Deadly gunbattle in Nairobi shopping mall

[Bosonic]

Source: Al Jazeera

A gun battle inside a shopping centre in the Kenyan capital, Nairobi, has left at least nine people dead, according to witness reports.

Gunfire is ongoing and armed police are at the Westgate centre in the Westlands district - one of the city's most exclusive shopping malls. The gunmen are reported to be carrying assault rifles and wearing combat fatigues.

One witness who spoke to Al Jazeera from inside the mall said the centre was busy with Saturday afternoon shoppers.

Another witness said the attackers threw grenades into the building at about midday local time (09:00 GMT).

Read more: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/09/201392110386655370.html

[Bosonic]

1. Witness: Kenya attackers targeting non-Muslims

NAIROBI, Kenya (AP) — A witness to the attacks at Nairobi's upscale mall says that gunmen told Muslims to stand up and leave and that non-Muslims would be targeted.

Elijah Kamau said Saturday that attackers with AK-47s and grenades made the statement about Muslims as they began their attack at the Westgate shopping mall in Kenya's capital around midday.

Gunmen threw grenades and opened fire during the attack.

Associated Press reporters at the scene said they saw about 10 dead bodies and dozens wounded more than two hours after the attack began. Officials did not yet give an official death toll.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/gunmen-open-fire-nairobis-most-upscale-mall

Reuters: #Kenya Red Cross says at least 15 people killed in #Nairobi shopping mall attack

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/381399973549834240

[Loudly]

2. Religion and guns. Same as it ever was.

[Oakenshield]

35. The means change, the cause stays the same.

Guns certainly make it easier for nutjobs and cowards to hurt people though.

[dgibby]

51. And coming to

the USA if the radical religous and very,very paranoid right gets it's way.

[Niceguy1]

79. ummm no

They may be idiors but they even come close to the radical islamists

[hlthe2b]

3. Glad it never happens here...

Oh, yeah.....

Just substitute NRA/Gun-worship for the religion.

[carla]

8. Not to diminish the impact

of shootings in the USA, I want to suggest that some 20 armed men intentionally targeting members of other religions than their own is something that doesn't yet happen in the USA. I hope it never gets to that. These murderers are shooting innocent people because they were reared with the "wrong" ideology. I am not religious, but I see that as more heinous than a confused or psychotic or schizophrenic person acting out in public. This could be, sadly, the start of a new tactic in the war of terrorists/state terror. The idea is to damage economic activity and thereby weaken the society that relies on commerce as culture, namely, the West. The terrorists are currently winning the struggle because the West has essentially abandoned any pretence of democracy, has scaled back civil liberties and indiscriminately spies on everyone for no good reason. If the armed men can disrupt the shopping activity of Western consumers, they will have knocked another hole in our wall and before long the breach may be so large that we cannot close it. I hope I am no Cassandra.

[bemildred]

10. Yes, this is bad, genocide is not far behind. nt

[hlthe2b]

13. I don't see a dramatic difference in the White Supremacist and other hate groups here

They are all cut of the same cloth. Hate drives more hate and the differences in mass murder are of little consequences to the victims and families. But call it 'Terrorism' (which for some reason so many here chose to exclude domestic terrorism from that definition) and it is fear-producing beyond comparison. Yet, in the US, domestic terrorism events are far more frequent, far more ignored, and excused.

Our news media, though, will cover this wall-to-wall (as they should), but generally exclude the domestic events beyond a very minimal "window" of mention.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

20. Please list the domestic terror events where literally a squad of soldiers....

....invaded a public place and began gunning down people based on religion?

I can think of the Milwaukee incident (one man) and the dude in Tennessee who shot up a Unitarian church.

You can include the Marathon bombing if you want, although I get the sense you wouldn't.

It's fairly obvious you're trying to dismiss today's horror by making up some false equivalence to what goes on in this country. Sorry, but this shit happens a lot elsewhere and it's becoming more frequent. Remember the church in Nigeria last year? When it happens here it's a lone wolf off his meds and someone didn't hug him enough.

[hlthe2b]

39. I DISMISS NOTHING... As horrified as I am by this event, I am aghast at how much many

Last edited Sat Sep 21, 2013, 04:22 PM - Edit history (1)

dismiss the brutality of mass murder in this country at the hands of what are clearly (but rarely labeled "domestic terrorism) and which is quite clear in this exchange.

It is not the horror of THIS event that should be downplayed or IS being downplayed--it rightfully should strike to the heart of any decent human being. And, I speak as one who lost a dear friend in the 1998 Kenyan Embassy bombing.

But it is domestic events that are dismissed because they strike to the heart of the gun obsessed and the racist haters. Of course we denounce these global terror attacks--how could we not?

Yet, our head is in the sand in terms of our response to that which occurs here. Mass killings HERE are NOT uncommon and we have an unprecedented amount of violent hate groups... I do not want that threat to go unanswered or ignored. You really ought to consider--whether THAT is what you want to defend, even if you can't bear criticism of gun related issues.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

59. I do not dismiss gun related deaths and issues

I'm on here every day pointing out that gun humpers who place their rights above children's lives are a fucking disgrace.

However, your attempt to act like what happened in Nairobi happens here daily and is carried out by an organized political/religious group is specious at best. It's just not the same thing. It's okay, for just one day, to be horrified by the rest of the world and not reflexively sputter about how awful America is.

[hlthe2b]

60. that comment is obscene. I NEVER "attempted to act like what happened in Nairobi happens here daily

..." You are as disingenuous as they come to suggest such. Merely pointing out that we do not pay sufficient attention nor act to prevent mass murder here does not, in any way suggest that.

How ugly can you be?

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

62. The first words out of your mouth regarding the whole thing....

....was to snark and be sarcastic about what "happens here", essentially diminishing it. How ugly was that?

And if you think this incident will be talked about longer than Newtown, Tuscon, or Aurora, you really aren't a very astute observer of the media. Aside from several Americans being among the victims, for the American media, if it doesn't happen on this continent, it's just another day.

[hlthe2b]

63. Snark? Hardly.. It is YOU that diminishes the horrrific violent mass murder here..

Gotta defend the gun industry, I guess. I surely hope it is not you denying the hate groups operating in concert in this country.

To accuse anyone bemoaning the status of violence in this country in the face of such a horrific incident of snark, reveals everyone on this website exactly what YOU are all about. It is not positive.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

65. You tried to derail the thread which was about THIS incident in Nairobi....

....you're clearly not too concerned about it because it didn't happen here. I feel you're the one being the "ugly American".

By the way, I invite you to go back and search my posts to find anything where I have ever defended the gun industry. I find that fucking offensive. Please. I'll wait, go look. Your perceived defense in this one doesn't count because that is in your head. Fuck the NRA and the gun humpers. But this is simply one of the most horrific stories I have heard about in a long time, and just because it happened thousands of miles away on another continent and apparently didn't involve a group that exists in this country doesn't mean I'm not going to care.

[hlthe2b]

66. I certainly DID not.

Your behavior is BEYOND despicable and your attitude toward the dead in this country at the hand of domestic violence--your apathy is beyond discussion.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

67. I'm done with you as well

Whenever you want to offer some sympathy to the victims of THIS incident or give some condemnation of this group's motives, feel free, just as I have many times over right out of the gate in the numerous domestic gun incidents.

[hlthe2b]

68. You really stoop to the lowest level... Your despicable behavior is here for all to see.

Denouncing the lack of response to mass murder in this country does not in any civil or rational person's mind equate to a lack of empathy and sympathy and denunciation for this horrific event, something I have said repeatedly.

Your attitude and attempt to rewrite what I have said is not only disingenuous, but is beyond contempt.

[muriel_volestrangler]

73. As an observer, I just want to tell you your behaviour in this thread has been fine

I'm sure you know that, but I want you to know that everyone else sees that you have said nothing wrong, and we don't see the above exchange as a "both sides are to blame" argument.

[ProudToBeBlueInRhody]

78. Thanks. I always question myself after any contentious exchange I have here on DU.

Not on this occasion, however.

[Niceguy1]

80. proud to be bkue

Has a good point...

[dgibby]

52. Kent State. n/t

[Mojorabbit]

28. Thank you! nt

[dipsydoodle]

4. Red Cross saying at least 15 dead.

That was live on Sky TV News. 18 gunmen still on site.

[Bosonic]

5. Kenya Red Cross official says at least 22 people killed in attack at upscale mall in Nairobi.

BREAKING: Kenya Red Cross official says at least 22 people killed in attack at upscale mall in Nairobi.

https://twitter.com/AP/status/381420626516639744

Multiple attackers, with reports of hostages as well, starting to sound a bit Mumbai-esque

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. Guardian reporting at least 20 dead

At least 20 people have been killed in a suspected terrorist attack in the Kenyan capital of Nairobi after gunmen opened fire and threw grenades in an upmarket shopping centre.

Witnesses said the men, brandishing AK47s, told Muslims to leave and shot those they believed were non-Muslims.

"It is a possibility that it is an attack by terrorists, so we are treating the matter very seriously," Mutea Iringo, the principal secretary in the ministry of interior, told Reuters.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/21/gunmen-kenyan-shopping-centre-nairobi

[davepc]

7. I'm amazed Al-Quida has never tried something like that here.

Just hit two or three malls simultaneously on a busy holiday shopping day (black Friday) and you'd paralyze the country and tank the economy worse then any 9/11.

[carla]

9. One of my concerns

precisely. You can bet such an operation is in the works in some devious, dark and dangerous mind. Imagine peace.

[jessie04]

16. There is no proof this was al-queda.

its amazing how many people want to blame everything on them.

[Comrade Grumpy]

18. Well, it could have been Al Shabaab. That would make more sense.

Although Al Qaeda has famously attacked Kenya before.

But initial reports strongly suggest it is someone with the jihadi ideology.

Poor Al Qaeda. Everybody's always picking on them. I know you think they're doing God's work in Syria.

[jessie04]

22. I didnt say that.

I'm just saying who are we to judge ?

I think its wrong to think one culture or religion is better than another.

[Throd]

24. I'll judge. Some cultures ARE better than others.

[jessie04]

25. I can't believe I'm reading that here.

wow.

[Throd]

29. Why not?

Some cultures don't allow women to drive cars.

So cultures make homosexuality a capital crime.

Some cultures do not allow free expression of religion.

If you need more examples, I have a few thousand of them.

[Posteritatis]

36. Why? If you're active on this site you believe it in the American context. (nt)

[RVN VET]

31. Al Qaeda is a culture?

No, it's not. It's a group of organized murderers who -- all of them -- deserve to be hunted down like rabid raccoons and gutted like squealing pigs.

[Throd]

33. It comes from a culture, same as the Ku Klux Klan.

[Codeine]

75. We're adults with the ability to distinguish right from wrong.

Sometimes judgement is the only appropriate response. All religions are goofy, but some of them are downright fucking evil at times.

[snagglepuss]

26. 'All Muslims leave... we only want to kill non-Muslims': so say witnesses.

[Posteritatis]

17. It's almost like it's not the mighty, wily, world-bestriding colossus the media spins it as. (nt)

[gopiscrap]

50. Welcome to DU

[Faygo Kid]

11. Horrible.

I don't know what else to say. Religion has done terrible things, but why are the Muslims so particularly violent? It goes against their teachings, but we see it again and again.

[seveneyes]

19. It's a valid question

I rarely see any answers as to why that one particular religion is related to horrible mayhem in recent times. I have no answers and would like to hear what "experts" have to say about why.

[RVN VET]

32. Christianity, remember, had a 700 year head start on Islam

It still does terrible things, Christianity does, but for the most part the horrible violence of the Inquisition and Reformation has subsided, and Christian sponsored governmental pogroms are pretty much non-existent these days.

Give Islam another 7 centuries. Maybe it'll come around.

[snagglepuss]

40. That is the dumbest meme in the world. Islam claims to be the

final word from the god of Abraham. The core of their belief is that Islam is PERFECTION. The very fact that it came 700 years after Christ means that god had 700 years to improve the message he had for humanity, thus making Christianty and Judaism obsolete.

[RVN VET]

41. True, if there were a god involved in all of this

And I really doubt there is -- especially if any of the Abrahamic religions are considered.

[jessie04]

42. What ??

You want to blame an entire religion because of a few idiots ?

Islam is a religion of peace.

[seveneyes]

70. Islam is a religion of peace

That is one definition. What needs to be stopped is the teaching that is in place where young minds are brainwashed into thinking it is okay to murder and torture innocents. The Imams or whomever is teaching this hate needs to be stopped by any means.

[MrChaoticAttractor]

71. Islam is a religion of peace?

"Religion of peace" is a classic oxymoron.

[MisterP]

43. well, what are the sources about this supposedly unique violence?

[jessie04]

45. Exactly...its bigoted to criticize their religion.

we shouldn't offend them.

[Codeine]

76. You're not to be taken seriously.

Please stop trolling.

[fujiyama]

44. I view it the opposite way

I think many Muslims (and Christians and Jews) are peaceful, despite the writings of their religious texts.

The Koran and the Hadiths in particular do prescribe second class status for non-Muslims and violence if need be. The Bible is full of similar nasty recommendations for non-believers. And like Christianity, it's also an expansionist ideology of religious supremacism, where either you fall in line or you are a Kafir (Infidel). I suppose, as the other poster said, Christianity has a head start so most of the mass violence committed in its name (Crusades, Inquisition, Spanish Colonialism and genocide of natives) is easier to forget now. Besides, most nations with Christian majorities are secular, with state institutions not imposing any official religion on its citizens and the church taking a back seat to state and civic institutions.

Islam is particularly difficult to reconcile with in the modern world as it is really not just a religion. Many of its followers would say its a way of life. I know plenty of peaceful Muslims who would no doubt condemn these violent acts, but the fact is many would do so only with qualifiers and with hesitation, trying to bring up other non-associated injustices being committed against Muslims.

In majority-Muslim nations in the developing world (which is a majority), it's even messier. The reality is that their piousness has not brought upon material success (or even provided the basics) as their civic institutions have failed them (and the leaders have blamed others for it). Combine that with a repressive attitude toward women, alcohol, and all other pleasures and you have the potential for a lot of rage that explodes in fits of violence.

[philosslayer]

81. Islam is a religion of peace

Your post is offensive.

[JCMach1]

14. Was at Westgate Mall just a few months back...

[cbayer]

15. I have been to that mall.

Last edited Sat Sep 21, 2013, 01:13 PM - Edit history (1)

Security going into shopping malls is pretty tight in Nairobi.

But, this is a very upscale mall in what is otherwise a very impoverished city. I felt ill at ease there when I visited.

I can understand why this particular place may have been targeted.

[JCMach1]

21. Yeah, they use metal detectors and have guards with automatic weapons...

so yeah, must have been overwhelming force...

[cbayer]

23. I'm thinking overwhelming force as well.

The economic disparity was so stark in this mall that I couldn't wait to get out.

I went for lunch, but couldn't even entertain the thought of shopping there.

I felt better in the spice/textile market in Mombasa, where, by the way, I did not feel particularly comfortable either. I was with a small group of other american women and, again, the economic contrasts were so striking.

Kenya changed me forever and I am so glad that I went.

[JCMach1]

57. We were targeted for attack during our Tribal Wedding ceremony

my Father-in-law was nearly killed by armed attackers... As an American as a rule, I kept a very, very low-profile there. It was impossible with the ceremony.

Westgate was very high-end. Went there last Christmas Eve to get a few last-minute things. We bought some cute kids things for our son at a small shop right at the entrance to the mall. If it had been today, I wouldn't be writing this.

[cbayer]

61. Wow! That must have been terrifying.

I also kept a very low profile. I felt my overwhelming privilege the moment I stepped off the plane and never felt without it the entire time I was there.

I loved it, though, and hope to go back some day.

Do you live in Kenya now?

[jberryhill]

64. Have they gotten to the bottom of the airport fire?

[JCMach1]

69. Not as far as I know...

last I heard, the needle was pointing to extremely negligence and incompetence...

[Bosonic]

27. Al Shabab confirms to Al Jazeera that it has claimed responsibility for the Westgate mall attack

Al Shabab confirms to Al Jazeera that it has claimed responsibility for the Westgate mall attack in #Nairobi #Kenya

https://twitter.com/AJELive/status/381474014176485376

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Shabaab_%28militant_group%29

[Comrade Grumpy]

38. That makes sense. They have a bone to pick with the Kenyans.

http://www.economist.com/node/21534828

Kenya invaded Somalia in October 2011 to "inflict trauma and damage" on Al Shabab.

Al Shabab returns the favor.

[JI7]

72. Kenya joined Somalia in going after Al Shabab

they did not "invade" Somalia . there were other nations involved also.

but it wasn't an invasion by kenya on somalia.

[Comrade Grumpy]

77. What do you call it when your army enters another country to fight?

A peace-keeping operation?

[JI7]

82. when they are joined by soldiers of that country to go after terrorists like al shabab

yes

[muriel_volestrangler]

83. That's what is it called now, by the African Union

The Kenyan government on Tuesday approved the African Union's request for Kenya Defence Forces (KDF) to join the AU Peacekeeping Mission in Somalia (AMISOM) as part of the pan African body's strategy to combat Al-Shabaab.

A statement issued in Nairobi after a Cabinet meeting which was chaired by President Mwai Kibaki said the move is subject to Parliamentary approval.

"The Cabinet that met under the chairmanship of President Mwai Kibaki at State House, Nairobi, also approved the re-hatting of the Kenya Defense Forces in Somalia to AMISOM, subject to approval by parliament," the statement said.

The east African nation which launched incursion in Somalia mid October committed to the Intergovernmental Authority on Development (IGAD) Heads of States Summit in Addis Ababa in November its willingness to join the 9000-strong AMISOM force.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2011-12/07/content_14225808.htm

Before that, it was conducting its military operations in conjunction with the internationally recognised government of Somalia - who did not control much of the country, especially at times, but still weren't as bad as al-Shabab.

[Bosonic]

30. AFP: Red Cross says 30 people have been killed and 60 people wounded in attack

AFP: Red Cross says 30 people have been killed and 60 people wounded in an attack on an upmarket shopping mall in Nairobi in Kenya

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/381474882766536704

[Bosonic]

34. U.S. State Department says Americans have reportedly been injured in 'senseless' Nairobi attack

Last edited Sat Sep 21, 2013, 04:33 PM - Edit history (1)

U.S. State Department says Americans have reportedly been injured in 'senseless' #Nairobi attack

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/381477574553374721


Foreign Secretary William Hague says there are undoubtedly British nationals caught up in "callous, cowardly and brutal" attack in Nairobi

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/381506111310135296

[Glimmer of Hope]

37. These pictures from the Post capture the horror.

[link:http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/gunmen-attack-shopping-mall-in-nairobi-kenya/2013/09/21/079fa144-22df-11e3-b73c-aab60bf735d0_gallery.html|

[RebelOne]

46. Another link with lots of photos.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2427892/Nairobi-mall-Gunmen-massacred-22-Kenyan-shopping-centre-targeted-non-Islamics.html

[Bosonic]

47. 39 dead, 150 wounded in Kenya mall attack

BREAKING 39 dead, 150 wounded in Kenya mall attack

https://twitter.com/AFP/status/381512155553480704


BREAKING: Kenya president says 39 people killed, 150 wounded in mall attack; he lost family members

https://twitter.com/AP/status/381516847268790274

[Bosonic]

48. Al-Shabab holds hostages in Kenya mall siege

Armed Somali group al-Shabab has claimed responsibility for the attack and ongoing siege of an upscale shopping mall in the Kenyan capital of Nairobi that has left at least 30 people dead and 50 injured.

...

Al Jazeera's Catherine Wambua-Soi, reporting from Nairobi, said there are reports of an uknown number of hostages being held.

"We're told that they're holding hostages... it's very difficult for the police and military because they are battling with gunmen who are holding hostages, and who are using these hostages as human shields," she said.

"What we're being told is that these gunmen have been isolated in one room and they're surrounded by police and military and other intelligence services," said our correspondent, adding that the attackers were wearing bullet-proof vests.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/africa/2013/09/2013921174856564470.html

[tblue]

53. I know 2 people who were there!

One got facial injuries, the other is unhurt. How scary. The injured woman I believe didn't need to be hospitalized. She just moved there a few weeks ago. I hate guns. I hate violence. They were minding their own freaking business, and then this happened.

[Faygo Kid]

56. So sorry for your friends.

This is just horrific stuff. This small blue planet should do better than we have done together.

[JCMach1]

58. Glad your friends are okay... so far it seems our peeps in Nairobi weren't at the Mall today

[gopiscrap]

55. Yikes

[JCMach1]

74. Siege at Kenyan Mall Continues as Death Toll Reaches 59

... Mr. Kenyatta said that more than 1,000 people had been rescued from the mall at the time of the attack, calling it “remarkable and encouraging.” But the death toll from the militant assault on the crowded Westgate mall the day before continued to rise, climbing to 59. Among them were Mr. Kenyatta’s nephew and his fiancée, he said in his speech.

“These are young, lovely people I personally knew and loved. Many of us have lost loved ones,” Mr. Kenyatta said. “Let us mourn them all as one nation and keep them always in remembrance and prayer.”

Joseph Ole Lenku, the cabinet secretary for the interior, said on Sunday that the number of wounded had risen to 175, though many had been treated and discharged. “Overnight more people were evacuated from the mall, but a number still remain,” he said. “The government will go out of its way to make sure we do not lose lives.”

A huge contingent of Kenyan security forces kept the mall cordoned off Sunday, but officials confirmed that many attackers — between 10 and 15, according to Mr. Lenku — were still inside and active, and that an uncertain number of bystanders remained trapped or in hiding. ... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/23/world/africa/nairobi-mall-shooting.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0