Officials: Gunman Opens Fire During Municipal Meeting, Leaves At Least 2 Dead [Ross Township]

[Bosonic]

Source: WNEP

Ross Township — There is a developing story in the Poconos at this hour.

Monroe County Officials confirm two people are dead after they say a gunman opened fire during a municipal meeting in Ross Township, near Saylorsburg.

Investigators say gunfire erupted around 7:20 p.m. Monday.

Right now there is no word on how many others are injured in Monday night’s shooting.

Read more: http://wnep.com/2013/08/05/officials-gunman-opens-fire-during-municipal-meeting-leaves-at-least-2-dead/

[onehandle]

1. Second Amendment Remedies. nt

[Mr. David]

2. Where?

State please?

[hack89]

3. Pennsylvania nt

[Moonwalk]

4. If no one at the meeting was carrying a gun to shoot back, expect them to be blamed for being shot.

It's a crazy country we live in when victims are always to blame for whatever crime that happens to them and criminals are never held responsible.

[JimDandy]

27. Yes...two threads with blame-the-victim posts just today on DU!

If those sick posters are in LE, in any capacity, they really need to be removed.

[Journeyman]

5. Weren't these the people (rural Pennsylvania) who took offense at Obama's Guns & God comment?. . .

Or, I should say, the people over whom pundits and politicians took umbrage with Obama?

I wonder what will be said now, in the aftermath of a Second Amendment Remedy to a political situation?

[Ednahilda]

15. Ross Township is pretty rural,

but most of the people who have moved here over the last 20 years or so are transplants from New Jersey and New York City. My guesstimate is that the newcomers outnumber the native stock now. Still a lot of farmers, but it's not unusual to see women in stiletto heels shopping at the local supermarket; probably not farm wives. Years ago, people spoke Pennsylvania German at the deli, but I haven't heard that in a long time.

[OldRedneck]

6. At the risk of being wrong . . .

Remember the PA police chief who was called out last week for posting his rants on YouTube about "libtards?" The one with the website calling on "patriots" to take up arms against "libtards," "socialists," and the like??

Is that place anywhere close to this place??

[Ruby the Liberal]

10. Ha! Beat me to it by 3 minutes...

[starroute]

17. Yeah, he's in Gilberton -- in Schuylkill County

This shooting was in Monroe County, just two counties over in the eastern part of the state. It's old coal mining territory -- Carbon County, which lies between them, was named for its coal -- and is now pretty depressed.

[Ednahilda]

18. Nope. Not close.

See my comment below

[KansDem]

52. By the way, was this fellow picked up for making terrorists threats?

Seems to me calling for violence against citizens constitutes terrorists threats.

[TheCowsCameHome]

7. Probably over some stupid incident.

This country is so screwed up.

[ConcernedCanuk]

58. "This country is so screwed up"

.
.
.

Sadly

I have to agree.

I lived in San Diego for over a year 79 -80

One place I rented a room at was with two young (under 30) vets from Vietnam.

Being a curious guy I asked about Vietnam. One guy left the room immediately.

The other briefly told me some horrendous stuff, then looked me directly in my eyes

and said "don't EVER ask me about what we did over there - EVER" pointing directly at me.

He was ashamed at what he did over there "for his country".

I never asked again.

I got the message.

CC

[Ruby the Liberal]

8. How far is this from where the top cop was put on hiatus

for his inane "u librals" youtube rants complete with semi/auto gunfire?

[Ednahilda]

12. Not very close.

I live in Ross Township in Monroe County - where nothing ever happens, until now. My house is about 3 miles away from the municipal building. Called the family to tell them not to come home on Route 115, because it's probably closed. Monroe County's eastern border is the Delaware River which separates it from New Jersey. Gilberton, home of Gun Nut Cop, is in Schuylkill County, two counties to the west and my guess is that it must be at least a 45 minute drive from here. On the whole, Ross Township seems to be somewhat conservative (my observation), but I never noticed an abundance of crazies, and I've lived here for years.

It was my conservative neighbor who called to tell me to lock my doors, by the way.

[Ruby the Liberal]

22. Sorry to hear you are in the midst of this

Lord almighty, The T in Pennsyltucky will end up being the end of all of us.

[sweetapogee]

55. I'm in Carbon Co.

I remember reading about the shooter in the Times News a few years ago (re: buckets of sewage in his yard).

[KG]

9. yay, guns!

this message brought to you by: The Daily Isolated Incident.

[msanthrope]

11. My State!!! Yaaaaaahhhh GUNZ!!!!! nt

[tabasco]

13. Was he standing his ground?

Why didn't everybody at the meeting return fire and save the day?

[BlueManFan]

14. But It's Our Freedom to be Armed to the Teeth

and we know the terrorists hate us for our freedoms so that should explain why we needed to go on a heightened terror warning status.

[BlueManFan]

16. But I'M Not An America Hater

I learned that lesson the hard way!

[ancianita]

19. They're not close to each other, but within an hour's driving distance, I'd say.

Saylorsburg is east of a line drawn between Scranton and Allentown, and Gilberton is west of that line.

[Dash87]

20. Let me guess -

The cops knew about him but couldn't do anything. He was the town nut that ranted about bizarre things that made no sense. He also had a bizarre fascination with guns. He was a ticking time bomb that nobody could do anything about, and he just exploded.

That seems to be the case in all of these shootings.

[Ednahilda]

21. Here's a link to the account of a Pocono Record reporter who was at the meeting.

According to this, the shooter was taken down by the Open Space Commissioner who used his own gun on the shooter.

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130805/NEWS/130809867

Oops! My son read the article and his impression is that Bernie Kozen used the shooter's gun, not his (Bernie's) gun. "His" gun isn't very precise in English.

[theHandpuppet]

23. Looks like Mr. Kozen was a hero who probably saved many lives

What a senseless tragedy.

[Jenoch]

31. I just read the story and the words were

quite clear. The reporter on the scene said Mr. Kozen used 'his own gun' to shooter the perp in this shooting.

[Ednahilda]

36. Just listened to the police news briefing from Snydersville

and they said that the shooter's gun was taken from him by Bernie Kozen, who used the shooter's own gun. It was not Mr. Kozen's gun.

The shooter has been identified as Rockne Newell, who has had a many, many years-long issue with the Ross Township board about the abysmal condition of his property on Flyte Road, which looks more like an unlicensed junk yard. He was finally ordered to clean out his property last September, which he kinda, sorta did. This property is about 1 1/2 miles from my house and I have driven by at least a jillion times. It is a dump. The "house" is some sort of shed which looks like it was made of cheap pressed board, which is rotting away. No plumbing, either. Several houses worth of junk is strewn all over the wooded property.
Right now there are dogs and a bomb squad all over the property.

[Jenoch]

37. The Pocono Record has been 'updating' (changing)

the story. When I first went to the link, it said Mr. Kozen bearhugged the shooter and then Mr. Kozen used his own gun to shoot him.

As with all of these types of stories, it takes awhile for the details to emerge in a coherent manner.

[Ednahilda]

42. It's sentences like this that drive me crazy.

In Swedish, for example, there would have been no confusion, because there is a special, reflexive form of the possessive "his" that refers back to the subject of the sentence and another form which refers to a separate person. The sentence "He took his dog for a walk" would not be ambiguous, because the form of the word "his" would indicate whether it was the subject's own dog or the dog belonging to some other male. We don't have that wonderful differentiation in English, so we have to repeat nouns to make things really clear.

But I digress.

[Jenoch]

46. The version of the story that I first read said the

Mr. Kozen used his 'own' gun to shoot the shooter.

[theHandpuppet]

39. Condolences to the families in your area

There will be many grieving tonight.

Senseless violence from an obviously disturbed man.

[Ednahilda]

43. We're still waiting for the names of the victims.

I doubt they'll be available before some time tomorrow.
We've been trying to call a neighbor who sometimes goes to the township meetings, but she is not home. I hope it's just a coincidence.
I'm sure that we'll know at least one of the victims; Saylorsburg is not a big place.

[tularetom]

51. There are nutcase loners like this in rural areas all over the country

Our county is loaded with 'em. They gravitate to places like this because they were unable to deal with life in more developed areas. The places they live in are not only eyesores they are also breeding grounds for mosquitos and rats. Abatement has become a sticky issue for local governments.

Several rural counties here in CA have placed uniformed deputies and metal detectors at the entrance to their courts and chambers, I guess because of fear of incidents like this.

[sweetapogee]

69. they gravitate

to places like this tularetom? Places like what? Rural vs. Urban crazies? Please explain.

[Ednahilda]

24. Three are dead

according to county coroner Bob Allen.
At least three are in critical condition.

[calimary]

47. Damn. This is just too much. Have we had enough gun violence yet, America?

Or do we want more? How much is okay? How much before even the gun crazies cry uncle?

[hexola]

56. I dont see this as a gun issue...

More like local tyranny...

[alfredo]

70. So it is tyranny for a town to enforce health, safety, and public nuisance laws?

Do you see the militia leader two counties over a tyrant?

[billh58]

25. But gun homicides

are on the decline. I was assured of this just yesterday by official Gungeon spokespeople who maintain that emotional responses (such as evidenced on this thread) to the daily shootings in this country are from the Liberal "talking points" guide, and shouldn't be taken seriously. In fact, such blatant attempts to tug on America's heartstrings are downright Republican-speak the DU Gungeoneers assure me.

Nothing to see here folks. Move along and look on the bright side: our Second Amendment civil right to shoot each other is more important than a few insignificant deaths at the hands of responsible gun owners.

This message has been brought to you by the NRA University in the interest of an informed and armed Republic, and like-minded right-wingers everywhere.

http://swampland.time.com/2013/08/03/inside-nra-university-the-gun-group-takes-supporters-to-school/

[msanthrope]

26. Updated to Three Dead--Shooter Alive.

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130805/NEWS/130809868

[ck4829]

28. Here is their list of meetings and even minutes since 2011, all seems very uneventful

http://rosstwp.com/departments/meting-minutes/

A very odd target I think.

[rucky]

29. I'm not even sure this is illegal anymore. n/t

[rickford66]

30. guns are everywhere down there

I grew up in Scranton and lived and worked in the Poconos for several years. Lots of guns. Had a friend who shot rats in his kitchen with a 22. Had a landlord who poached deer out of his window at night, right above our bedroom window. Had friends who poached deer also. My neighbor had a bullet hit above her head while standing in her front doorway. Had a neighbor hit with a shotgun blast while driving down the road by a hunter shooting across the road. It's just as bad here in upstate NY. We never walk our woods during hunting season and also are very careful what we wear walking down the road. Thank God it's still a little hard to get a legal weapon here. By the way. Bill O got his TV start at WNEP.

[Nanjing to Seoul]

32. Okay, cue NRA talking points about guns from Gundamentalists in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1. . .

[Tx4obama]

33. Update: THREE dead, FOUR wounded

Three dead, four wounded in Pennsylvania town hall shooting

(CNN) -- Three people were killed and four more were wounded in a shooting at a town supervisor's meeting in eastern Pennsylvania, county officials reported Monday.

The shooting broke out shortly after 7:30 p.m. ET at the Ross Township building in Saylorsburg, about 75 miles north of Philadelphia, Monroe County Emergency Management Director Guy Miller told CNN. A suspected gunman was in custody, and the wounded were being taken to various hospitals nearby, Miller said.

Two of the victims were dead at the scene, while a third died while being flown to a hospital in Allentown, about 25 miles away, Monroe County Coroner Bob Allen said.

-snip-

Full post here: http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/05/us/pennsylvania-town-hall-shooting/index.html

[NutmegYankee]

34. CNN update -Four people were killed and several more were wounded in a shooting at a town supervisor

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/05/us/pennsylvania-town-hall-shooting/index.html

[Tx4obama]

40. Pennsylvania state police correct death tally after shooting rampage at town meeting: 3 dead, not 4

Breaking News ‏@BreakingNews 4m

Pennsylvania state police correct death tally after shooting rampage at town meeting: 3 dead, not 4 - @AP, @PoconoRecord

https://twitter.com/BreakingNews/status/364594536321777667

[Agnosticsherbet]

35. Look, those guns have rights....

the people, not so much.

[Pilotguy]

38. Looks like the shooter had a land dispute with the Town Supervisors

http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20130610/NEWS/306100327

By Andrew Scott
Pocono Record Writer
June 10, 2013

Ross Township hopes to buy a Flyte Road property, deemed an eyesore and up for sheriff's sale next month, to clean it up and remove what it calls a stream obstruction.

Ruling in the township's favor, Monroe County Court last August ordered Rockne Newell, 59, to vacate and never again occupy or use the property, unless he has the proper permits to do so.

The township's efforts to take over the land he's owned since 1990 are the latest development in an 18-year battle against Newell.

"This is total (horse excrement)," said Newell, who has been living out of his 1984 Fiero and in abandoned buildings since being ordered to vacate.

"They have no right to kick me off my property. They call my property an 'eyesore.' When I bought it, it was one of only three properties on the entire road that didn't have what they call 'junk.'"

[LarryNM]

41. He Sounds like some of the Deluded Survivalist/Hoarders

as seen on Cable TV stations. Always rambling incoherently about their rights. Refuse any help from anyone. Enough. Start taking these people into custody and keeping them there for the safety of themselves and others.

[Ednahilda]

44. He'd have a tough time surviving on the crap that's on his property.

Absolutely nothing worth using; it looks like a bunch of garbage trucks just vomited all over the place.

[Sunlei]

45. evict people from their only home after years of local board pressure- happens a lot.

Look how the local township board was planning to buy from the sheriffs sale probably for pennies on the dollar value.

Not right for the now homeless man to go gunning for the townships board. But he really did have his rear backed to the wall.

It just doesn't seem right that the board of directors who pushed at the man for 18 years can then buy the property.

The township could have just done the clean-up needed and charged the man the costs, along with his yearly required county/state-property tax bill.

[FlaGranny]

53. While the owner

stood by doing nothing? Most likely he would have started shooting at them for removing all his "treasures."

I find it extremely sad that some people have more love for a piece of garbage than they do for others or even their own well being. He probably should have been under custodial care, but we don't do that any more.

[kentauros]

59. Oh, he's not homeless.

He has a home (and soon, another one elsewhere) made of concrete and steel.

Personally, I feel the government there should have gone further than the "eyesore" charge and condemned his property on code and/or hygiene violations. If it was rat infested, that's grounds enough in some places to condemn and evict.

Sure, he'd probably have started shooting at any officials showing up on his property, but I would expect they would have also expected the same and been prepared. Hopefully, if they ever have this kind of problem again, that they get serious and take action quickly.

[tofuandbeer]

48. Here's his FaceBook page (I think):

https://www.facebook.com/rockne1865?fref=ts
A lot of his postings are left leaning, and then there's a gun posting that looks very conservative.

[hexola]

57. Maybe - but no posts regarding this conflict...

Doesnt quite fit the character in other news pieces...some of it fits though.

[tofuandbeer]

72. I guess it was kind of silly to post it on DU, if there was nothing regarding the topic on hand.

Thanks.

[jtuck004]

49. "Most Dangerous Man In The World". No, not the shooter, the Muslim guy...

This doesn't have anything to do with the tragedy of the shooting, I just thought it was interesting.

Some folks are all amped up about this Turkish fella, who runs charter schools in the U.S., lives in the town where the shooting happened. They say it is part of a secret movement, etc, linked to Erdoğan in Turkey, Muslim Brotherhood, and all that. A Florida couple seems to have made it their mission to push other people to demonstrate and pressure this guy to leave the country. I have no clue as to whether they have anything substantial or if it is just a religious\politicial disagreement, but as far as I know he has never taken up a gun and shot up a city council chamber. So it seems a bit ironic that they think HE is the dangerous one. Probably safer than picketing the guy who actually did shoot and kill people. Their protest might have ended a lot more tragically...

Hundreds of people from across North America are expected to flood Saylorsburg on Saturday to protest a controversial Turkish figure, Fethullah Gülen, who has lived in the area for more than a decade.

A Turkish couple in Florida said they began circulating a flier on social media two weeks ago, encouraging people to come to the Poconos to protest a man they say is a danger to the U.S. and their home country. The protest is set for 1 p.m. by Gülen's home and retreat center on Mount Eaton Road.
...Dangerous' man

Eda Yilmaz hesitated to give her name in a phone interview Tuesday from Florida for fear, she said, of reprisal. She translated for her husband, Armagan Yilmaz, who circulated the flier.
...

Here.

"He's the most dangerous man in the world right now," Eda translated, speaking about Gülen.
...

Maybe it's the emphasis on math that scares them, Here, though when they start talking about how he intends to educate a bunch of kids in secret and then use them against America, I start wondering if their tinfoil is showing. Or maybe they are afraid the school is planning on registering them all as Republicans and running them for Congress...

Misplaced fear, perhaps.

[iamthebandfanman]

50. thank goodness there were guns

to stop the gun of the guns who were guns when the guns went gun!!!!!!

GUNS GUNS GUNS!!!

[Ednahilda]

60. Those Pocono Record photos don't show the full picture of this property.

It's about a mile from my house and I drive Flyte Road at least once a week.
To call it a dump is to be very, very kind. It would not surprise me to find out that there were serious health and environmental issues on that land. It's really, really bad. I feel sorry for the houses nearby.

Here's a passage from today's Pocono Record:

"He got a building permit from the township to have a storage structure on the property, but then built a dwelling without first getting a zoning permit or certificate of occupancy from the township.

Over the years, authorities have responded to Newell's property as a result of neighbor complaints and on one occasion in 2009 found human fecal matter in buckets there, according to previous reports in the Pocono Record. The township determined he was improperly disposing of sewage with no septic system or permit for one."

The "dwelling", by the way, looked like it was built with scrap pieces of pressed board. It was rotting and falling down.

[hexola]

61. So what - he seemed healthy enough.

The govt should be helping him clean up and keep his property...not trying to persecute him - and they buy his property.

[Ednahilda]

62. You're assuming he'd be willing to cooperate with the local gummint.

I didn't follow this story over the years, so I really don't know what kind of offers of help may have been made and what his response was. He's owned the property since 1990 and tax records indicate he paid $500 for the 1 1/4 acres. Extremely cheap at the time, when an acre lot elsewhere in Saylorsburg could go for $10,000 to $20,000.

Nonetheless, his actions showed little to no concern for his neighbors. The local board has to represent them, too.

[hexola]

63. I tend to think the townships goal of owning the land might be straw...

that broke him...

Its one thing to evict him - but when your evictors will be the next owners...that can cause a problem.

[Paladin]

65. Yeah, well. Thank Christ he had a gun with which to adjudicate the matter.

[Ednahilda]

66. I don't.

The land is quite sloped with a creek running through it. Couldn't really do anything profitable with it. The little bridge that allowed access to the property washed away . . . I'm willing to bet that the cost of constructing a safe, code-compliant bridge would cost more than the property is worth since the tax value of the property is listed at just under $2500. Heck, it would cost more than that just to have the debris removed.

I understand from a neighbor who knows much more about this than I do that this dispute has been more than a decade in the making and that Mr. Newell has refused to comply with every single one of the board's requests.

[One_Life_To_Give]

64. Lack of Mental Health Care

I guess he didn't make it onto Hoarders.

Very sad because this should have been preventable. Atleast in hindsight it's very obvious this guy needs help yet our public health systems are not equipped to be proactive with the many who need such services. Having some specialist getting involved won't stop them all but atleast it would provide some medical evidence for confiscating his firearms. We are not going to eliminate all hunting rifles from the rural area's.

[Safetykitten]

67. There really should be a shooting incident of the day report. Like the weather.

Sickening.

[theHandpuppet]

71. I was a youngster...

... but I remember during the Vietnam War there was a casualty count every evening at the end of the nightly news. Brings the reality home to roost. I think the media should still be doing this, not only for those killed abroad in overseas conflicts but for those killed at home. It wouldn't take long for folks to figure out that we're killing more of our own than any terrorists. It might also smack people in the face with the level of gun violence in this country.

[Ednahilda]

68. The names of the victims have been released.

From the Pocono Record:

"The three people killed last night at the Ross Township meeting have been identified in the criminal complaint as Chestnuthill Township Supervisor David Fleetwood and residents Gerard J. Kozic, 53, of Saylorsburg, and James LaGuardia, 64, also of Saylorsburg . . . Also injured in the shooting were Linda Kozic and Frank Piriano Jr."