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Turborama

(22,109 posts)
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 02:33 PM Sep 2013

'War crime': U.N. finds sarin used in Syria chemical weapons attack

Source: CNN

By Josh Levs and Holly Yan

September 16, 2013 -- Updated 17:42 GMT

STORY HIGHLIGHTS
NEW: It's the biggest confirmed use of chemical arms since in Iraq in 1988, Ban Ki-moon says
NEW: President Obama says the U.S.-Russia could deal could end the threat

(CNN) -- The United Nations team investigating a chemical weapons attack last month in Syria has found that sarin was used.

"In particular, the environmental, chemical and medical samples we have collected provide clear and convincing evidence that surface-to-surface rockets containing the nerve agent sarin were used in Ein Tarma, Moadamiyah and Amalaka in the Ghouta area of Damascus," a 38-page report says.

Chemical weapons "were used on a relatively large scale," U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon said in a briefing to the U.N. Security Council.

It's "the most significant confirmed use of chemical weapons against civilians since Saddam Hussein used them in Halabja in 1988," Ban said.

The U.N. mission "adhered to the most stringent protocols available for such an investigation, including to ensure the chain of custody for all samples," Ban added.

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/09/16/politics/syria-civil-war/



New York, 16 September 2013 - Secretary-General's remarks to the Security Council on the report of the United Nations Missions to Investigate Allegations of the Use of Chemical Weapons on the incident that occurred on 21 August 2013 in the Ghouta area of Damascus:

=snip=

Let me turn now to the handling and analysis of the materials that were collected by the Mission.

The samples were sent for analysis to four laboratories designated by the OPCW. The Mission’s factual findings are as follows.

(a)The environmental and biomedical samples demonstrate the widespread nature of the attacks. Eighty-five per cent of the blood samples tested positive for sarin. Biomedical samples were taken from 34 of the 36 patients selected by the Mission who had signs of poisoning. Almost all tested positive for exposure to sarin.

(b)These results were corroborated by the clinical assessments, which documented symptoms and signs consistent with nerve agent exposure. A number of affected patients were diagnosed with intoxification by an organophosphorous compound, and clearly showed symptoms associated with sarin, including loss of consciousness, shortness of breath, blurred vision, eye inflammation, vomiting and seizures.

(c)A majority of the environmental samples confirmed the use of sarin. The samples were taken from impact sites and surrounding areas – locations where survivors were also found to have been affected by sarin.

(d)The team was also able to examine impacted and exploded surface-to-surface rockets that are capable of carrying a chemical payload. These were carefully measured, photographed and sampled. A majority of the rockets or rocket fragments recovered were found to be carrying sarin.

On the basis of its analysis, the Mission concluded that it – and I quote – “collected clear and convincing evidence that surface-to-surface rockets containing the nerve agent sarin were used in the Ein Tarma, Moadamiyah and Zalmalka in the Ghouta area of Damascus.”

=snip=

The UN Commission of Inquiry has reported that Government and pro-government forces have committed murder, enforced disappearances, extrajudicial executions, rape and torture against civilians. It has also reported that anti-government armed groups have committed murder, executions, torture and hostage-taking. There has been indiscriminate shelling of civilian neighbourhoods by all sides. Yet arms continue to flow to the country and the region.

As action on chemical weapons moves ahead, the international community, including the United Nations, should also not be blind to the war crimes and crimes against humanity being committed with conventional weapons. There must be no impunity for these violations, either.

The humanitarian situation is desperate. Food supplies are dangerously low in some places. We lack access to many people in need. People are living under siege. Families face intolerable choices between the risk of remaining in place and the risk of taking flight. Communities that once lived in relative harmony are now torn with sectarian tension. One third of the country’s people have fled their homes -- the largest flows of refugees and internally displaced persons in many years, causing instability across the region.

We need to do everything we can to bring the parties to the negotiating table. This is the only path to a durable solution. I stand ready to convene the International Conference on Syria in Geneva as soon as possible. I look forward to meeting with Foreign Minister Lavrov and Secretary Kerry on 28 September. I hope we will be able to set a date for the conference at that time. I also hope that this Council will provide full support to the efforts of Joint Special Representative Lakhdar Brahimi to prepare the ground for its launch.

This is the most significant confirmed use of chemical weapons against civilians since Saddam Hussein used them in Halabja in 1988. The international community has pledged to prevent any such horror from recurring, yet it has happened again.

This is a matter that truly affects international peace and security. After two-and-a-half years of tragedy, now is the moment for the Security Council to uphold its political and moral responsibilities and demonstrate the political will to move forward in a decisive manner.

My hope is that this incident will serve as a wake-up call for more determined efforts to resolve the conflict and end the unbearable suffering of the Syrian people.

Thank you, Mr. President.

His full statement: http://www.un.org/sg/statements/index.asp?nid=7083


The report can be downloaded from the UN here (it's a badly scanned copy & isn't easy to read): http://www.un.org/disarmament/content/slideshow/Secretary_General_Report_of_CW_Investigation.pdf

Or an easier to read version is here (hat tip to The Magistrate): http://www.scribd.com/doc/168606795/U-N-Report-on-Chemical-Attack-in-Syria
76 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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'War crime': U.N. finds sarin used in Syria chemical weapons attack (Original Post) Turborama Sep 2013 OP
350 liters of high quality Sarin. joshcryer Sep 2013 #1
Very interesting site Turborama Sep 2013 #2
That amount appears about right. The rest of your assertions are not well established. leveymg Sep 2013 #35
Ah, yes, the 140mm is Russia, the 330mm is unlikely to be rebels. joshcryer Sep 2013 #56
Note a couple things: the report makes no mention of sarin quality - that's a claim made by the UK leveymg Sep 2013 #57
Moses' latest conclusion is that it's not an opposition controlled weapon. joshcryer Sep 2013 #58
Moses isn't Moses, and he's changed his tune since June. He's not really an expert, and the experts leveymg Sep 2013 #59
I think Moses was winging it. joshcryer Sep 2013 #61
I think he still is. He's just playing to a wider audience now, leveymg Sep 2013 #66
even I noticed the rockets shot from LG. trailers had 'canister' tops ~ the size of 30 gal aquarium Sunlei Sep 2013 #70
A typical mid-size delivery truck is fine for transporting 3-4 of these things. leveymg Sep 2013 #72
you have very good points. I hope Assad has control over what he is supposed to turn over. Sunlei Sep 2013 #73
Assad clearly does not have a monopoly on either these rockets or poisonous chemicals leveymg Sep 2013 #74
that's a pick-up truck. The huge rocket launchers looked like semi trailers pulled by large trucks. Sunlei Sep 2013 #75
The al-Qaeda PU truck rockets are about 4 feet long. The ones used on 8/21 are 6'6" leveymg Sep 2013 #76
that is an excellent report and this link inside was also well detailed. Sunlei Sep 2013 #49
and now for the 'big surprise' azurnoir Sep 2013 #3
It falls under Chapter 6 with a "further measures" recommendation for Chapter 7. joshcryer Sep 2013 #5
hmmm someone better tell Russia that they have "no choice" azurnoir Sep 2013 #6
Russia is commenting on a resolution it hasn't read. joshcryer Sep 2013 #9
if you actually read the article you'll find that azurnoir Sep 2013 #15
Russia was commenting on a US statement. joshcryer Sep 2013 #55
are you confused? azurnoir Sep 2013 #60
Right, but Russia doesn't know what the US has written. joshcryer Sep 2013 #62
If it were to go that far Russia would veto any military intervention per azurnoir Sep 2013 #63
The US isn't going to include military intervention. joshcryer Sep 2013 #65
Most likely? Assad will hand the weapons over to Russia still because as long as that happens cstanleytech Sep 2013 #7
I would think the question would then be azurnoir Sep 2013 #14
I think the US would. Its not a perfect solution as those who used them wont be put on trial cstanleytech Sep 2013 #54
Kerry himself has says that there is no trigger karynnj Sep 2013 #52
Kerry says now did he get that from Kissinger or Reagan the former he takes advice from azurnoir Sep 2013 #53
I can't parse your confused subject line karynnj Sep 2013 #64
So what - USA promoted chemical weapons before, then got Saddam hung for it. ConcernedCanuk Sep 2013 #4
Are you seriously saying "So what" (sic) Turborama Sep 2013 #8
Not at all . . . ConcernedCanuk Sep 2013 #26
"So what" Daniel537 Sep 2013 #10
How you doing arguing with the strawmen? NoOneMan Sep 2013 #28
I have zero tolerance for fools whose first response to a report of mass murder is Daniel537 Sep 2013 #33
This report is a political justification for war in today's political environment NoOneMan Sep 2013 #37
Try to find one of my posts saying mass murder is ok ConcernedCanuk Sep 2013 #31
Do you care about crimes against humanity geek tragedy Sep 2013 #11
You are not paying attention ConcernedCanuk Sep 2013 #19
Have you ever answered 'so what' to a report geek tragedy Sep 2013 #22
No - not that I recall. ConcernedCanuk Sep 2013 #25
If one was being use to justify bombings and attrocities against the American people I would. NoOneMan Sep 2013 #29
I find the whole 'moral imperative' stance hypocritical....otoh snappyturtle Sep 2013 #16
" it was a heinous act that occurred in Syria." - yes it certainly was ConcernedCanuk Sep 2013 #17
Trust me I agree with you as unpopular as that obviously is. snappyturtle Sep 2013 #18
Agreeing with me is not as unpopular as one might think. ConcernedCanuk Sep 2013 #24
I don't think some people see this as "another" war NoOneMan Sep 2013 #32
Here Is A Good Copy Of The Whole Report, Sir The Magistrate Sep 2013 #12
Thanks a lot! Turborama Sep 2013 #13
This should encourage Assad to quit what using military tactics instead of political ones in Syria. freshwest Sep 2013 #21
Thank you the report clarified some points n/t azurnoir Sep 2013 #20
Thank you for the link Hydra Sep 2013 #51
Seems that some Crow Eating is in order! nt Cryptoad Sep 2013 #23
I don't think any crow should be eaten. John2 Sep 2013 #27
So you reject the report as well as rejecting the geek tragedy Sep 2013 #30
Here is what I think about Syria giving up their chemical weapons.... NoOneMan Sep 2013 #34
Huh? Syria's regime has massacred tens of thousands geek tragedy Sep 2013 #36
Not as cool ones as the US uses though NoOneMan Sep 2013 #38
The UN is taking their illegal chemical arms. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #39
I just think they should be able to trade them in. Really, I have doubts of their cost efficiency NoOneMan Sep 2013 #41
That is nonsensical gibberish. geek tragedy Sep 2013 #44
This entire arbitrary debate about what is a moral way to massacre people is NoOneMan Sep 2013 #45
No, rational or decent human being John2 Sep 2013 #46
You're on record as saying the Assad regime geek tragedy Sep 2013 #47
Do you feel the same about Iran? maddezmom Sep 2013 #68
Oh, John2 Sep 2013 #43
Most, but I'm sure you will say otherwise. nt geek tragedy Sep 2013 #48
Post removed Post removed Sep 2013 #40
So, you think Obama is as scary as the Nazis were geek tragedy Sep 2013 #42
I agree that it could be a huge mistake. arewenotdemo Sep 2013 #50
What's Ban Ki Moon coming from South Korea got to do with anything? n/t Turborama Sep 2013 #67
BTW, the head of the UN's investigative mission is not a Sunni Muslim Turborama Sep 2013 #69
The US should consider providing more food and medical aid to Syria through the UN. David__77 Sep 2013 #71

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
35. That amount appears about right. The rest of your assertions are not well established.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:39 PM
Sep 2013

Last edited Mon Sep 16, 2013, 06:17 PM - Edit history (3)

The larger 333mm improvised munitions that killed the vast majority of people in eastern Damascus are cannibalized rocket motors with no guidance or stabilization and what appear to be truck mufflers bolted on top. They are not significantly more sophisticated than the improvised rocket assisted munitions (IRAMs) that various opposition groups and al-Qaeda has been observed using in several countries in the region.

Where did you get this? "Also, they were made in Russia." The larger 330mm IRAMs were most definitely not made in Russia. They are locally or regionally manufactured in workshops, not Russian munitions. The smaller, 140 mm artillery rockets are standard Soviet era munitions and the Syrian military has them in large numbers - but, they only carry about 2 liters of Sarin and only accounted for about one-in-seven of the fatalities, according to the HRW report.

The fact that two different types of munitions -- one improvised, the other standard military -- were used on different areas with very different effects is potentially significant. It's been established to a reasonable certitude that the smaller, more accurate, but less deadly military rockets were launched from either the military airfield or one of several nearby bases in the southwestern part of town near the suburb of Moadamiyeh that suffered relatively light casualties (about 100 killed.)

We now know based upon the UN report that larger improvised rockets, the ones that had a capacity of approximately 50 liters each, that killed most were launched from a location almost due west from Zamalka/Ein Tarma. Since these IRAMs have very short range, it is now clear that they were launched from the adjacent area known as Jobar, which is a contested area - not "regime-controlled territory" as the State Dept. report initially claimed. The UN study also contradicts the initial published reports that quoted opposition witnesses that the eastern launch site was likely the October Military Museum grounds. That is located about 2 kilometers to the north of the flight path determined for the larger rockets. So, we still don't know who launched the improvised rockets, and it appears that there is yet another party that has been using virtually identical rockets since that group reportedly introduced them to Syria late last year - Hezbollah, three of the members of which reportedly succumbed to Sarin gas exposure in Jobar that night.

Finally, the UN report says nothing about the quality or origins of the Sarin used, merely that the samples taken showed traces of Serin. While there variation is not great, about 10-20%, the percentage of victims who tested positive for Sarin poisoning was somewhat less for those from the eastern area where the improvised munitions were used. It is not known what accounts for this variation, but we might speculate that potentially this could be due to a Sarin of a different concentration or origin being used. If that were found to be the case, it would be further indication that potentially a militia or other third-party group was responsible for rocketing that area.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
56. Ah, yes, the 140mm is Russia, the 330mm is unlikely to be rebels.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 08:42 PM
Sep 2013

Moses points out their sophisticated nature, beyond what one has seen of rebel improvisation. I do not think the 330mm device qualifies as IRAM.

The quality of the sarin was at the press briefing, it was seen as much higher quality than that used in the Japan Tokyo sarin attack.

I do not think it is established that the 330mm variant is "improvised." I think it is a factory built dispersal method far beyond the sophistication of the rebels.

Likewise I do not think that Jawbar was "contested" since the likely origin of the rockets was Syria controlled Mount Qasioun, which is heavily fortified and would make a perfect base of operations for this attack. Interestingly Mount Qasioun was the target of Israel's strikes earlier this year (back in May). THe UN's trajectory assessment (pasge 23) indicates, even, that being the case, since Mount Qasioun is literally where the trajectories converge.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
57. Note a couple things: the report makes no mention of sarin quality - that's a claim made by the UK
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 08:56 PM
Sep 2013

Last edited Mon Sep 16, 2013, 10:27 PM - Edit history (1)

Ambassador at the presser. Also, until this gets clarified, I wouldn't assume the same type of sarin was used. The results show about a 20% lower positive results for exposure among the population that was targeted by the improvised devices in the east, even though 25 times as much Sarin was released there using about the same number of rockets in each attack.

If you go back and read Brown Moses for June (I linked it in the last post a few days ago) you will see that thee 333mm device is based upon an IRAM that that source claims was introduced into Syria late last year by Hezbollah, and there was reference to that group using a fuel-air version to knock down buildings in rebel-held neighborhoods. It's referenced as a "vacuum bomb" elsewhere. The devices do look like they were short-run workshop built with standardized paint and semi-standardized markings of various types, some hand lettering and some stenciling. But, the rockets are pretty crude, if effective when they work. The dispersal method is nothing but an impact fuse or a timer taken from a mortar round attached to a stick of plastic explosive. Not sophisticated at all.

These things can't fly more than a few miles. The 105 degree azimuth makes the launch site almost due west (slightly northwest of Ein Tarma), anyway. That's Jobar District, a contested area (according to the Inst, for Study of War, anyway) where a lot of interesting things (involving opposition chemical caches and Hezbollah militia being exposed) have been happening for several months. http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Lebanon-News/2013/Aug-26/228701-hezbollah-fighters-exposed-to-chemical-agents-in-syria-source.ashx#axzz2f3fgTuWD Look on a map. If you disagree with any of that, please explain, UN Report, p. 23:

Impact Site Number 4
The munition related to this impact site by observed and measured characteristics indicatively matches a 330 mm caliber, artillery rocket. The projectile, in the last stage of its trajectory, hit the surface in an area of earthy, relatively soft, ground where the shaft/engine of the projectile remained dug in, undisturbed until investigated.
The said shaft/engine, presenting no form of lateral bending, pointed precisely in a bearing of 285 degrees that, again , represent a reverse azimuth to the trajectory followed by the rocket during its flight. It can be, thus, concluded that the original azimuth of the rocket trajectory had an azimuth of 105 degrees,in an East/South east trajectory.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
58. Moses' latest conclusion is that it's not an opposition controlled weapon.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:02 PM
Sep 2013

He's also said that the rockets are sophisticated, not crude.

As I've said before, some people have claimed the UMLACA could be a DIY munition manufactured by the opposition, but by examining the construction of both the Hell Cannon and the UMLACA I think it's clear there's a very significant difference in the quality and complexity of construction.


http://brown-moses.blogspot.com/2013/09/who-was-responsible-for-august-21st.html

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
59. Moses isn't Moses, and he's changed his tune since June. He's not really an expert, and the experts
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:08 PM
Sep 2013

all seem to have made serious mistakes, as we have found out. For instance, we didn't know until the NYT admitted on Sept. 4 that earlier estimates of warhead capicity were off by a lot -- these things don't just carry 2 kgs of sarin, as we were told, they carry like 50.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
61. I think Moses was winging it.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:18 PM
Sep 2013

But as he got more and more data he started figuring things out with a bigger degree of certainty. Just go look at his first comments about the 330 mm munition. He was clearly rambling and inconclusive. The UN confirmed that the munition had sarin though.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
66. I think he still is. He's just playing to a wider audience now,
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:40 PM
Sep 2013

Last edited Tue Sep 17, 2013, 08:02 AM - Edit history (1)

and I think he's embellishing. I have my own eyes and fabrication experience, and can tell by looking at those things that they aren't exactly defense plant products, not even Russian or Chinese or Turkish or Iranian. They were made in a small metal fabrication shop with only medium sophisticated tooling and equipment. The not bad welds and clean stamping and once-over smoothing of edges me tell that there's some skill, but not the very best in Syria.

The big shiny red Mercedes transporter that brought the test rockets to the late Spring roll-out at the military air field looked like it was the best one left in Syria, though, and those prototypes tended to by the man in the white shirt and his helpers in blue and red shirts were probably the best left in Syria, if indeed they aren't a sales team from a neighboring state.

Nothing that couldn't be easily reproduced in very short order, if one wanted to do a little frame-up job. Same thing for 45 liters of Sarin, which is after all only concentrated insecticide.

I'm just rambling . . .

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
70. even I noticed the rockets shot from LG. trailers had 'canister' tops ~ the size of 30 gal aquarium
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 12:57 PM
Sep 2013

part of that common sense the President? mentioned.

I don't think the rebels have the means to hide large trucks like that in any city areas they are 'kettled in' by the Assad gov. Or the money to buy semi trucks from Russia/iran? to pull those huge rocket launchers around.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
72. A typical mid-size delivery truck is fine for transporting 3-4 of these things.
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 02:04 PM
Sep 2013

Last edited Tue Sep 17, 2013, 02:49 PM - Edit history (1)

There were only 8 of the 333mm rockets fired the night of 8/21, that anyone can find evidence of.

They're solid fueled rockets so they only require to be fused and hooked up to a power source, and they're ready to go in a few minutes. The launcher is literally nothing but a reusable tube mounted on a rotating dias with a hydraulic jack for elevation and 2 carpenter bubble levels to determine aim. Nothing complex or expensive about any of this that any half-way decently funded terrorist group couldn't build or obtain on the black market.

Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
73. you have very good points. I hope Assad has control over what he is supposed to turn over.
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 02:08 PM
Sep 2013

It would be horrible if/when somewhere in the world there is another mass killing with that gas.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
74. Assad clearly does not have a monopoly on either these rockets or poisonous chemicals
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 02:17 PM
Sep 2013

al-Qaeda multiple IRAM launcher:



Sarin gas is nothing but highly concentrated insecticide, and it's just one type of chemical weapon available inside Syria. Note that these improvised rockets were launched from Jobar district, a contest area, where these chemicals and weapons materials were found:

http://nodisinfo.com/Home/terrorist-chemical-lab-uncovered-syrias-jobar-suburb-damascus/



- MORE VIDEOS AT http://nodisinfo.com/Home/terrorist-chemical-lab-uncovered-syrias-jobar-suburb-damascus/


Sunlei

(22,651 posts)
75. that's a pick-up truck. The huge rocket launchers looked like semi trailers pulled by large trucks.
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 02:34 PM
Sep 2013

I don't think we should arm the 'McCains' rebels either with anything except humanitarian aid.

First things first, Assad has to turn over the stuff. It is worrying he has moved family and friends to Geneva, anything could happen now.

I hope we stick with the UN diplomacy and not do what the cheneys of the world want.

leveymg

(36,418 posts)
76. The al-Qaeda PU truck rockets are about 4 feet long. The ones used on 8/21 are 6'6"
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 03:13 PM
Sep 2013

Last edited Tue Sep 17, 2013, 04:15 PM - Edit history (1)

The outside diameter is proportionately larger, as are the launching tubes. A small truck will do just fine.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
3. and now for the 'big surprise'
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:13 PM
Sep 2013
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov on Monday accused U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry "and his Western allies" of misunderstanding the deal, according to Russia's state-run Itar-Tass news agency.

The deal does not say the U.N. resolution will be under Chapter VII of the U.N. charter, Lavrov said.

Chapter VII potentially authorizes the use of force.

Lavrov said comments by Kerry "show unwillingness to read the document" that Russia and the United States agreed to.

Kerry said Monday that a U.N. resolution will need to include the possibility of force. "If the Assad regime believes that this is not enforceable, then they will play games," he said.

"Should diplomacy fail, the military option is still on the table," he told reporters.


so what happens now?

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
5. It falls under Chapter 6 with a "further measures" recommendation for Chapter 7.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:17 PM
Sep 2013

It will not be Chapter 7 initially, but Chapter 7 will be mentioned.

The US has already said that it is willing to go without a strict Chapter 7 authorization or even automatic triggers.

Russia has no choice but to agree at this point.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
6. hmmm someone better tell Russia that they have "no choice"
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:21 PM
Sep 2013

because it sounds to me like Russia thinks it does

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
9. Russia is commenting on a resolution it hasn't read.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:24 PM
Sep 2013

Specifically the discussion at the post-release briefing where Chapter 7 was mentioned. When questioned about it the UN Deputy General basically said, "Now is not the time to discuss that."

The US isn't going to require Chapter 7 so Russia is making the wrong assumptions.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
15. if you actually read the article you'll find that
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:51 PM
Sep 2013

Russia is saying the US hasn't read it not the reverse as you claim

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
62. Right, but Russia doesn't know what the US has written.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:20 PM
Sep 2013

All Russia knows is the statement by US people at the press conference.

Which suggested a minimal non-triggered use of Chapter 7.

Russia has no choice but to accept a non-military resolution.

joshcryer

(62,265 posts)
65. The US isn't going to include military intervention.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:24 PM
Sep 2013

Now we're back to the original comment of this thread.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
7. Most likely? Assad will hand the weapons over to Russia still because as long as that happens
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:21 PM
Sep 2013

the US is unlikely to gain enough support to use any military force unless another such attack happens.
If another attack happens though I wouldnt give you 2 pennies for Assads chances at escaping.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
14. I would think the question would then be
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:50 PM
Sep 2013

will the US be willing to accept that, Syria handing it's CW over to Russia, everything I've read says "international community" without of course, specifying exactly what that means.

cstanleytech

(26,080 posts)
54. I think the US would. Its not a perfect solution as those who used them wont be put on trial
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 07:00 PM
Sep 2013

for war crimes like they should be but atleast it might prevent their further usage over there or at the very least discourage it.

karynnj

(59,475 posts)
52. Kerry himself has says that there is no trigger
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 06:40 PM
Sep 2013

that non compliance will return the issue to the UN - and then consequences will be determined under chapter 7. He also made the point that there are possible non military consequences.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
53. Kerry says now did he get that from Kissinger or Reagan the former he takes advice from
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 06:48 PM
Sep 2013

the latter he invokes,r chapter 7 allows for both economic boycotts or blockades and military force

karynnj

(59,475 posts)
64. I can't parse your confused subject line
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 09:23 PM
Sep 2013

You are entirely right that Chapter 7 allows many different recourses. Non compliance or actual new use of weapons would cause a return to the UN - where the appropriate response would be debated. Note that Russia in the past blocked economic sanctions.

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
4. So what - USA promoted chemical weapons before, then got Saddam hung for it.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:15 PM
Sep 2013

.
.
.

USA is for WAR, not peace - has been for centuries.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Iraq_during_the_Iran%E2%80%93Iraq_war

/snip/

The CIA had already warned that Iraq was using chemical weapons almost daily. But Mr Rumsfeld, at the time a successful executive in the pharmaceutical industry, still made it possible for Saddam to buy supplies from American firms.


They included viruses such as anthrax and bubonic plague, according to the Washington Post.

/snip/

The extraordinary details have come to light because thousands of State Department documents dealing with the 1980-88 Iran-Iraq war have just been declassified and released under the Freedom of Information Act.

According to retired Army Colonel W. Patrick Lang, senior defense intelligence officer for the United States Defense Intelligence Agency at the time, "the use of gas on the battlefield by the Iraqis was not a matter of deep strategic concern" to Reagan and his aides, because they "were desperate to make sure that Iraq did not lose."[21]

Lang disclosed that more than 60 officers of the Defense Intelligence Agency were secretly providing detailed information on Iranian deployments.

He cautioned that the DIA "would have never accepted the use of chemical weapons against civilians, but the use against military objectives was seen as inevitable in the Iraqi struggle for survival."

Despite this claim, the Reagan administration did not stop aiding Iraq after receiving reports affirming the use of poison gas on Kurdish civilians.[22][23]


Joost R. Hiltermann says that when the Iraqi military turned its chemical weapons on the Kurds during the war, killing approximately 5,000 people in the town of Halabja and injuring thousands more, the Reagan administration actually sought to obscure Iraqi leadership culpability by suggesting, inaccurately, that the Iranians may have carried out the attack.[24]

________________________________________________________________________________________________

USA's so called "Moral Imperative" is a crock of shit imo.

CC

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
8. Are you seriously saying "So what" (sic)
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:22 PM
Sep 2013

And using history to try and diminish the indiscriminate use of sarin gas to commit mass murder of over a thousand civilians (including hundreds of children) in one night last month?

 

Daniel537

(1,560 posts)
10. "So what"
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:31 PM
Sep 2013

Nihilism at its finest. Now mass murder is apparently a-ok, as long as its done by some goon claiming to be anti-US and anti-Israel. How charming.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
28. How you doing arguing with the strawmen?
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:30 PM
Sep 2013

No, mass murder isn't super-duper by any means, even though the current diplomatic position is a slap on the wrist for a one time usage. But a response to a thousand deaths that leave hundred thousand dead from conventional weapons is mass murder as well. Even if that were necessary, why is it necessary for the United States to be the dealer of all such punishment and death in response to warfare they do not deem to be appropriate?

Stop trying to use some false dichotomy (either its morally permissible or we must bomb them) and mis-characterizing people's positions.

 

Daniel537

(1,560 posts)
33. I have zero tolerance for fools whose first response to a report of mass murder is
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:36 PM
Sep 2013

"So what". Any person who truly calls themselves a liberal or progressive should condemn such vile statements.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
37. This report is a political justification for war in today's political environment
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:42 PM
Sep 2013

You can both say "so what" to the warmongers while understanding the depth of such tragedy. Many people feel many voices, but in times like this, even progressives and liberals may want to prioritize a voice they feel is against more death from war

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
31. Try to find one of my posts saying mass murder is ok
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:34 PM
Sep 2013

.
.
.

I'm saying it's none of the USA's business!

USA's war-machine has been slaughtering 100's of thousands over the globe for decades.

But they did it with "legal" weaponry . . . .

well, mostly - -

Vietnam and Fallujah come to mind . . .



with more than a few in between.

CC

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
11. Do you care about crimes against humanity
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:33 PM
Sep 2013

if they don't give you a chance to get up on your anti-American soapbox?

Apparently not.

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
19. You are not paying attention
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 04:35 PM
Sep 2013

.
.
.

I have said many times, and I mean it,

I AM NOT ANTI-AMERICAN!!!

It's your friggen government - neutered by the PNAC/MIC, big oil, big pharma et al.

I lived in CA for over a year - liked and loved most of the people I met there.

Have traveled up and down both coasts, and driven cross country, visiting over half the States.

Can't think of half a dozen people I didn't get along with there, including a few cops that I had occasion to deal with.

You are way off base viewing my posts as an "anti-American soapbox"

As for caring about crimes against humanity . . . .

Search my posts - you'll discover I damm well do care,

But the USA is not the "humanity" police to my knowledge.

CC

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
25. No - not that I recall.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:10 PM
Sep 2013

.
.
.

Haven't bumped into a thread like that,

pretty sure you'll provide one though.

Noticed you didn't address any of the issues in my post, - not surprised.

I have a rule, my own - I do not engage in elongated debates in a thread.

2 -3 is my limit, then I put the poster on what I call "Brain Ignore".

Appears to me you are looking for a fight.

I will not engage.

This is 3.

CC

snappyturtle

(14,656 posts)
16. I find the whole 'moral imperative' stance hypocritical....otoh
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 03:58 PM
Sep 2013

it was a heinous act that occurred in Syria.

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
17. " it was a heinous act that occurred in Syria." - yes it certainly was
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 04:21 PM
Sep 2013

.
.
.

But the USA is not the World's most moral country, especially when it comes to military issues.

So they should not be threatening anyone -

United Nations was initiated to prevent one, or more nations from grandstanding.

It appears an attack from the USA on Syria has been prevented, for the moment.

Regardless, USA has lost more respect (not that they have much left in the World),

by even SUGGESTING they would circumvent a UN decision and bomb Syria without a resolution.

There are a few countries over on THAT continent that can handle Syria,

USA has it's own problems on THIS continent.

I suggest the USA improve the USA.

soon

CC

snappyturtle

(14,656 posts)
18. Trust me I agree with you as unpopular as that obviously is.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 04:27 PM
Sep 2013

I don't think attacking Syria is off the table; may take a few
months but I think tptb want to attack.

 

ConcernedCanuk

(13,509 posts)
24. Agreeing with me is not as unpopular as one might think.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 04:57 PM
Sep 2013

.
.
.

Many just do not want to get into the fray - that's not news,

and that's part of the problem.

We sit back and hope bad shit won't happen . . .

It just ain't USAmericans that do that, us Canucks do it too!

How else would we have let Harper mess up our country?

There are many here that agree with me, but wouldn't dare to give a post a positive response for fear of the vitriol that would be slammed back at them.

It happens.

Not news that.

And yep, Syria is definitely not off the table. In Obama's mind, yes,

but the PNAC/MIC gang? They want another WAR!

You can take that to the bank.

CC

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
32. I don't think some people see this as "another" war
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:35 PM
Sep 2013

Its all part of the same plan, but just a different stage. They sit around chomping at the bit for an excuse to mop up. To not go into Syria is tantamount to stopping an entire war the US has already invested a fortune into.

freshwest

(53,661 posts)
21. This should encourage Assad to quit what using military tactics instead of political ones in Syria.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 04:42 PM
Sep 2013

Looks like a very detailed report from what I read. The specifics puzzle me as I am not military, but it's been criminal.

Hydra

(14,459 posts)
51. Thank you for the link
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 06:22 PM
Sep 2013

I read through it, and I can't find any specifics about who they thought did it. Did I miss anything? Verified sarin victims and rockets that were carrying them, 3 of the 5 missiles couldn't be backtraced but two could and were suspected to have been shot from a multi-launcher.

Does that lean Assad or Rebel groups?

 

John2

(2,730 posts)
27. I don't think any crow should be eaten.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:24 PM
Sep 2013

I think several questions need to be asked about this investigation and other information prior to this team being directed from their mission in Al Khansan. This attack happened after this team was directed to inspect another area. It appears to me, they never inspected the area they were suppose to inspect, which makes this whole investigation suspicious and a diversion.

I would still like to know the influence of Ban Ki Moon, who is from South Korea and have ties to the United States and the head of this investigative team, being a Sunni Muslim. There is too much conflict of interests, involving the players for this report. Moon should have removed himself period. They did not investigate the area they were originally in Syria for.

This team wasn't even in Syria long enough to get a thorough investigation and they were shot at by snipers. They have been trying to get this team in Syria a long time. I think this report was already fixed, because the members are not neutral at all. Ban Ki Moon cannot be trusted at all. If it was my decision, I would reject it entirely and let Obama have his War. I wouldn't give them one ounce of chemicals, unless Israel gave up their nukes. If Obama want to go against the American Public, let him. If the warmongers in Congress want to start another war against our will, let them. I think Syria has every right to put up a fight with everything at their disposal. I think the American people should just sit back and fire the warmongers in the next elections, because it want be a quick war period. The sooner they step in it the better, and Americans will get mad enough to finally get rid of these people. As far as I'm concerned Obama needs to get off the neocon meds, that is what he needs to do.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
30. So you reject the report as well as rejecting the
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:33 PM
Sep 2013

idea that Syria's government should give up its chemical weapons and even think they have the right to use chemical weapons.

Why not save the trouble of pretending to be about principle and just make Assad your avatar? You just endorsed his regime's use of chemical weapons, which makes you a sickening troll in my humble opinion. But a jury will probably disagree.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
34. Here is what I think about Syria giving up their chemical weapons....
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:38 PM
Sep 2013

The world should work together to raise funds to purchase replacement conventional weapons, like MOABs, Tomahawks, drones, etc, and whatever the fuck the United States uses these days, so they can afford to kill massive amounts of people in a morally acceptable manner.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
38. Not as cool ones as the US uses though
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:44 PM
Sep 2013

If the US take their chemical arms, they really ought to send them White Phosphorous and drones for terrorist weddings.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
39. The UN is taking their illegal chemical arms.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:46 PM
Sep 2013

No rational or decent human being would object to Syria losing its chemical weapons.

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
41. I just think they should be able to trade them in. Really, I have doubts of their cost efficiency
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:48 PM
Sep 2013

They could both upgrade their killing power and morality if we send them some gunboats. We just got to be sure these people can afford to efficiently kill in a morally acceptable way. Why leave it up to chance?

 

NoOneMan

(4,795 posts)
45. This entire arbitrary debate about what is a moral way to massacre people is
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:51 PM
Sep 2013

But I'm just glad the US does it the right way, though it sure costs a hefty penny.

 

John2

(2,730 posts)
46. No, rational or decent human being
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:52 PM
Sep 2013

would object to Israel losing their illegal nukes, now would they? The United States can do both, if they really wanted to.

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
47. You're on record as saying the Assad regime
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:53 PM
Sep 2013

has a right to keep and use chemical weapons, so you are not qualified to opine on what rational and decent people think.

 

John2

(2,730 posts)
43. Oh,
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:49 PM
Sep 2013

how many of those 100,000 did the Syrian Government massacre now, or are you just talking without really knowing?

Response to geek tragedy (Reply #30)

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
42. So, you think Obama is as scary as the Nazis were
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 05:49 PM
Sep 2013

that the UN report is a CIA front operation, and that Assad should keep his chemical weapons that you claim his regime totally didn't use.

Thank you for confirming that you are a troll.

 

arewenotdemo

(2,364 posts)
50. I agree that it could be a huge mistake.
Mon Sep 16, 2013, 06:22 PM
Sep 2013

It makes an American invasion of Syria more likely. How much more is hard to say.

I can only guess that Putin assured Assad that he would defend Syria should that happen.

Turborama

(22,109 posts)
69. BTW, the head of the UN's investigative mission is not a Sunni Muslim
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 10:39 AM
Sep 2013
Åke Sellström

Åke Sellström, born 1948, is a Swedish expert in arms, especially in chemical weapons. He received his Ph.D. in 1975 at University of Gothenburg and has been active at the Swedish Defence Research Agency (FOI).

He was one of the UN inspectors who examined the use of chemical weapons in Iraq in the 1990s. He returned to the country in 2002 to examine whether the regime restored the banned weapons program, for which they found no evidence.

He has held various positions with the United Nations, including as Chief Inspector with the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and as Senior Adviser to the Chairmen of UNSCOM and the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC) for the disarmament of Iraq.

In March 2013 he was appointed head of the UN team to investigate the possible use of chemical warfare weapons in Syria.

In Sweden, he has conducted research on biological and chemical weapons at the Swedish Defence Research Agency (FOI) in Umeå. It was through this service that he was recognized internationally, which resulted in the UN missions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%85ke_Sellstr%C3%B6m


David__77

(23,218 posts)
71. The US should consider providing more food and medical aid to Syria through the UN.
Tue Sep 17, 2013, 02:02 PM
Sep 2013

That would be a positive action. Also, ceasing military interference via non-state parties.

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