people to stop telling us we're not really sick. i do not need changed. schizophrenics do not need changed.
and you are only furthering the divide by continuing to belittle and saying we need to find a real path to recovery when many of us have found it.
fizzgig
(24,146 posts)the panic attacks, the mood swings, the meltdowns. just therapy or nothing at all.
the harder i tried to keep it under control by myself, the harder it became to manage. everything compounded.
i'm not tony soprano. i don't murder people. i don't maim them. i do not do horrible things.
my childhood was better than many.
even after my life ceased to be a complete shit show, after i started eating rather than drinking my dinner, i still had my illness.
i have an illness. no one is arguing that environment or circumstance do not have an affect on mental health. yes, there are pill happy doctors. however, mental illnesses are physical diseases, and vary greatly. there isn't just one mental illness. anxiety is different than depression, which is different than schizophrenia, which is different than ocd.
we manage our medical condition with medication just like someone with a "physical" illness. the fact that mental illness is still considered a separate class of sickness than "physical" diseases like cancer or diabetes continues to keep us an other, to delegitimize our conditions, our lives.
while there is still socially accepted stigma attached to being labeled "mentally ill," that stigma has lifted greatly over the last few decades and more people are willing to seek treatment.
my medication makes me well. my brain isn't spun up to a million miles an hour now, thoughts of self doubt and the absence of self worth no longer ping ponging inside my brain.
i like myself now. i don't necessarily like everything about my life, but i am comfortable in my skin rather than crawling inside it.
why would you begrudge relief to the sick simply because one evil fuck on a tv show decided to take medication rather than stop being an evil fuck?
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)Hell Hath No Fury
(16,327 posts)
Yes, there are many, many people who develop a psychological response to bereavement and loss, poverty and discrimination, trauma and abuse, but there are others whose brains are just not working correctly. Ever spent much time around an un-medicated schizophrenic? Or someone in the throws of bipolar disorder? Or a woman with PPMD? Or someone with a traumatic brain injury?
I went her route for 5 long, agonizing years. I would be dead now if I had stayed on that path.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)" Ever spent much time around an un-medicated schizophrenic"
Why yes, actually I have! Psyche meds good! But on the other hand, we've got a situation now where about 1 in 5 Americans (the number keeps growing) are on psyche meds, and their not all hearing voices. For many of them, the causes are probably external.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)Big Pharma wants 20 %, no, 47 %, no, 99 % of Americans permanently and expensively medicated.
Whatever the percentage, there are many means of treatment. Psychoactive pharmaceuticals do have a place and are a miracle for many people, but are also over-prescribed, especially to children who are merely going through developmental phases in schools that want sedated easy-to-manage children filling seats and drawing down per capita dollars.
RKP5637
(67,089 posts)slippery slope ... and a highly profitable one for Big Pharma. To me, they are misused and sometimes overused by what I call sloppy psychiatrists. Also, sometimes highly creative and intelligent children/adults do not always adhere to the 'norm.' So, we drug them into compliance to the 'norm?' As you said, "Psychoactive pharmaceuticals do have a place and are a miracle for many people, but are also over-prescribed, ..."
To me, they are becoming the new over-prescribed antibiotic.
MADem
(135,425 posts)Inevitably such claims have given ammunition to psychiatry's critics, who believe that many of the conditions are simply inventions dreamed up for the benefit of pharmaceutical giants.
A disturbing picture emerges of mutual vested interests, of a psychiatric industry in cahoots with big pharma. As the writer, Jon Ronson, only half-joked in a recent TED talk: "Is it possible that the psychiatric profession has a strong desire to label things that are essential human behaviour as a disorder?"
Psychiatry's supporters retort that such suggestions are clumsy, misguided and unhelpful, and complain that the much-hyped publication of the manual has become an excuse to reheat tired arguments to attack their profession.
But even psychiatry's defenders acknowledge that the manual has its problems. Allen Frances, a professor of psychiatry and the chair of the DSM-4 committee, used his blog to attack the production of the new manual as "secretive, closed and sloppy", and claimed that it "includes new diagnoses and reductions in thresholds for old ones that expand the already stretched boundaries of psychiatry and threaten to turn diagnostic inflation into hyperinflation".
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/12/medicine-dsm5-row-does-mental-illness-exist
Squinch
(50,922 posts)mental illness and should be treated with meds.
And now all those who really DO have organic mental illnesses will need to defend themselves against prejudice again.
Thank pharma.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)It didn't say ALL such grief was indicative of mental illness. It allowed doctors more latitude in treating or diagnosing someone experiencing disruptive grief so that INSURANCE COMPANIES which require diagnoses would be satisfied.
And, I can't believe this needs explaining but okay, there are lots of people with borderline mental health issues or undiagnosed mental health issues who are pushed over the line by grief and only then seek treatment, often from a primary care physician. The grief is then a starting point for addressing a person's whole mental health.
Please folks, read beyond a headline.
Squinch
(50,922 posts)It's a ridiculous classification with a transparent profit motive. It isn't about people who are already mentally ill and are pushed over the line by loss of a loved one.
Yes, you should read beyond a headline.
Maraya1969
(22,464 posts)"people break down as a result of a complex mix of social and psychological circumstances – bereavement and loss, poverty and discrimination, trauma and abuse."
So me, my mother, grandmother, great grandmother and great great grandmother experienced the same type of complex mix of social and psychological circumstances and that's why we experience manic states of mind and body where we don't need sleep and our thoughts race uncontrollably and we do crazy things?
I say bull. Maybe something in our life experiences unlocked the gene but there is definitely a gene there. And no amount of talk therapy could stop the insanity.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)And some people benefit from a larger amount of medications than others.
Many people are over-prescribed and can be treated by other means.
Your anecdote about your family history and your case does not destroy the thrust of the doctors making the call. Their call is for a deep re-examination of the industry they are in (and it is an industry). It is overdue.
Maraya1969
(22,464 posts)in stem cell research. He explains, (it is quite long) how outside influences, or rather how the perception of outside influences can unlock the gene that is the cause of a problem. They have a lot of information that leads credence that bipolar disorder runs in families, (One study in the Amish community years ago showed a very clear correlation).
http://bipolar.hs.columbia.edu/disgenet.htm
But they also say that environment is a factor. And in the Youtube video Bruce Lipton explains how environment can "unlock" or take the cover off of the gene, (or genes) and make it viable.
The problem is our society is now filled with all sorts of environmental stressors and maybe that is why there seems to be an increase in this disease and others like it.
What I don't know is after the gene is unleashed can one heal oneself from the ramifications of it or not? I do know that there are things that you can do to lesson the symptoms somewhat that do not involve medication but as yet I have never heard of anyone just recovering from bipolar disorder. Although I am a spiritual person and I do believe that through inner work great changes can take place.
I have ended up in handcuffs more than once from this damn disease. At this point I am not going to take a chance of talk therapy keeping me out of trouble. It is just not worth it. I'll take my medication.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)A very interesting area of research is EpiGenetics: the study of factors outside of DNA affecting gene expression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigenetics
JudyM
(29,205 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)3 generations in my neighbor's family have been drug addicts thieves and jailbirds. no doubt that's genetic too....
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Addiction, thievery, and incarceration have very large learned components and they are strongly linked to factors of race, class, and gender that have more to do with social status than with genetics. I'm not denying that a genetic component may be in play, but I think when you're talking about really big social problems like those, there are huge social factors as well.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)of mothers and daughters with a bird phobia.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)I mean, hypothetically I suppose it could be learned...in my own life, I observed at a very young age that my mother reacted to roaches with irrational horror, and I picked up that horror too. Did it come from my genes or from observing at a young age that roaches were a thing to fear? To be clear here, I'm talking about my own experience, and I'm not trying to speak for you. If your experience leads you to feel that this bird phobia comes from something innate then I have every reason to take you at your word.
But I do think that's pretty different than the cluster of self-destructive behavior that you described in your neighbors. Full disclosure, my field of study is sociology, and examining the social factors that influence peoples' behaviors, lives, and choices is what we do for a living. There is a lot of research on the roll of class disparity and cultural conditioning in addiction and crime. Again, that doesn't mean there are no genetic factors, particularly with addiction, but it seems that there's more to the story. A kid growing up in an environment of addiction may be genetically predisposed to become addicted, but at the same time, if that kid was in an environment where he or she didn't see those behaviors--and didn't suffer the horribly damaging psychological consequences of them--then it is a lot less likely that they would fall into the same pattern.
Speaking more personally, I have some trauma-related psychological issues myself. My mother has them as well, more severely than I do--which makes sense, because the traumas she suffered were far more severe than my own. There may be genes that predispose certain people to suffer more psychological harm from trauma, but if the trauma did not occur, those genes would not matter.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)from those around us.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)I think we are pretty much on the same page.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)at the Division of Clinical Psychology get a screening ....
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Rise in obesity poses 'dementia time bomb'.
Ever-growing waistlines could result in a big increase in the number of people who develop dementia in the future, researchers have warned.
Previous studies have shown that being overweight in middle age increases the odds of developing the mental disorder.
Data presented at the European Congress on Obesity suggests stemming the rise in obesity will cut dementia.
The Alzheimer's Society charity said regular exercise and a healthy weight were important for reducing risk.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-22479049
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)Alzheimer's is caused by tangles of protein interfering in the brain. Those are physiological elements that can be verified by autopsy after death.
The doctors aren't talking about things like Alzheimer's.
Even so, the fascinating thing is that non-medical non-drug actions have been proven to greatly reduce the occurence of the disease:
In addition to the weight and exercise you remark on, if you play a musical instrument regularly, or dance to music, you reduce your risk of Alzeimer's by 75 percent. If you garden, it is almost as good. Note that dancing and gardening involve exercise as well as mental agility. If you do crossword puzzles or play strategy games (like chess or go / weiqi / baduk) it is almost as good. Fathom that.
antigone382
(3,682 posts)Obesity is an environmental factor, at least as it relates to mental health. In this example, your brain is in an environment of hypothetically poor nutrition and ill physical health that has cognitive consequences. Taking a pill to deal with those cognitive consequences may be less effective than changing the physical factors that set up for them.
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)Psychiatrists can... In a world where evidence mounts for biological changes associated with mental illness and genetic predispositions for certain types of mental illness the psychologists are trying to stake out a territory where they feel they are still relevent.
No psychiatry is not perfect and yes overmedication is a problem, but it has helped me become a mentally healthy person again... on my terms. Psychologists may have a place in helping people put their lives back together again and I have had encounters with some really good ones, but all the talking in the world wont help until the underlying problem is treated.
No amount of talking will set and heal a broken leg, so why expect a talking treatment to "cure" an illness that is caused by biological changes in the brain. The brain is an organ like any other and is as prone to damage, changes and failures like any other, the difference is the changes affect the mind and the way we think and act and some people don't like to acknowledge that.
If you need meds get meds, that's all I can say. Don't delay it because someone says you are not ill because "It's all in the mind".
mwooldri
(10,301 posts)But in my case it does help. The process of talking it through, to "re-wire" the brain from inside without medication *can* and *does* help a lot of people. It helps me, even if it is the case of "checking in" with my counselor to ensure I am doing fine. After all, when we go to school we learn stuff... talking and practicing definitely helps to learn that stuff. Speaking and listening is the #1 conduit into and outside of the brain. Some of this is just distorted thinking and when we recognise it isn't the way it is supposed to be then we seek help. We are then taught the "right way" to think. With some behavioural disorders talk therapy is the best way to go. Not always... but it does work. This is the key thing - "Not always". Sometimes medication is absolutely required... for some people for the rest of their life. Where it is absolutely needed, medicine should and ought to be prescribed... whether it is long term or short term... doesn't matter.
Psychiatry - I agree with you - it isn't perfect. It's taken a good few years to find the right mix of medications that keep me stable. To stop me from swinging from a very elevated mood to an extremely depressed mood. Sometimes flipping between the two in the same hour. Then again it isn't all about the drugs. It is a whole body thing. Yes, I have a diagnosis with a label slapped on it. It doesn't change things... I need to eat well, I need to exercise, I need to do things outside of just work and just home. That applies to nearly every human being on this planet.
But to defend the article - it does bring up some good points. Basically the new diagnosis manual is introducing a large number of new "diagnosis". Since it's being compiled from an American perspective, I think this is just a way to get psychiatrists and associated fields more work since the insurance system here "needs" a diagnosis of something to be able to go ahead and pay for treatment.
A good number of these new diagnosis do not always need medication... and even then the medication can be short term. People don't go around saying that people who are addicted to smoking cigarettes have a "nicotine disorder". Or people who consumer too many alcoholic drinks too frequently - they're not called people with an "obsessive alcohol consumption disorder". Alcoholism and drug addiction can be addressed in a clinical setting. They also can be addressed in other ways - Alcoholics Anonymous and Narcotics Anonymous have success in getting people off and keeping them off alcohol and Class I drugs. (yes AA and NA and programs like it have a God complex so it isn't for everyone.). I can truly say I had Internet addiction, and it wasn't the WWW that kept me hooked. It is under control and I didn't seek out medical treatment for it. I wouldn't classify it as a disorder though.
Yet "depression" really is too wide a term. There is the clinical ongoing depression that a number of people do have, and then there is situational depression. Drugs in situational depression may or may not be required. But I can say that people with situational depression and cannot manage the symptoms of it do need to seek help. I know... a close family member went into grief when their spouse died in an accident, and I don't think they ever got over it.
The article raises lots of good points, some of which have validity. There will always be debates in the field of psychiatric medicine - Homosexuality and Transgender-ism (?) were classified as a mental disorder at some point in time. The debate about removing Aspergers Syndrome and placing it in the autism diagnosis - that's still going on. I don't expect debates and controversies like this to go away any time soon.
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)But this blanket move by these psychologists to deny the idea of biological underpinnings of all mental illness not going to help. Like I said there is a place for psychology and talking therapies, but it must work in tandem with treating the biological underpinnings present.
No, not everyone needs drugs that's true and there are those that only need the talking therepies, but if you need drugs, you need drugs.
Oooh, Ooooh. Not to forget TMS Trans-cranial Magnetic Stimulation, an emerging therapy for treatment resistant depression using extremely high power magnets to alter brain states. Do we know exactly how it works? No, but it shows a lot of promise.
Not ervery treatmeant needs to be meds.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)underpinnings.
more than 100 years of looking for something more specific yields basically zip.
Liberalynn
(7,549 posts)
AnnieK401
(541 posts)with Bi-Polar disorder. I also have a close friend that has a brother who has been diagnosed with Schizophrenia. My cousin has attempted suicide and been hospitalized numerous times. She is morbidly obese and still lives with her parents at 48. She answered the phone in her father's business until it closed recently. Now she has applied for disability, and should be accepted easily. My friends brother is unable to care for himself and is now in a nursing home. He receives a small monthly payment from SSI, which goes to pay for his care. Both are heavily medicated, and yes the meds do have side effects that make it hard or impossible for them to function. I am sure the brother of my friend must have some kind of chemical/organic problem with his brain. With my cousin I believe that her environment could have contributed greatly to her "illness." I use the word "illness" for lack of a better term. Point being that I would have had a hard time surviving in her family, and believe me I am a survivor. That being said, her parents did raise 3 other, seemingly "normal" children. At least they are functioning fairly well, even highly. They all have families, jobs, etc. One even made it through Yale Law school and has a great job with a law firm. All came from the same environment. Still, bottom line I wouldn't dismiss this latest statement out of hand, but I still believe that there are real biological causes behind some or many cases of mental illness.
RKP5637
(67,089 posts)issues as a youth and I was fortunate to have had many sessions of armchair counseling with a highly competent psychiatrist. As he said, we could give you medication, but it will not help you long term, and he was so correct these many decades later. I think some would have even prescribed shock therapy like to some of my friends decades ago. I'm afraid in today's world they would just drug me, as my creativity and sometimes irrational behavior would be seen as needing chemical suppression. Yes, that is not true for all cases.
hue
(4,949 posts)fasttense
(17,301 posts)There are genes that do NOT turn on, like depression, unless the person with the gene experienced psychological trauma in childhood. Then there are trends, yes trends, in mental illnesses. The hysteria women experienced during Freud's time and now the eating disorders mostly women experience today. These are obviously caused by the society at large, otherwise so many people would NOT be displaying the same symptoms at the same period. Then there are degrees of mental illness. A manic depressive (it's been relabeled but I can't remember the new name for it) personality disorder can function perfectly well in the larger society but a manic depressive psychosis will become disabling. Then there are mental illnesses we accept in society without complaint. The sociopath personality disorders displayed by very rich royals, CEOs, political and corporate leaders. We all accept their drive to control and manipulate others and even reward and encourage it. Yet that personality displayed in agrarian or hunter gatherer societies would be very dysfunctional.
So society does affect the psychological well being of people but then genetic predisposition also plays a hand. The truth is both affect a person. It just sounds like this group in the UK is reestablishing the importance of nurture and society in the psychological development of people. Nurture probably needs to be re-emphasized what with the move to drug so many illnesses.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)We can't lose track of the fundamentals e. g. People who come from abusive situations are often messed up from it.
But what's interesting is the idea of genetic determinism has really come into question lately. I saw an article I can't find right now, but basically it said that it many cases genes define modes of operation for biological systems that change based on environment. Sort of like a gene decides if you're running windows or mac, but environment dictates the files and programs you've downloaded and are running. So there's a lot of change.
Locut0s
(6,154 posts)I think the relabel is Bipolar.
RKP5637
(67,089 posts)
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)tendencies.
A very, very, very difficult time in my life. When her psychiatrist finally said, "She's not cooperating, she refuses drugs, and she claims it is all your fault, not hers, I thought you should know. And by the way, I think you are sane, but seriously stressed, and she's fucking crazy."
Her (the MD's) words, not mine.
It is amazing how consistently and seriously a bipolar personality wraps up people around them, and tears them apart.
RKP5637
(67,089 posts)raccoon
(31,105 posts)"Then there are mental illnesses we accept in society without complaint. The sociopath personality disorders displayed by very rich royals, CEOs, political and corporate leaders. We all accept their drive to control and manipulate others and even reward and encourage it. "
nolabear
(41,937 posts)lumberjack_jeff
(33,224 posts)I hear the same individuals say "my eating disorder is an intrinisic nature, while little boys interest in toy trucks is all about socialization."
That said, I'm uncomfortable with the idea that "hysteria" or "eating disorders" are themselves (not to be confused with the diagnosis) trendy.
Certainly there are psychological conditions which can be usefully adapted to local conditions.
And "manic depressive" = "bipolar"
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)
originalpckelly
(24,382 posts)Very important to know.
And by the way, WHAT HORSESHIT!
I've gone from being a patient to working with people with mental illness in my job. It is a disease. It is a disorder.
The factors mentioned may trigger symptoms, but there are diseased brains. I had to accept my own is one of them.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)Define some diseases but not others that we currently call diseases. For instance, with a cold a physical virus attacks your cells. With an infection, its a bacteria. With cancer, its a cell replication error. The medications target these, or the symptoms.
With other diseases, such as mental illness invoked by trauma, or with obesity, larger environmental factors are to blame. If you live in a setting where nothing but fast food is available, you will get obese. There is no pill for this, nothing a doctor can do: Your diet needs to change. Similarly, there's no pill to cure a once healthy mind that's been damaged by years of abuse, or the mind of a feral child, raised in isolation from humans. These "illnesses" are human minds reacting to real environmental situations, just like a human body reacts to a diet of junk by getting fat. So I think its really good to draw a line here: Yes there are diseased brains, some probably biologically... But assuming biological factors as a blanket strategy to treat "mental illness", when no biological factors can be shown in most cases just isn't good science.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)This "big new battle" described in the OP is one short skip away from "think happy thoughts and stop frowning."
Locut0s
(6,154 posts)Yes the pendulum has swung too far one direction. Psychiatrists hardly bother to treat the nurture side of the equation nor even really admit it exists. It's all about pills pills pills. This is a mistake. BUT to state that mental illness has no biological component is to ignore decades of sound scientific research. Proven research. Mental illnesses have a clear genetic component. We can even point to specific genes that confer serious susceptibility to some conditions for some groups of people. Such as schizophrenia. These illnesses run in families. There is no clear cut black and white connection between how someone was raised, treated as a child, their socio economic status and mental disorders. Yes certainly such factors play a huge role, the poor, those who were abused as children, raised improperly, have a MUCH higher incidence of mental illness. But it doesn't explain the millions of people around the world who had perfect upbringings, are financially sound, are not a minority, and yet still commit suicide due to debilitating depression. Nor does it explain the millions who were raised in ungodly horrible conditions yet show few signs of mental illness. Pills aren't the only answer but for many they work, they aren't a cure but they have an important role to play. The answer is now fairly clearly 50/50 or something close to it. 50% biological 50% socio economic / nurture. To claim that biology plays no role is idiotic at this point.
Long time sufferer of depression and anxiety.
TM99
(8,352 posts)yet I challenge you to show me one piece of objective scientific testing that will determine as of right now whether you or anyone else suffers from depression, anxiety, etc. Those of us in psychology have known for over a century that naturally there is a biomedical component to psychic states of being. Any one with a cursory understanding of neuropsychology and endocrinology understands this.
Might there be one some today? Perhaps. Sure there is a supposed blood test due out soon for depression. The corporation responsible, of course, hasn't really shared a whole lot with us actual mental health professionals about it though. But right now there are no blood tests, no diagnostically relevant imaging studies that your Psychiatrist or Internist can send you to get, and in fact, the diagnosis is made as it always has been by psychologists. We discuss personal history, family history, behaviors, signs and symptoms on an individual basis and compare it to an idea of the statistical normative behavior for that gender, age range, and current life circumstances.
If you are seeing someone like me, then I use a set of tools and techniques some verbal others behavioral and yet others in my case as a somaticist that are physical to assist you in managing or dealing with depression or anxiety. Many are quite effective and shown so empirically. If you are seeing a Psychiatrist, then they will choose medications, often with side-effects for most individuals, that may or may not alleviate your depression on a case by case basis. If the drug works, then it was the right one. If the drug doesn't, then they test another. If they find one that works, maybe it works permanently. Often it does not and dosages are adjusted accordingly.
Bluntly, psychiatry and psychology are both doing the best they can with what we currently know about how the body/mind actually works and functions over the life-span of an individuals. Sometimes one approach is preferred over the other. Sometimes both work well in tandem. Are there individual psychologists who promote crank theories and bogus treatments? Sure, but not the majority of them. Are there individual psychiatrists who are only concerned about promoting the Big Pharma's next break through drug treatment at the expense of the patient's well-being? Sure, but not the majority of them.
The problem both of us have with Pharma right now is that there is a push by corporations to label, market, and sell their products at the expense of large swashes of the populations well-being. Your family doctor has no place diagnosing and given their patients anti-depressants. Hell, as a professional in the field for over twenty five years, I most certainly do. Yet, the AMA does not want a Ph.D prescribing and encroaching on their cabal.
The newest DSM is a travesty. The constant thrust for finding only a biochemical basis of mental health and illness is an equal travesty. I applaud those on either side who are attempting like this group to address these flaws and make positive change. Are you? Or are you just concerned with your own state of being alone? Do you believe that your experience alone is true for all that suffer from depression and anxiety as you do? Why does what this group propose makes you feel so very threatened?
DebJ
(7,699 posts)In your professional experience, what types of life issues cause mania? And what kind of talk therapy
is a solution, all by itself, without medication, when the manics brain, also being powered by OCD, can not, just
can NOT accept any input, because it is on hyperdrive? Perhaps for a few moments the person can be
talked down.........then, they go home.... a piece of toast burns, and they are off to the races again......
My son has suffered severely from bipolar since he was a child. We have been blessed
for most of his most recent years, but the past 30 days have been a pure hell of mania,
with explosive anger ever day from 3 pm until he goes to bed, when he goes to bed.
Talking alone is not going to fix this. If the proper med mix can not be found, and soon,
the consequences are going to be horrific. He is totally, absolutely, completely not himself,
and not in any control of his brain's functioning, for agonizing, horrifying hours every day.
(And yes he was in the hospital recently, just 20 days ago, but the situation is still pretty
dire).
He sees both a psychiatrist for meds and a psychologist for counselling; he needs BOTH.
I believe the poster to whom you were responding made their point very clear....to say
bluntly that there is no biological basis, no chemical imbalance that is aided by pharmaceuticals
is..........INSANE.
It is not an either/or. Human life, human biology, human psychology are so immensely complicated
by such an enormous number of factors, that we will never know them all. To bluntly state that meds
are unneccessary is criminal.
On Edit: also, there have been brain images, MRIs if I recall properly, that showed a pattern in the brains of people with bipolar disorder, where certain areas of the brain are structured differently. For example, the area detecting smell is often much larger.
TM99
(8,352 posts)and I agree with it in part and disagree with it in others.
Even though medications can (but not always) help individuals with bipolar, we still do not know what part of the brain causes this disorder. We still have no objective tests for measuring the effectiveness of a medication except trial and error. And technically these psychologists are right. We can not yet definitive say that these 'disorders' are an 'illness' with strictly biology origination. And to pathologize anyone's personal experience of a disorder such as bipolar has not been in my clinical experience particularly helpful. I don't particularly care when working with a client/patient what disease, disorder, label, etc. they have identified with. I am concerned right then and there with listen and helping. I do not just do talk-therapy so I am not a normal psychologist. I straddle a middle ground with my somatics work that is part biophysical and part cognitive/emotional.
Yes, get an individual like your son out of crisis and suffering. I would definitely support him taking medication. Then talk therapy assists him in managing having this disorder potentially for life. How many hundreds and thousands of individuals with mental disorders stop medications on their own and have literally no one to turn to for help - be it family or a licensed counselor.
There has been an astounding thrust forward in the last two decades in making all 'mental issues' be they deep seated, temporary and understandable, or reactive into 'diseases' that can only be treated with drugs and drugs alone. It is not either/or and perhaps this seems reactionary, the position these psychologists are taking, but bluntly as a professional myself, I do understand it. Outside of bipolar, schizophrenia, and deeply intransient depression, I have constantly seen most mental disorders effectively 'cured' or managed via talk therapy, behavioral therapy, and somatic therapy. Most depressed people do not need Prozac to stop suffering. Most PTSD sufferers do not need Ativan to manage anxiety. So yes, in most cases medications are just not necessary. They are over prescribed. They have horrid side-effects and discontinuance syndromes.
But the bottom line for me is that when it comes to patient care, I am not political. I use what works and offer my patients all of the help and support I can. I will without hesitation refer for medications, when necessary and warranted, and I will also talk bluntly with clients about not relying on them when there are other methods that might help in their individually unique cases.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)that I myself was hit with two winters ago is diet/Vitamin D deficiency.
i got so severely depressed that I went to therapy for two visits. Then I realized
that because of a job change, I was no longer eating breakfast, my primary source
of Vitamin D, and I was eating crappy dinners and lunches as well because of multiple
pressing responsibilities. On top of that, it was dark when I went to work in a room
more like a prison cell-block than a classroom, dark cinderblock walls and one small
window at the far end of the room that was kept closed, and then it was dark very shortly
after I got home. I made a concentrated effort to get vitamin D in my diet and quit the
crappy job environment and instead got some sunshine, et voila! In about a week, everything was fine. No therapy needed.
TM99
(8,352 posts)rarely talked about apparently.
How often is depression or anxiety or even a personality disorder the results of other medical problems and not a 'brain chemistry' disease unto itself.
I know this first hand as I began to explore mood changes about ten years ago. I was often extremely irritable, impatient, emotionally labile, and anxious. I had never been before. MD after MD kept sending me to psychiatrists and counselors to have me assessed for depression, PTSD, etc. I kept explaining that after years of clinical practice and therapy myself, I knew something else was going on.
Finally an astute NMD tested my cortisol levels. They were off the charts. Many tests, specialists, and medical doctors later, I was properly diagnosed with a Pituitary adenoma. Chemo treatments and hormone treatments, which I am still on and must monitor about every six months, returned me to 'normal'. I was calm again, rarely angry, steady and appropriate in my emotional expressions, and the anxiety was gone.
So in your case, SADD was a real medical condition with below normal vitamin D levels. In my case, I had a Pituitary disorder. We have a long way to go in truly understanding psyche and soma.
Sivafae
(480 posts)This is the very thing I have been researching on for a while. I have been having life altering extreme anxiety for years that has been increasing with each passing year. It is debilitating.
I have been asking questions about the fact that perhaps, just perhaps, some of what I am experiencing could be symptom of something physically wrong with me. My MD wouldn't hear it. She said the body always follows the brain/emotions. Except there is this condition known as Cushing's syndrome and if the body followed the brain/emotions, then what the hell is that syndrome for?
A psychiatrist told me that if I went back to the traumatic experience I would be able to get over it. But what about traumatic events that occurred before your memory started?
To me (and in keeping with the topic) it is like the doctors, all of them--psych and MD's, are too ready to believe that all of it is in our heads and psych meds will fix it. But there are problems even with that, because there are environmental factors that we didn't have some 50 to 100 years ago. Yes, there are advances in our understanding about what affects people. And that is a great relief, because too often people are told that they are lazy, when in reality they have a debilitating mental condition. But what if, and this is what I am investigating, all of those insecticides that mimic estrogen are behaving in such a way as to mimic mental conditions?
Professionals are the cause of A LOT of bullshit theories that are more harmful than helpful. Harmful because it closes the doctor's minds to what the actual problem, cause and solution may be for each individual. Aren't they suppose to be scientists?
But seriously, TM99, pm me if you feel up to talking about your experience with me. I would love to know more.
TM99
(8,352 posts)and we can definitely chat some more about this.
Yes, this is a real problem. As a somaticist, I know that the body and mind are like the flip sides of a coin. Heads is not tails and tails is not heads yet they really are not separate things, are they? I watched my father's personality change after multiple heart surgeries and pacemakers. I have a friend who survived cancer, and he is not the same person mentally that he was. Change the body, change the mind. Change the mind, change the body.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)what I have read, to screen automatically for any type of hormonal imbalances before
pursuing psychiatric interventions. I know my son was screened for that before a diagnosis
of bipolar was discussed. Thyroid issues can also produce problems.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I have met hundreds via online forums and in person who have had the same experience.
What it comes down to is insurance and age. Young man, sure, if the insurance is good, you get the extra screening tests. Thyroid is over tested and in my case was, but obviously not the problem as it came back normal every time. My tumor was in a location that did not affect the thyroid.
Reading is one thing, the reality is often quite different. Patients rarely go directly to a psychiatrist. They go to the 'gatekeeper' (the PCP) first. Pushing middle age, weight gain, mood changes, insomnia, loss of sexual desire, etc. and they give you the it is stress speech. If you make it past that, then you get the referral, go to the psychiatrist, who asks a few questions, reads the notes from the PCP, and starts you on a psychotropic of some sort - for anxiety, depression, bipolar (is suspected), etc. Depending upon the insurance, you might get sent to a Nurse Practitioner instead of a psychiatrist. If you refuse to do so, as I did, then you are a 'problem patient'. It is all 'in your head' but you just won't accept it and allow them to medicate you.
I finally turned to alternative medical professionals. We have licensed NMD's in Arizona so I was fortunate. And it was this NMD that had the insight and courage to think outside the box. Once a urine and blood test came back, then and only then did the PCP and psychiatrist 'believe' that I was not depressed or had another mental illness.
The system is broken on the whole even if there are those who get relief and wellness from psychotropic medications.
DebJ
(7,699 posts)prescribe stuff. i had a bad reaction to the asthma/allergy med Advair but
didn't realize at first that the Advair was the source. i was having extreme
anxiety and panic attacks, and started speaking very rapidly. My regular doc
referred me to a psych. By the time that appointment came up in a few weeks,
I had remembered that my doc had just doubled my Advair doseage just before
these symptoms started. i went online and saw first that Advair has a corticosteroid,
and second, that LOTS of other Advair users were complaining of this type of response
to Advair. The psych and my regular doc flat out denied that Advair could cause this...
and I really, really like my regular doctor and trust her greatly. The psych wrote a prescription
for something; don't remember what, I trashed it. I had stopped taking the Advair by
the time my appointment came up with him, and even though it wasn't completely out
of my system after just one week, I still saw a noticeable difference. Within two weeks,
my symptoms were almost gone, and now, four years later, they have never returned.
Turbineguy
(37,295 posts)is it still a sickness?
uriel1972
(4,261 posts)sickness and debility is still sickness and debility no matter how common or uncommon it is.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)has it because, under the current paradigm, the implication would be that most people were born genetically defective. That doesn't make sense evolutionarily.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)I don't see why evolution would bar this being the case.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)from depression, unreliable due to wild mood swings, who wants you as a mate, how do you care for a child, and how do you get food and fight off danger?
1/4 to 1/3 of the population is *not* 'mentally ill'. it simply doesn't make sense in evolutionary or survival terms.
1/4 to 1/3 of the population *is* poor, is on the edge, is hypnotized by the mass-produced dreams and desires and shames of capital.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)would be dangerous to others in their care, or would be so constant as to drive away mates. I don't think anyone is saying that 1/4 of the populace has serious mental illnesses manifesting in such ways.
Locut0s
(6,154 posts)They are stating that there are no biological roots to mental illness. That statement is bull. We can argue about over diagnosis and over prescription and I will probably agree with you 90% but that's a different argument.
JCMach1
(27,553 posts)Last edited Sun May 12, 2013, 08:11 AM - Edit history (1)
This battle has been going on since the beginning of psychiatry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-psychiatry
rox63
(9,464 posts)There are organic brain disorders that cause serious disability for those suffering from them, and tremendous suffering for those who care about them. And some of them can be controlled or the symptoms greatly reduced by use of medication and therapy.
There are other mental disorders that are the result of a combination of circumstance and genetics, and many of those can be greatly helped by either medication, therapy, or both. I have one of these, and have personally benefited from both medication and therapy. As a result, I have been able to live a relatively functional life, with some periods of great sadness, great happiness, but with most of my life landing somewhere between those two extremes.
There are also some mental states or disorders that are the result of circumstances, such as depression resulting from grief or loss. These are generally temporary, but the worst of the symptoms can be relieved by medication or therapy while the person works through the situation that led to their problems.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)be diagnosed as such.
e.g.:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korsakoff_Syndrome
thus far no 'organic' causes have been identified for things like schizophrenia, bipolar, etc.
just the 'chemical imbalance' theory which failed to pan out but is still being treated as though it were real.
rox63
(9,464 posts)They are not known to be linked to situational or emotional trauma.
LuvNewcastle
(16,838 posts)mass shootings. We discussed a lot of things that might be factors in making a person commit such an act and most of those factors were environmental and social factors.
So I agree that a lot of mental variations are due to conflicts with other people and their constructs. Many of our mental ills have nothing to do with individual brain chemistry, but are understandable reactions to intolerable or threatening circumstances. However, it is much easier to change a single person's reactions than to start a movement and change a society.
The sciences of Psychiatry and Psychology are all about fitting in. The whole idea is to treat people until their views and habits are within the perceived social norm. Finding the truth about the proper way humans should behave is a secondary consideration, if it's considered at all. The thoughts and behavior of the subject might be the more correct perceptions and actions, but the idea is to make the individual conform to the majority.
I think it would be a good thing if many different mental variations come to be seen as valid instead of being looked upon as needing treatment. More viewpoints equal new ideas, and some of those ideas could be the very ones humans need to advance and make life more rewarding.
Schema Thing
(10,283 posts)The brain part is magic."
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)that those identifiable manifestations don't include conditions like 'schizophrenia,' 'bipolar,' 'ADD,' or 'oppositional defiant disorder'.
which thus far cannot be diagnosed from *any* biomarker whatsoever.
samsingh
(17,593 posts)
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)they won't have to cover mental issues anymore. of course the drug companies will be upset but they'll find a way to get their fair share out of those who need medication.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)One - Any time someone takes a pill to "cure" a disease is not really a cure. It is a treatment of a symptom and thus any disease can be classified the way the Division of Clinical Pharmacology. Diabetes, take a pill. High blood pressure, take a pill. High cholesterol, take a pill. Etc. Etc. Etc. These are truly medical problems and probably a number of them can be cured without pills. Mental illness is the same, take a pill. Their are ways to cure mental illness organically, but at what expense?
Leads to two. If mental illness is no longer classified as a disease, then insurance companies will not be liable to treat the sufferers. It is one thing to pay for a pill. It is another to pay for long term, real cure of a mental illness. You watch. Insurance companies will start to pay less and less. And only the very wealthy will be able to get real care for mental illness. The DCP have been paid off.
Liberalynn
(7,549 posts)HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)to make insulin; in the same way that thyroid hormone is a cure of sorts for thyroid disease and B1 is a cure for beri-beri.
timdog44
(1,388 posts)There is definitely a gray area. There are some medications that are a necessity. My beliefs are that those kinds of meds have all been discovered. The new medications are for perceived diseases. For instance, cholesterol. When I first started my nursing career a level of 300 was considered normal. Then 280, then 250, then 200, then 180 and now they want to give this poison to children. The big pharma companies have found a substance they can test for and then created a medication that can adjust it to some ethereal blood level. So many of the "pills" we are given is so the patient (and doctor) don't have to deal with things organically. So much of what is wrong with the human body is the "food" we put in it.
For those whose pancreas does not produce insulin, the cure is no doubt insulin. Same with the thyroid. This all takes me to a new tack. The reason for all Americans to be on insurance is so regular doctor visits can occur and the organic element addressed. I know there are other difficult mountains to climb in this area, but it would be a start. My wife and I, and she is a nurse also, call what happens in the USA, sick care and not health care.
Sorry for the on and on.
Hugabear
(10,340 posts)This isn't too far removed from claiming that mental illnesses are caused by demons
MynameisBlarney
(2,979 posts)My mother has suffered from a severe chemical imbalance (AKA paranoid schizophrenia/bipolar disorder) since before I was born and I can say with 100% confidence that these "doctors" are full of shit.
Granted, the mental health system in this country is pathetic, but if this malarkey gains traction here, my mom will suffer even more.
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)National Institute of Mental Health proposed funding ONLY psychological studies that look at underlying biological mechanisms.
This seems to say that DCP doesn't believe most mental issues have a biological basis.
Apparently there will be a pissing match over turf as neurobiologists achieve ascendency in US mental health research funding.
bananas
(27,509 posts)But they're going to keep funding neurobiological research - because they're neurobiologists.
Android3.14
(5,402 posts)Get it? Take medication because you are legitimately unhappy with something in the environment. Sound familiar?
Somehow I doubt they are talking about ceasing treatment. People with schizophrenia will still receive antipsychotics, the DSM will still call it schizophrenia or however they refer to it.
I would suspect this has more to do with people treating the common human experience as symptoms of a disease.
A kid with too much energy, inability to focus, and discipline problems at school just might not have a disorder known as ADHD. Perhaps, just perhaps, he's just like a kid with too much energy, inability to focus, and discipline problems.
Maybe, just maybe, a morose person is not suffering from the disease of depression, but is, in fact, sad for real reasons and the quick fix of drugs just removes the depth and breadth of the human experience.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)One of the best parts:
Longden writes: "And in his quiet, Irish voice he said something very powerful, 'I don't want to know what other people have told you about yourself, I want to know about you.'
"It was the first time that I had been given the chance to see myself as a person with a life story, not as a genetically determined schizophrenic with aberrant brain chemicals and biological flaws and deficiencies that were beyond my power to heal."
That's very powerful stuff. And its ethical: Why? Because we don't freaking know what causes schizophrenia. So this false determinism really is a fraud. Yes, meds can help. But so can neuroplasticity, life circumstances, diet, etc. We owe sufferers of mental illness an HONEST report of how little we know.
Demeter
(85,373 posts)when you are living with someone with mental illness. They can keep you sane, which drugs would NOT do.
Or you could move out....if you are old enough to leave a crazy family.
But nobody can talk down a person whose brain just doesn't work. Take my autistic kid....if she's not got enough of the right drugs in her system, she cannot be reached, let alone reasoned with. And that's a genetic, organic problem.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)nolabear
(41,937 posts)I hang with people who have various issues. Some of them certainly appear to be of biological origin and medication helps to create the ability to live in a world that doesn't otherwise have a way to help them. I can't imagine not medicating a self destructive schizophrenic person, someone with a delusional disorder that tells them to kill themselves or others, a bipolar person who struggles to control feelings and thoughts that seem totally uninfluenced by what is going on in their lives.
But, what I know most of all, is that, medication or not, a person is a person, not a diagnosis. One of the saddest aspects of this work is the guilt so many (not all) people feel, as though they had done something wrong, or the terror that if people really know them they will not be loved and cared for. Sadly, the desire to medicate some things (such as grief and tantrums) rather than to give these people the deep care and permission to suffer and to help them reconnect to themselves and life itself is being shelved by a world that is itself a little pathologically disconnected and unwilling. It does no one, the sufferer or those who would benefit from helping them and reaping the benefits of their existence, any good.
You are not a simple thing. You are complex, and wonderful, and sometimes incomprehensible, and you deserve to live in a world that will do everything it can to make your life good and productive. And it is sometimes very, very hard. And I don't know where it's going. But some of us believe in people, and try to help as much as we can.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)"Sadly, the desire to medicate some things (such as grief and tantrums) rather than to give these people the deep care and permission to suffer and to help them reconnect to themselves and life itself is being shelved by a world that is itself a little pathologically disconnected and unwilling."
The American medical industry makes its' money from quick turnarounds, repeat business and self promotion. It has no interest in changing this business model. It is how it makes its money and that is the goal. American society is wildly dysfunctional and the prevailing analysis is that it isn't........there are only 'bad apples', lone gunmen and bad genes.
The only bright spot is professionals like you who can see through the hype.
.
nolabear
(41,937 posts)
steve2470
(37,457 posts)
1monster
(11,012 posts)Signs of Autism are present from a very early age and tend to be genetic in nature.
I must admit, though, that through experience, I have very little faith in the psychiatric, psychological, and therapist based industry. Too many are ignorant of their own standards, many are agenda driven who ignore the obvious to tout there own beliefs, and many motivated by the hourly fees more than any desire to help. There are some very few and hard to find in the field who are worth the time and effort to find them.
elleng
(130,767 posts)Thanks, bananas.
mopinko
(70,023 posts)plain old fashioned self serving bullshit.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)Neoma
(10,039 posts)You just attacked the mental health support group's leader. Good job.
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)You have made a fundamental error that many people on the internet do.
Especially when dealing with mental health issues, but at all other times too, it is important to distinguish between the person and the illness or the person and the post.
The person is not the illness.
The person is not the post.
Here is the post I responded to, in its entirety:
Here is my "attack" (as you call it) in its entirely:
Please be more careful in the future with your keyboard.
A post that calls something "bullshit" without any analysis or discussion is not worthy of respect.
A person is a different matter.
All the same, I have no opinion on the person as I do not know them or their posts, and I do not have automatic respect for positions. Just because somebody was appointed (self-appointed?) to their position does not mean they get a pass. Even if they are elected, they don't get an automatic pass.
Beware of the "appeal to authority" fallacy.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)Maybe she has a damned good reason to say it. We have all had to defend ourselves against people who think we're just making shit up because we're insecure or "retarded" or some such nonsense. "Get over it, it's all in your head," "it's NOT a disease," or just stop being this or that way. "You should do this, you should do that" for your health. We should not have to keep defending ourselves for being sick and in need of treatment. Period.
get the red out
(13,460 posts)I went 18 years without medication trying to prove myself "good" for the world and all I got was 18 years stuck in the same mental and emotional place of struggling to keep my head above water. I'd rather live life.
postatomic
(1,771 posts)Not unlike your one word post "nope".
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)Hugabear
(10,340 posts)At least according to the Bible
Posteritatis
(18,807 posts)It's nice to see religious and secular society come together to cover all of the bases on something.
Warpy
(111,174 posts)or people with severe bipolar disease. These are undoubtedly disorders of the brain, chemically and structurally, that are not provoked by any of the life changes he states. Most often they appear out of the blue in adolescence, the onset being just insidious enough to delay treatment. There is a strong genetic component to most of it.
For too long the brain has been the organ accused of moral failure when something goes wrong.
Psychiatrists have done their best listing clusters of symptoms but until the brain is treated like any other organ and diseases of it are classified by upsets in chemistry or function, we'll remain in the infancy of understanding it.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)chemical or functional correlates to mental illness.
far from 'infancy,' they've been trying to do so for over 100 years.
no luck so far.
Warpy
(111,174 posts)and chemistry.
Sheesh, I thought more people knew that.
It's a perfect time for a genetic time bomb to go off.
I know that's when all my extended family's bipolar disease emerged.
Face it, there are serious brain illnesses that can't be cured by talking, nagging, shaming, or bullying.
Archae
(46,301 posts)About 25-30 years ago, psychologists were finding "satanic abuse victims" all over the place.
These same people used to blame the Mother for autistic kids, saying the Mom "froze them out."
Psychology is a fad-driven profession, began by a guy who did enough cocaine to kill a moose.
postatomic
(1,771 posts)I was once told by a Mental Health Professional that I could double my chances for recovery if I were more 'religious'.
Are there people that abuse their position as a "professional"? Absolutely. And it's easy to just lump an entire field based upon the misguided ramblings of the very few. But it's disrespectful of those that suffer greatly from their mental illness.
I don't fault your for your comments. Most people are fearful of trying to understand mental illness. It's a little more complicated than a 'fad'.
Archae
(46,301 posts)I have mild bipolar symptoms myself.
It used to be called "manic-depressive."
Amitryptilene (sp?) seems to work to keep me on an even keel with fewest side effects.
But I had psychologists say I hated my Mom, or my Dad.
One started saying to me that I had been satanically abused as a baby, I cut that ditwit off cold.
And the Scientologists pestered me for a couple weeks, telling me all sorts of horror stories about psychiatry.
(A local newspaper found them hanging around outside the local free mental health clinic.)
Bernardo de La Paz
(48,966 posts)You don't have to be religious, just use the tools.
Two very powerful mental tools, confirmed by research, are:
1) Meditative prayer or simple meditation (no prayer necessary).
2) Forgiveness. That does not mean forgetting or failing to prosecute or to sue for recovery of damages. Forgiveness is for the forgiver, not the forgiven. The person who is forgiven doesn't even have to be told or know. Forgiveness frees the forgiver and allows them to move forward with a calmer clearer mind to do what needs to be done.
TM99
(8,352 posts)I started in the field 25 to 30 years ago. No, not all psychologists were finding satanic childhood abuse victims. Only a very small minority on the fringes of the field who got face time on Jerry Springer.
No, psychologists 30 years ago that were my mentors and teachers said no such thing in school or in supervision about autism. They did say that it was not a prevalent disorder. Why is it more so now? Over diagnosis? Better tools for diagnosis? Some other environmental/biochemical factor influencing gestation? No one knows yet.
Psychology is not fad-driven. It is a field that is only about 125 years old. It is growing, evolving, and correcting itself constantly. Just because pop culture and the media focus on sensational stories does not mean the entire field is that. Are all lawyers ambulance chasing psychopaths? Are all medical doctors in it for the fast car and big salaries? Are all nurses women who couldn't make it in to medical school? Of course not, that is just hyperbolic bullshit.
Freud was one of the founders of psychology, true. However, he was a brilliant psychiatrist who at the time experimented with new 'drugs' to treat mental illness. In this case it was cocaine. He found that in small doses it assisted patients in 'opening up' and expressing themselves more freely. It also proved to be quite helpful in the treatment of morphine addiction. He did try it himself because unlike most psychiatrists today, he felt it unethical to recommend a substance to a patient that he himself would not be willing to take. How many do you know that take Welbutrin or Prozac? After the negative effects became known, like any good scientist he renounced its use and moved on.
Get off the internet, read a book, and if you are going to pontificate on a subject, please make sure you know what you are actually talking about. Many a serious discussion, which this topic is, get derailed by bullshit like this.
HiPointDem
(20,729 posts)psych drugs.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)get the red out
(13,460 posts)Absolutely, no need to spend on something that can be reclassified as NOT a disease.
Next up, how that cancer is a result of bad thinking, no chemo for YOU!
freshwest
(53,661 posts)'You failed the wallet biopsy.'
Miracle cures for the poor!
marble falls
(57,014 posts)and more in therapeutic context - this could well be a good thing.
napoleon_in_rags
(3,991 posts)Otherwise, I can predict future diagnosis from DSM-VI:
1) Economic Anxiety Disorder: Consuming anxiety about economic conditions. Treatable with meds
2) Climate Awareness Disorder: Perceptions of increases in extreme climate events such as storms. Treatable with meds.
3) Zombiphobia: The belief that people all around aren't responding to critical and threatening world events with economy and climate, but are walking around acting like over-medicated zombies. Treatable with meds.
Remember the old stereo-type of the guy in the shrink's office?
"Its not me who's crazy doc, the WORLD is crazy!"
While the doc nods patronizingly. But what when the world is a little crazy? What when we actually do need to make some changes? What precedes such a time is uncomfortable sense that something is wrong. A psychological discomfort. Without meds, that motivates needed change.
Point is, therapists need to be enabled to help people harness the transformative power of psychological condition, not just numb them to it.
marble falls
(57,014 posts)doesn't mean its an illness or needs a prescription.
NoodleyAppendage
(4,619 posts)As a licensed practitioner, I am embarrassed that this load of crap propaganda is in any way associated with my profession.
Sure, there are some conditions that are temporary and associated with psychosocial stressors. We call them "Adjustment Disorders" and there's even DSM-IV codes for the generally time- and situation limited conditions/reactions.
steve2470
(37,457 posts)Back in the 1940's and 1950's, there was literature that schizophrenia (a mental illness if there ever was one) was strongly embedded in dysfunctional family dynamics. In 1954 Thorazine was introduced to treat the disease and psychiatry has never returned to primarily looking at family dynamics or purely psychological causation.
Yes, all mental illnesses have family/psychosocial issues that need to be looked at and treated in some cases, but to dismiss all neuropsychiatric research and the enormous benefits of medication is a big mistake.
Union Scribe
(7,099 posts)
applegrove
(118,501 posts)get the red out
(13,460 posts)All mental health can now be outsourced to Scientology, I'm sure they won't burden the insurance companies with billing when they get the entire person as payment!
King_Klonopin
(1,306 posts)The psychoanalytical community (i.e. psychologists, "talk" therapists)
have been debating with the psychiatric community (i.e. M.D.s who
primarily prescribe medication) since the beginning of the
psychology movement.
Holistic approaches make most sense (to me) when diagnosing and
treating any illness -- mental or physical (as if the two are exclusive)
An Either-Or, All-or-nothing mind set is not helpful in any situation.
It is wise to consider physical, mental, environmental and spiritual
factors regarding any dis-ease. When you see a therapist,
you don't drop off your head in a suitcase and say,"please, fix this."
And, when you see an oncologist, you don't leave your head in the
waiting room while you have chemotherapy.
There may or may not be underlying motives to proposing the
abandonment of "labeling" people with a diagnosis. Who can say?
Diagnoses in the DSM were intended to provide criteria (guidelines)
for treatment based on symptoms and behaviors.
I agree that, as a society, we are assigning the term "disorder" to
what is simply bad/irresponsible behavior in many cases.
I agree that, as a society, we look to fix our problems with pills
or other substances rather than changing our "selves".
I agree that the pharmaceutical industry has a lot invested in
having us be "sick". That certain medications (such as Adderall)
are over-prescribed and certain illnesses (such as Bipolar Disorder)
are over-diagnosed.
Like any science, the knowledge base of psychiatry evolves with
time, and certain beliefs and practices evolve along with it.
Examples have already been mentioned on the thread.
I am wondering if the psychological community, as a whole, is
finally taking steps to clean up the confusion it has allowed.
I have worked in the mental healthcare field for 30 years. I am
an RN (which is medical model) but I also have a degree in psychology.
I have seen cases where medication was essential in treatment and cases
where no amount of medication would ever fix the problem. What
confounds the issues of diagnosis, treatment, and society's perception
of the mentally ill is that too many people are being treated under the
umbrella of mental illnesses.
The DSM divides diagnoses into two major Axes : Axis I covers the
addictions, mood and thought disorders; and Axis II covers the
"personality disorders."
Axis I diagnoses have a biochemical component and will respond
better to medications. Axis II diagnoses are vastly different.
Medications treat their symptoms -- not their causes. If they are to
get well, they have to change their "psyche" (i.e. the personality
and all that defines it.) Yet, in the acute care setting, all are put
together and treated the same. At some point in the future, psychiatric
medicine is going to have to change; for example, stop hospitalizing
people who only get sicker in hospitals (i.e. borderline personality) or who
should be in prison (i.e. sociopathic personality), stop throwing
medications at people in a desperate attempt to fix something that only
the patient can fix, and accept that some problems can't be fixed by
your medicine or therapy.
Addictions can't be fixed with medications or ECT -- but are treatable --
and an addict/alcoholic who has mood swings is not necessarily "BIpolar".
Patients with Personality Disorders who act-out and have tantrums
are not "Bipolar". The nature of their malady exhausts resources which
are already limited and is actually worsened by conventional treatment.
At some point, it may be considered unethical to hospitalize or medicate
people with these disorders.
Alzheimer's Disease, brain injuries, etc. are organic/neurological problems
and are not supposed to be treated as "psychiatric" problems.
Changing the way we use labels and words is not going to change or fix
these problems one damn bit.
mia
(8,360 posts)kestrel91316
(51,666 posts)doesn't exist needs their OWN head examined.
Neoma
(10,039 posts)
nolabels
(13,133 posts)That's why the government spends trillions of dollars on nuclear weapons and people clutch so closely to right to own firearms
mattnapa
(7 posts)I assume the rationality of the supposed mentally healthy is at least part of the question here? So if being well adjusted to a societal norm based on partial insanity is the standard for mental health, then it seems our starting point is flawed. RD Laing is probably also worth mentioning in terms of his idea that sharp mental illness can be a larger opportunity for significant for personal evolution than does everyday conformity
ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Just because.
rollin74
(1,973 posts)after all, why pay to treat something that "doesn't exist" or isn't considered a health problem
another excuse to eliminate coverage and cut funding
smirkymonkey
(63,221 posts)Exactly what I was thinking.
unreadierLizard
(475 posts)Thanks to my "big pharma" medications, I'm finally able to leave the house somedays and not suffer from SEVERE panic attacks that cause me to not be able to function most of the day.
Thanks to my meds, I can talk to people sometimes without feeling the need to run away due to the overwhelming anxiety(only sometimes..but still).
Thanks to my meds, I don't have racing thoughts as much as I used to.
But now I'm being scolded that "this is all caused by experience not illness". I was bullied for fucking 10 years of my life and then this all started -gradually-. I've had therapy. I've had counselling. NOTHING WORKED except the pills. The fact you people are telling me that my -legitimate medical diagnosis- is invalid is fucking disgusting.
I'm filing for disability because i've never had a job or tried to get one because I've been so goddamn afraid to leave my house before the meds(with the meds some days are still hard or impossible). But maybe you're right; I should go off them and just go back to being manic, depressive and socially anxious to the point of panic attacks.
Sage advice.
DeSwiss
(27,137 posts)
leftyladyfrommo
(18,866 posts)Some people just hide it better than others.
CanSocDem
(3,286 posts)..."better than others". Indeed; except on DU where, in threads like this, it practically becomes a claim to fame.
.