4 men given death sentences in India gang rape

[Bosonic]

Source: AP

NEW DELHI (AP) — An Indian court has sentenced to death the four men convicted in the December gang rape and murder of a young New Delhi woman, ordering them to the gallows for a brutal attack on a moving bus that left the young woman with such severe internal injuries that she died two weeks later.

The death sentence, handed down Friday, must be confirmed by India's High Court. The men can appeal their case to the Supreme Court, and ask the president for clemency.

The victim's family, along with numerous politicians and government officials, had long called for the men to be executed. The case has been closely followed across India, seen as a reflection on rampant mistreatment of women and the government's inability to deal with crime.

Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4-men-be-sentenced-india-fatal-gang-rape

[LeftofObama]

1. I'm normally against the death penalty,

but in this case I say, "GOOD!"

[leftynyc]

2. Same here

but I wont cry over this one. If it stops even one woman from going through what this one did, it's worth it.

[7962]

11. Now lets see if it takes them 20 yrs to do it like here in the US

[RebelOne]

14. I am not against the death penalty,

especially in atrocious cases such as this. Those creeps deserve death by slow torture just as they tortured that poor girl.

[Kelvin Mace]

17. Then you are in favor of the death penalty

Let's be clear, shall we?

I know that observation may rub you the wrong way, but one either opposes capital punishment, or one doesn't.

[LeftofObama]

22. You're right.

Because I would have favored it in the case of Arial Castro as well and anytime an innocent person is tortured. So yes, I suppose I am in favor of it. I stand corrected.

[Kelvin Mace]

27. Being in favor in "clear cut" cases is easy

Cases where the accused confessed, where the evidence was "overwhelming", where eye-witnesses saw the crime committed.

Until we find out the confession was coerced, the evidence fabricated, and/or the eye-witness testimony completely mistaken.

I have watched a DA and a police detective caught doing shoddy, borderline illegal, police work, claim that a convicted murderer who was later exonerated without question by DNA evidence, "got off on a technicality".

Police and prosecutorial misconduct is rampant in this country. When was the last time you heard of any policeman or DA being charged with attempted murder for falsifying evidence in a capital case where the accused was later found innocent?

I ask you the same question I ask every death penalty supporter:

How many innocent people are you willing to see die in order to satisfy society's visceral need for vengeance?

Round numbers please.

[JI7]

3. i oppose the death penalty but i would rather the under 18 have gotten death

also than 3 years in some reform home thing.

[Recursion]

7. The under-18 attacker was the most brutal, according to the police

It's a hopeful sign; now it's up to Mumbai to try the 4 men who raped half a dozen women in the mills this summer.

[cactusfractal]

4. Well Deserved

"But there aren't enough women!" is not an excuse.

That said, parts of India still selectively abort female offspring in favor of sons, obviously neglecting the fact that it takes both to keep a society going. Some places have but 8 females for every 10 males.

[tarheelsunc]

5. "Some places have but 8 females for every 10 males."

China has the same problem, I think the nationwide ratio is 13 males for every 10 females. While rape certainly exists there, I'm pretty sure they don't have it nearly as bad as India does.

[ellenrr]

6. a very appropriate use of the death penalty

I don't think the death penalty deters. I don't think this will prevent more horrible crimes like the one leading up to this sentence.

but I do think some crimes (Ariel Castro also comes to mind) are so awful, that as human beings we demand a severe response.

[CTyankee]

9. the ultimate deterrence is that once they are executed there is no chance they will ever

rape again.

[Kelvin Mace]

44. Yeah, because the fact that we have executed scores of rapists in the past

has made rape the non-existent crime it is today.

Oh wait...

[CTyankee]

47. I didn't say that. my observation wasn't whether the death penalty is a deterrence to rape

it was a simple statement of fact that THESE rapists will no longer be able to rape again because they will be dead. That is the ultimate deterrence in this case. Sorry I have to explain that statement...

[Kelvin Mace]

18. Again, I ask you the same question

that I ask all supporters of the death penalty:

Given that the criminal justice system is imperfect, if you have a death penalty then it is INEVITABLE and UNAVOIDABLE that innocent people WILL be executed.

With that reality, how many INNOCENT people are you willing to kill in order to satisfy this visceral impulse for vengeance?

Round numbers please.

[RebelOne]

21. I only believe in the death penalty

if guilt is proven beyond all reasonable doubt.

[nomorenomore08]

23. "Reasonable doubt" is often more complicated than that, in practice.

For one thing, it doesn't mean "beyond any possible doubt," because if that were the standard then few people would ever be convicted of crimes. Though in this particular case, there's virtually no doubt that the men are guilty. And I agree that they deserve the harshest possible penalty, for what they did. But that doesn't change my overall opposition to capital punishment.

[Kelvin Mace]

31. What people keep forgetting

is that if you are going to have a death penalty, then you need LOTS of safeguards to insure that no innocent person is executed (unless you just don't care).

Safeguards make for VERY expensive trials, and still don't protect the innocent.

Also there is the question of whether we intend to simply punish people, or rehabilitate them. Punishing is very easy, execute or drop in dark box and forget them. Of course, this brings us back to punishing the innocent.

Rehabilitation means treating people humanely, even "bad" people, and trying to render them fit to return to society.

Rehabilitation is hard, which is why we don't do it.

[nomorenomore08]

32. Exactly. And while some people - like the 4 men in the OP - are arguably beyond redemption

they should be looked at as the exception rather than the rule.

[Kelvin Mace]

34. I would prefer no exception

Once we start making exceptions, innocent people are going to die.

[nomorenomore08]

35. I didn't say they should be executed. I don't favor the DP in any case, even this one.

And ideally, we should be approaching the topic of rehabilitation with the assumption that each prisoner can be rehabilitated. Even if some, ultimately, are incapable.

[Kelvin Mace]

41. Sorry, not meant as disagreement

just stating my view.

I think you and I are on the same page here.

[Kelvin Mace]

29. Define "reasonable doubt"

There are hundreds of death row inmates who have been exonerated by DNA evidence over the last 20 years. All were convicted based on evidence purportedly beyond a "reasonable doubt".

If you confess to a crime, does that not prove your guilt beyond a "reasonable doubt"? Yet many confessions turned out to be false, obtained via coercion or deceit.

I quote Gandalf on this issue:

“Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.”

[RebelOne]

30. According to the Legal Dictionary:

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Reasonable+Doubt

[Kelvin Mace]

33. And as I point out

Using that definition has resulted in hundreds of wrongful convictions in death penalty cases, THAT WE KNOW OF.

What about all the people who were executed before DNA started to help? What about people who cannot get the state to cooperate in DNA, or other exonerative processes?

There have been 1,344 executions in the U.S. since 1976. There have been 311 exonerations of murder convictions due to DNA evidence since 1989.

That is not a very reassuring ratio.

But let us assume for moment that only ONE person of the 1,344 executed was innocent, but couldn't prove it. Was it okay to kill that person, just to exact vengeance on the other 1,343?

[RebelOne]

36. These four scum were guilty beyond any reasonable doubt.

You cannot argue that they were not.

[Kelvin Mace]

42. I am not arguing that point

I am arguing that if you have a death penalty, then eventually you WILL execute the innocent, who will be, absolutely guilty beyond and reasonable doubt, until they are not, due to circumstance, misconduct, expediency or malevolence.

This is a simple fact.

I know it "feels" good when bad people die. But I would hope we would strive to be better than that.

Dick Cheney is guilty "beyond any reasonable doubt", and guilty of far worse crimes. Yet these men die, and he lives. Worse, he lives at taxpayer's expense.

If we cannot impose the death penalty on the truly deserving while protecting the genuinely innocent we have no business having a death penalty.

It is very sad to hear people say, "I oppose the death penalty, except..." If you cannot put a period after "penalty", then you support the death penalty and all of the injustice it entails.

[ellenrr]

8. in last 20 years death penalty actually carried out twice.

one was a survivor of the Mubai bombing

bec. the Mubai bombing is considered terrorism

I consider rape terrorism too. Whether in Central Park or New Delhi it is meant to say to women - you have no right to be anywhere. Where ever, whenever, you can be attacked and killed. It creates fear among all women, so should be considered a terroristic act.

[niyad]

10. you are absolutely correct. and waiting for the screaming in 3. . 2. . .1. . .

[7962]

12. Thats right. The ultimate double standard. Men NEVER have to worry about rape

even though it HAS happened to men, I'm sure the number of cases is very small.

[ellenrr]

13. of course it happens to men, in prison it happens every day,

and elsewhere, it happens.

Did something in my post make you think that I think rape only happens to women?
Or that I don't think it is exactly as abhorent no matter the gender of the victim?

My point which perhaps you missed, so I'll repeat it:
rape is an agent of terror against women. Rape of one woman has repercussions beyond that one woman, bec. the intent is to send the message: women do not have the right to move about freely.

Since there is no non-patriarchal nation on earth, rape of a man, while horrible - Obviously - DUH - is not a terroristic act.

Now if that's not clear, then...I'm done explaining. sometimes it helps if you read posts carefully.

[Bay Boy]

26. Do you really feel that the intent of rape is

to send the message "women do not have the right to move about freely"?

[ellenrr]

49. yes, just like when folks lynched Black people the message was

that black people do not have the right to exist.
It's not the "message" of the individuals doing the deed, it is the over-all message.
I don't mean that the individuals are thinking this.
Some deeds are about more than the individual victims. That is why we have hate-crime legislation. Crimes that target people based on their race, sexual orientation, etc are considered worthy of extra punishment bec. they effect not just the one victim, but the entire group.

[7962]

46. Calm down, I said "Thats right", which usually means "I agree"

Although since you brought it up, prison rape could very well be considered the same type of terrorism. You cant move about without fear of being attacked.

[ellenrr]

50. what makes you think I'm not calm? replying - and expanding on my thot - does not mean

I am not calm.

[orpupilofnature57]

52. What are you " Calma police " ??????

[AllyCat]

15. Shouldn't the headline read "gang rape and murder"?

cause these freaks were doubly complicit in their assault of this poor woman.

[Sunlei]

16. a heck of a deterrent, I bet it helps their society get a bit safer fast.

[lunatica]

19. I'm against the death penalty

But in this case it might actually serve as a deterrent. I doubt it though. Criminals and rapists always think they'll never get caught.

[orpupilofnature57]

51. Me too, Castration, if they use a broom handle cut their arms off

rape is worse than murder for the victim .

[IronLionZion]

20. I sure hope this is a deterrent and a catalyst for improved public safety

I'm also normally against the death penalty except for extreme cases like this.

I doubt these guys would last long in prison either. While there is the image promoted in the western media that Indians are rapists, there's also a lot of white knight-ism where men would happily beat to death a man who attacks a woman or a child. Search for the youtube video "how can she slap!" and watch a whole tv studo audience of men beat up one dude who slapped a woman who slapped him first for a cheeky comment. There are many more instances just like that. Most Indian fathers, brothers, and friends would beat up a dude who grabs a girl's ass for example. Men can stop rape.

Yes, "nice guy" white knights are patriarchy, but Indian feminists have much bigger fish to fry.

[nomorenomore08]

24. I'm opposed to the death penalty. Even in a case as heinous as this one. Life in prison

would be more than appropriate, though. And I certainly won't shed a tear for any of these shitbags.

[alphafemale]

25. Anyone know what the death penalty method is in India?

Hanging I'd guess?

[NutmegYankee]

28. ... ordering them to the "gallows" for a brutal attack

Hanging.

[RebelOne]

37. Hanging is too good for them for their heinous crime.

They should be tortured just like they tortured that girl.

[NutmegYankee]

38. Generally not the act of a civilized country.

Ever since the 18th century bloodshed of the French Revolution, capital punishment has been the termination of life. Prior to that, it was torture followed by death.

[RebelOne]

39. I am an atheist, but I do believe in the biblical "an eye for an eye." n/t

[NutmegYankee]

48. And Christians don't.

The original phrase, seen in Exodus, was rejected by Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount. Those who do refer to it to justify their views are the type of Christians I often comment "Find that God hates the same people they hate".

[uppityperson]

43. +1, I agree, wish for retribution? And yup.

[Kelvin Mace]

45. As pointed out above

as soon as you add a qualifier to your opposition to the death penalty, you no longer oppose it, you favor it, even if "just in certain circumstances".

So again, the question I ask death penalty supporters, no matter how reluctant:

"How many innocent people are you willing to see murdered by the state, before you will oppose the death penalty without exception.

One? Ten? One hundred.

A specific number please.

Since 1976, there have been 1,344 execution in the U.S.

Since 1989 DNA has exonerated 313 people who would have been executed except for the science. Each one of them had endured trials which proved their guilt beyond reasonable doubt, and numerous appeals thereafter.

Without DNA science we would have executed 1,657 people, about 1 in 5 who would have been innocent.

Can't say those are morally defensible odds.