High gun ownership makes countries less safe, US study finds

[Robb]

Source: Guardian

American journal expedites publication of study in wake of navy yard shooting that debunks belief guns make a nation safer

Guns do not make a nation safer, say US doctors who have compared the rate of firearms-related deaths in countries where many people own guns with the death rate in countries where gun ownership is rare.

Their findings, published Wednesday in the prestigious American Journal of Medicine, debunk the historic belief among many people in the United States that guns make a country safer, they say. On the contrary, the US, with the most guns per head in the world, has the highest rate of deaths from firearms, while Japan, which has the lowest rate of gun ownership, has the least.

The journal has fast-tracked publication of the study because of the shootings at the Washington navy yard. It was originally scheduled for later this week.

It follows an emotional appeal from a doctor at the trauma center in Washington where the victims of Aaron Alexis' random violence were taken. "I would like you to put my trauma center out of business," Janis Orlowski, chief medical officer at MedStar Washington Hospital Center, told reporters in the aftermath of the massacre. "I would like to not be an expert on gunshots. Let's get rid of this. This is not America."

Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/18/gun-ownership-gun-deaths-study

[coldmountain]

1. Folk Darwinism meets disaster capitalism

[AnotherMcIntosh]

2. And is the corollary: a high ownership of fire extinguishers in homes make countries less safe?

If there are arsonists, should matches be taken away from the arsonists? Or should home owners be prohibited from owning fire extinguishers?

[IveWornAHundredPants]

6. Get back to us on that the next time a fire extinguisher is the tool used to kill a dozen people.

Your homework in the meantime is to look up the meaning of the word 'corollary.'

[starroute]

7. Fire extinguishers put out fires -- they don't cause them

Guns, on the other hand, are highly effective at causing gun deaths -- and notably inefficient at preventing them.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

8. You are right. Obviously, homeowners should not be allowed to choose as to whether to own

firearms in their homes for self defense.

This makes perfect sense.

[CreekDog]

16. did that poster say that all guns should be banned? no they didn't.

then why are you acting as if they did?

because you want to create a straw man because you can't win the argument without one.

[billh58]

19. At the risk of

pointing out the obvious, you are repeating an outright lie propagated by the NRA and other hair-on-fire gun proponents who keep repeating the falsehood that "Democrats are coming for your guns." We mean old Liberal Democrats are neither coming for your guns, nor your fire extinguishers.

Like your puzzling fire extinguisher analogy, gun control proponents are not advocating the confiscation of your guns. We only want you to keep it in your home, be responsible and accountable for it, register it, not "bear" it in public, and pass a national background check before purchasing each gun. We would also like to see a limit on how many guns may be purchased in any given time frame with possible exceptions for bona fide private collectors.

We would also like to see a ban on the manufacture and sale of rapid-fire weapons with high-capacity ammunition capabilities. We believe that there is no justifiable reason for these types of weapons to be owned by civilians.

When 80% of convicted felons admit to obtaining the weapons used in the commission of their crimes from private sellers, it should be obvious to everyone that there is a problem with the accountability for lethal weapons in this country.

MAIG, VPC, Americans for Responsible Solutions, The Brady Campaign, and many other gun control proponents are gaining momentum with and support from the American public for a return to sane gun control laws, and in making the corrupting right-wing influence of the NRA politically impotent.

[aikoaiko]

23. Bans on new firearms is "coming for your guns"

When you say to a legal buyer, you can buy whatever firearm you like, but not these firearms, then you have taken something away from that person.

I get it -- its not door-to-door confiscation by jack booted thugs, but it is removing a liberty from law abiding people.

[billh58]

24. SCOTUS reference:

"The Second Amendment right is not absolute and a wide range of gun control laws remain “presumptively lawful,” according to the Court. These include laws that (1) prohibit carrying concealed weapons, (2) prohibit gun possession by felons or the mentally retarded, (3) prohibit carrying firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, (4) impose “conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms,” (5) prohibit “dangerous and unusual weapons,” and (6) regulate firearm storage to prevent accidents. Justice Scalia wrote the majority opinion. He was joined by Justices Alito, Kennedy, Roberts, and Thomas."

http://www.cga.ct.gov/2008/rpt/2008-R-0578.htm

[aikoaiko]

26. So are you admitting that you are "coming for the guns"

because you have before and SCOTUS may agree?

Or not?

[billh58]

28. Nope.

Only the "dangerous and unusual" rapid fire, high-capacity weapons that are only designed for warfare, and which a general consensus of Americans agree that no civilian needs for self-defense, hunting, or any other use.

[NickB79]

38. Semi-automatic weapons clearly aren't "unusual"

Seeing as semi-auto handguns capable of accepting high-capacity magazines outnumber revolvers by an order of magnitude, and semi-auto rifles like the AR-15 and AK have been some of the most widely sold long guns in the US for over a decade. Hell, even the venerable pump-action shotgun is being displaced by semi-auto variants. The days of hunters taking old-fashioned lever-action .30-30's and bolt-action Remingtons into the field have passed.

The reality is that most Americans who purchase guns today DO feel a semi-automatic firearm capable of accepting high capacity magazines is the best option for self-defense, hunting and other uses, and use them for those purposes every day. If you want to propose restrictions on the magazines that are used in these guns, have at it. The old AWB set 10 rounds as a limit, and I think that was a good compromise. But from a technical standpoint, there is nothing new or unusual about a gun capable of firing multiple shots from a magazine without working the action (unless you are from the late 1800's).

[Heywood J]

39. "have been some of the most widely sold long guns in the US for over a decade"

Isn't it funny that in the "days of hunters taking old-fashioned lever-action .30-30's and bolt-action Remingtons into the field", there were far fewer mass shootings? Yet, somehow, hunters managed to bring back trophies or food. I do recall that it was a point of pride to need only one bullet. Are today's hunters such awful marksmen as to need a semi-auto with a high-cap magazine to go up against a deer? Or is it that the attention span has decreased to the point where they can't stand sitting in a blind and waiting all day for the shot?

[NickB79]

50. It's mostly marketing and media hype, really

Also, women are the fastest-growing segment of new gun owners and hunters, and semi-autos typically have less felt recoil than the old-fashioned bolt action rifles and .357 revolvers.

Personally though, I'm saving up my money to buy one of these:
I'm still a sucker for a beautiful piece of walnut and fine European craftsmanship.

[Heywood J]

65. That's a nice hunting rifle. Looks well-made.

I do note the conspicuous lack of high-capacity magazine, laser sight, military styling, etc. that characterize so many of today's "sporting" rifles.

[sarisataka]

43. Looking for a point of agreement

given your statement, would you say the thread in GCRA advocating adding the Remington 870, used in the Navy Yard, to the named ban list is misguided. http://www.democraticunderground.com/12624764

The Remington Model 870 is a U.S.-made pump-action shotgun manufactured by Remington Arms Company, LLC. It is widely used by the public for sport shooting, hunting, and self-defense. It is also commonly used by law enforcement and military organizations worldwide.

****

On April 13, 2009, the ten millionth Model 870 was produced, and the 870 holds the record for best-selling shotgun in history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remington_Model_870

[NutmegYankee]

25. There is a valid fear that it's the first step in a process that ends that way.

It's not unlike what I witnessed happen in Virginia with abortion. Sure, there was never a real outright effort to end abortion. Laws were introduced that continually chipped away at it in the name of "safety". The process got longer and longer, more expensive, and a hell of a lot more invasive. This continued until the latest TRAP law basically shut down several clinics. This little at a time technique works, so it's a valid fear for people. I fought like hell before I left VA to oppose the new abortion laws because I knew their ultimate game plan.

What you have proposed isn't that unreasonable. But how do you prove that next year even more stringent laws wouldn't be imposed. And the year after that...


That's what you're facing.

[primavera]

58. Yes, it does - n/t

[ConcernedCanuk]

3. hmmm

.
.
.



CC

[billh58]

4. Only the die hard

cold-dead-hands NRA apologists and supporters will attempt to debunk this study. The obvious conclusion that more guns equals more opportunity for death and injury by a lethal weapon is apparent to those who can think for themselves.

The NRA and its arms dealer benefactors are, and have been, using the Second Amendment as a marketing tool and nothing more. They prey on gullible gun nuts, and enable them to allow the proliferation of deadly weapons to flow to criminals and mentally unstable individuals through "private" sales and outright straw purchases. The more guns they sell the higher the profits, and death and injury to innocent Americans is just another cost of doing business.

The NRA actively purchases politicians at all levels of government to enact insane SYG and CCW laws which produce cop wannabes like Zimmerman and his ilk.

Support MAIG, The Brady Organization, Americans for Responsible Solutions, VPC, and all of the other patriotic organizations working to turn back the NRA and its insidious influence on our society.

[Botany]

9. The NRA has worked for years to kill any studies that would look at links ...

.... between the #s and the availability of guns and gun violence. At their core the NRA
is un-American organization and no friend to the American people.

[Botany]

5. Think Progress: Largest Gun Study Ever: More Guns, More Murder

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023688322

*******
It is the guns, end of story

[onehandle]

10. Unpossible. I've only known two gun lovin, teabaggers who have shot themselves.

Actually it was one guy, two instances.

But he's a dear old friend, so I only make fun of him for his bad luck with women.

[SansACause]

11. In a related story, smoking causes cancer.

Someone took the Obviousmobile out for a drive.

[lumberjack_jeff]

12. The violent crime victimization rate is 28% of what it was in 1993.

I'm generally supportive of gun regulation, but it's a difficult argument to say that proliferation has made us unsafe, when in fact we have become dramatically more safe from crime in the last 20 years.

http://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=nvat

[Bragi]

18. Changing demographics

As societies get older, crime goes down, because most crimes are committed by younger adults.

[closeupready]

21. OMG, lol.

[Hoyt]

51. How low might it be with less guns, fewer Zimmermans, armed border Klan, etc.

[lumberjack_jeff]

52. I don't know what you can do to legislatively limit the number of Zimmermans.

Socially, something has changed in the last 30 years to reduce violent crime. Is it gun proliferation? Is it civil rights? Is it porn? Is it removal of lead from the environment? Is it the police state? Is it gentrification? Is it violent video games?

I dunno. But it's irrational to argue against the proliferation of anything on the basis that it increases crime when that proliferation is correlated with actual crime reduction.

Correlation may not be causation, but it'd be good to know what the causative factors are.

[Hoyt]

54. Aging population, better surveillance, tougher sentences, etc., not your gunz.

No matter how much you promote and celebrate them.

[lumberjack_jeff]

55. You're poking your finger in the wrong chest, pal.

I think that guns should be regulated if for no other reason than they cause too many accidental shootings and suicides.

Because crime? Not so much.

[RedCloud]

13. Some % of GOP vote comes from gun lugger licenses.

Therefore we all must die so they can filibuster.

[hughee99]

14. I agree completely, though I did find it odd to see that

as far as gun ownership goes, the countries I'd like to live in or visit seem to have a greater rate of gun ownership than those I'd be more likely to avoid. I wonder why I feel drawn to such dangerous places?

[7962]

15. (your sarcasm is noted!) Because this study is half baked. Look at the countries you mention;

Whats the gun crime/murder rate in Norway? Switzerland? Finland ? All have high ownership rates. South Africa, mentioned in the article, is 50th yet has a high murder rate per 100k.
Rwanda, North Korea and Haiti are tied with Japan in gun ownership rates. Feel safer in those countries than here?
There's an elephant or 2 in the room that NO ONE wants to talk about.

[hughee99]

20. It certainly makes sense that more guns equal more GUN related deaths,

in much the same way that more driving would result in more DRIVING related deaths or more smoking would result in more SMOKING related deaths. However, gun deaths isn't the same as Homicides.

[Guaguacoa]

62. It looks like a pick and choose article.

I see no mention of murder or safety here in mexico where legal gun ownership is VERY low and criminals have military grade full autos, grenades and rocket launchers. One could find examples of countries where gun ownership is low but deaths higher than those with higher gun ownership. The cherry picking is VERY obvious.

[Uncle Joe]

17. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Robb.

[blkmusclmachine]

22. !

!

[Warpy]

27. Gee, what a surprise. I mean really.

Didn't they remember to study only Switzerland?

[askeptic]

29. "The gun ownership rate was a strong and independent predictor of firearm-related death,"

well, duh! This is studying firearm - related deaths - only. Hard to shoot people if you aren't allowed to own a gun, for sure -- you have to do them in some other way.

I am failing to see how this study shows a country to be more - or less safe based on gun ownership. There are many places in the world where gun ownership is not allowed, and I would feel much less safe than in the USA.

[EX500rider]

30. On the other hand...

...........the countries here with higher gun ownership are far safer then those with low......hmmmmmm

[img/][img]

[Robb]

31. If you want to be a little less obvious, don't hotlink from Guns.com.

Just a suggestion.

[EX500rider]

33. Yes the ole attack the source when you got nothing else.. n/t

[ManiacJoe]

32. It is a user problem, not a tool problem.

Guns are dangerous tools. Like all other dangerous tools, they need to be used safely and stored safely else the user is a danger to himself and to others. This is a user problem. As an object, if left alone a gun does nothing more than rust and collect dust.

[Robb]

34. Which is why at a minimum we should be thoroughly vetting and licensing all users.

And regulate the way users utilize the tools. Think any "gun rights" advocates would let OSHA handle gun regs?

[Adam-Bomb]

35. Those doctors are wrong, sorry.

The crime rate has been dropping since before Clinton was President.

[Daniel537]

42. True

But the fact remains, our level of per capita gun violence is still higher, many times over, than other developed countries like Japan, Australia, Britain etc... And the reason for that is simple. Easy access to firearms. There's no getting around that fact.

[Throd]

36. "High gun ownership"? I agree, people shouldn't handle guns when they're high.

[LAGC]

37. That would be good to know, if only all deaths were committed by firearm.

But that's only part of the story, isn't it?

Of course less firearms = less firearms deaths. No kidding. Less access to any particular tool will make the likelihood of it being used for any given purpose less. Duh!

But what good does it do to focus on just firearms when people die of so many other causes? Causes much more prevalent and likely than dying from a firearm?

Japan has no guns, but their suicide rate is through the roof. They have no problem figuring out ways to kill themselves in the absence of guns.

"Where there's a will, there's a way..."

Even if rounding up every single gun in America were possible somehow, even if you assume the black market could somehow be controlled (like our failed war on drugs, perhaps? ) -- people would still die by other means in roughly the same number.

You can either go after the symptom (gun violence) or go after the cause (the factors that lead some to resort to violence in the first place) -- it doesn't take much imagination to figure out which approach is more effective.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

45. re: "Where there's a will, there's a way..."

I prefer the quote from the movie: "Where there's a will, there's a weapon."

Any idea why a group that loves to take the "epidemiology" approach to gun violence would diverge from good clinical practice and advocate treating symptoms but not the cause?

[primavera]

60. Who says the two are mutually exclusive?

Never have I heard a gun control advocate suggest that no effort should be undertaken to address the underlying root causes of violence like poverty, mental illness, disenfranchisement, etc. To suggest that gun control advocates wish to ignore such causes is a straw man argument lacking any validity. What gun control proponents do believe is that, until such time as we have addressed those underlying causes of violence so that people no longer feel the need to resort to violence, the efficacy of the tools with which they carry out those acts of violence is a legitimate part of the equation. To take your example of suicide, 5% of all suicides attempted use guns; 55% of successful suicides use guns. Would you care to tell me again how irrelevant the choice of methods are in the end death rate?

[GreenStormCloud]

40. As usual, the study does not separate the legal from the illegal gun owners. N/T

[hack89]

41. There is no moral difference between criminals and legal gun owners

we are all merely pre-criminals.

[Eleanors38]

44. It's: "You're law-abiding until you're not."

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

46. The NSA knows everything.

They'll be reading our texts, emails and minds; they can probably hack into a web-enabled TV and see what news and politics you follow.

Exactly what we all need is to have the government more involved in our day-to-day lives.

[Eleanors38]

47. Gun-control is arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

[discntnt_irny_srcsm]

48. not to worry...

...they'll be listening for the sound of the 12ga pump over OnStar while someone does a smash & grab for the groceries you got from the food bank because you're out of work.

ain't we somethin'

[Hoyt]

56. Yep, the gun culture told us Zimmerman was a Saint, before and after murdering T Martin.

[hack89]

57. Are all gun owners pre-criminals in your eyes? nt

[Hoyt]

59. They are clearly more likely to shoot, intimidate, cause an accident, scare little kids, etc.,

than those more rational about gunz. And, they are poor role models for future generations.

[primavera]

61. Not just gun owners

Read Hannah Arendt: everyone has the potential, under the right circumstances and stimuli, to do unspeakably awful things. That is why we thankfully pass laws and do not have to live in the chaos of anarchy.

[Sunlei]

49. It's certainly less safe for innocent people.

[KamaAina]

53. The full study is in this month's issue of DUH! magazine.

On newsstands now.

[Blandocyte]

63. The dogs bark. The caravan rolls on.

More guns correlated with more gun deaths. Surprise.

[quadrature]

64. barkward-looking Neanderthals don't like the ...

idea of the little people being able to
protect themselves.