Human Rights Watch says evidence suggests Syrian regime troops behind alleged chemical attack

[DonViejo]

Source: Associated Press

By BARBARA SURK
Associated Press

BEIRUT (AP) -- A leading international human rights group said Tuesday that evidence strongly suggests Syrian government forces fired rockets with warheads containing a nerve agent - most likely sarin - into a Damascus suburb in August, killing hundreds of people.

The report by Human Rights Watch was the latest voice to condemn Syrian President Bashar Assad's government for the alleged chemical attack on the sprawling, rebel-held Ghouta suburb on Aug. 21.

The attack brought the United States to the brink of a military intervention the Syrian civil war, now in its third year.

The New York-based group said it examined documents from the alleged chemical attack on Ghouta, and that the nerve agent used was "most likely, sarin."

:::snip:::

Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_SYRIA?SITE=OKPON&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

[florida08]

1. sorry wrong op

[jberryhill]

2. More paid shills of the MIC, BFEE, PNAC and TPTB

And I may have to pull out more acronyms in the absence of any substantive original thought.

[Turborama]

9. You do realize jberryhill was being sarcastic

Don't you?

[DonViejo]

12. No, I didn't know that but...

I'll take your word for it and delete my comment. Thanks for the heads up!

[JackRiddler]

10. Evidence suggests! Most likely! Sarin!

Bomb'em! Bomb'em now!

[jessie04]

3. I know some people who would disgree with HRW.

Has HRW ALSO become a neo-con , Bloodthirsty MIC tool?

[grahamhgreen]

4. (Washington, DC) - Overwhelming evidence of torture by the Bush administration obliges President

(Washington, DC) - Overwhelming evidence of torture by the Bush administration obliges President Barack Obama to order a criminal investigation into allegations of detainee abuse authorized by former President George W. Bush and other senior officials, Human Rights Watch said in a report released today. The Obama administration has failed to meet US obligations under the Convention against Torture to investigate acts of torture and other ill-treatment of detainees, Human Rights Watch said.

The 107-page report, "Getting Away with Torture: The Bush Administration and Mistreatment of Detainees," presents substantial information warranting criminal investigations of Bush and senior administration officials, including former Vice President Dick Cheney, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, and CIA Director George Tenet, for ordering practices such as "waterboarding," the use of secret CIA prisons, and the transfer of detainees to countries where they were tortured.

"There are solid grounds to investigate Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Tenet for authorizing torture and war crimes," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "President Obama has treated torture as an unfortunate policy choice rather than a crime. His decision to end abusive interrogation practices will remain easily reversible unless the legal prohibition against torture is clearly reestablished."

If the US government does not pursue credible criminal investigations, other countries should prosecute US officials involved in crimes against detainees in accordance with international law, Human Rights Watch said.

Can we do that first before we attack Syria?

[leveymg]

5. There is nothing unique about the crude rockets used and the type of Sarin was found by another

report to differ from the type held in Syrian military stockpiles.

HRW had no access to physical evidence. So, this still doesn't provide a clear, definitive answer who was responsible.

[pampango]

13. "the type of rockets and launchers used ... documented to be only in the possession of, and used by,

Syrian government armed force, Human Rights Watch said.

"This evidence strongly suggests that Syrian government troops launched rockets carrying chemical warheads into the Damascus suburbs that terrible morning.”

The evidence concerning the type of rockets and launchers used in these attacks strongly suggests that these are weapon systems known and documented to be only in the possession of, and used by, Syrian government armed forces, Human Rights Watch said.

Two separate surface-to-surface rocket systems believed to be associated with the delivery of chemical agents were identified. The first type of rocket, found at the site of the Eastern Ghouta attacks, is a 330mm rocket that appears to have a warhead designed to be loaded with and deliver a large payload of liquid chemical agent. The second type, found in the Western Ghouta attack, is a Soviet-produced 140mm rocket that, according to reference guides, has the ability to be armed with one of three possible warheads, including one specifically designed to carry and deliver 2.2 kilograms of Sarin.

Human Rights Watch and arms experts monitoring the use of weapons in Syria have not documented Syrian opposition forces to be in the possession of the 140mm and 330mm rockets used in the attack or their associated launchers.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/09/10/syria-government-likely-culprit-chemical-attack

Human Rights Watch does not agree that "crude rockets" (more like to be used by rebels) were used. Rather HRW concludes that no one has "documented Syrian opposition forces to be in the possession of the 140mm and 330mm rockets used in the attack or their associated launchers."

I agree that "HRW had no access to physical evidence". Human Rights Watch is, of course, not permitted to enter Syria.

For the most part, few are going to care about HRW's conclusions anyway. This may, however, be a heads-up as to what the UN weapons inspectors may determine when they release their report in the near future. If (a big IF) they reach the same conclusion about the "rockets used in the attack", that may be a bigger deal. Of course, determining responsibility for the attack is not part of their mandate. It will be interesting to see how detailed their report is about the specifics of the attack, yet avoiding any conclusion about who was responsible for it.

[leveymg]

14. These are improvised munitions, not standard military rockets. The opposition has produced several

types of similar weapons which are made from cannibalized rocket motors, welded steel tubes, fixed fins, no provision for spin stabilization, and primative warheads that appear to be made out of truck mufflers lacking airborne burst capability that are a feature of the far more sophisticated Russian-made artillery shells already in the Syrian inventory in large numbers.

There is nothing about these things that's beyond the ability of the opposition to manufacture or deploy from the back of light trucks using simple tube launchers. They are not accurate enough, and there's no evidence released that they were used in large enough numbers, to have accounted for the numbers of casualties claimed. For more details, please see, http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/09/02/1235688/-Syrian-gas-rockets-appear-homemade-and-incapable-of-flying-5-10-miles-to-target

[pampango]

15. You may be right but that is not HRW's conclusion. n/t

[leveymg]

16. HRW had to back away from some of its early Syria reports as being too one-sided and

inappropriately sourced without independent confirmation.

This one may be along the same lines.

I've used HRW Country Reports for decades, and find them to be generally very reliable. This may not be their best work.

[pampango]

19. Perhaps they will have to back away from this one. Perhaps not. Time will tell. As I said,

not many will care one way or the other about HRW's conclusions. What will be more interesting and impactful will be the UN's findings.

[leveymg]

21. The response below was intended to be addressed to your post. Oops.

The UN report will have a limited scope, but I hope we learn some more details about the exact

specifications and the numbers of the rockets, and perhaps of the type of Sarin used. That should be useful information even if no judgment can be made by the UN about who is responsible for launching them.

[leveymg]

20. The UN report will have a limited scope, but I hope we learn some more details about the exact

specifications and the numbers of the rockets, and perhaps of the type of Sarin used. That should be useful information even if no judgment can be made by the UN about who is responsible for launching them.

[cynzke]

26. So once...

the rebel factions make a regime change, they happily won't have to use those crude devices. They will have proper weapons and rockets at their disposal.

[NickB79]

29. Such improvisations would be obvious in the debris

types of similar weapons which are made from cannibalized rocket motors, welded steel tubes, fixed fins, no provision for spin stabilization, and primative warheads that appear to be made out of truck mufflers lacking airborne burst capability that are a feature of the far more sophisticated Russian-made artillery shells already in the Syrian inventory in large numbers.

After all, if they have enough debris to recognize the diameter of the rockets used, they should be able to analyze it for signs of the crude construction you stated.

The fact that HRW concluded they were government munitions strongly suggests they found no such evidence.

[leveymg]

30. Here's a photo. They are improvised and not standard military ordinance. HRW found they were gov't

munitions by the same circumstantial deduction that the State Dept report did - they had to have been launched by the gov't because of the unsupported assumption that the opposition doesn't have them. They do.

Here are the three types: A) 8/21 rocket; B) Rebel rocket; and C) Gov't rocket. Compare and contrast

A) Gas rocket of the type used 8/21:





B) Opposition rocket:





C) Gov't rocket: Falaq-2 333mm artillery rocket

?w=690

[Democat]

7. That can't be right

Because DU says Obama is always wrong.

[Polibear]

8. Wow

In all my days of following Du as a silent non member

Du is giving a dicator that murders his own ppl the benefit of the doubt...
even reading the same talking points as the Syrian Government

Just because you don't want U.S. to go to war, don't start becoming allied with Assad


Wake up D.U.

[JackRiddler]

11. Thanks for joining to say that.

It's a total mischaracterization of what's going on, but whatever.

I'm sure you've been following for years and were finally motivated by this to come in and let us know what you think. Thanks.

[leveymg]

17. In all your minutes, you mean. You joined at 8:16am this morning.

Welcome to DU.

[DavidDvorkin]

25. He said following as a non-member

There's no inconsistency.

[SunSeeker]

22. +1

[crim son]

27. If you'd been observing for more than days

you would understand why there is a great amount of scepticism here on DU, and among the American people in general, regarding what has happened in Syria and whose assessment we might trust. Remember Iraq? Yeah, we do too.

[Sunlei]

18. Hope the people working on this can#1, get the chems under International control- today!

No more sales of that stuff & no military strikes. IMO, that's the best, most positive immediate future for everyone.

[proverbialwisdom]

24. General HRW info: HRW Press Release on new board co-chairs, April 2013.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/22/human-rights-watch-names-new-board-co-chairs

Human Rights Watch Names New Board Co-chairs
APRIL 22, 2013

New York – Two leading human rights supporters will co-chair the board of Human Rights Watch beginning in October 2013. Joel Motley, managing director at Public Capital Advisors, and Hassan Elmasry, managing partner at Independent Franchise Partners, will succeed board chair James F. Hoge, Jr.

“I grew up in the civil rights movement, which made me passionate about the cause of human rights,” Motley said. “It’s an honor to play a leadership role in Human Rights Watch’s global effort to end abuses and push for justice and the rule of law.”

A lawyer by training, Motley served as chief of staff in New York City and surrounding counties to the late US Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan before becoming an investment banker in New York. He joined the Human Rights Watch board in 2000. Elmasry, who grew up in the United States but lives in London, came to Human Rights Watch in 2004.

“My family’s experience in America and our strong connections to the Middle East have taught me the value of living in a society where human rights are generally respected, and how difficult it is to live with dignity when they’re not,” Elmasry said. “I’ve seen first-hand the impact Human Rights Watch can have around the world. I’m thrilled to assume a leadership role in support of the exceptional staff pursuing these efforts.”

<>

Personnel matter enormously, IMO. AI was criticized severely for changes in leadership, I am vaguely aware. ( http://www.truthdig.com/eartotheground/item/chris_hedges_resigns_from_human_rights_organization_pen_20130401/ ) As a longtime supporter of both HRW and AI, it's clear caution is prudent.

[Sand Wind]

28. The report :

http://www.hrw.org/sites/default/files/reports/syria_cw0913_web_0.pdf