Amanda Knox retrial begins Monday in Italy

[Recursion]

Source: Fox News (sorry)

The retrial of American student Amanda Knox and her Italian ex-boyfriend for the 2007 murder of a British student will begin Monday in Florence, the latest chapter in a lengthy and complicated legal saga.

Knox has repeatedly denied playing any role in the death of Meredith Kercher, who was found with her throat cut in the house the two women shared when both were exchange students studying in Perugia, Italy.

Knox has refused to be present at the retrial, citing the desire not to relive the experience of being imprisoned for a crime she says she didn't commit, as well as the financial strain and commitments of school. Her former lover, Raffaelle Sollecito, is not expected to be in court Monday, though his lawyer has told Sky News he would attend later hearings.

Knox and Sollecito were convicted of the killings by a lower court in 2009, but their convictions were quashed two years later on appeal. The appeals court cited weaknesses in the DNA evidence in letting the two go free. However, last year, Italy's supreme court overturned the appeal court's acquittal in March, citing "shortcomings, contradictions and inconsistencies" in the ruling.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/09/30/amanda-knox-retrial-begins-monday-in-italy/

---

1. Sorry, Fox just had the best write-up at this moment.

2. A friend of mine was her consular officer during the first trial; this caused the State Department no end of headaches

3. If there's no CR deal, she won't have access to consular services during the start of the trial, which may cause yet another mistrial

[pnwmom]

1. This will be her fourth trial. What a travesty.

There was her first trial, dominated by a lot of hot air about the sex-game-gone-wrong theory, which was eventually rejected by the trial judge, though he found her guilty . . . just because.

There was the appeals trial, where the judge determined that there was no motive, no physical evidence, and no sober witness to her presence at the crime scene -- and he found Amanda and Raffaele innocent. But that wasn't the end of it. (Even though a an unrelated defendant, Rudy Guede, in a separate trial was found guilty after he left his DNA, fingerprints, and shoe prints all over the murder victim's room, and his DNA inside and outside her body and purse.)

Then there was the High Court trial, which ruled that they want to hear more about the sex-game-gone-wrong theory, since there was no actual evidence presented about it before and Amanda and Raffaele looked like the kind of people who might be doing bad sexy things. They also ruled that the defense hadn't PROVED that there was only one murderer -- Rudy Guede -- maybe there was more than one, so obviously that means Amanda and Raffaele probably did it.

And now there is a new appeals trial and -- whatever happens in it -- then there will be another High Court trial. At which point the High Court could decide to send it back for a 6th trial at the appeals level, if they wanted to. Theoretically, there could be a never ending string of trials. It's only been six years, they've only just begun.

This is the same country that has convicted several PHD Geologists of manslaughter because they didn't predict the 2009 earthquake and correctly said that smaller tremors can't be used to predict big earthquakes. Oh well. Too bad for them! This is Italy, after all, where geologists have to be able to predict earthquakes and forensic pathologists don't have to protect their work against contamination. It's up to the defense to prove when and where and how contamination occurred, not up to the pathologist to show they took proper precautions. To say anything else is just illogical and unreasonable, if you're an Italian High Court judge.

[Recursion]

2. All good points

Serving in other countries makes you come to appreciate the American judicial system, for all its flaws.

[pnwmom]

3. Apparently Italian courts have a well-deserved reputation as among the worst in Europe. n/t

[davidpdx]

12. My guess after this round if it goes all the way to the top

the courts are going to say enough is enough. That would be six trials at the cost of who knows how much to Italy. Even if they somehow managed to convict her (which I can't see how they can with what little evidence they have) they will never get their hands on her. The Italian courts kind of remind me of the Republicans in the US.

[pnwmom]

14. It already went all the way to the top, and they sent it back down again.

If they don't like this next ruling, they can call for another appeals trial until they get a ruling they like.

It's a pretty crazy system if you care about little things like justice.

[davidpdx]

16. Yeah I know

I've been following her case very closely almost since the beginning. I have a copy of her book in a .pdf file (wink,wink).

It has to get resolved this time around. The original crazy-ass prosecutor isn't involved in this one. My guess is it may get to the top, but it won't get overturned this time.

[Sissyk]

40. Excellent analysis of the trials!

The system that Italy has, makes you think twice before scheduling an extended stay.

The good thing? She is in the United States.

[pnwmom]

61. Yeah, but poor Raffaele is stuck. And he's already spent 4 years in prison for the crime

of not lying about her.

[gopiscrap]

59. I agree

[inch4progress]

4. I'm assuming the U.S. wouldn't extradite her, regardless of the results of the retrial, right?

[ForgoTheConsequence]

6. Stuck where?

She's in the United States.

[pnwmom]

7. Many observers think they won't, but it isn't clear what will happen. However,

her co-defendent, Raffaele Sollecito, is just as innocent as she is and he's an Italian citizen. They tried to coerce him into falsely testifying against her, and he went to prison for four years because he wouldn't comply. I wish there was some way he could be helped because he's a hero, in my opinion, and he could spend the rest of his life in prison unless he gives them the testimony they want.

[inch4progress]

9. I didn't follow this at all.

Why do you think he is a hero? I apologize for my complete ignorance of the case.

[pnwmom]

10. No need to apologize. Thank you for asking.

The more people who are informed, the better. They both might need our support someday.

(Here's a reliable site: injusticeinperugia.org -- in case you want to know more.)

First, there is no evidence either of them were involved in the murder. From the beginning the police had pegged Amanda and her new boyfriend Raffaele for the murder because Amanda was a roommate of the murdered girl and the other roommates were out of town. They also decided that Amanda's boss Patrick must have been in on it because she had called him that night on her cell phone and said "see you later" and "goodnight." (And he was black and they mistook a clothing fiber in the victim's hand for a black person's hair.) There was the problem, however, that neither Amanda, Raffaele, or Amanda's boss had had any blood on their clothing, so the police decided they must have been naked when knifing Meredith to death -- hence the interesting theory of a "sex game gone wrong." (They also sustained no cuts or bruises in this fight to the death. Details, details, who cares, right?)

They interrogated Amanda for several days without a lawyer. Her alibi was the same as Raffaele's. They weren't in the girls' cottage where the murder occurred. They were across town in Raffaele's apartment, smoking pot and watching a movie. Finally, in the middle of the night, the police got her to "imagine" what "could" have happened if she had been there when her boss killed Meredith (as they were insisting he did). She finally broke down and said she could imagine covering her ears in the kitchen while the boss murdered Meredith. A few hours later, she wrote out a new statement saying that she'd only said that because they insisted her boss had murdered Meredith, and it didn't feel true. But they had her --they had that first statement, which they called a "confession." So they announced they had the killers -- Amanda, her boss, and Raffaele-- case closed. Unfortunately, then the lab evidence came back and ALL of it was connected with a whole different person -- Rudy Guede, another black man and a known burglar who had used a knife in previous burglaries. Oops. And then it turned out that the boss had a rock-solid alibi. Double oops.

So the prosecution simply swapped the boss for the burglar, but left Amanda and Raffaele in the sex-game-gone-wrong scenario (even though Raffaele had never met the burglar before, and the burglar didn't speak English) . They argued (successfully, in the first trial and unsuccessfully in the appeal) that Amanda and Raffaele must have met Rudy Guede and decided to hang out and make Meredith have a murderous orgy that night. Then, after the murder, Amanda and Raffaele washed all their invisible DNA and fingerprints out of the room and only left Rudy Guede's. (This would be impossible, of course, in the non-magical world, but hey, this is Italy, where anything can happen.) In addition, there was no motive put forth, and no witnesses except for a homeless heroin addict who had conveniently been available to testify for the police in at least two other murders. Unfortunately for the prosecution, he got the dates all mixed up. Another oops.

Why do I think Raffaele was a hero? Because while they were interrogating Amanda, and hitting her, and trying to make her "remember" a murder she couldn't remember, they were also hitting Raffaele, the doctor's son, and trying to get him to lie and say that Amanda had left his apartment during the night. And they were offering to let him off if he did. They were successful in finally (after a year) getting the burglar to make up a story about Amanda and Raffaele, and he then got his sentence reduced from 30 years to 16 (which will become 8 with time off for good behavior). But they couldn't get Raffaele to crack. So he spent four years in prison till the appeals court ruled that there was NO EVIDENCE against them and they were INNOCENT. (Not just, "not guilty.&quot But the prosecution appealed, and a year or so later the High Court ruled there would have to be a new appeal, so Amanda and Raffale could be sentenced to prison again -- maybe for life, as the prosecution is asking.

[inch4progress]

11. While I'm reading this, looking at photos online, one thing keeps running through my head

Is this "Berlusconis" Italy? I'm sure you know he pretty much controlled what people have watched on tv for quite a while, theres actually a documentary about it "Videocracy".

And of course Italian police would never EVER BEAT UP A DEFENSELESS GIRL...................................

After a 9-hour debate, the Italian Supreme Court has issued its final sentence against the 25 defendants – policemen and heads of security forces – responsible for the violence against the activists sleeping in the Diaz school during the G8 summit in Genoa in 2001. Result: most of the charges have been declared time-barred, leading to impunity for all the people involved. In the meantime, 10 activists are facing a total of 100 years of jail between themselves for crimes of “devastation and looting”.

Most of the criminal offences with which officers had been charged, including those of serious bodily harm, have been declared time-barred and therefore void. Torture is not even a crime on the books of Italy’s domestic legislation, therefore officers have never been charged with it. The only charge miraculously within the statute of limitations – that of fabricating false evidence – won’t have any major consequences thanks to the prison amnesty approved in 2006 for this type of crimes.
http://libcom.org/news/final-sentences-police-forces-involved-diaz-school-butchery-2001-g8-summit-genoa-08072012

BTW Thanks much for taking the time to give me a VERY comprehensive answer.

[pnwmom]

13. Yeah, unfortunately for her, he took her side - but he was on his way down.

So she and Raffaele have been caught up in Italian politics on top of everything else. It didn't help them that he was using their case to complain about the judicial system that was also going after him.

http://groundreport.com/why-the-italian-judicial-circus-wont-let-go-of-amanda-knox/

In May 2011, in the midst of the appeal, as DNA testing of critical items of evidence was being exposed as flawed and unreliable, 11 lawmakers from Prime Minister Berlusconi’s center-right coalition petitioned the Justice Ministry to investigate the prosecution’s handling of the case. They requested that inspectors be sent into the offices of the magistrates in Perugia for that purpose. It was no secret that certain members of that party had been seeking to limit the power of a judiciary they considered too independent and answerable to no one.

Following the Supreme Court’s annulment of the appellate court’s verdict in March of 2013, Judge Hellmann gave an interview with the Italian newspaper La Stampa, in which he stated that he was not surprised by the annulment because the party of the prosecutor (different from the center-right coalition) had strong influence in the judiciary. The judge, by then retired, challenged anyone to take responsibility for convicting two innocent people, or to demonstrate there existed evidence to convict them.

It seems evident that Knox and Sollecito are not so much suspects in a murder conspiracy as pawns in Italy’s political games, caught between squabbling political factions and branches of government. Even so, the two hope to be acquitted again, as there exists no reliable evidence upon which to convict them. Unfortunately, the outcome of the re-trial may depend on the political allegiance of the appointed judges.

Author’s Note: I am a retired veteran Senior Trial Counsel with the U.S. Department of Justice.

[inch4progress]

17. Jeesh, the guy who "dumbed down and sensationalized Italy" was on her side

capitalizing on her victimization to support his crimes. Wow, what a $%^&.

I really can't help but feel bad for everyone involved, unfortunately, even the police. Wasn't Berlusconi responsible for creating the police state?

On 24 January 2009, Berlusconi announced his aim to increase the numbers of military patrolling the Italian cities from 3,000 to 30,000 in order to crack down on what he called an "evil army" of criminals. Responding to a female journalist who asked him if this tenfold increase in patrolling soldiers would be enough to secure Italian women from being raped, he said: "We could not field a big enough force to avoid this risk [of rape]. We would need as many soldiers as beautiful women and I don't think that would be possible, because our women are so beautiful." Opposition leaders called the remarks insensitive and in bad taste. Berlusconi retorted that he had merely wanted to compliment Italian women. Other critics accused him of creating a "police state".[84]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversies_surrounding_Silvio_Berlusconi

It seems the necessity of the increased police presence may have been over hyped.

Italy is also a country with lower rates of rape than most other nations of the Western world. It has the 46th highest per-capita rate of rape in the world meaning that Italian women are 7 times safer than American women. Similarly, Italy has a lower per capita rate of rape than most of the advanced Western countries in the European Union.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_Italy

Ya know, I gotta make a joke, but I almost feel like If i keep digging into this some burly guy is gonna show up at my door soon . But seriously, this case has more holes than sieve.

[pnwmom]

27. What a creep. And then there is the creepy prosecutor.

Doesn't make me want to go to Italy any time soon.

[inch4progress]

30. Thats for sure, unfortunately, I want to visit Rome again REALLLLLLLY BAD.

I'm going to wait until things settle down a bit. That area is awash with frustration directed at the bankers who control(destroyed) the economy with occasional bouts of riots and anarchy. I don't think Italy is as bad as Greece, but it's likely to get worse than it is.

[wyldwolf]

21. "I see the Knox propaganda machine never rests" says the one post poster

Who obviously joined to spread her own propaganda.

[pnwmom]

23. Amazing that whoever that was was so quick to jump on my late-night post.

Felt compelled to register here and everything. Wow.

The haters are out there.

[wyldwolf]

50. Just bizarre how she even found the post.

[pnwmom]

52. They are everywhere, repeating themselves with the same talking points,

whenever a new article is posted on the web. I wonder if they could have a computer program for doing that?

[wyldwolf]

53. Possibly - I knew I guy who wrote a PHP script that signed up then spammed 1000s of bravenet boards

What made me notice her post here was that fact she said because Knox has a promiscuous past, that was reason for retrial. At least, that is how I interpreted her diatribe.

[pnwmom]

54. If you were the one who alerted, thanks! n/t

[mainer]

22. excellent wrapup. You covered all the pertinent facts.

I too have been following this. A good read as background is Monster of Florence by Doug Preston, about another case this same prosecutor has abused.

[pnwmom]

24. Yes, I read that. It IS good background on the prosecutor, who is a monster. nt

[pnwmom]

15. It's not certain. Fortunately, Maria Cantwell has been a strong supporter.

She's hosting a panel discussion on the case in Congress one day this week, with FBI agents and other experts.

[inch4progress]

18. NOT SEQUESTERED?????? Her support is EXTREMELY justifiable!

Senator Cantwell’s statement:

“I am saddened by the verdict and I have serious questions about the Italian justice system and whether anti-Americanism tainted this trial. The prosecution did not present enough evidence for an impartial jury to conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that Ms. Knox was guilty. Italian jurors were not sequestered and were allowed to view highly negative news coverage about Ms. Knox. Other flaws in the Italian justice system on display in this case included the harsh treatment of Ms. Knox following her arrest; negligent handling of evidence by investigators; and pending charges of misconduct against one of the prosecutors stemming from another murder trial.



I am in contact with the U.S. Ambassador to Italy and have been since the time of Ms. Knox’s arrest. I will be conveying my concerns to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. I have also been in touch with the Embassy of Italy in Washington, DC.
http://www.cantwell.senate.gov/news/record.cfm?id=320475

[pnwmom]

25. Not only were they not sequestered -- they weren't even told to avoid the news. And EVEN WORSE

the same jurors heard evidence in a civil trial against Amanda that took place at the same time. And in the civil trial, evidence was allowed to be introduced (such as the false, attorney-free non-confession) that was BANNED from the criminal trial. So the jurors were supposed to consider the evidence in the civil trial but pretend they hadn't heard it for the criminal trial.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

49. It's not like in the U.S. Jurors are not 'peers.' Some are judges; other are 'civilian' jurors.

I repeat, this is not like in the U.S. This is essentially the same trial - there's no such thing as 'double jeopardy.' She and Raffaele Sollecito are being tried again because the highest court deemed several critical things were wrong with the first trial and the subsequent appeal. Essentially, this is the same trial - just another phase of it, but still the same thing.

Once again, the prosecutor Mignini is not involved nor has he been involved in quite some time. Additionally, Mignini was not the sole prosecutor. In Italy, there are several prosecutors involved in trials, not just one. To say that this is Mignini's little vendetta against a doe-eyed pretty American girl (never mind that the other two parties are an Italian man and an Ivory Coast man) is ridiculous, considering Mignini had other prosecutors with him and he was not involved in the appeals, nor is he involved in the current trial which is handled by the prosecution in Florence. The book authored in part by Douglas Preston on the Monster of Florence is also very one-sided and hardly unbiased and objective.

I have plenty of problems with the way the justice system in Italy works, but let's at least have an honest discussion that is free of U.S.-bias.

Lest we forget, Ms. Knox accused a poor immigrant of being involved in the homicide. This poor guy lost his job, his business and reputation. To this day, Ms. Knox has never really explained why she got Mr. Lumumba (who gave her a job) involved and what her rationale was.

The versions of events that have been provided in the U.S. media are very one-sided and lack objectiveness. I am not saying that Ms. Knox is guilty and/or participated in the homicide of Ms. Kercher, but what I am saying, however, is that assuming she is innocent simply because she's American is totally absurd.

There are three parties involved in the trial: the prosecution, the defense and the victim's counsel. Just today, several new forensic examinations have been ordered, including the DNA examination of the blood found on the knife, as requested by the prosecution.

[pnwmom]

51. Amanda fully explained how Lumumba became involved.

The police were looking for a black man because there was a black fiber in Meredith's hand that they thought was a black person's hair. Amanda worked for a black man, and on her cell phone that night she had texted him: "see you later. goodnight."

So after several days of interrogations, in the middle of the night, deprived of food, water, and an attorney, and being hit on the head amidst a tag team of 12 interrogators, and told she had to remember, she finally broke down and complied with their demand that she "imagine" how Patrick might have killed Meredith. She said all she could imagine was that she had been in the kitchen covering up her ears while he killed her in the other room. (Neither the interrogation or her "confession" were taped, although the room contained all necessary equipment for doing so.) Then, a few hours later, after some sleep, she wrote another statement in which she said that she didn't think the previous statement was true.

But with regard to the OP, can you justify not testing for DNA in the sperm sample found on the pillow underneath the victim's body?

[dipsydoodle]

19. Odd they refer to it as a retrial - its an appeal against a conviction of guilt

the Supreme Court of Cassation having found the result of the last appeal to have been flawed

[pnwmom]

26. No. It's a retrial. The first conviction was thrown out by the appeals court,

which ruled that there was no evidence proving their guilt, and that they were innocent. (Not just "not guilty.&quot

Then the High Court ruled that the appeals court should look again. They didn't reinstate the first verdict, however. One possible end result is that the new appeals court could decide that they were not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt rather than "innocent" since both are options in Italy.

By the way, under the Italian system about half of all first level convictions are thrown out on appeal. They have a very loose standard of guilt at the first level.

[dipsydoodle]

41. The Court of Cassation overturned the acquittal

so currrently it as though it never took place leaving the guilty verdict standing for the time being pending the outcome of a new trial. Its an easy subject to search.

[pnwmom]

43. That's what you'll find if you search the guilter sites.

But it's not true.

[dipsydoodle]

45. By "guilter" sites I assume you mean Associated Press, Reuters , The Guardian

in fact most news sources.

[pnwmom]

46. Do you have a specific link? nt

[dipsydoodle]

47. See :

ROME (AP) — Italy's highest criminal court ordered a whole new trial for Amanda Knox and her former Italian boyfriend on Tuesday, overturning their acquittals in the gruesome slaying of her British roommate. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/italy-high-court-overturns-knox-acquittal

Italy's highest appeal court has ordered a fresh trial in the case of the murder of British student Meredith Kercher, overturning the acquittals of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito and paving the way for a potential extradition tussle between Italy and the US. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/26/amanda-knox-retrial-meredith-kercher-murder.

For Reuters see cross reference here : NBC News' Chapman Bell, The Associated Press and Reuters contributed to this report.
Italy's highest court ordered a new trial for Knox and her former Italian boyfriend, overturning their acquittals in the 2007 slaying of Meredith Kercher with a harsh assessment of an appeals court acquittal in 2011. The Court of Cassation said the acquittal was full of "deficiencies, contradictions and illogical" conclusions. http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20752388-amanda-knox-is-a-no-show-as-new-trial-for-murder-begins-in-italy?lite

All say : "overturning their acquittals" With the acquittals overturned last standing verdict remains that of guilty. That's not an opinion - just a statement of fact.

[pnwmom]

48. But the original verdict was NOT still standing. It had already been overturned

and remains overturned. That is why they're having a whole new trial and calling it a "re-trial" and adding in new evidence.

The whole system is different than it is here.

[dipsydoodle]

55. The current trial is referred to as the second appeal.

The second trial was the first appeal. The result of the first trial was overturned by the first appeal but that has been declared void by the Court of Cassation.

So - only this new appeal can now overturn the original conviction.

It is anticpated this could go on almost forever.

[pnwmom]

56. You're right -- technically there is no limit to the number of appeals

because the High Court can keep restarting the process until it agrees with a verdict.

[dipsydoodle]

57. This is complicated by the use of different terminology in both counties.

I found this which refers to the last trial :

Under Italian law, appeals amount to a new trial and the couple’s appeal trial began on November 24, 2010. On October 3, 2011, both Knox and Sollecito were acquitted after the court had doubts about the reliability of the DNA evidence. The court ordered they be released from jail, at which point Knox flew back to the United States where she is currently attending the University of Washington in Seattle.

http://www.decodedscience.com/amanda-knox-appeals-double-jeopardy-and-extradition/27628

As far as I'm aware in the US and certainly here in the UK "appeals" are simply referred to as that and not "trials"

Yes - a guilty verdict on appeal can be appealed too

[grantcart]

28. Why would she need consular services sitting in the US.

[Recursion]

29. Because it's still a trial

She still has lawyers there and somebody should be representing US interests.

[grantcart]

31. Consular Services don't provide lawyers and don't get involved in

US citizens individual legal cases. As someone who lived overseas for 20 years and worked closely with consular services and was involved in legal actions I have some experience in it.

They will provide a list of attorneys and give general their viewpoint on the legal process that the citizen is likely to face.

If US citizens face discrimination in the system they will make representations to the government, but that is simply based on the principle that US citizens should be treated as others in the system.

Beyond assisting the US citizen getting in touch with a local attorney the government has little or no involvement in any individual legal action overseas.

Also government shutdowns don't affect consular services

Embassies and consulates overseas would continue to provide services to American citizens.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/sep/29/us-government-shutdown-services-affected

[Recursion]

32. US shutdowns will affect consular services this time

Guess where I work?

[grantcart]

37. You work for the federal governmetn. Unfortunately you don't

seem to have a very good grasp of what consular functions are as you apparently think that consular services include getting involved in individual legal cases, which they don't. Also its rather strange to think that an American citizen in the US would need access to consular services.

The State Department has said that consular services will continue:

http://www.state.gov/m/rls/2013/214880.htm

Departmental entities will continue operating using residual balances in multi-year and no-year appropriations, trust funds, other permanent appropriations, and the Working Capital Fund until these funds are insufficient to continue

. . .

B. Chief of Mission (COM) Authority regarding other U.S. Government Agency Employees Overseas: Under a lapse of appropriations, each U.S. Government agency at post must determine which positions meet the criteria of "excepted" in the absence of appropriations. (As indicated in Chapter 1, if the Department determines that it will pay the salary of a U.S. citizen employee from appropriations that have not lapsed, e.g., an appropriation has been enacted or no-year funds are available, that employee may continue to work.) If an agency has determined that certain of its positions overseas do not meet those criteria, and that determination conflicts with the views of the Chief of Mission, then the Chief of Mission should attempt to resolve the matter directly with the parent agency concerned. Based on COM authority and the Department's foreign affairs responsibilities, the COMs and Department's judgment about what functions constitute the conduct of foreign relations essential to national security carries great weight. If the COM is unable to reach agreement with another agency on what functions should continue to be performed during a lapse of appropriations, the COM may refer the matter to Washington to see if the Department can reach an accommodation with the other agency.

The COM will be responsible for informing the Principal Officers of other agencies at post immediately upon notification by OMB that we are to implement shutdown procedures.

C. Consular Operations Domestically and Overseas: Consular operations domestically and overseas will remain 100% operational as long as there are sufficient fees to support operations. However, if a passport agency is located in a government building affected by a lapse in appropriations, the facility may become unsupported. The continuance of consular operations in such instances will be treated on a case-by-case basis by the Under Secretary for Management.

The revenue from fees won't be exhausted immediately.

In any case consular functions that affect the imprisonment of an American citizen will still be excepted and intact

A. Definition of Excepted Functions: “Excepted" functions that may be continued in an absence of appropriations include those necessary for emergencies involving "the safety of human life or the protection of property," and those necessary for activities essential to national security, including the conduct of foreign affairs essential to national security. Employees performing "excepted" functions will continue to report to work and perform their duties.

Emails have already been sent out to federal employees on their status. IF Consular officers were to be classified as non essential and non excepted they would have already received their memo. Here, for example, is the one that the government sent out to Border Patrol Agents:

In the event a shutdown occurs all non-essential employees will not be allowed to work. All essential personnel will be required to work. All leave will be canceled, and if an essential employee takes any type of leave during the furlough he will considered to be on furlough and it will be unknown as to whether he will be allowed to return to work during the furlough. During the furlough you will not be paid, but will be paid when the furlough is over.

Essential personnel is considered to be all Border Patrol Agents, Mechanics, and LECAs. Mission Support, Seized Property Specialists, Paralegals, LER, Sector Counsel, are non essential employees and will be furlough. I was told that we are to watch the news to see if there is a government shutdown, because if there is a shutdown the non-essential employees will have no-one to tell them to stay home. For essential employees just go to work as normal.

So if you work for the part of the government that you intimate then please cut and paste the announcement that consular officers are both not essential and not excepted.

[Recursion]

38. I work at a consulate, and ACS will in fact suffer

We'll furlough 3 of our 5 ACS officers here at least. Is Italy somehow immune?

[grantcart]

42. lol you don't seem to have a very good grasp of the terms involved.

Are you stating that you have received documentation that consular services related to emergency consular services for legal protection will not be provided at "your consulate" and that these are being classified as both "non essential" and "not excepted" consular services. If there is any affect (not yet clear) they would include non essential services (like attending the local US Chamber of Commerce luncheon) but not cover services classified "essential" and "excepted" (assisting an expat facing legal detention).

In any case if you are a US government employee you would have already received the email detailing what services are covered and not covered, as I have done for example with the Border Patrol. Why not cut the BS and simply cut and paste the official instruction that the State Department has already sent out, if you are in fact a federal employee?

[grantcart]

64. For 6 months I was the de facto consular officer for the US for Vietnam

They didn't have an Embassy and all of the visa applications for family members were sent to Bangkok but they had their hands full with Thai applications.

Due to budget restrictions they could not hire additional staff. I worked for an Intergovernmental Committee and everything I did was 100% reimburseable back to the USG but under unrestricted refugee funds. So I suggested I hire and 28 Thai secretaries who would go through the boxes and we simply created lists. When we started moving them from Vietnam they brought in the officers and my secretarial pool moved over to the Embassy. When I left that and was a CEO in a corporation I was involved in a number of high profile legal actions, both criminal and civil. Just as background on my fairly close working with consulates. I also worked with consulates in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia and the routines was all the same.

Your statement on the scope of legal involvement that the State Department extends to Americans overseas is not consistent with standard practices and once Knox had effective legal representation the consulate basically has no involvement.

As for your "inside information" on consulate shutting down, this is also not accurate. As cited above, and partly because of the last shutdown, most passport and consular services are supported by fees outside the budget. The media is now confirming the notice I posted from the State Department up thread. Here is the one from ABC News:

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/10/good-news-for-travelers-you-can-still-get-a-passport-contact-embassies-despite-government-shutdown/

For Americans at home and those traveling out of the country, consular services will continue. If you need something from a U.S. embassy, the State Department says you’ll be able to get it.

Not only will embassies and consulates remain open, they won’t staff down immediately, either. Because the State Department has leftover money in some of its accounts, embassies and consulates will remain fully operational as long as that money is left. State Department officials said they weren’t sure exactly how long it will last.

[pnwmom]

34. The consulate could get involved if they felt that Amanda wasn't being treated properly

according to Italy's own laws.

[grantcart]

36. Could get involved but their main involvement would be to get access to an attorney.

But if they determined that Italy's laws were being used in the same way as it was against others they wouldn't get involved.

If they did get involved they wouldn't send a full time observer to a trial they would make a representation to the government.

Basically the consulate sees its job as making sure that the citizen has access to legal representation. In this case the citizen isn't even in Italy.

[pnwmom]

33. If they find her guilty, she'd never be able to travel to another country

with an extradition treaty, even if the US did refuse to extradite her.

Plus, she is subject to civil trials for damages in the millions, which could follow her all her life. If she's found not guilty in the criminal, that could help her with those, too.

[grantcart]

39. She would be wise not to travel if she was found guilty in abstentia

But extradition isn't automatic even if you have an extradition treaty.

For example you correctly judge that there is little likelihood that any US court would extradite her given that she has already had her conviction set aside under adverse conditions.

The same would be true for any other country. For her to be extradited it would require that the Government of Italy would press the extradition request (and not some idiot local prosecutor which is the case here) and that they would prevail.

Extradition isn't automatic as the Polanski trial proved again.

[Bragi]

35. What's the best book on the Amanda Knox case?

Someone recently gave me a copy of "A Death in Italy" by John Follain. It looks pretty good to me, but before investing time in it, I would like to ask any out there who have read about this case if there is a more definitive book out there, or does this one cover it all pretty well?

(Here's the book I have now, FYI: http://www.amazon.com/dp/1250024242 It gets mixed reviews.)

[pnwmom]

44. His book is a favorite of the "guilters"

because he allows them to spread their opinions freely.

If you want to learn some more for free, the best web site is injusticeinperugia.com.

With regard to books I think "The Fatal Gift of Beauty" by Nina Burleigh is a good way into the case. She assumed Amanda was guilty, but changed her mind after arriving in Italy and digging into the case.

And Amanda Knox's own book, Waiting to be Heard, is very thorough and detailed -- and, like Burleigh's, highly readable.


Here is what one poster had to say about Follain. I'm quoting him not because he's a big expert but because I think he explained Follain's technique well. I'd just add that Follain wrote almost all of the book before the appeals court came back with the not guilty verdict, so it doesn't take that into account.

The poster below is another person who started off as a "guilter" but changed his mind as he learned more and more about the case.

http://forums.randi.org/showthread.php?t=256373&page=240

It's the ultimate of confirmation bias. It's like reading John Follain's, "A Death in Italy," where the subtext of almost every line he writes is, "She did it." And the strange thing is that if you strip out the sub-text from Follain's book, he pretty much convinces the reader that neither Knox nor Sollecito did this thing - but that Mignini, Comodi, The Kerchers, the British friends and Maresca are all convinced she did.

Why? Well - if Follain expressed an opinion in the book his face would fall off. Rather than expressing an opinion he lets his brilliant subtexts do the talk. Example #1 of that is when Follain has postal policeman Battistelli say about Filomena's room, "This is no burglary," Follain inserts a line: Amanda and Raffaele say nothing.

The subtext? Amanda and Raffaele know why it's no burglary.

[Bragi]

62. Thanks for that! /nt

[smirkymonkey]

58. I am currently reading the Candace Dempsey

book on the subject and in addition to being highly readable, it contains a thorough account of pertinent facts about the evidence, the biases against Amanda and the other individuals involved. I would recommend it.

[pnwmom]

60. Thanks. I've read lots of her articles in the newspaper but haven't picked up the book yet. n/t

[JackRiddler]

63. Thank God I still don't know who Amanda Knox is.

That last little bit of resistance to total assimilation of mind into media matrix is still working with me.