Pope Francis: Church can't 'interfere' with gays

[charlie and algernon]

Source: CNN

(CNN) - Pope Francis said the church has the right to express its opinions but not to "interfere spiritually" in the lives of gays and lesbians, expanding on explosive comments he made in July about not judging homosexuals.

In a wide-ranging interview published Thursday, the pope also said that women must play a key role in church decisions and brushed off critics who say he should be more vocal about fighting abortion and gay marriage.

Moreover, if the church fails to find a "new balance" between its spiritual and political missions, the pope warned, its moral foundation will "fall like a house of cards."

SNIP

"The church has sometimes locked itself up in small things," the pope said, "in small-minded rules."

"The people of God want pastors," Francis continued, "not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials."


Read more: http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/09/19/pope-francis-church-cant-interfere-with-gays/

[Drale]

1. I bet there are some Cardinals who are kicking themselves for voting for him right now

but if he can make the church more liberal the world will be a better place for it.

[CountAllVotes]

11. Francis would have been the pope no matter what

When Benedict resigned, Francis was next in line for the job. It was a done deal the second Benedict said farewell (*whew*).

Why do I know this?

I happen to be Catholic and the day that pope Francis was named I was watching the celebrations in Argentina and they were saying all of what I just wrote in Spanish that day -- that pope Francis would have been the pope already had Benedict not taken the position.

So all of this waiting for the smoke to rise, etc. was all but a show for those that wanted to believe that it was a real secret matter where in fact, there was nothing secret about it because everyone knew already.

As for the Cardinal's vote, I doubt he's kicking himself as who else could he have voted for? No one is the answer in a done deal scenario as this one was.

All said, I like this pope more that Benedict, that is for certain.

As for the role of women in the Church, I have noted some big changes. Women are now serving communion to people and young girls are now "alter boys". I've seen one boy serving as an alter boy recently, just one. As for the girl, she's probably about 12 years old would be my guess with her very proud parents in attendance at every Church event where she has a role in the actual Mass intself. This is beyond belief for many old Catholics that always believe a woman's place is in the home having babies. Period.

He is trying to do good and make some changes slowly which is quite difficult when you consider how many very devout Catholics are still out there -- maybe not in the USA but in other places throughout the world.

I hope this helps and yes, this is a highly confusing issue and it is too bad that not everyone speaks Spanish and have the chance to know the reality of why pope Francis is now the "new pope". New? Not really ...

As for myself, I am indeed Catholic and I suppose it helps a bit around here to have someone that really does know what is going on with the Church these days. In fact, that is why I have been going recently, to keep up with what IS going on.

[pnwmom]

32. It sounds like Pope Francis was popular in Argentina and that might be

a simpler explanation for why people expected him to be Pope some day.

I am also Catholic and I doubt that those rumors you heard meant much of anything. Some people in Boston also expected their popular Bishop to be Pope material. If that had happened, they'd probably be congratulating themselves for guessing right, too.

Girls never stopped serving at the altar in my Parish so that isn't a "big change" here. But Pope Francis seems like a breath of fresh air.

[Beacool]

35. I just came back from Buenos Aires on Monday.

What people meant is that he would have been Pope since 2005 because in that Conclave cardinal Bergoglio came in second place after cardinal Ratzinger. That he would come in first place in the voting this time around was not a foregone conclusion.

[eridani]

48. Pope Francis is making the church far more popular among non-Catholics

Closer to the real mission of Christ than it has been since John 23rd.

[Teacheral]

34. Hope this pope survives because

This pope better get himself a food taster.

[gopiscrap]

37. Welcome to DU

Remember John Paul I? Read a book called "In God's Name"

[orpupilofnature57]

51. Welcome Teacheral !! Imagine what Torquemada would say ?

[Posteritatis]

49. Probably at least a few feeling pretty good about it too

Remember, this time last year Francis was a cardinal.

[The Magistrate]

2. Fella Does Grow On Me A Little, Sir...

Perhaps as the years go on the hands may begin to act as the mouth suggests....

[Democrats_win]

3. They no longer have the ability to interfere

His comments are correct, but a little disingenuous now that governments are giving gays the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness in spite of the church.

[eShirl]

8. I'll cut him a little slack on that since he's only been the Head Pope a few months.

[former9thward]

53. That is happening only in the classical Western countries.

Gays are still oppressed in most of Africa, Asia and parts of South America.

[Hekate]

4. KnR. If he lives long enough the Church may stop hemorrhaging members ...

... and start gaining more sound priests. The Church may find itself in the 21st century and living more by the compassionate teachings of Jesus at the same time.

It's not just Catholics who need him; because of the sheer size and influence of the Roman Catholic Church, the world does too.
My heart goes out to this guy -- I really like him.

[MNBrewer]

5. There's an archbishop in MN who needs to read this statement over and over until it sinks in

"The people of God want pastors, not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials."

[charlie and algernon]

7. I've been harping on that for years

The Church has become FAR FAR FAR too political. FAR FAR FAR too involved with Right Wing ideologies. When I go to church, I want to hear about Jesus and His teachings, you know, actual theology. NOT how gays and liberals are evil.

[Surya Gayatri]

6. This man may prove to be the most progressive pope in modern history...

Perhaps unintentionally, those cardinals may just have elected the only pontiff capable of taking on their own hidebound, retrograde traditions.

I like and respect this guy more with every pronouncement.

[avaistheone1]

21. Defintely the most progressive in recent history.

I just wonder if he is going to survive his papacy. Francis has to be shaking up a lot of conservatives within the Church....some of those folks are not very nice people.

[Faygo Kid]

25. John XXIII was probably the most progressive for his time. Until now.

I'm not Catholic, or even religious, but I respect this man.

[avaistheone1]

29. I agree. John the XXIII had humility, a deep spirituallity in my opinion and

an iconic vision of world peace and ecumenism.

[gopiscrap]

40. I agree with and I was born and have spent 28 years of my life in the Roman Catholic Church

[snooper2]

9. I think this dude sees the writing on the wall...

Religion is going the way of the dodo bird and he is fighting to make it seem more "Rational"...


But you are doomed to failure dude. Keep up the good fight for your fundies though

[happyslug]

13. Watch what you ask for, you sometimes gets it

Last edited Thu Sep 19, 2013, 01:29 PM - Edit history (1)

Church attendance is down, but religious belief seems to be holding its own. Survey after survey points own these two trends. It indicates more a disconnection with you local community then anything to do with religious beliefs.

Other indications of a drop in community activities, include less and less people becoming Volunteers for any event. Volunteer fire departments are having a hard time finding people who wants to join them. Even bowling leagues have seen substantial drop in members (While Bowling as a whole is undergoing a boom).

In many ways we are returning to the 1800s, where you had a disconnect between people and their communities. The main reason for this is people are less secure in their jobs (thus have to move to find new jobs) and an overall drop in income.

When America last had an increase in Church membership was the same time period where we had extensive Union membership, increasing wages and increasing secure employment (The 1950s-1970s). This also saw increase in membership in bowling leagues, Volunteer Fire Departments and other Volunteer groups. Thus the drop in Church attendance shows that our societies social groupings are in decline. Given people are social animals that is NOT a good sign.

Back to the Pope, he is trying to show the world that being a member of a Community is important and the Church should try to help people be a member of a community. He is trying to be inclusive so that people see they need to work together to make a better society. Thus joining a Church, joining a Volunteer Fire Department, agreeing to volunteer at a community function all help a society act as if all of its members are one, not a bunch of individuals looking for something to be part of.

[caseymoz]

15. Blowing leagues?

I won't ask . . .

[jberryhill]

26. You know.... down at the blowing alley

Now, where did I put my shoes...

[bulloney]

27. Monica Lewinski's the league president. Didn't you get the memo?

[happyslug]

28. I meant Bowling leagues

I am sorry, I used a Spell Check.

A Little Poem Regarding Computer Spell Checkers...

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It came with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew.

Another version:

ODE TO A SPELL CHECKER
by Jerrold H Zar

Eye halve a spelling check her,
It came with my pea sea.
It plane lee marks four my revue
Miss steaks aye kin knot sea.

Eye ran this poem threw it,
Your sure reel glad two no.
Its vary polished in it’s weigh,
My checker tolled me sew.

A check her is a bless sing;
It freeze yew lodes of thyme.
It helps me right awl stiles two reed,
And aides me when aye rime.

Each frays come posed up on my screen,
Eye trussed too bee a joule;
The checker pours o’er every word
To cheque sum spelling rule.

Bee fore wee rote with checkers
Hour spelling was inn deck line,
Butt now when wee dew have a laps,
Wee are knot maid too wine.

Butt now bee cause my spelling
Is checked with such grate flare,
There are know faults with in my cite,
Of nun eye am a wear.

Now spelling does knot phase me,
It does knot bring a tier;
My pay purrs awl due glad den
With wrapped words fare as hear.

To rite with care is quite a feet
Of witch won should be proud;
And we mussed dew the best wee can
Sew flaws are knot aloud.

That’s why eye brake in two averse
Cuz eye dew want too please.
Sow glad eye yam that aye did bye
This soft wear four pea seas.

[caseymoz]

46. I know. It's a mistake anybody could make.

I just needed a laugh.

[Beacool]

10. I heart this Pope.

I just came back this week from Buenos Aires and brought some Pope memorabilia for people who asked me to bring them some Pope stuff. Most of these folks didn't give a darn about the previous popes.

I hope that Francis lives long enough to enact some much needed Church reforms.



I bet the conservative Catholics have not been very happy these last 6 months.

[Volaris]

24. Fuck them.

We have had to endure decades of Santorum-type RC's telling us that the edicts of His Holiness are above question, and so a lot of us quietly prayed for and Publicly Voted for the changes we wanted/needed. Well, now if the shoe really is on the other foot, they can live by their own doctrine of Obedience, and shut the fuck up about it, same as they expected of us.



I like this Pope more and more everyday.

[Beacool]

38. I agree, screw them!!!

I too like this Pope a lot.

[gordianot]

12. He has been a surprise given how some predicted ultra conservatism.

It makes one wonder how that happens.

[caseymoz]

14. Is the Pope Catholic?

Sheesh. I'm thinking the faithful who always thought the church was all about bashing queers and keeping women in sin-proof containers must be wondering about that now.

[CountAllVotes]

17. That is not true today

Not at all true around where I live these days anyway.

You are writing about a church of the past, a Church I remember dating back to the 1960s.

It has had to change since the 1980s.

I remember going to a "divorce work shop" at that time as was considering getting divorced. They weren't against it and that was no secret and this was in about 1985 or so.

When John Paul was pope they were offering free counseling for women that had had abortions, yes, abortions. This was in about 1995 or so if I remember right.

That said, women have bigger roles with every day that passes now because they need them in the Church and in their ceremonies, that is the reality of it best I can tell.

I keep a close eye on the what the Church is doing for good reason -- lots of many very close ties via blood to it (lots of priests, nuns, Monsignor's etc. in my family so yes, you better believe I've got my eyeball on them!).

Where I live, the priest is a good man IMO. He came out in solidarity against what was going on in Russia and the way that gays are being persecuted. He wore a rainbow stole around himself that day (a few weeks ago) and I was shocked but asked no questions as there were no question to ask. Just look ...

[caseymoz]

23. I came of age in the 70s.

I was Catholic, and then it was purportedly "not true today" either. When you're committed to keeping your faith at all cost-- because that's your worth, that determines the fate of your everlasting soul, and perhaps the souls of those you love-- you'd be surprised at your capacity to ignore what the clergy and the church itself is doing. That's part of the reason why pedophiles got away with being priests for so long.

I can't argue with your points, but I can say, you've never been able to make that comparison. The main qualities I remember from Catholic School are racism and homophobia, and later, sexism. The clergy was better about racism but worse about homophobia and sexism.

I don't think the Church can reform due to its reading of its own history and its role in humanity. I think it'll die out first.

[CountAllVotes]

39. Luckily I never attended Catholic school

My family did not have the $$$ for it so I went to public school just like the rest of the WASP kids in my neighborhood. I was pretty solitary being Catholic and not Protestant.

Anyway, that said, being there was no money for their schools, I did not attend one and never bothered with confirmation either as my mother left it up to me and I opted out.

That said I'm somewhat like an outsider looking at this to a point.

I have noted that no more ultra-rich are attending Mass any longer. Where did they go with their BMW's? To hell I rather hope as they were of no real use best I could tell. So this too is a good aspect of this meltdown from a somewhat unique perspective.

[struggle4progress]

36. The first time I ever heard a sermon against homophobia was in a Roman Catholic church

[CountAllVotes]

41. I've never heard one

In fact I never knew that homosexuality existed until I was in my teenage years. I had no idea of any of it.

Closed world for many, believe me.

[obama2terms]

61. Oh he is, he's just smart

He knows that more and more people are beginning to support gay rights, and have more respect for women and their contributions to society. I'm sure these are his true views, but the way things are going he's not afraid to say it anymore. He also knows that if the church doesn't let up, they're going to keep losing people. Now I know it's early, but hopefully he is starting to do something about these pedophile priests that are rarely prosecuted for their crime(s). They usually just get sent to another country and continue to do what they have always done, it's sickening and frightening and I hope he takes action on it. I think that's something everyone can agree on.

[Sunlei]

16. I really like this Pope Francis

[highplainsdem]

18. I'm liking this pope more and more.

[bklyncowgirl]

19. As an estranged Catholic, I applaud Pope Francis

I hope his message trickles down through the hierarchy to the parish level.

I'm now a "Christmas & Easter" Lutheran, more or less an agnostic to be honest about it. I like the pastor and community at my husband's church. I don't know if I'd ever consider returning to the Catholic Church. I disagree with many teachings of the Church that Pope Francis clearly believes in, but his attitude is refreshing and he strikes me as a sincerely religious man and a practical one too.

I also imagine that Conservatives, including some of our U.S. Cardinals who've allied themselves with the GOP must be seriously unhappy with this guy.

[Arkana]

20. As Catholics go, Pope Francis seems like an OK dude.

He's a great deal more tolerant than any of his predecessors.

[tblue]

22. If I was Pope

I hope I'd be like this one. A healing, embracing, populist Pope who lives in the real here and now. What a breath of fresh air!

[Blandocyte]

30. The Church is way bigger than just the latest pope

"The people of God want pastors," Francis continued, "not clergy acting like bureaucrats or government officials."

The Church doesn't care what the people want, it cares what the God they invented wants. One little pope won't stand in the way of that.

[Historic NY]

31. He is the "most" interesting Pope....

I got to say I'm following along more than I've done in several decades when the church left me.

[obxhead]

33. Moral foundation...

Yeah, I think that was lost many centuries ago by the church.

Many followers still have it, but the church as a whole? Not really.

[Arugula Latte]

42. Isn't it rich?

This church has inflicted untold human suffering for centuries -- one of the most vile and corrupt institutions in world history. What a freaking joke.

[bklyncowgirl]

54. That's what the Pope is trying to get at.

He understands that the Church has lost its moral authority and describes his Church as a wounded patient in triage. You work on the urgent things first.

Hopefully that includes a no tolerance, throw them to the cops policy toward child molesting priests.

[obxhead]

55. I see authority and foundation as 2 different things.

The foundation was traded for expansion centuries ago. Many centuries ago.

[DeSwiss]

43. That's right Francis.....

...inch them away from the edge. Slowly, but surely. They can make it to sanity with a calm, but steady hand. Keep reminding them.... Matthew 7:1. Matthew 7:1. Matthew 7:1. Matthew 7:1. Matthew 7:1......

- Boy I'll bet Bill Donohue is screaming at the ceilings and cursing GOD out, right about now.....

K&R

[closeupready]

44. If this is one step amongst many towards a more loving church,

then good. In isolation, however, it's merely words. But I'll K&R anyway.

[Boomerproud]

50. Yes, right now it's only words.

I'm waiting for action. When and if it comes, great.

[Blasphemer]

45. I'd love to get inside this man's head

He has to be careful with his public statements because of the conservatives but I imagine his private thoughts are truly radical where Catholicism is concerned.

[Peace Patriot]

47. The Church hierarchy may be finally coming round to Jesus' view...

The only sin is lack of love.

It's taken them about 1,500 years. And it's still iffy whether such a monolithic beast can shed its history of tyranny over the human soul, of wedding themselves to state power (including horrendous violence) to impose religious uniformity, of male self-worship and obsession with controlling other peoples' sexuality, and all these male prelates' obsession with "doctrine"--especially the utter absurdity that "God the Father" and "God the Son" somehow created each other without "God the Mother," and with "the Holy Spirit" stuck in there, "mysteriously" (Gawd, they are as funny as Tea Partyers--indeed, the "Fathers of the Church" were the original Tea Partyers--people right out of Lewis Carroll's "Mad Tea Party&quot .

Anyway, they have A LOT of lovelessness to repent of, before they can call themselves Christians, and before they can emerge from the toxic clouds that surround them--of fascism, murder, greed, repression and, lately, raping thousands upon thousands of children.

The male hierarchy's sin is so big, so all encompassing and so persistent, that, in a way, I feel that an equally big and momentous reformation could occur, and could occur quickly. I feel the same about our democracy. The crimes of our war machine and the rich and powerful are so enormous that reform WILL occur--no matter how they try to stop it (lately, with the 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines). If history is any guide, it is inevitable. Whether it happens relatively peacefully or not is an open question. Our democracy was designed to make peaceful change possible but all those mechanisms for correcting a wrong course--through political action, political discussion, peaceful assembly, voting, etc.--have been gravely eroded and tampered with. But it WILL happen. Perhaps that accounts for the frantic and obscene profiteering by the rich. They KNOW their time is short for amassing fortunes big enough to buy themselves another country or an island somewhere or perhaps a biosphere in outer space. We haven't seen such mind-boggling social irresponsibility since the Tzars of Russia.

In any case, if history is any guide (and I'm not sure, with Planet Earth in real and unprecedented peril, that history can always help us), the Church--not by action of its monarch, but by action of its lowliest members--ordinary parishioners, nuns--almost all--some rare priests, some monks--may finally acknowledge its wrong path, for millennia now, and become the open-hearted community that the New Testament reveals (and that the earliest Christians were). I have more hope for this happening, and even happening quickly, than I do for us getting rid of our war machine and corporate rule any time soon.

It was the loveliest of ideas to begin with, that all are welcome and ALL ARE EQUAL in the human community--slaves and tax collectors, fishermen and thieves, rich and poor, women and men, the privileged and the untouchable, the educated and the ignorant, no matter their status in society, no matter their prior history--of greed, of prostitution, of selfishness, of crime, of low birth or high birth--no matter their status as tribal enemies, no matter their race. NOTHING mattered to Jesus except that you "love thy neighbor as thyself." That's the New Testament, and it really is a remarkable teaching, and remarkable, too, that its light still shines, despite two millennia of the original Tea Partyers messing with the texts.

Pope Francis is the expression of the collective will of the PEOPLE of the Church. Cardinals voted for him, in that closed, monolithic system, but those cardinals had quite a bit of "handwriting on the wall" to consider--in loss of membership, in the outrage of ordinary Catholics at the child molestation scandals, in the outrage of many Catholic women at being left out of the Trinity, in reactions against the fascist politics of the Church, recently and over the millennia, and more. The rebellion against all this has been under way for some time--at least since Vatican II. Some cardinals and bishops certainly will try to limit the reform and they may undo it all, with another convulsive reversion to the Middle Ages, but change has been thrust upon them, for sure--from below--and we ought to credit those who really brought it about, and not accept the corporate news world's view that it's all about the monarch.

[olegramps]

58. I enjoyed your commentary.

They very well may have seen the "writing on the wall" but it will be very difficult to erase doctrines that have been upheld by numerous of his predecessors. It would require a direct refutation of previous teachings that were thought to be without error. John XXIII provided the impetus to make bold changes, but those who followed didn't have the faith or fortitude to make changes such as the church's condemnation of contraception. The conservatives were determined to protect the image of the papacy at any cost and the result was catastrophic.

[Ken Burch]

52. I kind of like this guy.

Didn't think I would, but I did.

Ratzi must be spending his days playing "Tomorrow Belongs To Me" over and over again while sucking his thumb.

(And the advice Ratzi got from God telling him to resign? I'm thinking it was Roy Bourgeois and the nuns in the next room with a Mr. Microphone).

[merrily]

56. Almost nothing in the Bible requires harassing or trying to control anyone else.

Because I don't want to mislead, I hasten to add that one tiny exception to that has to do with observing the Sabbath in Israel, possibly only in Old Testament Israel, but it has nothing to do with gays.

Short of that, the Bible sets out a set of rules for YOU to follow, if YOU so choose.

[Vashta Nerada]

57. But it's a-okay if the Church covers up child pedophilia.

Hmmmm.

[blkmusclmachine]

59. So very little, and so very late.

[bucolic_frolic]

60. OMG, THIS is THE GUY!

"Moreover, if the church fails to find a "new balance" between its spiritual and political missions, the pope warned, its moral foundation will "fall like a house of cards." "

He understands political and spiritual legitimacy, and how to broaden
Church appeal by relaxing dogma with a message of love for humanity.

Incredible. Has this been decades in the making? In the 1960s the Papacy
was said to experience a breath of fresh air, but reforms were mild. Then
it was like a Cold War of tradition.

Certainly this Pope is not going rogue, some who elected him and many
supporting him knew what direction he would go.

This is the Papal equivalent of Quantitative Easing!!

[treestar]

62. Wow. And he will certainly get some heat from

right wingers in the church and otherwise.

[Arugula Latte]

63. Then the church had fucking better stop funding things like Prop 8!!!

Oh, and keep your anti-women goons out of congressional hearings, too, you bloody RCC creeps.

[OldRedneck]

64. The Pope had better watch his step . . .

. . . or the Tea Party will challenge him in a primary election!!!