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muriel_volestrangler

(101,257 posts)
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 06:56 PM Feb 2012

Santorum bashes public schools, says they're stuck in factory era

In his remarks to the Ohio Christian Alliance, however, Santorum went further, seeming to attack the very idea of public education.

In the nation’s past, he said, “Most presidents homeschooled their children in the White House.… Parents educated their children because it was their responsibility.”

“Yes, the government can help,” he continued, “but the idea that the federal government should be running schools, frankly much less that the state government should be running schools, is anachronistic.”

He said it is an artifact of the Industrial Revolution, “when people came off the farms where they did homeschool or had a little neighborhood school, and into these big factories … called public schools.”

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-pn-santorum-bashes-public-schools-says-theyre-stuck-in-factory-era-20120218,0,4939016.story


Of course, he was happy to defraud a school district in Pennsylvania of $38,000 a year for "cyber school" fees by claiming to live in the state, when the address concerned was lived in by someone else, and he really lived outside the state he was representing.
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Santorum bashes public schools, says they're stuck in factory era (Original Post) muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 OP
He digs a bigger hole with every nutjob comment Faygo Kid Feb 2012 #1
Indeed! Even Republicans may turn asjr Feb 2012 #5
Don't underestimate the level of crazy in the backwash nxylas Feb 2012 #10
I don't think he's mentally deranged... RoccoR5955 Feb 2012 #22
Please, not before he lands some more body blows Surya Gayatri Feb 2012 #7
Another reason why women have to stay home nobodyspecial Feb 2012 #2
Well, obviously, Ricky is a pre-revolutionary Surya Gayatri Feb 2012 #8
No he's not... RoccoR5955 Feb 2012 #23
These four things fit together perfectly: XemaSab Feb 2012 #67
You've described the circular logic perfectly... Volaris Feb 2012 #80
Whereas HE is stuck in the Middle Ages. LiberalEsto Feb 2012 #3
I think Sanscrotum would love... 47of74 Feb 2012 #6
Rick Sanitarium belongs in a padded cell. DinahMoeHum Feb 2012 #4
Guess who is stuck in "Little House on the Prairie?" Downwinder Feb 2012 #9
Well, it's not Santorum jmowreader Feb 2012 #40
Yes, chervilant Feb 2012 #61
In reality it didn't matter anyway... jmowreader Feb 2012 #78
hmm... chervilant Feb 2012 #82
You know, I think this is an interesting perspective... RevStPatrick Feb 2012 #11
He is right about one thing...they ARE a product of the Industrial Revolution. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #12
That's what I'm talkin' about... RevStPatrick Feb 2012 #13
I agree with that. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #14
Indeed! chervilant Feb 2012 #63
What was the class size in the little red schoolhouse? Downwinder Feb 2012 #16
I agree Joe Shlabotnik Feb 2012 #17
That's because schools only teach for a test, they should RoccoR5955 Feb 2012 #24
And how would a non-public school system help everyone get started? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2012 #26
don't misunderstand me, Joe Shlabotnik Feb 2012 #28
Aren't stereotypes fun....when they benefit your views? joeglow3 Feb 2012 #31
There are many fine Catholic schools. I am not overly concerned about their educational standards. olegramps Feb 2012 #58
How come business has no part in this if they want the "workers of tomorrow"? xtraxritical Feb 2012 #35
excellent point Joe Shlabotnik Feb 2012 #37
oh please, as soon as a Republican starts talking about American History Enrique Feb 2012 #56
Not that it happens often, buy a republican CAN be correct. cleanhippie Feb 2012 #57
Uh huh. But religious homeschooling, that's not "anachronistic." DirkGently Feb 2012 #15
Hiring private tutors =/= homeschooling. wickerwoman Feb 2012 #18
hmm... chervilant Feb 2012 #65
Yet when the man on the street is tested on his Math and Science level, the US beats almost all happyslug Feb 2012 #84
Okay... chervilant Feb 2012 #85
One of the reports I read on Schools was to ask if the school had a PTA or a PTO happyslug Feb 2012 #87
Also, chervilant Feb 2012 #86
Oddly enough, those "factory era" schools are the types that the conservatives zbdent Feb 2012 #19
Many years ago, Brigid Feb 2012 #20
Rick says: 'I am an idiot, vote for me and I will home school my children' Angry Dragon Feb 2012 #21
The current education system usrname Feb 2012 #25
Didn't he mean - IDemo Feb 2012 #27
What he means is that public schools employ UNION workers as teachers OmahaBlueDog Feb 2012 #29
Spam deleted by cyberswede (MIR Team) safghjtykt Feb 2012 #30
I'm confused.... unkachuck Feb 2012 #32
What the big deal, Dems do it all the time Nexus7 Feb 2012 #33
Just how are the unions to blame?? Sadie5 Feb 2012 #39
Pl don't transfer the blame Nexus7 Feb 2012 #43
You are completely mistaken about Chicago proud2BlibKansan Feb 2012 #48
Thanks. It is refreshing to hear from someone who actually knows what is happening. olegramps Feb 2012 #59
You're ignoring the main point I made about the union Nexus7 Feb 2012 #72
I have no problem with that proud2BlibKansan Feb 2012 #76
For 12 years,... MarianJack Feb 2012 #34
the founding fathers of this country believed in public education madrchsod Feb 2012 #36
LOL Skittles Feb 2012 #38
Keep talking, Ricky boy, Lex Feb 2012 #41
Projection - that's what republicans want, and are doing. Our best are a century beyond that. saras Feb 2012 #42
Go Little Ricky. Be the nominee. Obama/Democrat Landslide. onehandle Feb 2012 #44
IMO education required for the 21st century, heavy in math and the traditional sciences, RKP5637 Feb 2012 #45
So How Does Bashing Factory Workers DallasNE Feb 2012 #46
Privatizing public schools and prisons ProfessionalLeftist Feb 2012 #47
Time to move into the Sweatshop Era. nt eppur_se_muova Feb 2012 #49
The Ayatollah Santorum, Holy Leader of the American Right, has spoken. pangaia Feb 2012 #50
Truthfully, I don't see any need for Arne Duncan to step down..... Smarmie Doofus Feb 2012 #51
Ding ding ding! Most useful post in thread saras Feb 2012 #54
Yeah, he's such a great example of a well rounded education lunatica Feb 2012 #52
little neighbor hood schools were due to lack of people and transportation Progressive dog Feb 2012 #53
i.e. all those teachers get paid too much Enrique Feb 2012 #55
Fuck you, Frothy. Zoeisright Feb 2012 #60
Wow... chervilant Feb 2012 #62
Romanticizing the 19th century as usual treestar Feb 2012 #64
''and like factories, schools have no place in America--they belong in China!'' yurbud Feb 2012 #66
rick and arne agree. Jakes Progress Feb 2012 #68
Better than being stuck in the dark ages. "Pies lesu Domine. Dona eis requiem" HopeHoops Feb 2012 #69
the Surge-on General recommends .... marasinghe Feb 2012 #83
He attacks "minority" education tooeyeten Feb 2012 #70
hey Rick, get a clue --- the federal gov. does not run schools wordpix Feb 2012 #71
Most presidents homeschooled their children in the White House? SheilaT Feb 2012 #73
home schooling cannot work Kber Feb 2012 #74
Is he running, or just proselytizing? piltdownman Feb 2012 #75
If this guy gets the nomination the R brand will be poison for a generation. Nobody who isn't white Monk06 Feb 2012 #77
I thought no teabagger could ever be crazier than Bachmann but.. workinclasszero Feb 2012 #79
Well! Thank God we're no longer in the modern industrial era! burning rain Feb 2012 #81

nxylas

(6,440 posts)
10. Don't underestimate the level of crazy in the backwash
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:36 PM
Feb 2012

There are plenty in the Republican base who will lap this shit up, and see Santorum as a courageous speaker of truth to power.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
7. Please, not before he lands some more body blows
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:17 PM
Feb 2012

on R-money! Just let him work his mad magic a little longer, especially in Michigan!
SG

nobodyspecial

(2,286 posts)
2. Another reason why women have to stay home
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:02 PM
Feb 2012

to school their children. I guess he wants to turn back the clock to the glory days of the 18th century, where robber barons ruled and the poor died in the streets.

 

Surya Gayatri

(15,445 posts)
8. Well, obviously, Ricky is a pre-revolutionary
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:24 PM
Feb 2012

thinker (both American and French), when the promiscuous peasants bred like rabbits, and the nobility ruled by "divine right"!
SG

XemaSab

(60,212 posts)
67. These four things fit together perfectly:
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 01:50 PM
Feb 2012

1. Homeschooling
2. Stay at home moms
3. Quiverfull thinking (letting God be in charge of your family planning)
4. Wifely submission


There's a line of thinking that runs through all four of these lifestyle choices that feeds perfectly into the next lifestyle choice.

If you're going to submit to your husband, let God be in charge of your family planning, and be a stay-at-home mom, then why would you send your kids to a school that teaches feminism?

If you're going to homeschool, let God be in charge of your family planning, and be a stay-at-home mom, then why would you not submit to your husband's leadership as the Bible clearly instructs?

If you're going to homeschool, submit to your husband, and be a stay-at-home mom, then why would you embrace a family-planning mentality?

If you're going to submit to your husband, let God be in charge of your family planning, and homeschool, then why would you work outside the home?



It's more complicated than this, of course, but once families become convicted in one or more areas the others often fall into place.


Volaris

(10,266 posts)
80. You've described the circular logic perfectly...
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 02:16 AM
Feb 2012

all you need now is a little graph made out on a compass rose, and you could EITHER get a job working for The Santorum Campaign, OR the Committee to Re-elect the President. (Because what the Dems. will call circular logic the nation's idiots will embrace as "absolutely the way its SUPPOSED to be" lol.

 

47of74

(18,470 posts)
6. I think Sanscrotum would love...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:13 PM
Feb 2012

...to have the same kind of government that central Italy had the misfortune to endure under Leo XII.

jmowreader

(50,520 posts)
40. Well, it's not Santorum
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:54 PM
Feb 2012

They had a public school in Little House on the Prairie.

The reality is, Santorum is stuck in fantasyland because we've had public schools since the beginning of the Republic.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
61. Yes,
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 11:56 AM
Feb 2012

one can assert that "we've had public schools since the beginning of the Republic" and one would be right, to the extent that a few public schools existed in our young nation. At that point in the history of public education, only wealthy (and white) men were allowed to attend 'public' schools. Very few citizens of our newly minted nation were educated, and our federally-funded, mandatory system of public education did not exist until well into the 20th century.

For a well-written, well-researched history of anti-intellectualism in the United States, read Susan Jacoby's "The Age of American Unreason."

jmowreader

(50,520 posts)
78. In reality it didn't matter anyway...
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 01:13 AM
Feb 2012

America was dependent on skills you could learn from your dad.

Farming? When you were big enough to do farm chores, you started learning how to farm; by the time you were old enough to leave home and build a farm of your own, or take over the family farm, you knew what you needed to know.

Same thing with fishing, whaling, trapping, mining, mercantilism, or public works.

The things wealthy white males did for a living, like banking and the law, were things you probably didn't WANT to learn from your dad, especially if dad made his living as a defense attorney and you wanted to throw people in jail.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
82. hmm...
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 05:07 AM
Feb 2012

I grew up on a farm. The majority of my knowledge of organic farming did not come from my father.

I don't agree with you that &quot i)n reality it didn't matter anyway..." And, given your assertions, Susan Jacoby would be an eye-opening experience for you.

 

RevStPatrick

(2,208 posts)
11. You know, I think this is an interesting perspective...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:40 PM
Feb 2012

Granted, I think he's bringing this up for all the wrong reasons, and would implement all the wrong solutions to "fix the problem." It's also partly to cover up his own corruption when it comes to schooling his own kids and getting someone else to pay for it.

But it's still an interesting topic for discussion.
Of course, I don't think I'd want to actually have a conversation about this with Mr. Frothy...

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
12. He is right about one thing...they ARE a product of the Industrial Revolution.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:45 PM
Feb 2012

I guess even a broken clock is right twice a day.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
14. I agree with that.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:53 PM
Feb 2012

But the fact remains that the current public school model IS stuck in the factory era, and is no longer working as a method of teaching children. A new way of doing this is needed.


Have you seen this TED video on just this subject?

http://www.ted.com/talks/ken_robinson_changing_education_paradigms.html

Its fascinating, and should be required viewing for Public School Administrators and curriculum planners.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
63. Indeed!
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:24 PM
Feb 2012

I do love this presentation, for several reasons (not the least of which is the creative animation). One of Sir Ken's points stands out for me: the "intellectual model of the mind," which results in "two types of people": "academic and non-academic." For quite some time now, I have called this our species' great psychic wound: that two-thirds to four-fifths of us are convinced that we have 'average or below-average intellects.' What a crock of crapola!

Furthermore, how likely is it that such a stultifying message has contributed to the rampant anti-intellectualism du jour, and the right wing extremists' adjuration that we shouldn't provide public education funded by our tax dollars?!

I recommend Susan Jacoby's "The Age of American Unreason," which provides an essential history of the various socio-cultural elements underpinning our species' growing disdain for all things intellectual.

Downwinder

(12,869 posts)
16. What was the class size in the little red schoolhouse?
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 07:56 PM
Feb 2012

There were two of us in fifth and sixth grades.

Joe Shlabotnik

(5,604 posts)
17. I agree
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 08:40 PM
Feb 2012

The public school system was great for producing educated worker for an industrial society. It worked well, but is becoming obsolete. Children today enrolling in school will eventually be looking for work in jobs, and fields that haven't even been conceived of yet. And the type of rote memorization and long hours, common and praised, in Asian schools is becoming obsolete too. Its going to take a lot of far-sighted determination, money, risk and imagination to re-create schools for the 21st century.

 

RoccoR5955

(12,471 posts)
24. That's because schools only teach for a test, they should
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 09:36 PM
Feb 2012

teach students how to think and learn for themselves. This way, when something new comes up later in life, they can learn it on their own.
Look up the teachings of John Dewey.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,257 posts)
26. And how would a non-public school system help everyone get started?
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 09:48 PM
Feb 2012

Sure, those with rich parents, or perhaps in a rich area (because he didn't seem to rule out a district being allowed to fund education, just states and the nation) would get a good education, and those with moderately well-off parents would get a moderate education; but those in poor areas, with parents out of work, get screwed - for life. And then their children will be screwed, etc., ad infinitum. They might try a religious school, willing to give them the basics for free, in return for heavy indoctrination (because, remember, you've removed the state and federal govt from this, so religious extremists will have a free hand in what gets defined as 'education'), but that screws them just as much - what chances do people have who get taught that science is evil, the world is 6000 years old, and there's no such thing as global warming?

Education standards can be bad enough in many districts in the USA as it is, with the emphasis on local funding; remove the state and federal govt from it, and you'll set in stone the worst class mobility that a developed country has ever seen. Half the country will pass what is now the developing world, as it goes down, and they rise.

Joe Shlabotnik

(5,604 posts)
28. don't misunderstand me,
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:03 PM
Feb 2012

I'm not in ANY way bashing the idea of public schooling. And Santorum and his bunch are totally nuts. I was just pointing out that education for the masses is need of some serious re-tooling. I agree, most couldn't afford or want to go to private schools, and sadly it tends to be a lot of wackos who home-school.

 

joeglow3

(6,228 posts)
31. Aren't stereotypes fun....when they benefit your views?
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:16 PM
Feb 2012

"They might try a religious school, willing to give them the basics for free, in return for heavy indoctrination (because, remember, you've removed the state and federal govt from this, so religious extremists will have a free hand in what gets defined as 'education'), but that screws them just as much - what chances do people have who get taught that science is evil, the world is 6000 years old, and there's no such thing as global warming?"

We have a Catholic school here in the poorest part of town, with well over 90% of the students non-catholic. They manage to operate in a part of town with well below 50% high school graduation rates and offer free education whereby almost 100% graduate high school and the majority go on to college. But, go ahead and stereotype away. It is ago, so long the ignorance and prejudices are against people WE don't like.

olegramps

(8,200 posts)
58. There are many fine Catholic schools. I am not overly concerned about their educational standards.
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 11:39 AM
Feb 2012

However, I am concerned about the indoctrination of children in some evangelical and fundamentalists operated schools that don't have to adhere to the same standards demanded of public schools.

In regard to Santorum, two of his boys attend a school that is dominated by Opus Dei teachers and administrators. They are just as hell bent on indoctrination as some of the fundamentalists.

I also take exception to the claim that the public school system in failing to produce well educated graduates. If one takes out the time to check out the test results you will find that children from the Middle and Upper class dominated schools are excelling. The major problem exists in those schools in areas dominated by kids locked in abject poverty and those struggling to master English.

If people what to actually see just how advanced many of our students are they should take out time to attend a science fair. As a volunteer, I have had the opportunity to see just how advanced many of these kids are in regard to math and science. The real problem is poverty and the host of problems that it breeds.

 

xtraxritical

(3,576 posts)
35. How come business has no part in this if they want the "workers of tomorrow"?
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:09 PM
Feb 2012

I really don't think an education is to become an automaton for business. I think it is the business of education to teach critical thinking and problem solving. Business should consider it a "cost of business" to train employees to do specific jobs for the company.

Joe Shlabotnik

(5,604 posts)
37. excellent point
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:37 PM
Feb 2012

It has always struck me as a bit skewed, that YOU have to work hard, and YOU have to Pay your own way for a higher education, that may or may not get you hired someplace, where THEY benefit from your sacrifice. That has always been the case to some degree, but its gotten worse, as we were told in the early nineties, that no-one should expect a life-long job anymore, but rather be constantly upgrading our skills and education (at our own expense, or peril), so as to be useful, for some new master. Business don't want to invest in training anymore, they just want to open the box, take you out and wind you up. And if you disagree, well then you must be lacking in rugged individualism, and therefore some lazy entitlement seeking parasite.

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
56. oh please, as soon as a Republican starts talking about American History
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 10:50 AM
Feb 2012

the last thing you want to do is take them seriously.

cleanhippie

(19,705 posts)
57. Not that it happens often, buy a republican CAN be correct.
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 11:29 AM
Feb 2012

And in this case, in regards to the school system being a product of the industrial revolution, he is spot on.

One cannot ignore a fact just because it comes out of a wingnuts mouth. It's about the only factual thing he has said, so don't be worried that people are gonna start believing him anytime soon.

wickerwoman

(5,662 posts)
18. Hiring private tutors =/= homeschooling.
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 08:49 PM
Feb 2012

Create an economy where one parent in a blue collar household can afford to stay home and educate the kids Santorum and then we'll talk.

Anything else is just out of touch 1%er bullshit.

And even if they could afford it, how are the 15% of illiterate adults or the 70% of Americans who don't have a college degree or the 20% of Americans who don't speak English as a first language supposed to educate their kids to a standard that is competitive on the international stage?

Are they going to set up computer and chemistry labs in their homes? Organise their own orchestras, newspapers, drama societies, sports teams, etc.? Larger schools create economies of scale that allow them to offer more opportunities and experiences to kids. If Santorum was talking about a non-union corporation he would see this as a good thing. It's only because public education is "socialized" and teachers unions support Democrats that suddenly "big=bad".

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
65. hmm...
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:54 PM
Feb 2012

Current research indicates that as much as 45% of adults in the US are functionally illiterate, e.g., they might be able to read the words in this thread, but they'd be unable to explicate what they've read. Among the general populace, math and science skills are topical at best. According to the most current comparative assessment (the OECD PISA report), the US ranks 27th out of 34 nations with regards to math education.

Since the mid-60s, our system of public education has been increasingly co-opted by the Corporate Megalomaniacs who've usurped our media, our politics, and our global economy. They don't want citizens with critical thinking skills. They want factory fodder and service industry drones. (Note that the 'best' schools on our planet are still the milieux of the very wealthy.)

I just got off the phone with the mother of my newest tutorees, both of whom are attending a prestigious private academy in a posh suburb of Houston. The first time I met with her youngest child, I tried to assess the child's critical thinking skills, using a rather simple geometry problem that required standard algebra skills. It took this young person more than twenty minutes to solve the problem (I did not charge the mother for this extra time, and I am thrilled that the child actually USED critical thinking skills to arrive at the solution). What became crystal clear to me is the fact that the highly-touted, expensive private academy to which these parents proudly send their children is guilty of the same pedantic, rote memorization style of education that pervades our system of public education.

We have got to effect education reform, and it MUST involve individuals OTHER THAN Bill Gates, Michelle Rhee, Arne Duncan, and their ilk.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
84. Yet when the man on the street is tested on his Math and Science level, the US beats almost all
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 07:10 PM
Feb 2012

Notice the test I am using, test of ADULTS on the streets, NOT the best and brightest that are still in school. The US has had some of the lowest education level for decades, but when people on the street are asked question, the US tend to score quite high.

The reason for this difference is primary HOW we educate. Most of the world follows the Prussian school of thought on education, the best and brightest goes to High School, Students who score lower on the test in what we would call Middle Schools are directed to the trades.

The US REJECTS this two track system and wants everyone in High School. The High School may direct some of its students to vo-tech training, but they still go to High School for general Education subjects.

The US method has the side affect of when you test High School students. you test both the students in most other countries's High Schools AND the students in other countries's trade schools. Thus the US will tend to be LOW in most comparisons for most Countries's High School Students EXCLUDE Trade school students. The good side affect is more US students are exposed to broader ideas talked about in High School and Collage. Thus the US STUDENTS tend to score low, but US Adults tend to score High.

As to actually improving Schools. I mention the choice the US Auto Industry (and most of the rest of the US industry) took in the 1950s, and the opposite choice the Japanese Auto Industry (and the rest of Japanese Industry) took in the 1950s. The choice was, do you go with the "Best and the Brightest" (what US companies did) or do you concentrate on improving the WORSE part of your production (The Japanese choice). BOTH options came out of mid century US industry research. The Japan took the word of several top US experts that one can NOT exceed the quality of your worse input, thus to improve quality look at your worse input and improve that part of your product.

American Industry took the opposite view, look at hiring the best and brightest and lets see what they can do. Thus you have the Mustangs, the GTOs, the Hemis of the 1960s, but the problem was quality declined. Great Engines, Large comfortable cars, but no quality control.

The Japanese cars of the 1960s were crap (my Father owned one, rusted out in two years, through the engine was excellent). The Japanese saw they problem and fixed them, concentrating on better paint, installing rust resistant parts in areas cars most often rusted out first, overall concentration on those areas of the Car Japanese cars were known to be weak in. By the early 1970s, Japanese Cars had left their reputation for rust behind them, and were noted to be better fit and finish then their American competitors. This is the product of seeing your worse input and improving on that worse input. American Cars concentrated on large engines, large interior rooms and "Bells and Whistles" i.e. Air Conditioning, radios with Cassette players, later CD players, wrap around sound, cushier sears etc, while overall quality declined (for example Chevrolet in the 1970s and 1980s was know to put parts on a car, with the parts produced in three different plants and painted at those plants, thus hard to get an exact paint match when the parts were assembled into one car).

Now why do I go into the above when the topic is education, the problem is today when you hear of people wanting to "improve" education, it is rarely mentioned about helping to lower the drop out rate, or to improve grades of the lowest 10% of students, i.e. the worse inputs. Instead all you hear is how to improve the "best and the brightest". The student who has been in three to four schools in a single year as that child's parents try to keep a roof over their family's head, is NOT even mentioned in this debate. How do we help the Student who can NOT get any help at home for his parents can not read and write?

No you do NOT hear of such problem students (in many ways Schools are encouraged to kick them out, thus improving their test scores), instead you hear of why can't my child go to an advance placement class? Why is an Advance placement class NOT offered? Advance placement is for the Best and the Brightest, and as a former Best and Brightest student, I can tell you I did NOT need such help. To a good degree I could do it on my own, the problem is the worse input, the lowest 10% of students grade wise. The issue should be how do we help them, and the silence on such help is deafening. These students cost the most to educate, they need support most Schools are NOT set up to provide (i.e. housing and a stable family environment).

Yes, no one wants to address the real problems of education for it will cost money, and the people helped are the least likely to vote (The poor and uneducated are the least likely to vote, the higher your level of education the more likely you will vote, and Politicians know this). On the other hand, such politicians are more then willing to "help" those people most likely to vote, thus the push for private schools. That is the best way to improve the education in the US, an education system in need of reform, but not the type being discussed.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
85. Okay...
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:28 PM
Feb 2012

I think we agree about the caliber of public education pre- and post-mid sixties, although I would appreciate it if you would share the source of your data.

A seminal study of public education in the US (The Coleman Report, 1966) substantiated that the strongest predictors of academic achievement are a student's family and peers. Yet, instead of motivating educators to explore ways to capitalize on these important predictors, this study was "widely interpreted as saying that schools {do} not matter." Our system of public education--and the teachers who carry the responsibility of EDUCATING our children--has gotten short shrift ever since.

BTW, a plethora of studies from the 60s to the present have shown a strong correlation between parental involvement and student success. And I can count on one finger the number of parents who visited my classroom (2008-09, the lone year I was allowed to teach in a public school) to discuss their child's academic success.

IMHO, some of us "survive" our contemporary system of public education, and our critical thinking skills continue to stand us in good stead, despite having been rarely exercised in public schools. Perhaps we become the parents who encourage our children to value critical thinking, and to get a good education.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
87. One of the reports I read on Schools was to ask if the school had a PTA or a PTO
Wed Feb 22, 2012, 02:14 PM
Feb 2012

PTA. Parent-Teachers Associations, is a national organizations and no school can use the term PTA unless they meet the standards set by the National PTA organization, one of which is INPUT FROM PARENTS.

PTO, Parent-Teachers organizations, are formed by schools that can not or do not (Most often the later) want parental input. As a rule these Schools perform much worse then Schools with PTAs.

The difference is how much the school TRIES to get parent's input. You can NOT force a parent to have input, but you can encourage it. i.e. not only sending to the parents the student's grade (Required in every state that I know of) but giving the teachers the support and time to contact any parent of any child that has a problem. Schools with PTOs tend NOT to do this, Schools with PTAs tend to make at least some effort at this.

30 years ago when I was in Collage, I ran across a book that gauged schools (Not as individual schools, but overall looking at what made good schools good and bad school bad). As a whole Public Schools were the best, Catholic Schools were just behind them, with other private schools way below those two. The main reason was parental input, the more parental input the better the schools. Thus Public Schools and Catholic Schools were one and two on the list.

The book then went into the different "Types" of public schools and warned parents to stay away from schools that bragged about their football team. Such schools tend to be quite large, to pull a lot of students to the school. The size of the School and the area it drew from tend to discourage parental input for the school was NOT the center of the Community but a school miles from any community. Such School have no center and thus turn to sports to "Unite" the student body. For this reason such schools tend to have PTOs. Thus all signs of a bad school.

This trend was seen in Rural Schools AND inner city schools. The power the be in such school districts wanted the best education for their children and by that they wanted top end classes (Calculus, Chemistry II and other higher end classes) for their Children. Such schools realized the only way to justify such classes is to get enough students in one location to have such a class, even if 95% of the student body did not need it. Such people managed to get these Collage prep Courses for their children even if it meant that lower educated parents found it impossible to go to that school for any meeting with teachers and that resulted in the school doing worse overall.

The "best" school where I grew up was Mt Lebanon School District, a suburb of Pittsburgh. It had one rule since about 1900 when the district first form, all students will walk to school, at least grade school. This required the township (independent of the School Board, through covering the same area) to install sidewalks in every sub division. Thus you have a post WWII suburb with sidewalks. Most post WWII suburbs were designed around the Automobile, thus it is rare to see sidewalks even in residential areas of such suburbs, but such sidewalks are required by law in Mt Lebanon to this day. The School board and the Township worked together to make sure all schools were local and it was safe for the children to get to the school. It also made it easy for the parents to get to the school after work. Everything worked together to produce an effective school system.

My point is to have an effective School System the parents MUST be involved, such involvement includes making it easy FOR THE PARENTS to get to the school AFTER their have finished work. Large Centralized systems generally can NOT do that UNLESS IT MAKES THE EFFORTS TO DO SO. Mt Lebanon has done so and has done so for almost 100 years (MT Lebanon started as a Trolley Suburb after 1905 and the first Streetcars reached Mt Lebanon, but came into its own starting in the 1920s as an Automobile Suburb).

I point out Mt Lebanon for it is a system that is working. Many urban schools are working IF THE STUDENT BODY IS FROM THE AREA AROUND THE SCHOOL, the problem is most student bodies are NOT. Some of this is do to efforts to integrate schools in the 1960s (in an attempt to "improve" schools, at the cost of NOT actually improving them) but most of it is the result of the elite wanting the best for their children even at the cost of education of most students (and using integration as an excuse to produce the mega schools where such advance subjects would have enough students to justify the cost of the advance classes).

I saw this in my own High School, the "Scholar" program, which I was in, had only two non-whites in it, but we had the ability to take Calculus, Chem II and other advance classes. The other classes were inferior and the teachers knew they did not have to do much for the school was to far away from many of the neighborhoods the children were from. This was made worse when a new high school was built, closer to my home, but the plan was for it to replace at least two almost all African American High Schools, while taking just part of the White Student body from my High School. It made it easier for my parents to go to the school to talk to the teachers, but harder for African American Students, who tend to be from poorer backgrounds with parents who did NOT own a car to get to the new high school.

Side Note: For people who may want to know, I Graduated from South Hills High School in 1977, it is located in the Mt Washington Section of Pittsburgh, my younger brother and sister went to Brashear High School which opened in 1976, to replace Fifth Avenue High School. Brashear was located one river, one steep hill, Mt Washington, then up another steep "Hill" from wher Fifth Avenue High school had been, in the middle of the Hill District of Pittsburgh. The Hill District was and is overwhelmingly African American, many of who relied on public transit. If you wanted parent input from people living in the Hill District, the worse place to put the School was two miles away up and over one hill and then up another.

Here is a Picture of the first hill one must get over:


Given that the Hill District would have a higher percentage of parents without access to an automobile, the location of Brashear made its almost impossible for such parents to get to the school. The nearest public transit was over a mile away from Brashear. This how can parents from the Hill District, who do NOT have access to an Automobile, interact with the teachers of their students when such parents have to walk at least a mile through a part of town their are unfamiliar with? Now it was disclaimed at the time (1976) that this was part of a plan to disrupt parental input, but it was also pointed out the disruption of parental input was NOT even considered when the change was made. I give it as an example of how a School District can SAY they want Parental input, and then does all it can to prevent it.

No parental input is the key to improve schools, but I am never surprised when I run across Schools that say they want Parental input, complain of NOT having any Parental input, but then when you look at the School actual EFFORTS, you see they do all they can to PREVENT such Parental input. Talk is cheap, action cost time and money and many school prefer talk to actually doing what is needed to get Parental input.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
86. Also,
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:32 PM
Feb 2012

In the five years I've struggled to obtain my accelerated teacher's certification, I've seen all manner of defiant, angry, argumentative, frustrated, disinterested, and sarcastic students. These types of students now predominate in public schools. Defiant behavior is virtually ubiquitous among teenagers, but I find it particularly distressing to witness a first or second grader using sarcasm and manipulation to derail a lesson or interrupt a teacher.

Most veteran teachers are fearful of losing their jobs, so there is very little peer support or camaraderie. The poor unfortunates in administrative positions are just as battle-weary and just as unlikely to support teamwork. The ‘bad’ teachers, whose power and control issues exacerbate students’ defiance, are present in every school, charter or public. ‘Good’ teachers are leaving the system every day.

Very little academic education is accomplished in today’s schools. Less than 10% of my classrooms showed any interest in learning the material, and few of them were able to read, follow instructions, or think critically about the material we covered.

Instead, our children are continuing to learn strategies for defying ‘adult authority figures’ and for accomplishing their social agendas throughout the day (don’t get me started about cell phones...). I see young girls wearing expensive push-up bras with cleavage-baring blouses and skin-tight jeans, locking lips in the hallways with young boys, whose pants are riding well below their waists, rendering clearly visible a vast expanse of colorful boxers or briefs. Some of my students would begin the day in ‘dress code’ and end the day wearing something skimpy or revealing, straight out of the pages of Vogue or Cosmo.

I keep reminding my friends and fellow activists that we now live in exponential times. This temporally challenging new paradigm means that we are deluged with visual and auditory stimuli from the time we wake up until we pass out each night from sheer exhaustion. Virtually ALL of our social constructs—but most particularly our parenting strategies and our system of public education—do not reflect this ginormous socio-cultural change. Add to that the fact that our global economy now exemplifies the worst of human traits, and I have to assert that our species is at an evolutionary crossroads.

I sure hope enough of us choose to be the change we hope to see in this world. I suspect that our present day “road less traveled” actually represents an evolutionary cul-de-sac abutting a bottomless abyss. If we are indeed too stupid a species to survive our own hubris, I certainly hope we haven’t inflicted any lasting damage on our amazing planet.

zbdent

(35,392 posts)
19. Oddly enough, those "factory era" schools are the types that the conservatives
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 08:53 PM
Feb 2012

fondly remember ... the ones where the schools were supposed to churn out identical, brain-washed, orders-following drones.

Brigid

(17,621 posts)
20. Many years ago,
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 09:05 PM
Feb 2012

There was a mental hospital here in Indy called Central State Hospital. At one time, it was considered one of the best of its kind in the country. By the time I moved here in the early '90's, it had deteriorated badly, mostly because of lack of funding as I recall; and there was talk of closing it. But questions about what to do with the patients who were there were never adequately addressed. By the mid-'90's, it closed. Soon I started noticing that there were some very strange characters wandering the downtown streets who had not been there before. It didn't take much imagination to figure out where they came from. Eventually, one by one, they disappeared. Now I know what became of at least one of them.

 

usrname

(398 posts)
25. The current education system
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 09:39 PM
Feb 2012

needs a major overhaul, no doubt. But Santorum isn't asking for a forwarding thinking, forward planning option. Instead, he wants to revert back to a time when parents didn't have an option to send their kids to schools.

Parents are not the best teachers. They are, in many cases, the worst, because they don't have the experience as teachers. This whole GOP mentality that people should be totally, completely self-sufficient flies in the face of evidence that indicates collaboration and community are far better ways to help everyone succeed.

IDemo

(16,926 posts)
27. Didn't he mean -
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 09:51 PM
Feb 2012

that school-aged children would be better off working at a factory instead of troublin' their little minds with book learnin'?

OmahaBlueDog

(10,000 posts)
29. What he means is that public schools employ UNION workers as teachers
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:07 PM
Feb 2012

..and since union workers don't vote Republican, by and large, these particular workers are just as bad as factory workers.

P.S. Skinner - a "Union Yes" smilie would be nice. Just sayin'

Response to muriel_volestrangler (Original post)

 

unkachuck

(6,295 posts)
32. I'm confused....
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:23 PM
Feb 2012

"but the idea that the federal government should be running schools, frankly much less that the state government should be running schools, is anachronistic."

....so to be up-to-date and modern, nobody should be running our schools?

"...into these big factories … called public schools."

....I went to public schools and I worked in factories, there are no similarities whatsoever....mr. sanatorium, aren't you being a little hard on public schools, schools that are responsible for educating our children? Do believe schools are necessary? Do you believe in education?

....you seem very un-American to me....don't you like this country?....don't you want our country to succeed?

Nexus7

(228 posts)
33. What the big deal, Dems do it all the time
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 10:38 PM
Feb 2012

Between Obama/Arne Duncan, Daley/Emmanuel, and pretty much every big city (and of course, small city) mayors, they all are rushing headlong into charter schools and other more privatized versions, vouchers, etc. So what's the big deal about Santorum doing it?

Nobody want to talk to unions, and work with them. The unions are to blame too, their public face is always talking about their working conditions, with platitudes about the children. The public schools union in Chicago presented a plan to the city, and they had like 30% pay increase in it.

Sadie5

(1,933 posts)
39. Just how are the unions to blame??
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:42 PM
Feb 2012

In my area only the Repugs are talking about vouchers and charter schools, No Democrats are pushing this stuff. The Republicans are so gung ho on closing down public schools. You seem to like the Republican views on education. Mitch Daniels shorted the public schools almost 300 million last year in his quest to close them down. Then suddenly found the same exact amount squirreled away in a general account. And...as little as teachers make, I think they deserve a raise! Some of these teachers at charter schools are not even qualified to teach as they lack credentials to do so.

Nexus7

(228 posts)
43. Pl don't transfer the blame
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:31 AM
Feb 2012

Whoa, I seem to like Repub views on education? And where exactly did I say that?

I pointed out that prominent Dems, starting from Arne Duncan/Sec Ed are pushing non-traditional public schooling. And I pointed out that in many cases, such as in Chicago, unions are no help at all in securing a quality traditional public education, they publicly advocate for their own benefits first.

So why rail on Santorum, everyone's doing it?

proud2BlibKansan

(96,793 posts)
48. You are completely mistaken about Chicago
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 04:13 AM
Feb 2012

The CTU is a tireless advocate for the children in Chicago and is currently fighting school closings which harm the students and their communities. There is so much support for the union's work on this issue that Rahm is paying people to attend meetings and rallies and speak out in support of the closings.

There are NO Democrats making the same kinds of outrageous statements about public education as Santorum. And I say that as a teacher who is adamantly opposed to Obama and Duncan's education policies.

Nexus7

(228 posts)
72. You're ignoring the main point I made about the union
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:19 PM
Feb 2012

They're asking for a 30% pay raise over 2 years.
http://patdollard.com/2012/02/chicago-teachers-demand-30-pay-increase-despite-being-worst-school-system-in-nation/

And I didn't equate the outlandishness of the statements that Santorum on the one hand, and Obama/Duncan on the other, are making. I mean, duh. Santorum is whack-job.

I'm questioning how concerned the CTU can be about the student's futures, when, in their comprehensive plan for education, they stick in a 30%/2-year pay raise. I understand, teachers are under-paid, and it is a big reason graduates don't find teaching attractive. But c'mon, 30% over 2 years? With the city, in what, a $600 M deficit?

proud2BlibKansan

(96,793 posts)
76. I have no problem with that
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 08:30 PM
Feb 2012

I wish my union would ask for a 30% raise for us.

The finances in the city of Chicago and the school district are a mess. BoA is charging the school district an exorbitant interest rate on loans they are refusing to renegotiate. The Board of Trade is threatening to leave the city without a tax write off deal. If municipalities would stop giving sweet tax deals to corporates that can well afford to pay their fair share, then perhaps we could pay our teachers and other govt employees better salaries. The only way we can hope for that to happen is to start asking for the raises we know we deserve.

MarianJack

(10,237 posts)
34. For 12 years,...
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:07 PM
Feb 2012

...Pennsylvania had 1 senator and Virginia had 3.

As I've said since 1993, little ricky santorum is a little shit. I want him to be the nominee because I want to see him humiliated coast to coast. A little ricky nomination will be a concession of the election by the rethugs, probably in the hopes of purging the teabaggers after a massive loss. Both parties have done this in my lifetime (I'm 56) when a presidential election seems out of reach, as this one appears to be shaping up.

PEACE!

madrchsod

(58,162 posts)
36. the founding fathers of this country believed in public education
Sat Feb 18, 2012, 11:36 PM
Feb 2012

the differences were whether the states or the federal government should run the schools.

in the mid 1800`s my county set aside 160 acres of farm land to support public schools.

once again rickie has`t a clue about what he is talking about......

RKP5637

(67,078 posts)
45. IMO education required for the 21st century, heavy in math and the traditional sciences,
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 01:49 AM
Feb 2012

and in computer science is probably beyond the capabilities of many parents to provide.

Some parents probably struggled through school and well might not be the best qualified to teach a student. And, the social mingling is lost ... to me, it's a very myopic education. ... and with both parents often working, who does the teaching.

And in my case my parents were brilliant and lacked the patience to teach an offspring.

ProfessionalLeftist

(4,982 posts)
47. Privatizing public schools and prisons
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 03:42 AM
Feb 2012

is big business's wet dream. They hate, hate, hate, anything publicly funded. The money ought to be funnelled into private hands. That's their game. As for Sanitorium, he likely wants kids indoctrinated with American Taliban beliefs which either means homeschooling or church-run schools.

pangaia

(24,324 posts)
50. The Ayatollah Santorum, Holy Leader of the American Right, has spoken.
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 08:27 AM
Feb 2012

However, he does not understand the word "anachronistic."

 

Smarmie Doofus

(14,498 posts)
51. Truthfully, I don't see any need for Arne Duncan to step down.....
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 08:34 AM
Feb 2012

... as Ed Sec. in the (unlikely) event of a Santorum victory.

I do believe he's even said as much.

lunatica

(53,410 posts)
52. Yeah, he's such a great example of a well rounded education
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 09:27 AM
Feb 2012

Why he's read the bible from cover to cover and who needs anything more?

Progressive dog

(6,898 posts)
53. little neighbor hood schools were due to lack of people and transportation
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 10:34 AM
Feb 2012

In the 1600's, every town of more than 50 households in Massachusetts was required to have a public school to teach the 2 R's (and religion).
If there were more than 100 households' a grammar school was required.
the industrial revolution had not yet taken place.,

Enrique

(27,461 posts)
55. i.e. all those teachers get paid too much
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 10:48 AM
Feb 2012

all the money we're wasting on teacher salaries and pensions should be used for tax cuts and profits for corporate schools.

chervilant

(8,267 posts)
62. Wow...
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:07 PM
Feb 2012

How DARE Santorum use a word like 'anachronistic' without genuflecting in the direction of the public school at which he learned to read!

treestar

(82,383 posts)
64. Romanticizing the 19th century as usual
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 12:25 PM
Feb 2012

Yeah, well off people had governesses and tutors. The poor had no education at all. That's what the public schools corrected.

wordpix

(18,652 posts)
71. hey Rick, get a clue --- the federal gov. does not run schools
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 03:51 PM
Feb 2012

They are run by states and cities and charter boards, but not by the fed gov.

sigh. He is showing his stupid more with each day.

 

SheilaT

(23,156 posts)
73. Most presidents homeschooled their children in the White House?
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 05:51 PM
Feb 2012

Really?

First off, most presidents didn't have school age children while in the White House. The ones I know of in the past fifty years sent their kids to school outside the WH. Caroline Kennedy had pre-school and kindergarten in the WH, if I recall correctly, but they were run by some kind of professional teachers. Mrs. Kennedy certainly didn't spend her time doing it.

If the k-12 education in this country is so terrible, how come anyone gets into any college any more? Or why aren't the best colleges in this country inhabited almost only by foreign students? How does any public school student ever get into any decent secondary school?

Personally, I think that considering home schooling isn't such a bad idea. Not because very many people could or should do it, but because by thinking about it you'll think really hard about what you want your kid to get out of regular (public, private, parochial) school.

Kber

(5,043 posts)
74. home schooling cannot work
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 06:44 PM
Feb 2012

if you have 2 working parents or live in a single parent house hold.

This is just another attach on women joining in the modern world.

Just saying.

piltdownman

(5 posts)
75. Is he running, or just proselytizing?
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 06:49 PM
Feb 2012

The longer he goes on and the more whack ideas he brings forth, the more I think that Rick really isn't running for President, but is instead just trying to bring every strange dominionist idea into the public realm while he has a chance. He has an incredible high profile right now -- and nothing to win or lose. I think he's smart enough to know that he would be crushed if he got the nomination -- so why not just set himself up as the "prophet" for his brand of Catholofacism? It will guarantee him a long and profitable career when this ride is over...

Thoughts?

Monk06

(7,675 posts)
77. If this guy gets the nomination the R brand will be poison for a generation. Nobody who isn't white
Sun Feb 19, 2012, 10:36 PM
Feb 2012

male and over 55 will vote for him. That is not the majority demographic to say the least.

Plus in a debate Obama will make Santorum look like the lunatic he is. I'd be surprised if
Santorum's wife votes for him.
 

workinclasszero

(28,270 posts)
79. I thought no teabagger could ever be crazier than Bachmann but..
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 02:08 AM
Feb 2012

Little Pope Ricky has proved me wrong! The man is a fucking LOON!

The SOB wants to force America back to medieval times! Fuck him, his dominion cult followers, his child molesting church and the horse they rode in on!

If this insane bastard actually got elected with control of the Congress he would plunge America into a new dark age and prolly start burning democrats at the stake!

burning rain

(4,393 posts)
81. Well! Thank God we're no longer in the modern industrial era!
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 03:16 AM
Feb 2012

Now that we've reverted to an agrarian economy, we can safely revert to doing it all on the farm.

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