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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 07:17 AM Feb 2012

Canada threatens trade war with EU over tar sands

Canada has threatened a trade war with European Union over the bloc's plan to label oil from Alberta's vast tar sands as highly polluting, the Guardian can reveal, before a key vote in Brussels on 23 February.

"Canada will not hesitate to defend its interests, including at the World Trade Organisation," state letters sent to European commissioners by Canada's ambassador to the EU and its oil minister, released under freedom of information laws.

The move is a significant escalation of the row over the EU's plans, which Canada fears would set a global precedent and derail its ability to exploit its tar sands, which are the biggest fossil fuel reserve in the world after Saudi Arabia. Environmental groups argue that exploitation of the tar sands, also called oil sands, is catastrophic for the global climate, as well as causing serious air and water pollution in Alberta.

Darek Urbaniak, at Friends of the Earth Europe, which obtained the new documents, said: "These letters are further evidence of Canadian government and industry lobbying, which continuously undermines efforts to combat climate change. We find it unacceptable that the Canadian government now openly uses direct threats at the highest political levels to derail crucial EU climate legislation."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/feb/20/canada-eu-tar-sands

I have a vague recollection of seeing this subject last week but cannot locate here. If this is a duplicate just say and I will delete.

37 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Canada threatens trade war with EU over tar sands (Original Post) dipsydoodle Feb 2012 OP
Canada is being run by neocons... JohnnyChill Feb 2012 #1
Ditto here. nt. polly7 Feb 2012 #2
Our prime minister is a hard right neocon AlbertCat Feb 2012 #4
Nah, there already is a neocon in charge... Fearless Feb 2012 #14
I doubt ANY politician of any stripe is going to stop exploiting the tar sands. Snake Alchemist Feb 2012 #8
Massive subsidies sulphurdunn Feb 2012 #3
Prople get what they vote for. nt nanabugg Feb 2012 #5
Unfortunately if put to a vote in this country banned from Kos Feb 2012 #6
Except it's not going towards cheap fuel in this country. left on green only Feb 2012 #27
Your post should be required reading for everyone that joins DU. snagglepuss Feb 2012 #31
Why should it go to cheap fuel in the US, anyway? Spider Jerusalem Feb 2012 #34
And you know what makes me seriously sick about all of this polly7 Feb 2012 #36
The US DoD uses less than 2% of the total amount of US energy consumption. Spider Jerusalem Feb 2012 #37
If Canada thinks their product is so safe EC Feb 2012 #7
As a Texan who has seen the havoc refineries wreck on the health of efhmc Feb 2012 #12
Canada does have refineries. polly7 Feb 2012 #18
Thanks for the info. efhmc Feb 2012 #24
Yvw. polly7 Feb 2012 #25
Exactly...I'm beginning to resent the foreign TV advertising too... Historic NY Feb 2012 #17
Canada has been using it and exporting it to the US for more than forty years Sen. Walter Sobchak Feb 2012 #28
They should just buy their oil from Iran. Oh,wait. Swede Feb 2012 #9
Time for Tariffs and duties imposed on polluting countries on point Feb 2012 #10
But have to define 'polluting countries.' elleng Feb 2012 #16
Lete's start with those who don't sign and adhere to carbon treaties - like the US and China on point Feb 2012 #26
"Canada fears would set a global precedent and derail its ability to exploit its tar sands" KansDem Feb 2012 #11
It IS highly polluting and SHOULD be labeled as such. Fearless Feb 2012 #13
Privatize the profits, socialize the losses Gringostan Feb 2012 #15
In a sane world.... JJW Feb 2012 #19
wow, and I thought Canadians were supposed to be flamingdem Feb 2012 #20
I truly despise the tar sands and wish every last drop of that crap would dry up instantly, but polly7 Feb 2012 #21
Yikes, there are so many factors at play flamingdem Feb 2012 #22
You're welcome. polly7 Feb 2012 #23
good find! a must read stockholmer Feb 2012 #29
Oil. *sigh* Jester Messiah Feb 2012 #30
who are the dictators?? geekd Feb 2012 #32
.... DeSwiss Feb 2012 #33
Update : EU to vote on oil sands pollution dipsydoodle Feb 2012 #35

JohnnyChill

(32 posts)
1. Canada is being run by neocons...
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 09:53 AM
Feb 2012

As a Canadian, I'm embarrassed by my country right now. Our prime minister is a hard right neocon who has a majority government (achieved with only 39% of the vote) and he can do whatever he damn well pleases until 2015.

 

AlbertCat

(17,505 posts)
4. Our prime minister is a hard right neocon
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 10:29 AM
Feb 2012

Don't worry. If Canada's tar sands "are the biggest fossil fuel reserve in the world after Saudi Arabia" the US military will be up there in no time deposing and saving you from your dictator and bringing real democracy to your country.... like we did in Iraq!

Then we can have a Mississippi river of Canadian sludge in a tube cutting across our country to the Gulf where it will be loaded on ships to go everywhere.... and that will somehow make us energy independent.... or something....

Fearless

(18,421 posts)
14. Nah, there already is a neocon in charge...
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 01:02 PM
Feb 2012

They're just waiting for the US to get one too and boom the tar sands start flowing (so to speak). Then everyone loves the neocon saviors for fixing the economies of two countries. Meanwhile, while we have a Democratic president, corporations starve our nation into submission.

 

Snake Alchemist

(3,318 posts)
8. I doubt ANY politician of any stripe is going to stop exploiting the tar sands.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:25 AM
Feb 2012

That is a HUGE cash cow for Canada.

 

sulphurdunn

(6,891 posts)
3. Massive subsidies
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 10:22 AM
Feb 2012

and externalized costs, not to mention bribes paid to political stooges for brown technologies are huge disincentives to investment in alternative energy.

 

banned from Kos

(4,017 posts)
6. Unfortunately if put to a vote in this country
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 10:57 AM
Feb 2012

Cheap fuel or clean air?

I'm afraid the former would easily win.

left on green only

(1,484 posts)
27. Except it's not going towards cheap fuel in this country.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 05:13 PM
Feb 2012

The oil industry would never permit that. It is going to be refined (at the cost of our environment) and then exported by the business interests in this country to markets in other countries so that said business interests in this country can create huge amounts of wealth for themselves on the backs and the health of our starving masses. That is what capitalism is all about. Thank you Michael Moore for trying to point that out to all the single digit IQ's that encompass the majority of our intellect.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
34. Why should it go to cheap fuel in the US, anyway?
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 03:03 AM
Feb 2012

Americans don't have a god-given right to cheap gasoline; the fact is that global demand for oil is at an all-time high of around 89 million barrels a day, and oil is a fungible product; it'll go where there's demand, that's the way a global economy works. And define "cheap"; the break-even on tar sands oil is $75 a barrel. It's only an economically viable resource because of high oil prices.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
36. And you know what makes me seriously sick about all of this
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:50 AM
Feb 2012

Last edited Tue Feb 21, 2012, 11:39 AM - Edit history (1)

(apart from the fact we're ruining our environment getting this shit out of the ground) - a huge part of that global demand - the 'war machine' is the one of the biggest users of energy on earth.

http://www.geopoliticalmonitor.com/us-military-to-cut-oil-consumption-4292/

US Military to Cut Oil Consumption
Jody Ray Bennett - Feb 14, 11

ISN Insights

'The US military - the world's single biggest user of petrol - is intent on reducing its costly oil consumption without having to suffer major cuts to its force. How? The Department of Defense is committed to going "green", making energy a strategic issue for the first time.'



http://www.projectcensored.org/top-stories/articles/2-us-department-of-defense-is-the-worst-polluter-on-the-planet/

'The extensive global operations of the US military (wars, interventions, and secret operations on over one thousand bases around the world and six thousand facilities in the United States) are not counted against US greenhouse gas limits. Sara Flounders writes, “By every measure, the Pentagon is the largest institutional user of petroleum products and energy in general.'

Edit to add quotes.



Just one more reason I wish it would dry up instantly.

 

Spider Jerusalem

(21,786 posts)
37. The US DoD uses less than 2% of the total amount of US energy consumption.
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 11:18 AM
Feb 2012

And the US military uses 360K barrels of oil a day; the US as a whole uses 19 MILLION barrels of oil a day. The US military accounts for about 1.9% of total US oil consumption. As a single entity it's quite a lot; next to the energy use of the US as a whole? It's pretty insignificant.

EC

(12,287 posts)
7. If Canada thinks their product is so safe
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:24 AM
Feb 2012

why don't they just use it there instead of selling it? And why can't a refinery be built in Canada instead of a pipe line down to our coast? You'd think it would be cheaper just to refine and ship from up there. Does Canada have regulations against building refineries or something? Aren't there any shipping areas for tankers up there?

efhmc

(14,723 posts)
12. As a Texan who has seen the havoc refineries wreck on the health of
Reply to EC (Reply #7)
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 12:48 PM
Feb 2012

the people and environment around them, I also wonder why Canada does not have its own refineries.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
18. Canada does have refineries.
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 02:33 PM
Feb 2012

"Most refineries in Western Canada and Ontario were designed to process the light sweet crude oil that is produced in Western Canada. Unlike leading refineries in the U.S., Canadian refineries in these regions have been slower to reconfigure their operations to process lower cost, less desirable crude oils, instead choosing to rely extensively on the abundant, domestically produced, light, sweet crudes. As long as these lighter crudes were available, refining economics were insufficient to warrant new investment in heavy oil conversion capacity.

However, with growing oil sands production and the declining production of conventional light sweet crudes, refineries in Western Canada and Ontario have started to make the investment required to process the increasing supply of heavier crudes. Much of this investment by the large integrated oil companies (companies that are involved in both the production of crude oil and the manufacturing and distribution of petroleum products) is associated with ensuring a market for their growing oil sands production.

In Western Canada and Ontario, almost 50% of the crude oil processed by refiners is conventional light, sweet crude oil and another 25% is high quality synthetic crude oil. Synthetic crude is a light crude oil that is derived by upgrading oil sands. Most of the remaining crude oil processed by these refineries is heavy, sour crude. The crude slate is expected to change significantly in the years ahead as refiners increase their capacity to process heavy crude oil and lower quality synthetic crudes.

Refineries in Atlantic Canada and Quebec are dependent on imported crudes and tend to process a more diverse crude slate than their counterparts in Western Canada and Ontario. These refiners have the capacity to purchase crude oil produced almost anywhere in the world and therefore have incredible flexibility in their crude buying decisions. Approximately 1/3 of crude processed in Eastern Canada and Quebec is conventional, light sweet crude and another 1/3 is medium sulphur, heavy crude oil. The remaining 1/3 is a combination of sour light, sour heavy and very heavy crude oil. The crude slate in Eastern Canada is expected to remain much more static than that in Western Canada and Ontario, as these refiners are not constrained by the quality or volume of domestic crude production."

http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/sources/petroleum-products-market/1519

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_oil_refineries#Canada

 

Sen. Walter Sobchak

(8,692 posts)
28. Canada has been using it and exporting it to the US for more than forty years
Reply to EC (Reply #7)
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 05:25 PM
Feb 2012

Why the poutragers have only made an appearance now is a bit of a mystery.

on point

(2,506 posts)
10. Time for Tariffs and duties imposed on polluting countries
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:42 AM
Feb 2012

Time to impose import tariffs on products from polluting countries, including a 10% penalty tariff to take away the economic incentive to pollute.

Let them produce it, just won't be worth it any longer.

Same for China and their poor environmental record.

Their products are no longer so cheap anymore.

elleng

(130,727 posts)
16. But have to define 'polluting countries.'
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 01:55 PM
Feb 2012

Are they the countries which produce it/harvest it, or the countries which use it, like U.S., China???

on point

(2,506 posts)
26. Lete's start with those who don't sign and adhere to carbon treaties - like the US and China
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 04:57 PM
Feb 2012

Step around the 'but that will hurt our us competively' argument by making it hurt them if they don't

As a direct answer to your question, both.

Impose a carbon tax on the likes of Saudia Arabia as well as consumers like the US (Canada fits both)

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
11. "Canada fears would set a global precedent and derail its ability to exploit its tar sands"
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 11:49 AM
Feb 2012

"Exploit its tar sands?" But...but...I thought it was all going here and that's why we should have it because the oil's all going here!

Have...have...we been lied to?

Gringostan

(127 posts)
15. Privatize the profits, socialize the losses
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 01:27 PM
Feb 2012

These tar sands "sludge" are not intended for the US or Canadian market. The whole purpose of the pipeline is to transport it to the refineries in the Texas Foreign Trade Zones; eliminating the cumbersome need to pay taxes on the refined products. The oil is then exported into the world market and the oil companies make out like bandits. The people, the cities, the counties, and the states will bear the burden of any problems associated with this pipeline. Privatize the profits, socialize the losses - it's the corporate way.

 

JJW

(1,416 posts)
19. In a sane world....
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 02:37 PM
Feb 2012

Developing the tar sands would be an act of environmental terrorism. Notice how only those wanting to protect the environment are labelled Eco-terrorists. A very strange world in which bankers & CEOs are actually pirates and pension funds are for looting by our elite.

polly7

(20,582 posts)
21. I truly despise the tar sands and wish every last drop of that crap would dry up instantly, but
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 02:59 PM
Feb 2012

this is an interesting read.

Published Nov 27 2011 by Resource Insights, Archived Nov 27 2011

Why isn't the Keystone pipeline extension going to eastern Canada?

by Kurt Cobb

http://www.energybulletin.net/stories/2011-11-27/why-isnt-keystone-pipeline-extension-going-eastern-canada



 

stockholmer

(3,751 posts)
29. good find! a must read
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 05:27 PM
Feb 2012

snip

The current Canadian government seems nothing more than a subsidiary of the international oil industry which finds it more profitable to ship Canadian crude oil out of the country and add value to it through refining operations elsewhere. So complete is the control of the industry over the government that a witness before a parliamentary committee who broached the subject of Canadian energy independence was told to cease his testimony, and the hearing was immediately adjourned by the Conservative Party chairman who presided. http://www.canadians.org/media/council/2007/28-May-07.html

What might the advantages of building an east-west pipeline from the tar sands to eastern Canada be? Of course, there would be many Canadian jobs created by the building of the pipeline, and that would also benefit the government through increased tax revenues. Ports in the east might become oil export terminals instead of import terminals. Canada would likely build more domestic refinery capacity, both to supply its own needs and to export refined petroleum products. That would lead to yet more jobs for Canadians and yet more tax revenue for their provincial and federal governments. And, that would mean better financed public services for all Canadians.

Naturally, the large international oil companies that control most of the Canadian oil industry want to avoid the high taxes generally levied throughout Canada. Better to ship oil to the lightly taxed United States, refine it there, and sell it back to the Canadians or whoever offers the highest bid.

There is another way in which the international oil companies have thwarted Canadian energy independence. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) prevents Canada from reserving more its oil production to itself in the event of an emergency. http://www.international.gc.ca/trade-agreements-accords-commerciaux/agr-acc/nafta-alena/texte/chap06.aspx?lang=en&view=d#Article605 Canada is obliged to maintain the same ratio of exports to total production that prevails in any preceding 36-month period. No sudden cessation or reduction is allowed unless it is due to a decline in total production, something not in prospect anytime soon in Canada. (It's worth noting that Mexico, a major oil exporter to the United States and a signatory to NAFTA, refused to sign such an agreement.)

NAFTA also prohibits Canada from charging a lower price to domestic oil consumers than to those purchasing exports. It's common practice for countries that are self-sufficient in oil to give domestic oil consumers a discount from the world price, in essence, to control domestic prices. Back in March of this year when vaulting oil prices pushed up the cost of refined products such as gasoline, residents in some oil-rich countries hardly noticed. Kuwaitis were paying 81 cents per gallon for gasoline. Saudis paid 45 cents. And, Venezuelans were paying just 6 cents. http://www.dailyfinance.com/2011/03/29/gas-prices-world-high-low-country-pain-pump/


snip

-------------------------------------------------------------

 

Jester Messiah

(4,711 posts)
30. Oil. *sigh*
Mon Feb 20, 2012, 06:27 PM
Feb 2012

I hope we see the end of our dependence on it within my lifetime. I'm in my mid-30's, so I give it a 50/50 shot.

 

geekd

(20 posts)
32. who are the dictators??
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 01:16 AM
Feb 2012

why does it always seem europe is always trying to dictate world policy?? they say we always get our nose into others business but what about the EU?? determining which american companies can get together and merge not to mention the rest of the worlds companies.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
35. Update : EU to vote on oil sands pollution
Tue Feb 21, 2012, 10:23 AM
Feb 2012

European Union officials are expected to vote on draft legislation that would label Canadian fuel as more polluting than oil from other parts of the world.

Oil extracted from "oil sands" is regarded by some as energy intensive and environmentally damaging.

The vote comes as native groups are suing the provincial and federal governments for breaching a treaty designed to preserve their way of life.

Officials are set to vote on the matter on 23 February.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-17102027

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