Caught on video: Father with family in SUV chased, beaten by speed-demon bikers
Source: NBC News
New York City police are hunting for a vengeful band of up to 30 motorcyclists who forced a driver on a harrowing high-speed chase through upper Manhattan and then beat him in front of his wife and two-year-old daughter.
The six-minute pursuit on Sunday — which was captured on video and posted on YouTube — began when the driver of a black Range Rover called 911 to report erratic bikers taking part in an unauthorized rally dubbed Hollywood Stuntz, police told NBC New York.
The video shows the motorcycles converged on the 33-year-old man's vehicle on the West Side Highway in Harlem, and he apparently clipped a bike that cut closely in front of him.
As the motorcyclists surrounded and began hitting the vehicle, the driver took off, knocking down more bikes as others tore down the blacktop after him.
Read more: http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/09/30/20759574-caught-on-video-father-with-family-in-suv-chased-beaten-by-speed-demon-bikers?lite
Jeeesus christ. Videotaped it too.
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Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)confiscated under criminal forfeiture.
7962
(11,841 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)They are the worst drivers.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)ProgressiveJarhead
(172 posts)Green Eggs and Ham applies to that comment.
frylock
(34,825 posts)really now? maggot mobile? oh please do tell me, a licensed motorcycle rider, how we think we own the road.
CANDO
(2,068 posts)Have you seen how they drive in traffic in NYC? There are NO RULES for these people. I drive a big truck, and time and time again these people appear out of nowhere up the sides of my truck and coming withing inches of brushing cars while weaving between traffic. I promise you this... I'll not shed a tear when one of these people ends up looking like ground venison on the roadway.
ut oh
(891 posts)The motorcyclists I know (including myself) tend to be better drivers than the 'norm'.
You got some serious hate going on over motorcycles. Why is that?
Dustlawyer
(10,494 posts)To use another generalization, young guys go fast b/c many (not all) feel bullet proof and take more chances showing off. Those of us with a little experience realize it's the guys /gals in cars we have to look out for b/c motorcycles get little respect. I have had many squeeze (force me over) b/w another car when there was no room to pass, the list goes on.
I encourage law enforcement to crack down and wonder why no cops showed up in all of that time if the were directing with the 911 operator.
Skittles
(153,111 posts)I don't see that, not at all
pitbullgirl1965
(564 posts)All of them? Really?
energumen
(76 posts)In multiple vehicle accidents involving motorcycles the driver of the other vehicle is at fault a majority of the time.
That does not excuse the fact that some riders are rude, careless, impaired or simply inexperienced.
And if we happen to be voting on the worst drivers and who thinks they own the road I am for tighter controls on semis. More than once I have been run to the shoulder by a semi driver who was asleep, careless, or just impaired, both in my car and on my bike. and none of my vehicles are exactly inconspicuous.
Can't see what transpired before the video begins, but for some reason one of the motorcyclists pulls in front of the Range Rover and several get off their motorcycles. At which time the Range Rover driver guns the throttle and runs over several of them and their bikes (0:50) and races off. Several other riders take pursuit.
Not sure what all this was about, but here's the video.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=319_1380522846
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)
ffr
(22,665 posts)My link was the video itself and I labeled it as such, not as just a story, to be technically correct.
You're a little defensive about this story. Unbiased or neutral would put the topic in a far better light, until further information is known as to what caused the events to unfold the way they did.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)All I did was point out the video was in the story. Hence "Caught on tape"
I saw a story that annoyed and shocked me a bit and posted it. If having to remain neutral means you can't post in LBN anymore, than I guess any story about the bullshit Rethugs are up to should also not be posted by anyone, seeing as no one should remain neutral about that here.
ffr
(22,665 posts)Relax. But you did post "OP" as in original post. So technically the video was not in the OP, but rather a link withing the 'Caught on tape' OP link to the story with the video.
I don't know what LBN is. What is LBN???
I'm not telling you you have to do anything. Please take my reply posts as a recommendation, as a suggestion. You're free to post anything you like.
Okay, flame away.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Sheesh, you're soaking in it.
Response to ffr (Reply #15)
Dash87 This message was self-deleted by its author.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)Groups like this get their kicks out of playing chicken on a nice Sunday afternoon with all the squares out for a Sunday drive. Then when something happens, they get off on the intimidation.
ffr
(22,665 posts)That could have been construed as a threatening move, given the RR is surrounded.
What ever happened to people taking a license plate number and calling the police? May/probably would have prevented the tragedies that are have said to unfold.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)
JimDandy
(7,318 posts)on purpose, so that his back tire contacts the SUV's bumper, in order to force the vehicle to stop. Bizarre.
pitbullgirl1965
(564 posts)That is incredibly dangerous. there must be more to this story
Sunlei
(22,651 posts)....charged with reckless endangerment and endangering the welfare of the child.
So far the car driver has had no charges.
LeFleur1
(1,197 posts)Response to Dawson Leery (Reply #1)
Glassunion This message was self-deleted by its author.
graywarrior
(59,440 posts)Jerks.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)I wouldn't have been so kind, threatening my family like that.
frylock
(34,825 posts)as I've stated already, i'd like to know what led up to the altercation. despite what many people here want to believe, these group rides aren't set up with the intent of beating the crap out of people. if I had to guess, dude in the range rover probably came close to hitting a rider and was likely dismissive of their concerns.
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)Just bikes. Why the obfuscation?
frylock
(34,825 posts)Lien hit the gas and plowed through at least three motorcycles and struck one rider, breaking his leg, before speeding away, police said.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)Noone but the SUV driver was injured. Pretty hard to trust an article that contradicts itself.
And, even if there is a broken leg--the SUV driver should have just let the bikers have their way with him and his family? What are you trying to defend here? It's disgusting.
frylock
(34,825 posts)that you know, we're all like the scoot jocks in mad max on our "maggot mobiles."
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)Nobody should be condemning all bikers. Just these thugs, because the video clearly shows them acting like thugs.
Maybe both sides need to tone down the rider vs non-rider rhetoric. But in this case, I think the SUV driver did exactly what any sane person in that situation would have done.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I've had one asshole speed up to 90 mph to close the gap I was aiming for while merging into the carpool lane, forcing me to roll off and ride a short way in the breakdown lane, another asshole speed up to 80 mph in a merging lane while I was trying to get on the freeway so that I couldn't get in front of him, and just yesterday, another asshole come right up on my rear tire before swinging into the next lane in order to pass me because I had the audacity to ride at a mere 7 mph over the posted speed limit on a surface street. that's why I continue to wonder what may have occurred leading up to what we saw on the videotape. not in any way condoning the violence that ensued, but I sure as hell can empathize with wanting to beat the shit out of someone for nearly ending my life.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.
frylock
(34,825 posts)I suppose all those incidents were really my fault. I had it coming, as it were.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)when a motorcyclist get thrown off their bike at 60 MPH.
The end result is the same.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Just had a friend total his bike do to the idiot driver pulling from a side street in front of him. On post with a large Harley all lights on and bright orange reflective clothing. CARS look for us riders please.
dflprincess
(28,072 posts)but I have a feeling the assholes you describe would do the same thing to anyone trying to merge or change lanes. And they probably tailgate anyone they decide is driving too slow. My Civic seems to attract an awful lot of large vehicles to its bumper (and I have no stickers on it so they're not trying to get closer to read something.)
I have several cousins who've ridden since they were kids (now all in their 50s or 60s). I've had a few rides on the back of the bikes - but not in years, I'm too uncomfortable. But, it helped make me a better driver when I'm near someone on a motorcycle. Maybe as part of driver's ed a person should be required to take a ride as a passenger.
truebluegreen
(9,033 posts)and done the following:
1) on a 4-lane, 2-way street ridden in between the two lanes of opposing traffic;
2) ridden on the sidewalk en masse to avoid stops;
3) ridden on shoulders and in the middle of the street en masse to avoid slowing;
4) run red lights en masse.
All of that was taped by one of the riders' helmet cam and posted online; most has since been taken down but there are still links available elsewhere if you look. I don't have time right now or I would find them for you.
Whatever is true about other drivers, in cars or on bikes, I am not inclined to give this bunch of assholes the benefit of any doubt.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)I know bikers have to put up with a lot of crap, but come on.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)At 5 minutes. The white car. What's the excuse for that?
whopis01
(3,491 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The Times article suggests the driver bears a bit more blame than was initially reported. He was scared? Oh? Well, he broke a guy's legs for it. That's kind of a disproportionate response, given the lack of evidence that he was being assaulted at the initial confrontation.
RedFury
(85 posts)This year, though, the police were ready, with checkpoints set up to inspect the bikes and their riders at bridges and tunnels into Manhattan. At least 15 people were arrested, mostly on vehicular charges, Mr. Kelly said, and 55 motorcycles were confiscated. This was enough to break up the colossal informal ride, sending splinter groups tearing off in different directions.-- highlights mine.
Yeah, that was readily apparent watching the video. A six minute/6 to 8 mile chase all along the Henry Hudson and not a single police presence the whole way -- be it patrol cars, motorcycle cops or even undercover cars. Must have been time for some donuts...
Guy -- and his family -- is lucky to be alive. Those were some frenzied riders out there.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"Moments later, the vehicle accelerates toward the riders who are blocking its path, crashing into several of them and appearing to roll over at least one motorcycle. The police said that the motorcyclist who had initially been struck sustained broken legs, but that no other serious injuries were reported. For the next several minutes, the vehicle can be seen fleeing in the video, with the motorcyclists in pursuit. After being forced to stop near the entrance to the George Washington Bridge, the driver is approached by one of the motorcyclists, who tries to open the driver’s side door; the S.U.V. bolts, knocking the man down."
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/nyregion/motorcyclists-assault-suv-driver-after-chase-uptown-police-say.html?_r=0
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)The police have stated they have no plans to charge the SUV driver, which implies he was justifiably acting in self-defense.
The police are also actively hunting down the bikers involved. That ought to be enough to put it to rest who the actual victim is in this case. By all means, though, keep defending the mob. Proceed. 
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Things are not always as they seem at first glance.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)pitbullgirl1965
(564 posts)Wishing him death, calling him thug (which we all know is a dog whistle) serves him right etc. He was hurt trying to help the guy who was knocked down. I don't know if he was involved with harassing the SUV, but I don't think he deserved this.
RedFury
(85 posts)Once more from you new link:
In the video recorded on a biker's helmet camera and later posted on YouTube, one of the bikers appears to nearly stop in front of the SUV on the highway and the two collided.. -- highlights mine.
Some of the bikers, apparently angry over the collision, started to confront the driver and, at one point, started to slash his tires
But wait, there's more as to who's at fault here:
Lien was beaten while his wife and 2-year-old daughter were inside the SUV. He sustained facial lacerations and bruises.-- highlights mine
Lien will not be charged for his role, according to police.
The NYPD announced Monday that one person has been arrested in connection with the incident.
UPDATE: Second arrest made
Christopher Cruz, 28, was charged with reckless endangerment, reckless menacing and endangering the welfare of a child.
Police also released a photo of two more bikers they're looking for.
The men are accused of taking off their helmets and smashing the SUV, before pulling the driver out and attacking him.
Time to stop defending these scuzballs.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)all of that happened AFTER Mr. Lien ran over a human being. (Per the video, pending better video/impartial eyewitness testimony from the initial encounter.)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"The motorcyclists, 20 to 30 in all, then come to a complete halt on the highway, block the SUV's path. Some dismount and approach the vehicle. Police said some of the bikers then began damaging the Range Rover, which isn't clear from the video."
http://www.newsday.com/news/new-york/nypd-motorcyclists-attack-suv-driver-1.6172566
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)That more or less confirms everything that has been said already, and clearly puts the bikers at fault. Are you conceding that point now?
Also, it is very unfortunate if the one man was indeed paralyzed. I am in no way rooting for anyone to be hurt.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It acknowledges there are allegations, but the video is INCONCLUSIVE. (So far)
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)to just memorize his license plate and sue him for punitive damages (the biker could easily find an attorney to take that case)...Instead now they've made themselves the 'bad guys' in this...
But my earlier point still stands: If you're getting this many people together for a ride (especially in a congested city), put your "grownup pants" on, appoint some leaders for the day and organize some kind of formation...
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)However, running a guy and his bike over seems like a disproportionate response to the initial contact/brake check.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)not to mention idiotic, since that's *ALL* most people are talking about or will ever remember about this incident...No way in hell can they get him charged for hit-and-run or win a claim for damages now...
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I can understand the anger though. Meat and bone against a 5,487lb vehicle is about as unfair of a contest as you can get.
AND it's possible they really did give him reason to fear for his safety in the initial contact, that just can't be seen on the video.
wercal
(1,370 posts)Lien’s first encounter with the bikers shows a group of them taking off their helmets and denting the side of Lien’s SUV, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly told The Post. A few other riders slashed the tires. Lien apparently panicked and stepped on the gas. He was surrounded at the time and slammed into a few of the riders, the report said."
So the sequence of events - the swarming of the vehicle, slowing down in front of it, and stopping it was the initial contact.
This initial contact wasn't just stopping the vehicle...they started beating the vehicle.
This is what caused the driver to hit the gas and get out of there - right over a motorcycle.
This is exactly what I would have done.
What the riders did was complete and utter bullshit, from start to finish.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)And none of that is substantiated by the video. None of the tires are flat. The ABC photos after the window is broken, doesn't show flat tires. It does show dents, but they are not there in the video when he flees.
I don't think the whole story has been shared yet. Too much conflicting shit from multiple outlets supposedly quoting the police, and the story keeps changing.
I do believe the claim they were trying to close the road though. That seems to be standard MO for this particular group of riders.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)after the bikers caused also caused the initial contact.
Him driving away - over a motorcycle or two - was an option that I don't begrudge him choosing.
Although it appears that it only delayed him getting assaulted & beaten.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)It's alleged by the driver, and contested by the bikers.
In the video, you do not see a bunch of bikers hop off their bikes. They are all just looking in the direction of the vehicle after everyone stops.
The range rover is intact, as it goes over the bike. The wheels aren't flattened. The tail lights aren't broken. There's no obvious damage to the vehicle.
I won't say it's impossible, but there's no evidence in that video to support the driver's allegation that they were attacking his vehicle.
A vehicle is just property. I wouldn't trade the finish on my car for a guy's legs, even if they were pounding on it.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)RE: "There's no evidence in the video of that happening."
What happening ? The bikers causing the accident by surrounding him and then one of them stops in front of him and he accidentally hits him - which *is* visible on the video ?
RE: "In the video, you do not see a bunch of bikers hop off their bikes. They are all just looking in the direction of the vehicle after everyone stops. "
They were cursing him, beating on his vehicle & cut his tires according to every news report available.
'The SUV driver pulled over, and the bikers surrounded his vehicle, hitting it and spiking the tires, police said. The driver pulled away, hitting three more bikers in the process, police said.'
http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/30/us/new-york-bikers-road-rage-video/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
RE: "The range rover is intact, as it goes over the bike. The wheels aren't flattened. The tail lights aren't broken. There's no obvious damage to the vehicle. "
How do you know the tires aren't cut ? Because it still rolls ? You can see clearly enough in that video that the vehicle hasn't been beaten on ? Really ?????
RE: "I won't say it's impossible, but there's no evidence in that video to support the driver's allegation that they were attacking his vehicle. "
I see a mob on bikes in traffic surrounding his vehicle, preventing it from leaving.
RE: "A vehicle is just property. I wouldn't trade the finish on my car for a guy's legs, even if they were pounding on it."
I doubt he gave a shit about the vehicle. Wife and child.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You can also tell by the fact that his shit didn't come apart during the 20 minute high speed chase. Flattened tires don't work like that, and they don't look flat anyway.
At high speeds, even on run-flat tires, you need them to be in good condition or they start coming apart. They may well have been slashed during the beating however. That's how US News reports it, during the beating, according to police. http://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/10/01/motorcyclists-and-suv-clash-in-nyc-road-rage-nightmare
"You can see clearly enough in that video that the vehicle hasn't been beaten on ?"
Article you linked claims dents. I see no obvious dents. I make no claims as to the other side of the car. Pay very close attention here. I said the video does not support those claims. I do not say those claims are certainly false. I do not KNOW that those claims are false, I only know what the video shows.
I see no evidence of flattened tires. Again, I do not claim they were not flattened at some point, but it is not revealed by the video, and the video certainly doesn't suggest he was fleeing with flattened tires.
I do see a dent in the CBS story photo after the window is smashed, in the side of the hood apron, but that is NOT present when he is fleeing from initial contact with the rider. The video is plenty clear enough for that. As are the video stills CBS posted. That dent happened later.
I watched the slightly longer copy of the initial encounter CBS posted, and it looks as though the SUV brake tested the guy with the white shirt before he got in front of the SUV and returned the favor.
The left front and rear tires are perfectly intact and holding air in the photos taken after police arrived at the scene. I make no claim to the passenger side, beyond that they appear intact during the chase.
"I see a mob on bikes in traffic surrounding his vehicle, preventing it from leaving."
Excellent. We can agree here. You note there is no overlap or conflict between our two claims at that point. Except perhaps your use of 'mob' but linguistically it seems allowable.
"I doubt he gave a shit about the vehicle. Wife and child."
AT THAT POINT in the video, the 'threat' is tenuous or unsupported. A bunch of people still on their motorcycles is not really a threat. What actually happened where we can't see it may or may not support his claim for reasonable threat.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)Are you counsel for the bikers ?
I'm out.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)And I do not condone their actions when they caught the guy, and they are going to have to answer for that.
Kindly point out said 'straws'. The tires are not flat in the video. They aren't even flat in the post-police arrival photos in the CBS story. The dents do not appear until the window is already smashed.
I do not know what happened when the driver alleges the tires were initially slashed and he feared for his life. The bikers say one thing, he says another. All I know is the video does not support the allegation of pounding/damage or slashed tires.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)I hate myself for indulging this, but I'll do one:
"The SUV driver pulled over, and the bikers surrounded his vehicle, hitting it and spiking the tires, police said. The driver pulled away, hitting three more bikers in the process, police said.
The gang, called "Hollywood Stuntz," according to police, chased the man, and he was forced to stop because of flat tires."
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)His tires are NOT flat.
Not in any of the media evidence online so far.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585
Front left tire, fine.
Rear left tire, fine.
Passenger side isn't spitting chunks or anything during the chase.
Have you ever tried to drive on a flat tire at any speed?
Bonx
(2,051 posts)"Sources said Lien stopped, but “feared for his safety” as several of the wild ones got off their bikes and began to beat on his SUV. The terrified Lien dialed 911 on his cell phone, the sources said.
“He’s surrounded by about 20 to 30 motorcyclists,” Kelly said. “They take their helmets and they start to dent his car and apparently his tires are slashed there with a knife. He’s in the car with his wife. He continues to drive.”
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585#ixzz2gUfEeNBl
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The visible tires are not flat. They don't even appear to be run-flats sitting at the mid-point on the inner layer.
Passenger side, can't see, but it is performing ok on the road when he's running at high speed. That's a 5,300lb vehicle, dry curb weight.
Again, I ask, have you ever tried to drive at any speed on a flat?
Bonx
(2,051 posts)Sorry.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)As does the video.
Again, 5,300lb vehicle. Have you driven at ANY speed on a flat?
Bonx
(2,051 posts)The statements in the article are not.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Some specify quite clearly AFTER the window is smashed.
If it didn't happen when the driver says it did, what else did he lie about?
Bonx
(2,051 posts)Getting attacked & chased through the streets of NYC by a mob of bikers ? Dragged from his vehicle & beaten in public in broad daylight ? Attackers all get away ? Sounds like a bad ripoff of an old Clint Eastwood movie. Shame there wasn't any video.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)You certainly appear to be denying the SUV driver (not charged) that same benefit of the doubt you are generously giving to the bikers (at least one of whom is already charged).
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I have also given the driver the benefit of the doubt that he may have been in fear for his life, per the video, which does not show the moment he felt he had to floor it.
I have only pointed out that no damage later visible on the car, is present when he flees at high speed. Tires look ok. Vehicle performs ok. None of the later visible dents appear in the video.
I have also accepted that the video only shows one side of the car. (I also pointed out he may have runflat tires, but they don't appear to be in that condition in the CBSNews photos, after the window is broken and the cops arrive)
In the video his tires are most certainly not in a condition that would prevent him from continuing driving. He is blocked instead by traffic.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"I have only pointed out that no damage later visible on the car..."
You contend then that is all you've pointed out?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Quote mining is not your friend.
LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)I doubt being specific is quote mining, but I can understand why one may conflate that. I've simply read many more posts of yours allowing benefits of the doubt to the bikers...
You may rationalize it as you wish.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I have, many times, pointed out that depending on what the bikers did when the camera can't see the initial encounter, might put the entire blame on the bikers.
It's even in a couple post titles.
RedFury
(85 posts)...at no point does the SUV driver appear to be driving at "high speed." I'd guesstimate 45/55 tops. That was one of the first things that struck me about the video. I would have been driving like a bat out of hell. Occam's razor*? Slashed tires.
*Pun intended.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)By the end of the chase, it was running on bare rim.
This does not explain if the tire was slashed by hand, or punctured by part of the bike that the same corner of the car drove up over. (Side peg, cowling, etc.)
Both left tires were fine. I have seen no evidence of what, if anything, happened to the right rear.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)exactly what any prudent husband and father would have done, save himself and his family from harm.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The guy tried to open his door AFTER he was stopped once, AFTER he ran a human being over with his SUV. Not the police and not the dude behind the wheel have once claimed that they tried to open his door before he ran the guy over. They only claimed that people flattened his tires (not evident, since he was able to drive away at high speed) and that they banged on the car (also not evident from the video, because the dents don't appear until AFTER the beatdown)
So while he may or may not have been in fear, it had nothing at all to do with them trying to open his door.
Side point; the bikers, despite beating his ass, did NOTHING AT ALL to his wife and kid. Not a scratch on them.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)and they DID attempt to open the door BEFORE he fled the scene. The driver did nothing illegal.
That last part is not relevant.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Because I have yet to see an article claiming he or the police alleged they tried to open his door before he ran the guy over.
They clearly try to open his door at a light, before he hits two MORE bikes, and flees again, but that's AFTER he ran someone over.
Your claim isn't in either of these:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/nyc-motorcycle-attack-bikers-wife-walk/story?id=20430576
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/nyregion/motorcyclists-assault-suv-driver-after-chase-uptown-police-say.html
Show me a source that they opened his door, or tried to, BEFORE he ran a human being down in the road.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)There's nothing in there about them opening his door at the initial confrontation.
However, I do appreciate you posting it, because it is the first photo I have seen that shows damage to any tire. (The front right is down to the rim.) Of course, that's the same tire that ran up over the bike, so it may have been a puncture, rather than a slashed tire.
Why am I defending them? Because they were automatically assumed to be guilty over scant evidence and nothing more than allegation from the get-go. Over an event that appears to be worth blaming multiple parties for their part in it.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)Why have there been no indications of possible charges against Mr. Lien?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)are using post-hoc reasoning to justify him running over a human to escape, or you are alleging that they tried to open his door and that justified him running over a human to escape.
"They tried to open his door. He was in fear."
Your statement in that post requires one of two things: either they tried to open his door and therefore he was in fear (not reported), or the fear that impelled him to run over a person and escape isn't predicated on an overt, material act, like opening his door, that might well reasonably give someone cause to fear for their life.
We have: allegations of a slashed tire. The photo you cited does show a flat tire. However, this is the same tire that ran over the bike, and may have been punctured doing so. (Side pegs, frame edges, etc)
We have: allegations they banged on his car. There are dents evident in the photos you and others have cited, only AFTER the final confrontation. There are none earlier. (Possible they weren't hitting the car hard at that point)
So, in order to assume Mr Lien is actually justified in fleeing, we need more evidence than the conflicting testimony from the two sides, or the video, because the video does not show ANY of the claims either side made, to be true. It only shows one possible way the right front tire got flattened.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)family. If he was charged and asked for a jury trial, the jury would come to that conclusion in about ten minutes and it would be over.
You must have missed the following in that Post story:
“They take their helmets and they start to dent his car, and apparently his tires are slashed with a knife,” Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said at a press conference Monday.
The panicked dad gunned the engine, striking several bikers — one of whom was seriously injured — as he sped off, with the pack of thugs in hot pursuit, police sources said."
The driver panicked. I think it was justified. Even if the thugs did not touch the SUV their actions could certainly be construed as threatening. The driver was protecting his family.
You don't need to respond to this post because unless there is new information, this exchange will be more rehashing of the same information.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I accept your revised claim, as an allegation. It MAY be true.
It may also be that they did not bang on his car, and that the tire was flattened by running over the bike. More evidence required to substantiate the allegations.
How reasonable Mr. Lien's fear, precipitating him running over a human in evasion, remains to be substantiated.
The events, including him being pulled from the car and beaten, cannot be used to justify that fear after the fact, because he seriously injured a person, and appears to be engaged in a hit and run, AFTER he decides to flee.
Having had an angry mob around my car at one point, I can sympathize. It's unnerving. I do not agree that it, in all cases, justifies running people over to escape. (I was in my Rodeo, surrounded by not very reasonable people, engaged in tit-for-tat with the SPD during the Seattle WTO riots. Initially they were upset with us, rocking the car, etc, but my wife and I were able to de-escalate the situation and drive away safely, and without property damage or personal injury.)
I need to see what happened, at the car, before he runs over the bike, to understand whether that attempt to escape was worth paralyzing a human being for.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)I wrote that an attempt was made to open the door to the SUV, they surrounded his vehicle, he panicked and took off.
You don't have to pull that timeline crap with me because I am aware of the timeline and have not posted anything that disregards the timeline.
The asshole bikers purposely stopped the SUV with a stunt. They have his vehicle surrounded. I am sure there were some shouts made and threatening gestures. The guy was in fear for the lives of his family and he took off. There is no way, with the information at hand, that any blame goes to the SUV driver. You never did answer why Mr. Lien has not been mentioned at all as possibly being charged with a crime.
As to your last point, the SUV was purposely stopped on the expressway by a gang of thugs. The stopped SUV is surrounded by thugs. If it were me I'd drive over a dozen of those thugs to protect my family. If they all got paralyzed, well as some have written on these threads, "play stupid games, win stupid prizes."
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)"271. They DID intimidate the driver and his wife,
and they DID attempt to open the door BEFORE he fled the scene. The driver did nothing illegal."
You have not provided any evidence or claims from the police, or Mr. Lien to substantiate that this claim has been made. The attempt to open his door was made AFTER he fled the scene.
All of the news sources you and I just posted in this thread fork do NOT make the claim someone tried to open his door before he fled the scene.
Your last paragraph might well be the case, but it is not yet substantiated by the video, or credible testimony. I do not know why Mr. Lien wasn't cited at least for failure to avoid an accident, for making the initial contact at very low speed. That was a highly avoidable accident, even if the biker was not justified in stopping him/committing a moving violation.
You might recall, Zimmerman wasn't initially charged with anything either.
"There is no way, with the information at hand, that any blame goes to the SUV driver."
I disagree with your level of confidence, based on the video.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)driver is blameless in the 'failure to avoid contact' with the idiot who did the brake check. Normally, it is the person who rear-ends another vehicle who is at fault. The video shows the intent by the biker to make contact, why, I don't know. He pulled his stunt much too close for the driver to avoid contact.
I looked for, but could not find the news story that said they banged on the car and attempted to open the door at the initial stop. I'll keep looking. There are so many stories now, it's difficult to sift through them.
I still do not understand you fevered attempts to defend the criminal behavior of those motorcyclists.
The gang of bikers were attempting to take over the expressway and the SUV got caught up in it. He felt threatened. To me the video shows that fear was justified. Apparently, you do not think that fear was justified. That's it. I'm done, I'm tired of this exchange.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)if the evidence eventually substantiates it. Currently there is a possibility the blame is shared.
I disagree with you that the initial contact was unavoidable by the SUV. The bike can stop a LOT faster than that. I see a tap of the brake lights, and basically it looks like he released the throttle. (I do ride bikes as well as drive large vehicles) The speed is low enough, in my opinion, Mr. Lien has no excuse for hitting that bike. He may have wanted to bump it aside. He may not have believed that the rider would risk a move like that. He may have looked away at another rider. I don't know. I don't care. The contact is inexcusable for BOTH parties. Again, in my opinion.
"I still do not understand you fevered attempts to defend the criminal behavior of those motorcyclists."
I always advocate for the truth. Even uncomfortable truths.
I agree to disagree on whether Mr. Lien was justified in feeling threatened at the point he ran over a person to escape. I accept the possibility that further evidence might justify that fear. I refuse to make a certain assumption of that fear given the evidence as it stands.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)during the first stop, correct? Well, here it is. The photo on post #303 shows a bare right front wheel. That means the cop was correct when he said the thugs slashed his tire.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023759752#post303
An attack like that proves that the SUV driver did the right thing to get his family out of thered I am sure you will come up with some excuse about how it was ok for the thugs to slash the tire to keep him at the scene of the accident caused by the idiot on the motorcycle. (Why did he do a brake check in the first place?)
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That tire alone is an indicator, but not a certainty.
1. The tire could have been slashed when the vehicle was stopped at the light, and one biker opened the door but failed to extract Mr. Lien before he drove away.
2. The tire could have been punctured by the motorcycle it drove up over. That is the side that went up over the downed motorcycle at the first encounter. It could have been punctured or knocked off the bead of the rim, or as it hammered back to the ground on the other side of the bike.
I have surprisingly extensive experience with such tire failures.
I would have relented on this issue when I saw the bare rim in the ABCNews photos yesterday, if I thought that could only have been a result of the tire slash at the first encounter.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)1. The door was opened at about 5:00 mark.
Ergo: the tire was damaged ahead of time.
2. Possible, but for the eyewitness testimony.
Confirmation bias exists. How do you think confirmation bias is influencing your thinking about this incident?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The only witnesses that have publicly claimed the tires were slashed (so far) were the occupants of the car. Not impartial parties. (I also take issue with the repeated use of tire(s) plural, in the new articles. Only one appears damaged even after the beating)
I don't think confirmation bias is playing into this. My objection is predicated entirely upon the fact that I can see most of the encounter, but not the pivotal moment where Lien claims to feel in fear for his life, and fled. That single moment would, if I could see it, resolve the entire list of questions/concerns I have about the story as presented so far.
I have the same problem with using a motor vehicle as a battering ram against a human, as I do using a firearm against a human. It MUST be justifiable. (Especially since in this case, no one is alleging the crushed guy did anything wrong, analogous to a bystander shot by a armed person accidentally, in the course of actual self defense)
There are other gopro's mounted on other helmets in that video. I fully expect more evidence will be forthcoming. It is possible the tire was slashed, it is possible his car was attacked. It is possible Lien's choice to flee is justifiable.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)They said the tires were slashed. You are correct that the evidence so far only shows one tire slashed - but that is enough, no?
Plus the passenger side window was smashed. A what point did the driver's wife deserve to be attacked?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I think they are understandably pissed and frustrated with the entire several-thousand strong gaggle of idiot riders that pull off these 'rides', because of the high propensity of hooliganism. If the riders want that to change, they are going to have to start policing their own behavior.
The wife was not injured. I suspect they were trying to stop/disable/get into the car by any means. (Her lack of injury might mean it was just vindictive property damage after she exited the vehicle)
Thank you though, for eliminating one of the possible points at which in the timeline the tire could have been damaged. That did clarify things.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)What you do not know, is if the tire was slashed, or coincidentally being the same tire that went up and over the bike (And the crushed guy), or if it was punctured by some part on the bike. (Or knocked off the bead by the impact)
Bonx
(2,051 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Tires are flattened by that sort of thing all the time. I caught part of a fucking starbucks frappe mochawhatever bottle in my tire, and the bottle crushed, but the base was perpendicular to the tire, and it drove right through a 10 ply steel belt truck tire. Plenty of parts on a motorcycle that could be unfriendly to a tire rolling over it.
Since it speaks to the motive/justification for Lien running over a person to escape, it is critical that the claim of the tire being slashed be substantiated.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)And nothing has showed up in the news disputing the original statements by police that slashing occurred on the highway.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They contend they didn't slash the tire, at the scene of the bump/flee.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)1) has been identified 2) & interviewed 3) and every one of them said they didn't cut the tire ?
Even if the above happened - which it hasn't, and never will - their statement(s) would be worth exactly nothing.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)There are more GoPro cameras there, on helmets. We've only seen the one video.
There is likely more evidence and it could show for certain one way or the other.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)RedFury
(85 posts)...especially when they had like a 50 to one advantage.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)they have been called animals and worse here.
If they were such savages, I would actually EXPECT them to have done a lot more.
The video reveals no serious injuries or property damage until after he crushed someone with his SUV. Not at the brake check, after that, when he 'fled in fear'.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)AND ENCIRCLING HIM? I don't care what your issue is, you don't do that. Ever. And if you do, you deserve what happens, as they did in this case.
frylock
(34,825 posts)is it your belief that riders just do that all the time, for no apparent reason?
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)I was a rider for years. I know that all bikers aren't bad people. But these assholes are just that, assholes. And it's morons like them that give the rest of us a bad name. Oh and, idiots who defend them online. They give us a bad name too.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You can't tell from the video what the fuck started this.
YOU tell me why the guy in the white shirt and backpack gets over in front of the range rover and slows down. You tell me why the range rover made contact with him when, at that speed, contact could have been easily avoided. You tell me what happens behind that wall of bikes and people, when the Range Rover drives up over a bike and flees.
Because my fucking crystal ball is in the shop and yours is working so goddamn good.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)and instead of taking down the license late like you should have you all got together and threatened his family and started beating out his windows.
No? You didn't do that? Oh well, that's a slightly different situation then.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They break his window at the END, AFTER he ran one of them over, and broke his leg.
You fucking BET I would chase someone down in that situation. "take his plate' fuck that noise. You bet I'd pull someone out of their car.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)I don't care who you are or what your beef is, if I'm ever surrounded by 30 guys on bikes who aren't letting me leave, and my family's in the car, I will run your ass over so fast, you will never know what hit you.
Understand?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)None at all. Not till more video surfaces.
And there will be, there were multiple gopro's on people's helmets. This is just one video from one angle.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)and bash his window in with my helmet while I was waiting for you. My bad."
Really? They were waiting for the cops? That's your new apologist bullshit angle? LOL.
Um, given that the cops are CURRENTLY LOOKING FOR ALL OF THEM, how hard did they really wait? I'm sure the cops would love to talk with them now.
Jesus, you apologist bullshit gets more lame with every post you make.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They bashed his window in at the end. His windows are rolled up and vehicle intact, when he runs over that bike and flees.
Are you sure he was slashed before that? Prove it?
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)It says so in that google story you so casually dismiss before you revert to your many maybe's.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)of an accident?
Too many people standing around in a threatening manner? Prove it.
No evidence of that in the video.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)stopping in the middle of the road, holding up traffic, and surrounding his car not only evidence of hostile intent, but pretty much proof of it. I'm sure you're going to revert to your infinite supply of "maybe's" and say, "maybe they were just trying to say hello," but most of us who don't have our head up our ass know better and can see that kind of behavior for what it is, aggressive intent.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I asked, because you keep bringing up shit that happened AFTER he ran over the bike, to justify him running over the bike. Which is ass-backwards.
You have no idea what they did to him. Most of them never got off their bikes, by the video. You have no idea.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)Um, you're the one who has nothing, except implying that a bunch of men who fled from law enforcement after surrounding a man, then chasing him when he broke free, and then slashing his face with a knife and beating him up in front of his family, WERE IN FACT WAITING FOR THE COPS.
Yes, that is how lame your dancing around and spinning actually sounds.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I'm not passing judgment on EITHER side, until I know the full story. A story YOU do not possess.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)The guy that did the stunt in front of him was uninjured. They tried to open the driver's door. The guy was in fear for his life and he fled the scene. He did nothing wrong either legally or morally.
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)Yes, they seemed so eager to get the cops involved. Riiiiight.
Where do you people come up with this stuff? Unreal.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)None at all. It may have happened. I am not saying the bikers were all smiles and roses. They might have been pissed, but maybe understandably so.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)Maybe they just wanted to chat about fantasy football picks 
If this was 1992, you'd be defending the fuckers who pulled Reginald Denny out of his truck.
"Understandably so"? You "understand" why they'd chase and attempt to murder a man in front of his family? Are you fucking kidding me?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I am not defending the vigilante attack afterward, though I can understand the sentiment. I am pointing out we don't know whether the riders did anything to warrant him running someone over. (He ran over a bike, and broke a guy's leg, which you CAN see on the video)
Politicub
(12,165 posts)I don't blame the guy for wanting to get out of there. I would do whatever it takes to protect my family.
It's absurd to think you should wait to see if the mob decides to attack before you try to get away.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Every bike visible, the riders actually stay put on their bikes, and just look in the direction of where the car is. Hardly a converging mob.
Politicub
(12,165 posts)The only hard evidence we have is the video, and it's clearly a mob attacking a man and his family.
It seems like you're arguing that they formed some sort of safety circle of peace around this family. Bizarre.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)How many riders do you see get off their bikes and approach the vehicle, in the video? (BEFORE Lien fled the scene)
whopis01
(3,491 posts)Even if someone assaults you or one of your friends, it doesn't give you the right to chase them down, pull them from their vehicle and beat them.
I understand that in the heat of the moment anger can take control of people - but to state that would be your plan from the get go is a bit disturbing.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Hit and run with an injury is a felony. Prior to that point, I don't even see anyone get off their bikes around him. Lots of bikes stop, blocking the street, but I can't see what happened at the car.
Early on, there were claims they slashed his tire at that point. The Times has corrected that.
Opening his door? Not a crime, after a felony hit and run.
Breaking his window is the first questionable act on this video. Before that, the only clear evidence on the video of any wrongdoing is the Rover going up over a bike and breaking someone's leg. (Acutally, Times is now reporting both legs)
If there was an unlawful act by the group of riders after the brake test/first contact, it is not evident on this film.
whopis01
(3,491 posts)There is no change in the rules that allow them to do that.
In fact, there is no change in the rules that allow them to pursue him and force him to pull over.
I am not saying the man in the SUV is blameless. You are right, hit and run is a felony. But that doesn't give others the right to become vigilantes.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I'm totally with you on the vigilantism. They obviously should not have beaten him.
Forcing him to stop is well within the law, to my understanding. And still, there is no evidence so far that he was justified in driving up over a bike and a guy's legs to get away from the initial fender bender.
whopis01
(3,491 posts)Are you trying to make it sound like I am claiming he was justified in fleeing after hitting the motorcyclist?
If that is the case you are either grossly misreading my posts, confusing someone else's posts with mine, or deliberately trying to discredit me in you subject line.
I never once said anything about the SUV drivers actions being justified. I even said he committed a crime by hitting and running.
They chased him for miles before forcing him to stop. That is not legal no matter what he did. Generally speaking, the law allows you to take action to protect people and property - and once it changed from the driver being a threat to them to them chasing down the driver they crossed over line (legally speaking).
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)When a person commits a felony in your presence, you are, in fact, ok to pursue them. That's certainly the case in my state. I would be surprised if that is not the case in New York. You are also obligated to report said felony to the police.
I would like to see a law that prohibits pursuit after you witness a felony. I have never heard this from a police officer. (Allowing of course, for New York state law perhaps being different from my state in some regards)
whopis01
(3,491 posts)You must have my posts confused with someone else.
If you can find any post of mine that indicates that I felt the driver was justified in running someone over and fleeing, I will apologize to you right here.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)reading more into your post in 165 than you meant. It seems like an overall counterpoint, rather than just specific to the vigilante-beating. I certainly disagree they didn't have legal standing to pursue after witnessing a felony.
We seem to agree that they did not have legal standing to beat him.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)whopis01
(3,491 posts)quite what happened at the start.
One thing I can say definitively is that once the SUV was in front of the bikers (posing no more threat to them - no matter what happened prior to that point), then the bikers had no right to chase him.
Whether or not the SUV driver is totally blameless depends on details that I can't tell from the video. Don't take this to mean that I am saying he is at fault - I am saying that I can not tell.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)ran over the bike/dude.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Where may they be found?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)“No biker became aggressive with the driver after the incident,” said Mr. Towles, who belongs to a Brooklyn motorcycle club. “People were just trying to find out what just happened.” "
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/nyregion/motorcyclists-assault-suv-driver-after-chase-uptown-police-say.html
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Compared to Mr. Lien and his wife.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)match the video.
He claimed he had to stop because his tires are flat. That's clearly BS, he had to stop because there was a wall of cars in front of him. His tires appear to be ok at that point in the video, and the tires shown in the ABC article photos are still inflated. (The passenger side cannot be seen, but the vehicle is not canted in a manner that would suggest a flat)
He also claimed they pounded on his car, at the initial confrontation, but the dents apparent in his car in the ABC article are not visible on the car during the initial chase, despite the video being of adequate quality to see them. (I will certainly allow that it is possible to pound without denting, but there is no clear evidence this happened.)
I don't doubt that he was afraid and panicked and fled. I disagree, based on what is public evidence at the moment, that it was justified.
(He never even locked his door until the final encounter where the window is broken.)
As far as the bikers being a pack of savages, as has been alleged elsewhere in this thread, again, I note they only kicked Lien's ass. His wife and kid were unharmed. Interesting.
If I saw people jumping off bikes and approaching the SUV in the initial encounter, before the SUV runs someone over, I would be more amenable to believing his claim. But they don't. Every single biker in frame stops, and just looks in the direction of the SUV. There will probably be more footage at some point of what happened at the vehicle, which you cannot see in the main video. There were more cameras present. I suspect the event didn't reach any level that would credibly warrant running over a bystander, breaking his legs and paralyzing him from the waist down, to escape, for fear of your wife and child, who were in the end not harmed at all.
So far, there is no evidence that clearly shows the biker's claims to be false. There may be more at some point. I am willing to reverse my position if the evidence warrants.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)The mob slashed his tire, as seen in this picture: http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014606742#post337
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Why is this suddenly news to everyone
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)I need to get that fixed.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)This group is well known to police and people in the neighborhood. They are an absolute menace breaking every traffic rule known such as driving on the wrong side of the road, running red lights, surrounding peoples' vehicles, forcing them off the road, pounding on their vehicles, driving down side walks, etc. Every year they do this illegal mass ride doing the same illegal shit, shut down the highway with their illegal shit and do stunts that they film. There are dozens and dozens of their videos all over the internet of the shit they get up to. Most of them don't have bikes that are street legal, registered, or even have valid drivers licenses. You can see in the video of this incident that they took that many of them didn't have a registered bike or they took off their license plates in order to not be caught doing the crap they do by bystanders or the people they victimize regularly by reporting their plate numbers.
This is one of their videos they took two years ago of the menacing and dangerous shit they do. That was the year they took over Times Square with their shit...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=0ujSkztMRrs#t=60
Again in 2011 attacking another driver while they drive down the wrong side the road, run red lights, drive on the sidewalk, etc...
There are tons of these videos all over the internet. They are PROUD of their dangerous and criminal antics. Notice that again they either ride unregistered bikes or have taken off their license plates to avoid getting caught.
Here's some information on the guy that was hit and got his legs broken that his family claims he is now paraylised...
http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2013/10/01/lawrence-man-seriously-injured-nyc-incident-involving-suv-and-motorcyclists/jHju3V1xAOsdF6Q2vT8BaL/story.html
"Though Mieses is a Massachusetts resident, he has never had a valid Massachusetts driver’s license for a passenger vehicle and has never applied for a motorcycle license, the Registry of Motor Vehicles said.
Registry records show that Mieses applied for a learner’s permit in 1999 and 2000, but that he never obtained a full license because he failed to pay fines imposed after he was ticketed for speeding in Lawrence in 1999. His last contact with the Registry was in 2001, when he obtained an identification card, registry records show.
Since 1999, he has been ticketed by police 16 times, in Lawrence, Methuen, Roxbury, Andover, and New Hampshire, according to registry records.
In June, the Registry notified the National Driver Register that Mieses was a habitual traffic offender whose right to drive in Massachusetts was revoked until 2017, records show."
Mieses "J Meezee" on YouTube and his friend "Tat" doing the same kind of reckless shit on the road with their bikes...
Check out his other videos.
These thugs ARE thugs and are PROUD of the criminal terrorizing shit they do on public roads.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Ok, so they tried to close the road, unlawfully. That doesn't change the fact that an SUV ran up over a human being.
None of that shit you talked about, while all illegal, excuses running up over a human with a car. Now, there MAY be evidence or testimony forthcoming that might justify what Lien did, but we don't have that here in the public sphere just yet.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)You're the one claiming they're just innocent as lambs. They AREN'T. They've been doing this illegal and dangerous shit for YEARS. They are PROUD of it.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I strongly question whether Lien justifiably ran over a human to escape what he alleges was a credible threat.
There are strong parallels here to using a firearm in self defense, against a person not armed with a firearm. A situation we, as an aggregate on DU, normally deplore or at least question the motives and justification for.
I normally argue from principle. I question in both cases.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I might well pull someone out of their car (more likely reach in and take the keys), but I would not do anything more than hold the person there until the police arrive.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)You might just get yourself killed. Not a good idea.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)She was wandering all over the road, bumping cars, bumped a motorcycle, grinding against the k-rails. We tried vectoring in the police via 911, but it wasn't until she got boxed in at a red light, and I went and stood in front of her car, that we got her to finally stop and wait for the cops.
After she turned the car off, I came around to her side, and reached in and took the keys. No physical confrontation. My goal was to de-escalate the situation, and I did.
That was not the bikers response, however, and for that, they will spend time in jail.
Edit: Oh, I didn't specify why that happened. She was on vodka and valium, or vodka and Vicodin, I don't remember.
Bonx
(2,051 posts):/
TeamPooka
(24,205 posts)jberryhill
(62,444 posts)wercal
(1,370 posts)Latest info from AP:
"Law enforcement sources told the New York Post Tuesday that the bikers were trying to slow Lien down so they could get in front of him and take over the West Side Highway. Some bikers had already blocked off a few of the highway's entrances to prevent drivers from entering, the sources said.
Lien’s first encounter with the bikers shows a group of them taking off their helmets and denting the side of Lien’s SUV, Police Commissioner Ray Kelly told The Post. A few other riders slashed the tires. Lien apparently panicked and stepped on the gas. He was surrounded at the time and slammed into a few of the riders, the report said."
The riders started this. They weren't retaliating for anything...they were trying to take over the highway, brought this vehicle to a stop, and started smashing it up.
They wanted to play outlaw biker...and this guy ran over one of them. That is exactly what I would have done.
frylock
(34,825 posts)http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/nyregion/motorcyclists-assault-suv-driver-after-chase-uptown-police-say.html?_r=0
aaaaaand that's when the video kicks in. the riders attempt to slow him down to fuck with him, he hits rider, riders freak out, dismount and approach vehicle (but still no assault), driver flips his shit and drives over bikes and at least one rider (who suffered two broken legs) and THAT is when the pursuit took place. not saying that I condone or approve, but tired of the fucking bullshit posted here that these guys set out to beat up people at random like Mad fucking Max. there was clearly an incident that set these guys off.
wercal
(1,370 posts)"He said the driver sped up when the riders approached and hurled obscenities at them."
I've had people yell at me....and I didn't retaliate.
I'd venture to say (this being New York) at least one person in town yells obscenities out their window every single day - and its not appropriate to retaliate.
I already posted the text from the AP, but I'll summarize again:
1. The riders were trying to close down the highway for their own use
2. The guy in the SUV sped up and yelled at them (I guess he didn't want to get forced to a stop by the group of motorcycles...and I certainly wouldn't either)
3. The riders more aggressively get in front of him and force a stop.
4. During this event, a rider gets hurt.
5. According to the NY times, police are reporting that the riders started to beat the vehicle at this point.
6. Driver plows through a bike to get out of there.
7. Riders catch up to him and beat him.
I should point out that around half of the bikes don't even have plates, and I saw two that had something taped over their plates. The police confiscated 55 motorcycles BEFORE this event, and arrested 15 people BEFORE this event. These guys were up to no good, and this guy got in their way. I would have never stopped, period. If a swarm of mostly tagless motorcycles tries to impede my movement, I would do exactly what this guy did - speed up.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If you witness a felony hit and run, which is what any reasonable person who witnessed that SUV crushing a guy would probably think, then yeah, you can pursue and detain.
But, you can't beat him. They certainly crossed a line there, and that is deplorable. I understand why they were that pissed, but it wasn't justifiable.
wercal
(1,370 posts)They swarmed and forced the stop first...before any contact....actually causing the first contact.
Allegedly because this guy was yelling at them. Not justifiable
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That's legal.
You can stop traffic with your car. That's a moving violation.
His SUV made contact with multiple vehicles. The initial bump, arguably a shared responsibility contact. Yes, what the biker did is clearly an infraction, but the Range Rover should have been able to stop, and I suspect, he chose not to. Their speeds were so relatively low, the biker was able to put his feet down. Contact is inexcusable, and shared responsibility, even if the biker started it.
THEN he makes further contact, driving up over at bike, and a person.
If the decision to flee wasn't justifiable, that's felony hit and run. And the gaggle of onlooker bikers are, in my opinion, justified in assuming that is what happened. Most of them have limited vision of whatever precipitated the flight, just like the camera's vantage point. But they can sure as hell see the Rover go up over a person and a bike.
If I were there, I would have pursued. And you can see some of them trying to do so. The guy in the red track suit is trying to take a picture of his plate, for instance.
wercal
(1,370 posts)Last edited Wed Oct 2, 2013, 05:59 PM - Edit history (1)
"The initial bump, arguably a shared responsibility contact. Yes, what the biker did is clearly an infraction, but the Range Rover should have been able to stop, and I suspect, he chose not to"
I don't think the contact is a shared responsibility at all. I challenge you to watch the video again, and watch for some things:
1. A few dozen bikes are going all over the place, not maintaining a lane whatsoever. That is illegal.
2. The biker who initially makes contact with the SUV gets into his lane. Watch the video, and you will see this. That is illegal.
3. The biker in question gets in front of the SUV and deliberately slows down in front of it. Going less than the minimum. This act is illegal. Driving less than the state minimum hwy speed limit is illegal.
Then the contact happens. The biker has done several things that are illegal. The SUV driver has done nothing that is illegal. If you have ever been in an accident, you will notice that insurance companies and the courts tend to assign blame to whichever party was cited for doing something illegal - no 'shared responsibility', if only one party did something illegal.
Ok, now the initial contact has occurred. All the bike riders who stop in their lanes - if they aren't witnesses, stopping on the highway is illegal. All those bike riders who did witness the accident, but chose to stay on the road, instead of pulling off to the shoulder - that is illegal. The bike rider who was ultimately paralyzed, who parked his bike in the middle lane of traffic, in a manner that prevented the SUV driver from moving forward or off the road - that was illegal. The people who got off of their bikes, in the middle of the highway and approached the SUV - that was illegal.
So quite a lot of events have occurred, lots of laws have been broken...but the SUV driver still has done nothing illegal. Now at BEST, he's looking at several bikers illegally surrounding his vehicle, and one in particular illegally blocking his ability to pull off the highway and exchange insurance info, like a normal human being. Now at WORST, and according to the NY police, some of these bikers were illegally beating on his SUV.
Now here is the decision point. Would you sit there and take it? Illegally detained in the middle lane of traffic by a group of people surrounding your vehicle? With a 2 y/o in the back? I wouldn't. No way.
So far the NY police chief agrees with me...pending investigation. He was on ABC last night, and sounds a lot like me - he's looking at the totality of the circumstance, whether or not the driver reasonably felt threatened, etc. So far - 17 riders have been arrested, and 55 bikes have been confiscated, for doing illegal things. The driver hasn't been. Because the police chief (so far) believes he did nothing illegal.
EDIT - more info has come out, from the Boston Globe:
Though Mieses is a Massachusetts resident, he has never had a valid Massachusetts driver’s license for a passenger vehicle and has never applied for a motorcycle license, the Registry of Motor Vehicles said.
Registry records show that Mieses applied for a learner’s permit in 1999 and 2000, but that he never obtained a full license because he failed to pay fines imposed after he was ticketed for speeding in Lawrence in 1999. His last contact with the Registry was in 2001, when he obtained an identification card, registry records show.
Since 1999, he has been ticketed by police 16 times, in Lawrence, Methuen, Roxbury, Andover, and New Hampshire, according to registry records.
In June, the Registry notified the National Driver Register that Mieses was a habitual traffic offender whose right to drive in Massachusetts was revoked until 2017, records show
That's right - the guy who got run over was illegal, just being on the road in the first place.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Of the two arrested for this, they released one and have not yet filed charges on the other, at least for now.
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/10/02/us/new-york-bikers-attack-video/index.html
"On Wednesday, misdemeanor reckless endangerment charges against motorcyclist Allen Edwards were dropped. The 42-year-old biker had originally faced charges of reckless endangerment, criminal mischief and menacing, the New York City Police Department said."
That can change, of course.
I agree that most/all of the behavior you described as illegal is in fact a moving violation. However, there is apportioned blame in many instances similar to this. For instance, if that bike was broken down in the lane, even though he is unlawfully blocking the lane, the SUV could be ticketed for failure to avoid an accident. (The normal charge when you rear-end someone) Keep in mind, the bike just slowed down, he didn't lock a wheel up or anything. That was absolutely avoidable, in my opinion. This may vary from state to state I suppose, but blame is apportioned all the time in my state. If you can reasonably avoid a wreck and you don't, you're going to eat some of the blame. I see shared responsibility claims all the time. Someone can stop, and that might be a ticket-able infraction, but that doesn't give anyone carte blanch to rear end them, if they can avoid doing so.
"Now here is the decision point. Would you sit there and take it? Illegally detained in the middle lane of traffic by a group of people surrounding your vehicle? With a 2 y/o in the back? I wouldn't. No way."
I would not interpret that as a clear threat. (I wouldn't have rear-ended that guy either, but lets say I accidentally did) Until a clear threat materialized, I sure as hell wouldn't power out, through a person, and a couple bikes. Now, it's possible there was a threat, beyond just the number of people blocking the road. I don't know. I don't see it on the video, I haven't seen any other videos that support it, and the driver, and the people identified thus far, are alleging entirely opposite things.
So, I reserve judgment, giving both the bikers and the driver the benefit of the doubt on the threat piece.
wercal
(1,370 posts)Really? I think that might be a wee bit of an understatement.
Here is how the police characterize it:
1. Reckless endangerment
2. Endangering the welfare of a child
3. Reckless driving
This is what the man (Christopher Cruz) was charged with.
You are trying to correlate this with a normal accident. It wasn't normal. It was road combat. Ergo, the multiple charges against Cruz.
Lien (the SUV driver) has not been charged with anything, concerning the initial accident...and there have been no indications from police that it is even being investigated.
Why? Because the initial contact is clearly, 100%, without question, Cruz's fault. Again - this is why he was arrested.
Just slowed down - please.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That bike could stop in about 10 feet if he wanted to. He's compression braking. And not very hard. The brake lights only come on for a second, the rest is engine braking, because he rolled off the throttle. That's nothing. You can stop that bike so hard it'll stand up on the front wheel if you want to. Rider didn't do that. He let off the gas, essentially. I maintain, in my opinion, there's no way they should have made contact, even if the rider is A) being a dick and B) breaking the law. I agree with you, that brake-checking someone like that is illegal. But that's a fine, not a free pass to rear end him, and the distances and speed involved do not prevent the Rover's driver from avoiding that contact. He gently bumps the rider. (And this is why that is not the guy with the broken legs/severe injuries. He was pretty much fine.)
"You are trying to correlate this with a normal accident. It wasn't normal. It was road combat. Ergo, the multiple charges against Cruz."
The riders allege that the driver also engaged them with foul language and following closely. That puts this whole thing into the realm of road rage, and nobody's coming out of that squeaky-clean. The police have explicitly not ruled out ticketing the driver. They are still looking at all aspects of the incident. I predict, but will have to wait and see, that the driver will get a 'failure to avoid' ticket, AND the rider will get a couple tickets on the merge, and intentional slow-down.
I disagree with the characterization of combat, I don't think the rider intended to make contact at all. If he had, he probably would have pulled alongside and kicked the rover or tore off a mirror, etc, instead. I don't know if the driver meant to make contact or not. I can see nothing of his body language or behavior inside the car. Maybe he thought if he just kept going slow and steady, the rider would give way, as, legally, he should have given way.
But, I am inferring intent. I acknowledge that I cannot know for sure. I only know my opinion of the video events. I can see the body language of the rider, I can't see it of the driver. I can see the initial contact, I can't see what happened just prior to the Rover driving over the bike and the dude.
Maybe it was justified, maybe not. I tend to assume not, because I take a dim view of a person using a ~5,400lb vehicle intentionally against a human in a bid to escape something that may not have been a life-threatening situation. It's roughly analogous to using a gun against an unarmed aggressor, which people here on this site usually take a dim view of, and argue about intent. I'm not saying the driver couldn't have felt threatened and justified, I just say the video doesn't support that claim. There may be more evidence. He may have been in a position to justify it. Remains to be seen.
As for the riders, the video shows them being a pack of douchebags and violating a bunch of traffic laws, and later on, behaving like vigilantes. As a rider myself (and a driver, AND a concealed pistol license owner) I deplore all that behavior, and they should be held accountable for that.
I just don't see the driver's response as justifiable, not given the publicly available evidence thus far. That may change. A trial may even be required to flesh all this out and test the claims of the riders against the driver. In fact, it looks pretty inevitable at this point.
wercal
(1,370 posts)I'll eat my hat if the driver gets a failure to avoid ticket. I can't re-re-re-explain it any more clearly. The rider was acting in a menacing manner - which is why he was arrested. The driver is not obligated to play along in this mad max episode. He just isn't.
I design roads for a living...and have taken classes on the nature of public ROW. One of the central principles, embedded in many of our laws, is an absolute prohibition against unlawfully impeding somebody's movement in the ROW. This was more akin to unlawful detainment bordering on kidnapping than a typical traffic accident. You see, you just. Flat. Dont. Get to force somebody to stop on the ROW. Period. If you think about the meaning of the term 'right of way', you will start to understand that. We all have an unquestionable right to move freely in the public row. It exists so we don't have to cross all over each other's private property, charge each other tolls, fence each other out, etc. It is set up to instead offer freedom of movement in this nation and is tiee to the notion of 'freedom' and 'free country'...especially with prohibitions that not even the states can prevent free movement across their borders.
When dozens of bikers surround me, menace me, recklessly endanger me, recklessly endanger my child, and attempt to prevent my legal and free movement on the ROW, they are violating my rights, and violating the spitlrit of this right as codified in many of our laws. On the open seas, it would not be a stretch to compare this to piracy. They don't get to detain me. I do get to keep moving. I do get to consider an attempt to detain me as dangerous....and a threat of severe bodily harm or death to me. So, I get to use deadly force to get out of the situation.
So far, the police chief agrees with me.
someone made total and complete sense around here.
+ whatever you want.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)The motorcycles, in mass (before the crash), forced him to slow down and then stop in the middle of the street. That process caused the SUV to hit the motorcycle. The clearly aggressive riders then surround the SUV. Fuck them.
The SUV driver was under no obligation to stick around to find out what the aggressive mob had in store for him. He shouldn't sacrifice his own safety for the benefit of the folks that purposely caused the mess in the first place.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I'm talking about the Rover going up over a bike and a human being.
Many of the bikers have limited visibility to the incident at the initial bump. Just like the camera's vision is limited. But they, like the camera, can see that SUV drive over a bike and a person. And it just keeps on going.
If my vantage point was limited like the camera and I was there, I would have pursued. I would not have beaten him, but I damn sure would have pursued. And my helmet/communications linkup on my bike would allow me to call state patrol and start giving them location info and plate. Something I have had occasion to do in the past.
If I was sitting on my bike, and saw what that camera saw, I absolutely would have pursued.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)I'd hope you would never do that. They, as a group. started this mess. The SUV's driver was justified in fearing them. The riders' later actions pretty much showed his fear was rational.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They were not harmed. I feel that tends to discount the fear for his wife/child in retrospect.
The biker's actions in response are deplorable. My concern is that the initial flight by Mr. Lien doesn't appear justifiable, and I point to the guy with the broken back as showing that concern is valid.
As for Mr. Lien's safety specifically, I have to take into account the circumstances changed after he ran that guy over. It's no longer a 'bump/heated exchange of words/possibly people thumping on his car.'
After that point it's multiple vehicles hit, and a guy crushed on the ground, and an apparent hit and run. That changes the equation considerably.
But again, I do not know how the people around the SUV comported themselves after the initial bump. Mr. Lien and the bikers who have been quoted by the media, are at 100% opposite opinions on that, and I have no evidence by which to discriminate between the two.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)regardless, their behavior was still very aggressive which naturally intimidated the SUV driver. Their aggressive behavior caused the crash. They cannot be trusted. They were a mob with a mob mentality.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I take that data point into consideration. Not an entirely mindless mob.
Still, I do regret that they physically attacked him. They should have done no more than detain him until police arrived.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)but that was obviously impossible. The police are looking for them.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I would predicate that need on events that transpired AFTER he ran someone over, not before. (And I am talking about the fellow crushed, not the initial bump)
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)Yeah, that's just what to expect from a mob that has just spent the last hour driving unlicensed, non-street-legal vehicles through NYC, taking pains to conceal their identity, while racking up a laundry list of dozens, if not hundreds of moving violations. Do you also regret that they didn't invite him out for a nice luncheon while they politely exchanged insurance information?
Oh, and I like how he's a monster for accidentally hitting the one poor bastard dumb enough to try to blockade a freaking Land Rover with a motorcycle, while they show admirable restraint for not also beating up a toddler.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)+1
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)There was a fender bender, and the driver of the SUV stopped after it happened. The bikers then attacked his car, which was why he fled.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585
But I'm sure those bikers are just misunderstood, right?
frylock
(34,825 posts)your condescending bullshit aside, it's likely something occurred PRIOR to that incident which was clearly caught on the video.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)Nothing justifies stopping traffic en masse and threatening a family in a car. If something had happened then they could just as easily have taken down his license plate number and sought justice the correct way.
Or are you saying that vigilante justice is okay if you're on a motorcycle and feel "wronged?"
frylock
(34,825 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The bicyclists did what you say these bikers had no right to do. They stopped this Subaru.
http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2008078611_criticalmass29m.html
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)because they are much bigger and crush me like a bug.
Why can't the motorcyclists give deference to cars and SUVs?
It is the arrogance and ego of the motorcycle crowd that makes them the best organ donors.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)I do the same not because I might get crushed but I know the blind spots in trucks. When I drive my bike, my head is on a swivel due to idiots that drive cars and do not even look for bikes. We all pay taxes. We ALL have the same rights to the roads and we ALL need to follow the rules and laws. No one is better than the others.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)When that many bikes are together, they are supposed to use common sense and protect themselves by riding in a simple 2+2 or stagger formation with a leader or leaders providing lookout, directing turns or lane changes, etc...THAT is how cars/trucks/semis get some idea of how many there are while keeping spatial awareness...I've seen more organized 'rides' from bad kiddies riding trikes at daycare...
frylock
(34,825 posts)does deference to cars include getting moved out of lanes that I have the full right to traverse? does deference mean just allowing cars to pull out of driveways, or make left turns in front of me? if you're talking about lane splitting, that is completely legal in the state of CA. I have a better solution: PAY FUCKING ATTENTION WHEN YOU DRIVE!
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)And seeing some of the other jackass antics on public streets from that rider's scrubbed youtube channel, these motorcycle "clubs" could use a serious re-evaluation of exactly who they are and what they want to be...
energumen
(76 posts)im with the car driver on this one. Admittedly that was a short portion of the ride but it was not the structured procession of riders adhering to laws and safety procedures it should have been. at least it did not appear that way to me.
booley
(3,855 posts)somehow I didn't do anything like this.
Whether these groups were formed with the intent to beat anybody up or not, this one did.
whopis01
(3,491 posts)So that sounds like he did more than just run over their bikes.
Response to MirrorAshes (Reply #53)
Glassunion This message was self-deleted by its author.
Response to frylock (Reply #44)
name not needed This message was self-deleted by its author.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)The worst thing, the tape runs 6+ minutes, the occupants have called the cops and none are ever seen. In NYC, a cop shouldnt be THAT far away from anywhere.
* Its a black guy who begins beating the window with his helmet, too.
Scuba
(53,475 posts)
yuiyoshida
(41,818 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Once upon a time they actually had to *prove* shit took place...Now they can just cache youtube vids and tweets
ffr
(22,665 posts)
yuiyoshida
(41,818 posts)
The Wizard
(12,534 posts)cause some guys to do really stupid shit.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)this is that story.
Watching the video alone, it seems like a straightforward case of another SUV driver with road rage/tailgating.
Then I read the spin from various news sources, painting the driver as the victim, and I'm just like, WTF. But whatever...
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)You can't tell anything from the video about what exactly started this.
But thanks for your confirmation bias, you are no better than the folks who automatically label the motorcyclists as the worst drivers, etc....
7962
(11,841 posts)When he stopped, the bikers began banging on his car. Thats why he left.
I guess this is why eyewitnesses are considered unreliable.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Maybe I'll take another look, but if the SUV is driving so close to the biker that he hits him, he is automatically to blame, and not just automatically, but I was taught to ALWAYS keep a healthy distance between my vehicle and others.
And I've driven on the West Side Highway, and I know that SUV drivers on that can be just insane and psychopathic - not that this particular one was, but that is how many of them drive.
7962
(11,841 posts)He pulls up next to the car, then pulls in front of it and slows and you see the suv come up on his rear.
To me, anything you can do in an SUV you can do in a van, which also wont roll over.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)They may have been trying to get him to stop from one hit and run already.
The video edit/Start time could be deceptive, or possibly honestly just not the whole story.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Riding *on* the dividing line, inconsistent speeds, going 3-abreast in a single lane, etc. etc...Safety is a two-way street, incidentally...
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)In fact, the bikers were all LONG gone before then...
There's blame to go all around: The bikers for general jackassery and bad riding on the highway, the guy for fleeing the scene, and the bikers again for the assault and property damage...
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)....hit and run, I'll take it.
Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #57)
closeupready This message was self-deleted by its author.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I'm sure just to exchange information.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)There is your crime.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)I hope you're not a rider yourself, because your eyesight sucks. The bikers very clearly, STOP AND ENCIRCLE HIM. They stop in the middle of the road, where there is no stop sign and no light. They hold up traffic to the point where another white SUV has to go around them.
Sorry, but if my family's in the car and I'm encircled by a gang of dumb ass bikers like that, it's on. Any biker that gets too close to me is going to be red paint on the asphalt. Had that been me, at least several of those idiots would not have been going home after that.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)That's the unanswered question. Hit and run can be a felony, and something may have transpired before the white bike risked and made contact trying to stop him.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)The biker gang then proceeded to attack his car, which was why he fled.
http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585
Google is your friend, if you're smart enough to use it.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I SEE the white bike slow down in front of him, and make contact.
What I don't know, is why the White bike was trying to stop him. Was this road rage tit-for-tat that escalated into physical contact, or was there already physical contact when the recording starts rolling?
Fucking google, what the hell is wrong with you.
I love that initial reports are 'findings of fact' for you. Because the initial reporting is always 100% accurate.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)30 or 40 of you can just stop in the middle of the road and encircle a family and behave in a threatening manner towards them because you have a "good reason."
Could you by any chance point it out to me?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I see what appears to be a felony hit and run. I see no damage to his vehicle at that point. Certainly, his window was not smashed in. His tires are ok. I cannot see what transpired, and don't pretend you can either.
As for stopping him after he runs over the bike, it's called Civil Arrest. If you witness a felony in progress, yes, you can do that.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)Appears to be a deliberately caused accident.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)At that speed, with that much braking, there's really no excuse for the contact between those vehicles, even though, I feel the bike rider committed a moving violation. What he did wasn't legal. But it doesn't justify contact between the vehicles. They're doing less than 20mph when that happened. The SUV should have been able to avoid that.
That's not a 'brake check' as I know them, actually. Usually its a bit more... dynamic. The biker didn't have authority to stop him, and he was cited for it, appropriately. Given the speed, I would have expected the SUV driver to be ticketed for failure to avoid an accident. You're not always in the clear when you rear end someone, even if they did stop for XYZ reason.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)you?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I am, however, interested to see where you intend to go with this line of reasoning.
Because we still have conflicting testimony on how scared Lien should or could justify feeling, and no video evidence to support either side.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)and behave in a threatening manner to a man with his family in the car because you feel you've been wronged somehow?
I don't really care why they stopped him. Unless he killed one of them or did some serious damage, they have NO RIGHT TO DO SO.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I have participated in stopping drunk drivers, and hit and run drivers, in my car, and the police have thanked me, thank you very much. I have copies of the police reports too.
You witness a felony in progress, you can act to stop the person who caused it.
You don't know what happened before the video shows the white bike/backpack/white shirt guy get over in front of him. He may have hit someone, or it could be a 'hey man, you didn't leave me enough space' sort of thing. You have no idea. You are speculating just like everyone else.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)and all went on a high speed chase, putting everybody else in danger so you could feel like a big man and get props from the cops?
No? You didn't do that? You didn't go on a high speed chase and put countless innocent lives in danger? And then when you caught up to your victim, you didn't just start beating his windows out before pummeling him and slashing his face with a knife?
Oh well, once again. I'd say that's quite a different situation. Of course in your mind I'm sure it's exactly the same.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)You fucking bet I have. And no, they did not discourage me from following. And no, I was not issued a ticket. And yes, she WAS issued a citation for hit and run.
You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)A the end of the day, you didn't walk up to the offender and slash their face with a knife. That's what these punks did here. Your attempts to paint them as victims are both pathetic and sad. Even if they really were the victim of of a hit and run (which I seriously doubt), they stopped being the victim the minute they did that.
And I will point out that there is NOT A SINGLE SHRED OF EVIDENCE that's that's what happened. All available reports are that it was a simple fender bender that then resulted in this man's car being attacked.
So keep spinning more fantasy if it pleases you. But just so you know, it's really stupid.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)bike.
I do not know what happened then. Maybe the bikers were out of line. Maybe the driver was. Maybe they threatened him. Maybe they were holding him till the cops got there. You have no fucking clue at this point, and are assuming, based only on the number of people involved that the driver must have felt threatened. A bullshit position.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)and the bikers mistook the SUV for that. Yeah, maybe it was that.
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)No, we don't have what happened before on video, but we do have very clear evidence of a large group of people encircling--TRAPPING--a family of 3 in the middle of the road.
It is simply a denial of facts to portray it as anything else. Continuing to defend them simply paints you as someone who might enjoy threatening others as well, since you seem to approve of their behavior so readily.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Until the cops show up, that was the scene of an accident which you CAN see on the video.
Who cares if he's surrounded. Are they pulling him out of the car? Injuring him? His family? You don't know.
MirrorAshes
(1,262 posts)Was it you in the video? I really can't imagine why someone would go to such lengths to defend the indefensible. Way to go, terrorize-a-family-on-the-highway-guy. That takes some real brass.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So the driver certainly effed up there. BUT, I do not know what transpired before that.
I also do not know what transpired while he was surrounded. Neither event is captured on that video. I will not judge either the driver, nor the riders, until I know the whole story.
I'm willing to condemn what they did, IF and when the evidence is clear.
Response to AtheistCrusader (Reply #89)
closeupready This message was self-deleted by its author.
Jenoch
(7,720 posts)The SUV driver was not 'driving so close' to anything. The biker moved in front of him and hit his brakes. This entire incident was started by the asshole bikers.
ProgressiveJarhead
(172 posts)Our group does not ride like that. We ride cruisers and usually have great turn outs for charity runs. Our members that have been injured were hit by distracted or aggressive drivers. Two weekends ago three of us were out in the country for a lunch ride and were passed (illegally) by a group of crotch rockets. We came upon a crash scene on the way home and learned later than one had been killed in a separate crash. WE DO NOT ride like that.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)That's how I'm seeing the footage.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)They aren't passing him or riding alongside....they are clearly starting a blockade. There is no reason for that guy to be that close....he's looking to get hit!
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Cheers.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I won't hold my breath.
Good day to you, sir.
Response to ProudToBeBlueInRhody (Reply #28)
closeupready This message was self-deleted by its author.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)
BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)Riiiiight.
The Stranger
(11,297 posts)One of the motorcycle riders decelerates right in front of the SUV driver and initiates the contact. It is right there on the tape. They then block his path and threaten him, violating every conceivable traffic law in the process and endangering everyone else on the highway.
I mean, I'm certainly no fan of Range Rover drivers, but this isn't even close. And trying to paint these wannabe Hell's Angels (who are lucky the Range Rover didn't have a weapon) as victims, is completely asinine.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)Why does the one biker brake directly in front of the SUV? We don't know but it seems more likely that they had some complaint about his driving and were trying to stop him than they just picked him at random and decided to test his brake skills.
What I don't get is why ride your motorcycles into Times Square ? Traffic is horrible (no matter what you are driving) and there is no place to park or pee. Why not ride in the Palisades, the Catskills or southern CT where you can open it up and have some fun?
LisaL
(44,972 posts)telclaven
(235 posts)That about sums up 'what happened before'. And yes, they likely do have a complaint about his driving: he was driving 'on THEIR road! the NERVE!'. These are the same group that blocked entrance ramps to keep drivers from getting onto the roadway so they could ride like fools.
Fuckers deserve being crushed under the wheels of justice, but I guess an SUV will do.
KurtNYC
(14,549 posts)they want to be free to ride their machines...
(to be clearer: not defending them, just saying something happens before this video starts and I wonder what it was)
secondwind
(16,903 posts)
Unknown Beatle
(2,672 posts)But someone posted on NBCNews.com that one of the bikers that the SUV ran over has died.
Response to Unknown Beatle (Reply #25)
Post removed
snooper2
(30,151 posts)It's a meme
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I need more evidence to determine for sure.
alcibiades_mystery
(36,437 posts)In which case, the man has a right to retreat from the situation and get his wife and daughter (and himself) to safety.
He clearly left the scene of the initial accident and caused further damage, and left that scene as well. Whether he did so criminally, or in a legitimate attempt to defend himself and his family, remains to be seen. Certainly, the bikers' actions subsequent to his departure would be useful evidence in determining whether his initial departure was a matter of self-defense against an angry mob. You stay at the scene of an accident, but you have no duty to subject yourself to attack for that reason, much less your two year old child.
LiberalFighter
(50,777 posts)or make driving for others more difficult.
BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)The clip is filled with unlicensed dirt bikes.
frylock
(34,825 posts)and it was plated. looks like the guy with the GoPro is also on a supermoto or an enduro.
BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)Tons of unplated bikes in these photos. In fact, most look unplated.
frylock
(34,825 posts)the yellow DR-Z with the plate on the back, or all the sport bikes with fender eliminator kits and the plates mounted under the fenders?
http://fs7.motosport.com/is/image/Motosport/CW-FEK-065_is?$NewPDP2$
BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)Or maybe even no identification:
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)frylock
(34,825 posts)just because you can't see it from a helmet-mounted GoPro doesn't mean that they aren't visible and readable in person.
BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)Must be “conspicuously displayed at the rear of the motorcycle”, Securely Attached, not swinging.
Must be securely mounted between 12 - 48 inches from the ground (when reasonable)
Must be clean and easily readable with no plastic or synthetic covering, may be mounted vertically.
http://www.troopers.ny.gov/Publications/Traffic_Safety/Required_Motorcycle_Equipment.cfm
Looks like a few of these fine citizens came up short in the "conspicuous" department. Or, more likely, imo, they just weren't plated. Reading these rules, it's doubtful that the Oregon plate you showed would be legal here. I'm on these roads all the time and have never seen one like that (but maybe that's the point!).
frylock
(34,825 posts)after watching several videos of the group ride it's pretty evident that there are some dirt bikes. I saw at least 1 YZ, a pit bike, and several quads. and yes, many of the riders had removed their plates. no question that the majority of the riders in that group were assholes. i'm not one to blame the victim, but I still question the judgment of the driver, who evidently sped up to get in front of the pack and cussed them out. he should've just let them ride through and got on with his life. but he certainly didn't deserve the beatdown he received. in any case, I do apologize.
BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)You raised good questions being a biker yourself. Enjoyed the exchange.
LiberalFighter
(50,777 posts)They did not imo observed appropriate driving either causing a major clutter.
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Read the comments under the video on youtube and people saying they need assault weapons with large clips/magazines to protect their family from something like this. I can sympathize despite being anti-gun.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)I wouldn't doubt it.
frylock
(34,825 posts)JI7
(89,239 posts)and turn it into the cops instead of a bunch of getting getting together to take him out and beat him up ?
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Someone flees a felony, you can legally attempt to stop them. Anything beyond that may be uncivil, but expected response when someone does something, and then flees.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)It very much appears the motorcycle caused the accident at the beginning of the video. The gang then surrounded and allegedly damage the SUV. The man had a right to flee for his own safety. There is so much the motorcycle riders did wrong in the video.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Until the SUV runs over the bike, there is nothing in that video of people damaging the SUV. Every rider in frame is looking at it, and you can't see the car. Every rider you can see stays put on their bikes. Hardly a mob. (Yes I See you used the word 'allegedly'.)
Once the SUV ran over a guy and a bike, all bets are off. Sorry. No I may not be objective about it. That's possible. I have chased vehicles myself, to vector in state patrol on the phone. You bet. And I can see a lot of these riders had a lot more on their minds than just calling the cops. But the only contact we can see, started with the SUV hitting a bike that brake tested him. There was no excuse for that contact at that velocity. None at all. Maybe stupid of the guy on the bike. Maybe it was warranted due to something that happened before the video starts, I don't know.
At the light, the guy who later breaks the window only opens his door. No property damage. There were allegations earlier that the SUV's tires were slashed. At that point in the video, either he has run flats, or the tires are not slashed. (I'd also like to know how they would differentiate between a tire slashed, or punctured by running up over the bike.)
Up until the second encounter at the light, I see no property damage, by the bikers against the vehicle. The smashed window was the first. (Though probably not the last)
Up to that point the SUV knocked down one bike. Ran over another. Broke a guy's leg. Fled the scene of an accident. All of that highly problematic for the driver. Regardless of whether the bikers behaved boorishly by brake testing him, etc.
Edit: I'd also like to point out the rider in the red track suit during the initial fleeing the scene, is fumbling with his cell phone, either trying to call 911, or trying to take a picture of his plate.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)According to the police, the bikers did assault the SUV before he took off. And since the accident was 100% the fault of the motorcycle rider, the SUV driver had every right to flee for self defense.
The rider that cause the accident is the same rider that broke his leg – in the accident.
http://abcnews.go.com/US/video-shows-motorcyclists-pull-driver-car-beat/story?id=20419705
The motorcyclists then began damaging the Range Rover and slashed one the tires, causing the driver to take off and flee north and then exit the highway as his tire deflated, according to Officer Christopher Pisano of the NYPD.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)cpwm17
(3,829 posts)He can't blame the victims of these thugs: the SUV driver and his family.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)Response to frylock (Reply #41)
Glassunion This message was self-deleted by its author.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)William and Authur's maggots ran off when the police came. They never filed a report.
The cops are looking all 30-40 of these lowly thugs.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)who are they??
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)is to William Harley and his boyhood pal, Arthur Davidson.
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)
cui bono
(19,926 posts)Astounding, actually.
Downtown Hound
(12,618 posts)Two or three people here are doing that. I hate SUV's and love motorcycles, and I'm totally on the side of the SUV here. Those bikers are nothing but domestic terrorists.
closeupready
(29,503 posts) snooper2
(30,151 posts)LOL-
SUV driver clipped, bumped one biker-
Bikers proceed to kick smash on SUV, slash one tire-
SUV dude takes off running over a bike and breaking leg of biker-
Bikers take off after him, opening the door at one point-
When he is finally trapped/stopped they smash up windows and attack driver-
SUV driver is not facing any charges-
For the record I've kicked in a door before when some asshole tried to run me off the road.
loli phabay
(5,580 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)the tires are holding air.
and during the chase, they appear to be holding air.
And the dents do not appear in the hood until after the window is smashed.
dookers
(61 posts)The stupid biker brake checked the SUV
actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)There is NO reason to own or operate a DEATHCYCLE!!!!!
Four wheels good, two wheels bad!
BeyondGeography
(39,345 posts)actslikeacarrot
(464 posts)...I was going to post directly after my original post about how suv's should be banned and whatnot, but something happened and I had to leave for a few minutes. Oh well, maybe next time.
Red Mountain
(1,727 posts)If he had wanted to he could have ended or at least severely impeded his pursuit. He showed a good bit of restraint. A twitch left and right and there would have been bodies flying. It suggests to me he was not the aggressor.
Driving over the motorcycles after the initial collision is understandable if not without consequences. He may face charges for doing that. Given the behavior after the initial event I would believe he felt threatened. It's not unreasonable to flee if you expect an ass beating. People die from that sort of thing and he had his family in the vehicle.
All in all from what information is available it does not seem to me that the driver of the SUV was the bad guy. He may have been at fault in the initial collision but that's not at all clear.
Jamastiene
(38,187 posts)I can see being pissed off at this certain group of bikers, because it does appear they are messing with, if not threatening, the SUV, but I wouldn't broad brush all bikers over what one group did. Most bikers I know are nice people who just enjoy riding. They drive responsibly and would not hurt people. I don't see the point in hating all bikers because of what one group appears to be doing.
pitbullgirl1965
(564 posts)the sweeping generalization of them is something I'd expect on freerepublic. Fwiw, I've heard bicyclist get harassed quite often too
I am dying to know what the heck happened. The bike slowed down in front of the SUV deliberately and it looked as if he wanted the SUV driver to hit him. That's just nuts. Then they stopped traffic, surrounded him and he ran over one of them.
Crazy all around.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)take your victimhood walking, pal.
snooper2
(30,151 posts)Want a flower?
BTW, I thought you weren't supposed to get online?
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Once called on their behavior, they run.
ffr
(22,665 posts)There's no mention of slashing tires and we cannot see any evidence of flat tires on the SUV, which stopped due to traffic, not because the tires had finally deflated. There may be conflicting accounts on striking the SUV prior to the RR running over the motorcycles as was speculated earlier. There is commentary though that suggests the SUV driver may have provoked the situation before what we see as one of the bikes pulling in front of it (0:40), as these large group rides tend to present a nuisance, as we can see by the road blockage. The rider he ran over appears to have sustained broken legs and is not dead, as was earlier reported also.
- Snip -
The encounter on Sunday between the S.U.V. driver and the bikers began at about 2 p.m., the police said, as the motorcyclists filled the northbound side of the highway in Upper Manhattan. Mr. Forde said after the official ride was canceled at the last minute on Sunday, he joined a large group that headed across the Brooklyn Bridge and up the West Side. There, they encountered the sport utility vehicle. He said the driver sped up when the riders approached and hurled obscenities at them.
As the video begins, the Range Rover can be seen in the center lane, surrounded on either side by motorcycles, some without license plates. One of the riders appears to slow down in front of the car and is struck, causing the group to stop and block the entire highway.
The police said the collision appeared to have been inadvertent on the part of the driver. Seconds later, some of the motorcyclists, most wearing face-covering helmets, crowded around the S.U.V. The police said some began attacking it, though that is not readily apparent in the video. At least one rider present, Rene Towles, 43, offered a different account.
“No biker became aggressive with the driver after the incident,” said Mr. Towles, who belongs to a Brooklyn motorcycle club. “People were just trying to find out what just happened.”
Moments later, the vehicle accelerates toward the riders who are blocking its path, crashing into several of them and appearing to roll over at least one motorcycle. The police said that the motorcyclist who had initially been struck sustained broken legs, but that no other serious injuries were reported... [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2013/10/01/nyregion/motorcyclists-assault-suv-driver-after-chase-uptown-police-say.html?_r=0"]NY Times[/URL]. <link>
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)closeupready
(29,503 posts)
tammywammy
(26,582 posts)Hollywood Stuntz is referred to in the article. If you Google "Hollywood Stuntz" that's the second link that comes up.
LisaL
(44,972 posts)Too bad for them they filmed most of it.
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)a bunch of punk ass ricer bikers who think they own the road. so some dumb fucker thinks it`s cool to drive in front of a suv and hit the brakes. so dumb ass hits the pavement and his little bitches are so upset they slash the driver. wow what a bunch of tough guys!
i've seen really bad ass bikers rolling down the road...two abreast in their lane and no fucking around. maybe those rice bikers should try that trick with some real bikers.
ffr
(22,665 posts)I haven't found that information mentioned by reporters or by the police. Can you post a link?
madrchsod
(58,162 posts)whopis01
(3,491 posts)Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/pack-motorcyclists-chase-man-suv-attack-upper-manhattan-street-fender-bender-west-side-highway-article-1.1471585#ixzz2gTSdW5PM
dookers
(61 posts)They do triple digit runs through the toll roads. One of the biker groups even have a SUV with a trailer that trails the biker group. If any cars try to pass, the SUV starts to swerve the trailer across the road. The cops here dont have the balls do anything about it before someone gets killed. I can see a truck driver getting fed up one of these days.
Anyways about the video. Looks like the biker group comes up from behind the SUV and then brake checks him. Pretty standard biker tactic.
leftyladyfrommo
(18,864 posts)Boy are the Highway patrol watching for those guys.
They are having a great ole time but it is just so dangerous for everyone else.
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Real nice bunch of fellas. There is no way they would break any traffic laws or act in a menacing and violent manner. Except at 1:10 when they attacked the prius driver. Or drove over the sidewalks where any little kid could walk out in front of them.
Face it, these bikeys are scum.
ProudToBeBlueInRhody
(16,399 posts)That Prius driver may have thrown a soy latte at them!!!!
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,311 posts)... self respect to self-delete their postings in this thread?
Nah! time to start spinning.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)Chased for 10 minutes on highway/city streets in broad daylight by hordes of bikers, dragged from his vehicle & beaten in the middle of the street in front of lots of people. Assailants just leave, unfettered. :/
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)instead of calling 911, he should have driven either directly to a police station, OR a place where police were guaranteed to be present...Because he was never going to outrun them...
I know, 20/20 hindsight and all that....
Bonx
(2,051 posts)considering the high profile situation.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Which I guess is a lesson for all of us.
dorkzilla
(5,141 posts)This is a thing they like to do...BLOCK traffic and do stunts. I'd like to call your attention to the dumbasses riding UP A SIDEWALK WHERE ACTUAL PEOPLE ARE WALKING.
Just a bunch of thugs...
pitbullgirl1965
(564 posts)D: D: Can you imagine if you're in a wheelchair or on crutches and this bike is roaring towards you? Or pushing a stroller? Walking your dog who then freaks out and runs loose? D: And cutting in between cars, passing on a double yellow, and wth about them surrounding that car?! They remind of Jugaloos.
I have to say that is amazing how they can ride on one wheel. How do they do it and why aren't they terrified?
Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)The SUV driver acted in self defense, the police determined this. Any injury to the motorcyclists were their own fault. These thugs have not filed a police report because they know they are criminals, parasites who terrorize the city.
hedgehog
(36,286 posts)a car in the same lane on either side at the same time.
K.O. Stradivarius
(115 posts)Some of the antics described here remind me of the Critical Mass losers and low lifes.
They too like to temp fate and peoples patience by being two-wheeling assholes: ignoring traffic laws, rules of the road, deliberately blocking intersections ("corking" , impeding traffic ("WE ARE TRAFFIC"... puh-leeze ), confronting motorists, etc.
Some people just need to smarten the fuck up before someone is killed.
JVS
(61,935 posts)LanternWaste
(37,748 posts)"Cops arrested one biker and were hunting for two more for beating and slashing a man in front of his wife and 2-year-old child after a wild chase through upper Manhattan," New York's Daily News reports. Christopher Cruz, 28, of Passaic, N.J., is due to be arraigned Tuesday...."
The SUV driver, 33-year-old Alexian Lien, was with his wife and their 2-year-old child, according to the Daily News. The newspaper says Lien "became the target of the brutal bikers when he accidentally struck one who cut him off on the Henry Hudson Parkway, triggering a wild 4-mile chase, cops said Monday."
"authorities are unsure whether the motorcyclists were officially affiliated with any group or club. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said today that the bikers were doing an annual ride through New York City.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2013/10/01/228075261/nyc-police-studying-shocking-video-of-bikers-attacking-driver?ft=1&f=&utm_content=socialflow&utm_campaign=nprfacebook&utm_source=npr&utm_medium=facebook
gopiscrap
(23,725 posts)Dawson Leery
(19,348 posts)Let a judge decide whether or not he is fit to stand for trial.
FurSure
(30 posts)Those bikers need to be taught a lesson or two...
gopiscrap
(23,725 posts)FurSure
(30 posts)
dookers
(61 posts)In this video, you can see them stop and start hitting a prius
These guys have shown a history being assholes on two wheels. Can't believe anyone is even defending these scumbags on this forum.
K.O. Stradivarius
(115 posts)At least in the old days, the community, neighborhood, locals knew how to deal with the problem.
Carolina
(6,960 posts)Also must admit, l love the 'little' street vigilantism depicted in that clip. If only... the bad guys always got such justice.
Carolina
(6,960 posts)except when it comes to repukes, but I have rarely encountered a good motorcycle driver.
In my experience, they speed, they weave between lanes and other vehicles with abandon and they are a menace. They forget cars have blind spots and just when a driver might think it's clear to change lanes and has doubled checked, one will come zooming up (from nowhere) causing a near or real collision.
I avoid them like the plague because they are accident causers and then will blame the vehicle driver for not looking out for them!
The video of this incident is appalling. One of cyclists causes a collision by cutting off the SUV and braking! What idiot does that when anyone with a working neuron knows that no 2-ton plus vehicle can stop on a dime. That "provoked" collision led the other he-men cyclists to swarm the SUV in a threatening manner. So the driver justifiably fled and to heck with anything is his way. He was in fight or flight mode, and since there was no way he could fight all those bullies, he did the natural instinctive thing and fled. That some cyclists were injured is their own damn fault. They were driving recklessly and without any concern for ANYONE'S safety. To further show their lawlessness, there is footage of them running lights in the city, swarming other cars (coming up on both sides, all around).
The SUV driver is the victim here... out with his family, minding his business on lovely fall afternoon when hell on wheels targets him!
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)difference between these idiots on sport bikes breaking many laws and other like myself that are older and on cruisers or full touring bikes. I have about 25K in my bike and I drive very carefully and follow all of the laws. I really hate the broad brush but these guys make all sport bikers look very bad. I do not think I saw any Harleys, let alone cruisers or touring bikes.
jsr
(7,712 posts)
ileus
(15,396 posts)in a more 2A friendly state. But the bikers knew there were easy victims...
How many youtube videos have we watched where crotch rocket groups are riding doing simple stunts and going down in traffic. It's all fun and games until someone gets hurt.
I really need a go pro for our dirtbike rides.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)Some friends of friends of mine are actually pretty heavy into the sportbike hoonage crowd...They're not a bunch I associate with...
Of course many of them are armed themselves, so I don't get the whole "think twice" thing...
seveneyes
(4,631 posts)When they can even approach that level, then they may be ready for the street.
Blue_Tires
(55,445 posts)I'm a driver and not a rider, but I've always been one of those "take it to the track" -types....
Somewhere Evel Knievel is looking down and saying "You call THOSE stunts??"
crim son
(27,464 posts)There are people here defending the cyclists? Un-fucking-believable. Those assholes are just fortunate I wasn't driving that SUV, as they would have terrified me to the point that I could not be responsible for how I dealt with their CLEARLY THREATENING GANG-LIKE, cowardly assault on a family doing nothing but minding its own business. Shame on you for trying to get technical about the whys and wherefores. These people should all be locked up as threats to society. Period.
Jeebus. This thread is evidence of why people like Zimmerman get off. Over and out.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Just because the driver isn't yet charged with anything doesn't mean he won't be, and doesn't mean he doesn't have a share in the blame here.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)This was posted by another DUer (whose name escapes me at the moment) on the GD thread about this incident. Take a look at the right passenger side front wheel.
This photo was taken by a bystander after the Helmet Camera Dude stopped filming and appears to be a group of bikers beating up the SUV driver though you can't see him in the photo. There is no tire on the metal wheel. I'm not seeing any other way that that tire could have been completely gone unless it was punctured or slashed while the bikers surrounded the family on the highway, as he had said and was lost during the chase either in pieces or relatively whole that couldn't be seen in the video . In the video it couldn't be seen what was happening to the SUV while it was forced to stop on the highway and surrounded by bikers. If bikers that couldn't be seen in the video damaged his car at that time - and I just don't see how that whole tire could have been lost otherwise - he had every reason to fear for himself and his family by accelerating away on a tire they punctured. The passenger side window is also shattered, there is other damage to the vehicle body, and that very well could have happened when the family was surrounded on the highway. But puncturing that one tire alone is reason enough for him to have raced off seeing as puncturing or slashing a tire at that time meant that they intended to hobble the vehicle so that the family couldn't escape them.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)rolling down the freeway.
Obviously for the tire to be completely missing at that point, as shown in the picture, it would have been slashed at the very beginning.
The SUV driver was right. There needs to be many arrests in this case.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The rim cuts through the tire, and then it separates.
So, do you think there's no chance of tire damage when driving up over a motorcycle? Because that is precisely the same wheel that did so, at the first encounter.
Capt. Obvious
(9,002 posts)Bonx
(2,051 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)The bike may have punctured the tire, or, when the tire came back down on the roadway, the bead may have failed. Pretty common offroading injury.
A poster I am discussing this with upthread did point out the time in the video the tread separates from the rim, so he eliminated the later opportunity at the light (second time he stopped) as a possible point where it could have been slashed.
So, either slashed, punctured by the bike, or unseated from the bead by impact. Still multiple possibilities.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)In the video footage there is a rather large group of bikers up very close to the passenger side of the car though it's difficult to tell what is happening since pretty much all you can see of the SUV of that point is the roof. Notice, too, all of the other passenger side damage like the shattered window where the wife is and all the denting of the body. Considering that what is happening in this photo is right after the driver side window was smashed, the driver pulled out and what appears to be a group of bikers beating him on the ground since he's out of the car at that point when is it most likely that all that damage to the passenger side of the car occur? Especially since the wife feels safe enough at the point this photo was taken to start getting out of the vehicle while her husband is being beaten? In this photo no biker is interested in the passenger side of the vehicle, and with what is happening in the photo is only seconds from when the driver window was smashed and the driver hauled out... so WHEN did all the damage to the passenger side occur if not on the highway? That passenger side damage could not have occurred and all the bikers and their bikes gone from the passenger side of the vehicle in the mere seconds it took from the end of the video just before the driver is hauled out and this photo was taken at any other time than when they had the SUV trapped on the highway before the SUV ran over the bikes and fled. And in the extremely most likely event that all that passenger side damage occurred while they were on the highway before the SUV ran anything over to escape isn't it most likely that the tire damage occurred ALSO at that time just like Lien said it did and that they were pounding on the car at that time just like he said they did?
Further, that tire finally flew off FAR down the road while the SUV was driving at speed at 3:04 in the video intact, and the part of the chase where you can see the SUV it is not listing, it's riding evenly and smoothly which would not have happened had the tire already been flat. Thus the damage to the tire had to have been a puncture that took time to bleed out all the air until the tire finally flew off at 3:04 in the video MUCH later than the time the bikes were run over.
Though there are other possibilities of how the tire was damaged and when given these facts, the most likely and most probable time that tire became damaged and how it became damaged is that it was deliberately punctured along with the other passenger side damage while the SUV was trapped on the highway giving more than enough reason for the driver to take off as he did running over the bikes and injuring that one guy JUST AS Lien said. Just the presence of that many bikers THAT close to the passenger side of the SUV while it was trapped on the highway without their damaging the vehicle at that time is plenty reason enough for terror and immediate escape.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Slow leak actually tends to support the idea of a puncture. Which could ALSO be malicious behavior, or the bike. I do not expect that, if the driver is correct, that someone injured the tire, that he would be in a position inside the vehicle to tell if it was slashed or punctured.
There is damage to the drivers side as well, and it does not appear in the video, only in the photos of the aftermath. (Left side hood apron dented)
The SUV is only surrounded for a few moments. Awful lot of alleged damage for a short span of time. The body language of the surrounding riders speaks volumes to me as well. None of the ones in the video even get off their bikes. They are just looking.
I remain unconvinced based on the evidence so far.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)It's still malicious behavior that is certainly terrorizing. JUST surrounding the vehicle and not allowing the driver to leave is terrorizing given that Cruz deliberately brake checked the SUV which he says himself did not even cause him to go down and how they had already been surrounding the SUV on the highway before that not allowing him to pull over or otherwise get away. You forget also that Lien's wife was sitting in the passenger seat RIGHT where that wheel is with a bunch of them RIGHT up close to the passenger side of the vehicle... do you honestly think that she wasn't telling her husband what they were doing or not paying attention to what they were doing???
What ELSE could they have been doing THAT close to the passenger side of the car if not damaging it JUST LIKE they have done to other vehicles in numerous other videos over the YEARS of them doing this? Or didn't you bother to look at even the ones I gave you about their behavior... where there are other bikers not involved, passing by it or just watching it? You say your more convinced that they WEREN'T damaging the vehicle because of the body language of the other bikers not doing anything but sitting on their bikes and looking, yet I GAVE you video of the same type of thing where bikers were pounding on a car that had the nerve to continue driving on their green light while these shitbags were running a red light and driving on the wrong side of the road where other bikers paid little to no attention to the shits beating on THAT car just the same way as the "body language" of the bikers in the SUV incident. Do you REALLY believe that just because there are other bikers sitting on their bikes doing nothing but watching means that there couldn't possibly be OTHER ones pounding on the SUV and damaging the passenger side? How can that be when even in this incident there are bikers doing nothing while OTHER ones are clearly pounding on the vehicle, breaking the window, and several hauled out the driver and beat him like in that photo where they are beating him yet other bikers are doing nothing. Given ALL of that, it's LUDICROUS to believe that OTHER bikers weren't doing anything to the SUV at all just because many of them weren't.
These guys have been doing this for YEARS. Even while this incident was going on there were other bikers blocking on ramps to the highway because their INTENT was to clear the highway to do their filmed stunts that they've been doing for YEARS. Their INTENT was to harass this SUV to get the hell off the highway he had the nerve to drive on while they wanted it cleared for their filmed stunts as they've BEEN DOING FOR YEARS. They do this throughout their ride on every road - intimidate and terrorize vehicles not getting out of their way when THEY want the use of the whole road as documented in the many many other videos of them which you have apparently not bothered to watch. Their annual illegal ride starts in Brooklyn and ends in them TAKING OVER Times Square. This year the police put up blocks at certain points along some of the routes to Times Square at least attempting to not allow them to get that far, they were warned of the blocks and the arrests that would take place and once again tried to take over the highway instead of getting caught before getting to Times Square which is how the police managed to still capture 15 other bikers and confiscate 55 bikes.
Getting back to the photo, there was far MORE time for them to have damaged the passenger side of the SUV by the time that photo was taken than there was for that damage to have occurred at the time of the breaking of the driver's side window and the driver being hauled out. There are no bikers at the passenger side of the vehicle at that time as seen in the photo save for one off his bike standing away from the vehicle watching the driver being beat up while the wife is getting out of the vehicle. As I said, there was no other time for all of that damage to have occurred AT THE TIME this photo was taken for it to have happened at any other time other than back on the highway before the SUV driver ran over anything trying to escape. It doesn't MATTER what happened to the vehicle AFTER this photo was taken since obviously we're going by what is happening and the damage seen to the passenger side AT THIS moment the photo was taken, and it could not have received all that damage in the very few seconds from the end of the video and his having been hauled out of the car. No bikers are at all interested in the passenger side of the vehicle at all including the one lone biker just standing there watching the beating which is why there are no other bikers or bikes on that side of the vehicle.
Therefore, that damage HAD to have occurred beforehand, and the only time it could have with enough time to do that amount of damage and what else we see in the video was on the highway when the SUV was stopped and surrounded. By the time this photo was taken there simply IS no other time it could have occurred, and in the video you CAN see a sizable group of bikers right up close to the passenger side of the vehicle on the highway though you can't see what they were doing, but for what other reason would they have been THAT close to the vehicle and off their bikes? Yet you are so determined to try exonerating the bikers despite all this information for no other reason than the bikers that sit on their bikes not doing anything even despite video I gave you of bikers pounding on a car while other bikers just watched or drove on past and the video of this incident where the vehicle is being pounded on and windows broken while other bikers weren't doing anything. Absolutely LUDICROUS.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)slashing tends more to show malicious intent. If that wheel was not applying torque from the drive train, AND the tire was damaged by driving over the bike, it would show a puncture, not a slash.
The media keeps reporting it as a slash, but the tire is long gone before the end of the beating, so they don't have opportunity to test that.
I disagree with your assessment of the timeline. There are bikers on all sides of the car at the end of the video. At that point the hood is not dented on the drivers side, and the passenger window is intact. So between that point where the video ends, and the photo was taken, someone clearly had time to attack the passenger side. (Though I agree, that tends to show she was inside the vehicle at the time, even though she wasn't injured, which is dick-ish of the bikers)
The SUV is stopped from :34 seconds into the video, to exactly :50 seconds. During that time, some of that duration doesn't count because of the white van passing it on the right, up to about :40 seconds in. So, basically, on that passenger side you have a 10 second window for the bikers to pull up, get off their bikes, bang/slash on the car, and for Mr. Lien to make his decision, and punch it chewie.
10 seconds is a pretty narrow window, but I will not argue that it is impossible. It just seems improbable to me.
I absolutely do not agree with your assertion that the damage on the passenger side had to occur during that 10-12 second window, and the later-on broken window on the passenger side strongly suggests it was attacked then, when the window was broken.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)Now you're trying to convince people that because it was most likely a puncture rather than a slash there's nothing nefarious in puncturing someone's tire rather than slashing it??? So, if I stick a knife point first into your tire creating a puncture that would cause the tire to leak out all the air and lose the tire instead of slashing it so it lost all the air immediately you wouldn't find that malicious? Do you realize how fucking ridiculous that is?
The media keeps reporting it as a "slash" because they have no bloody idea whether or not it was a slash or a puncture because that's the lingo that was used to describe someone deliberately knifing the tire just like many people say "wheel" to mean the tire or the combination of the tire and the wheel. What damn difference does it make if they slashed it with a knife or punctured it with a knife? NOT ONE DAMN BIT. BOTH are deliberate malicious attempts to disable a vehicle you fucking trapped on the highway that you want to use for your group's exclusive use since members of your group purposely blocked the on ramp and this SUV and the white van managed to get passed it which was what made them so pissed off at the SUV in the first place and why they surrounded it on the highway and purposely brake checked it to make it stop. In that one other video they pounded on a car that had the audacity to drive on their green light while they wanted to use the road running their red light yet you don't seem to think these guys would have the slightest malicious intent for a vehicle that bumped the bike of one of their group.
You're the one just convinced they couldn't have done anything to that SUV while they deliberately trapped it on the highway after deliberately causing it to bump one of the bikes despite evidence of their intent from YEARS of past history and TONS of video evidence of what they do to cars that just piss them off for doing nothing but BEING THERE. And you're convinced because of the body language of the bikers just sitting on their bikes not doing anything but looking DESPITE evidence that they do the same thing in other videos and many did the same thing while the driver was on the ground being beaten up. That's all it takes for you to believe that they couldn't have done any damage to the passenger side of the vehicle while they trapped it on the highway DESPITE the time that the large group RIGHT UP CLOSE to that passenger side had and WHY they were that close to it to begin with. That's idiocy or a deliberate attempt to find any bitty little nonsensical reason to believe that there was no legitimate reason for the SUV to flee as it did.
You're also the one that claimed it had to have taken time to create all that damage to the passenger side of the vehicle at the time that photo was taken yet there are no bikers or bikes anywhere near the passenger side of the vehicle, and once they had the driver out of the vehicle they were all focused on what was happening to him than the passenger side of the vehicle, and it only took mere seconds for them to break the driver's window and haul him out. You think that while he was being hauled out and beaten some invisible force of bikers had all the time in the world to cause all that damage to passenger side yet in that photo there is no biker near it, doing anything to it, and the only one that is even on that side is watching the beating with no interest at all in the passenger side because once they had the driver out of the vehicle like always happens all interest turns to what was being done to him. So WHERE was any time for them to do ALL THAT damage to the passenger side when there is no biker or bike there and paying so much non-attention to the passenger side that the wife opens the door and is starting to get out. You're the one that claimed it had to have taken time, but there is LESS time for all that damage to have taken place just before they hauled him out as well as get away from the passenger side of the vehicle all together. A big group, however, like the one that is right up close to the passenger side and off their bikes CAN create a lot of damage in a short space of time, and that big group DID have plenty of time while the SUV was trapped on the highway to create most if not all of the passenger side damage.
Despite all the evidence much of which you don't even acknowledge like the other videos and their history and what members of their group intended as to blocking the on ramp, etc. believe that that big group standing right up close to the passenger side did absolutely nothing at all at that time yet you have no excuse as to WHY they were so close to the vehicle at that time. It's as I said completely ludicrous.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I said if it's slashed, it's the bikers.
If it's punctured, its possibly the bikers, possibly a result of driving over the bike.
If the remains of the tire were recovered, it might show a puncture in the tread, as opposed to the sidewall. That Gen 2 rover wouldn't have been operating in 4wd under those conditions, so there's no torque to the front wheels to cause a slash if it ran over the bike and was damaged.
I am not trying to convince anyone it WAS a puncture over a slash. Do not dare put words in my mouth. I am pointing out that it is not a CERTAINTY that it was slashed, as there remains the possibility it was punctured. THAT is as far as I went. No further.
"The media keeps reporting it as a "slash" because they have no bloody idea whether or not it was a slash or a puncture because that's the lingo that was used to describe someone deliberately knifing the tire just like many people say "wheel" to mean the tire or the combination of the tire and the wheel. What damn difference does it make if they slashed it with a knife or punctured it with a knife? NOT ONE DAMN BIT."
Wrong, it makes a difference mechanically, and as evidence. If it was slashed, I have to withdraw the possibility it was a side effect of running over the bike. If it was a puncture, it remains possible it was a side effect of running over the bike, rather than nefarious action by the bikers.
"You're also the one that claimed it had to have taken time to create all that damage to the passenger side of the vehicle at the time that photo was taken yet there are no bikers or bikes anywhere near the passenger side of the vehicle, and once they had the driver out of the vehicle they were all focused on what was happening to him than the passenger side of the vehicle, and it only took mere seconds for them to break the driver's window and haul him out."
Yet, the window is broken. SOMEONE was attacking that side of the SUV. So your objection is factually invalid. I allow that it is POSSIBLE the vehicle was banged up at the first encounter. I simply consider the time allowance too compressed. HOWEVER, it is also possible for them to bang on the car without denting it, and STILL producing reasonable fear in the driver.
I'm just trying to get to the bottom of what happened, rather than jumping to conclusions. The rest of your venting is uninteresting.
"believe that that big group standing right up close to the passenger side did absolutely nothing at all at that time yet you have no excuse as to WHY they were so close to the vehicle at that time. It's as I said completely ludicrous. "
Calling BS on that. In the video, you can't see ANYONE standing on the passenger side, because it is simply not visible. There might not be anyone there at all. You have no evidence other than the 'Lien's claims that there was. The video simply does not see that far.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)No one here is so stupid as to believe that rubbish. You've fallen all over yourself to try excusing these thugs despite all the evidence you fucking refuse to acknowledge. Again, these thugs do this ride every year. They take over the roads. There are TONS of video of them some of which I gave you that show them breaking just about every law there is on the road driving extremely aggressively and even pounding on other peoples' vehicles for having the audacity to legally use the road with their own right of way. These shitbags tried to shut down the on ramp to the highway which is why you can only see the SUV and one white van along that entire stretch of road because those two vehicles got passed the blockade at the on ramp... they intended to shut down the highway to do their filmed stunts as they do every damn year. They were pissed off at the SUV driver for getting passed their blockade attempt and were deliberately chasing the SUV surrounding it so it couldn't get away from then when Cruz brake checked the SUV to stop it. Cruz did not even fall off his bike but merely stopped to supposedly "exchange information" for the bump as his own attorney claimed in court except that there was no intention to exchange information for the bump that did not even unseat him. There was no REASON for any of the other riders to get off their bikes in the road and "help a downed rider" because he WASN'T a downed rider at all as his own attorney claimed in court. His attorney said he only stopped and got off his bike to "exchange information" for the bump. NONE of the other riders needed to get off their bikes, yet many DID, and they did to harrass and threaten the occupants of the vehicle just as they have done every fucking year to any driver that doesn't let them have their illegal private use of whatever road they're on AS THEY HAVE DONE EVERY YEAR.
Further, Helmet Camera Dude admitted in a televised interview that Cruz's brake check was deliberate - he was even the one to call it a brake check which is why the media started using the term. You can also see in the video they pass another on ramp that other bikers are blocking, and Helmet Camera Dude waves them off to keep them continuing to block the ramp... with their high speed chase they didn't want those bikers blocking the ramp to stop blocking it and join in.
The police KNEW what they were doing, from previous years and this year attempted to at least block them from getting all the way to Times Square by setting up numerous points where they were able to nab 15 bikers and confiscate now 57 bikes. Most of these bikes are stolen, the ones with plates have mostly illegal plates, or no plates at all. Over 200 911 calls went into report these bikers for their thuggery and recklessness on the roads while all this was going on. Lien called 911 himself long before the brake check even occurred because of the blocking of the on ramp and the harassment for getting passed it.
And yes, you CAN see in the video a group of bikers on the passenger side of the vehicle and the tops of two or more helmeted heads at the roof line right up against the vehicle - freeze the frames and blow them up if you have to.
You claim to just want to get to the bottom of what happened but have throughout this thread continually ignored every single bit of evidence and history even that which was given to you. No one needs to put words in your mouth, you have a looooooong stretch of posts in this thread giving every absurd benefit of doubt to the bikers despite all evidence to the contrary, their blocking of the on ramps, their history of doing this ride every year, the numerous stolen unregistered and unlicensed bikes and riders including the git that got run over as he has had no legitimate right to ride ANYTHING on public roads since 1999 and is not eligible to be a legal driver until 2017 given his VERY long list of driving infractions. That shitbag had no legal right to even BE on the road on any kind of vehicle to begin with.
There is no question whatsoever despite your deliberate blindness to all evidence that these thugs harassed the Lien family for having the audacity to get passed their illegal road block so they could have the highway to themselves to do their filmed stunts just as they have every year and which is documented in their own videos all over the internet. But you have no interest in anything at all against these assholes even when put right into your face by numerous posters here and are still attempting to find some kind of fault with the Lien family for what is OBVIOUSLY a legitimate escape from harassing dangerous thugs whether they did any damage to his vehicle when they trapped them on the highway or NOT. The Liens had EVERY SINGLE reason to be terrified of these shitbags that were pissed off they got passed their illegal blockade of the on ramp, chased them down the highway, surrounded his vehicle, deliberately brake checked them to get them to stop and then harassed them further by TRAPPING them in a HUGE group some of whom where right up close to the passenger side of the car and probably the driver's side as well. Deliberate brake checking is usually an insurance scam or car jacking attempt, and even the police advise that you DON'T STOP unless an accident is so bad that you have to but call 911 or drive to the nearest police station for that very reason. Someone that deliberately brake checks you is trying to do you harm either financially or physically or both.
But you have throughout this thread absolutely ignored absolutely all evidence against these dangerous thugs that is so violently persistent you have me convinced utterly of one thing... you are either one of these bikers or know someone that is.
DONE with you.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)the position of those helmets?
"There is no question whatsoever despite your deliberate blindness to all evidence that these thugs harassed the Lien family for having the audacity to get passed their illegal road block so they could have the highway to themselves to do their filmed stunts just as they have every year and which is documented in their own videos all over the internet."
I have accepted, repeatedly, that what they were doing, from closing the right of way, to lane changes, etc, were all illegal. That is not interesting to the question of whether or not Mr. Lien was justified in running over a human being with a 5,300lb vehicle, deliberately.
"But you have throughout this thread absolutely ignored absolutely all evidence against these dangerous thugs that is so violently persistent you have me convinced utterly of one thing... you are either one of these bikers or know someone that is."
That is simply a lie. I have accepted evidence from other posters that clarifies what happened, such as the time at which the tire separated from the rim. Prior to that, I maintained it was possible the tire was slashed at the final encounter, because at that time, there was no evidence the tire was flattened at all. Once I saw the picture of the bare rim, not only did I accept that evidence that the tire had to be slashed or punctured earlier, I actually pointed it out to the person I was discussing it with at the time, and that poster responded with the time in the video that the tire/rim separation occurs. I have accepted several counter-points and pieces of evidence. So do not pretend to be all indignant and righteous, when you are lying about my position.
"Someone that deliberately brake checks you is trying to do you harm either financially or physically or both."
Or they are just being a dick. The financial brake checks are considerably more dynamic than the brake tap, roll-off of the throttle you see in the video. But the rider is compelled by law to stop, after making contact. His bike, and he are ok, but he undoubtedly damaged the bumper of the SUV. His actual motive could be a range of doing what is right, or just be an asshole and yell at the guy, I do not know. I cannot see what he does, after that point in the video. Neither can you.
"The police KNEW what they were doing, from previous years and this year attempted to at least block them from getting all the way to Times Square by setting up numerous points where they were able to nab 15 bikers and confiscate now 57 bikes. Most of these bikes are stolen, the ones with plates have mostly illegal plates, or no plates at all. Over 200 911 calls went into report these bikers for their thuggery and recklessness on the roads while all this was going on. Lien called 911 himself long before the brake check even occurred because of the blocking of the on ramp and the harassment for getting passed it."
None of this is interesting to the question of whether Lien is justified in running over a person with his vehicle intentionally. The bar for justifiability would be the same if he had instead chosen to shoot the guy. Unjustifiably running someone over is assault with a deadly weapon, just like a gun. I am being consistent in my application of digging for facts, regardless of whether this is Lien's situation, or Zimmerman, or any other number of instances of self defense with and without firearms. I don't care if my consistency upsets you.
"You've fallen all over yourself to try excusing these thugs despite all the evidence you fucking refuse to acknowledge."
Another lie. A double-lie in fact. I have acknowledged every scrap of evidence that has been brought up so far, and I have NOT excused the bikers at all. In fact, I have acknowledged multiple times that they may bear 100% responsibility, and that Mr. Lien may have been completely justified in fleeing. Several times. In this thread. Do not lie about my position.
"pounding on other peoples' vehicles for having the audacity to legally use the road with their own right of way."
Are each of those people whose car's were pounded on justified in running over a human in response, or is there possibly a continuum of force/reasonable response here?
"NONE of the other riders needed to get off their bikes, yet many DID, and they did to harrass and threaten the occupants of the vehicle just as they have done every fucking year to any driver that doesn't let them have their illegal private use of whatever road they're on AS THEY HAVE DONE EVERY YEAR."
How many, exactly, is 'many' riders?
"And yes, you CAN see in the video a group of bikers on the passenger side of the vehicle and the tops of two or more helmeted heads at the roof line right up against the vehicle - freeze the frames and blow them up if you have to."
I see a couple helmets, probably only two, but they could be in front or beyond the vehicle. I can, however tell you what I DON'T see. I don't see those helmets moving in a excited manner. I don't see arms rising and falling, I don't see them charging toward, or doing anything like you would expect if they were exerting physical force.
I have repeatedly asked and hoped for additional footage. (There are more cameras mounted on more helmets) Because I would very much like to clear up this point, and despite your claims to the contrary, I have repeatedly expressed the possibility that they DID intimidate Mr. Lien in a reasonable manner as to cause him to fear for his life or that of his family, which could justify his subsequent actions. I just don't assume it with the evidence at hand.
There are some people, even some right here on this forum, that actually expressed that George Zimmerman might have been justified in using deadly force, because of his nose, and the back of his head. I didn't believe their claims either.
An exercise of deadly force in self defense MUST be justifiable, whether it be done with a firearm, a motor vehicle, or a 12" floppy rubber dildo. It doesn't matter which it is.
If you wish to continue, please first cease misrepresenting/lying about what I said upthread. It's all there for everyone to see.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)The End.
>>>CLICK<<<
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)and then goes up and looks at my actual posts, can see you are misrepresenting what I said.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)Broken legs would be the least of their worries.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Feel free to cite posts otherwise.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)and they're not all of one mind. Essentially the SUV driver had to trust everyone in the whole crowd, which is difficult since the aggressive riders, as a group, maliciously caused the accident in the first place. There was then a very dense crowd of these malicious riders surrounding his vehicle.
The SUV driver was out minding his own business when these assholes imposed their will on him. They then surrounded his vehicle in the middle of a busy street. It's time to leave.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)I agree with you, they are not all of one mind. Just before the SUV lurches forward, there's a guy in front of it, on a reddish bike. He moves. Gets out of the way, moves over to the right lane. Good thing too. About a second after he moves, here comes the SUV.
I just need to see what they did to his car in that 10-12 seconds it was exposed on the passenger side. I don't see anyone raising an arm over their head and bringing it down on the car or anything.
Everyone is just calmly looking.
I really wish the camera angle/vantage point was better. It would answer a lot of questions.
Edit: bike that moved is reddish, not black.
Edit2: Hey, I see a couple guys riding the same bike I have, KLR.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)there's no question about that. He was in panic mode.
I think what I would have done is lay on my horn for a couple of seconds before taking off. Perhaps it would have warned the riders directly in front. It's easy to think when you're not surrounded by a bunch of potential thugs.
I'm not sure if he needed to leave so quickly. Perhaps he needed the momentum to make it through the crowd. He's probably not the smartest driver since he didn't move to the right as the riders approached from behind. Maybe if all drivers refused to allow these riders to pass, they'd quit their trouble making.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)and boy, they did a lot. No argument there. TONS of improper lane changes, etc. The brake check. Blocking a right of way.
I was in the WTO riots in seattle, my Rodeo surrounded by pissed off people when the cops were advancing block to block. Honestly, I never felt worried about my own safety, or that of my wife. I was worried about property damage to my vehicle only. Fortunately calmer heads prevailed. We defused it, and carefully exited the situation.
I really, really wish people would be slower to anger, and slower to fear. Even if they had closed the road and done their stupid stunt bullshit, nobody HAD to go to the hospital over this. No one had to be in fear for their lives. No bystanders had to be terrified..
The whole thing is really sad to watch.
cemaphonic
(4,138 posts)I agree that it doesn't look like all that could have occurred in the 2 times the car was stopped after the initial contact. And honestly, while corroboration of the driver's testimony of damage to the car strengthens his case, it's not at all necessary. Even if they didn't touch the car at the beginning, swarming him, forcing a stop, and boxing him in is more than enough evidence of hostile intent for him to get the hell out of there as fast as possible. That shit is often a prelude to carjacking, robbery and kidnapping in many parts of the world.
This thread may be a damn trainwreck, but it is interesting to have a high-profile case like this with so much direct evidence available to the public.
booley
(3,855 posts)We have have had a rash of road rage incidents lately. Or maybe we have just become more aware.
Like those two guys with concealed weapons that shot each other.
I think the only difference motorcycles made (besides that the riders were usign them to engage in dangerous stunts) is that already being in a group they formed quickly into a mob.
miyazaki
(2,239 posts)With the knowledge that one does not 'fight a fight' that you know you cannot win, you flee if you are able.
This other fluffy crap posted here could very well have you and your family laid out on the highway brutalized, which
unfortunately happened to Mr.Lien. They tried to smash their way into the passenger side as well, see the pics at
'Justice For Alexian Lien' Facebook site. By making an escape to the city streets very well might have saved his family.
TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)The family involved in a chilling clash with a pack of motorcyclists broke their silence Thursday as police said they've identified a main suspect in the assault and expect him to surrender within the next day.
The 37-year-old suspect was captured on video using his silver-colored motorcycle helmet to break the driver's side window of a Range Rover he and other bikers chased on the West Side Highway before allegedly yanking the driver out of the car and assaulting him. The suspect is expected to turn himself in Thursday or Friday.
Law enforcement officials say detectives have been speaking with the mother of the suspect's six children and with other family members to work on a surrender.
The suspect has at least 21 prior arrests, some for drugs and weapons possession and robbery, sources said.
On edit: more interesting bits from the article...
Lien's wife made four frantic 911 calls sounding frantic in each during the encounter, and police say that in each call you could hear the bikers pounding of their car.
At least a dozen other bikers that surrounded the car have also been identified. The guy taking the video of the incident is believed to have deliberately stopped filming before the beating (well, duh) and claimed that this wasn't true but that the battery died at that point except there is more video afterward so police know he's full of it.
State Sen. Adriano Espaillat released new video of them taking over streets and sidewalks and took control of a gas station. People had to run into restaurants and shops in fear of being run down by the bikers.
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,311 posts)Where is the clown crusader?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)TorchTheWitch
(11,065 posts)There's a Good Morning America clip online that I watched early this morning that played 3 or 4... two of them recordings from LE that sounded like it came from talk to other officers asking for other units to assist. Try googling for it since it doesn't seem to be on the front page of Yahoo anymore.
penultimate
(1,110 posts)In fact, it would have been irresponsible for him to not flee. Let's imagine the driver had a gun with him and he decided to 'stand his ground' or whatever, then at some point some of the riders began to try to pull him out of his vehicles. If he started to fire on the attackers, how many here would be questioning why he did not attempt to flee? After all, he was in a lager SUV and they were in small bikes.
His fear that the bikers could turn violent was rational. Most of the bikers took removed their plates and were wearing helmets that gave them some form of anonymity. We've all seen what happens during riot situations when both the police and rioters feels like an anonymous part of a large group. Normally calm and civilized people can tun into violent creatures in such situation. He shouldn't have had to have waited until he was either unable to retreat or being physically assaulted. Again, if he had, and had he been armed, how many of those defending the bikers would be asking why he didn't just retreat?
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Their fear was rational.
At least they had far fewer potential attackers and members of the public to intervene along the city street after they were caught. It could have been really ugly if they were assaulted in the middle of the freeway:
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)So, every claim of tire(s) being slashed was bullshit. There is only one damaged tire on the car. The front right.
Right rear, left, and left front are all holding air in the aftermath.
As for dents on the vehicle, there is one: the left front hood apron. Happened after the driver window was smashed.
Beyond that, the passenger window is cracked but not bashed in, and the rear window was broken.
All damage that occurred AFTER Mr. Lien ran someone over.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/man-charged-with-key-role-in-nyc-motorcycle-suv-brawl-attorney-to-hotly-contest-case/2013/10/06/5103aed2-2ee4-11e3-9ddd-bdd3022f66ee_story.html
If that front right tire was punctured by running over the bike, what think you all about his justification to run over a person to 'get away'?
Bonx
(2,051 posts)Nope. The right front tire was slashed.
RE: "As for dents on the vehicle, there is one: the left front hood apron. "
Can't see clearly enough to judge that. Could be lots of minor stuff - from biker thugs beating on the vehicle - that doesn't show up in that pic.
RE: "If that front right tire was punctured by running over the bike, what think you all about his justification to run over a person to 'get away'?"
It wasn't but he was still justified. I would have done the same thing.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Examining how it failed would settle the question of whether it was slashed or not. But my objection was about the plural use of tires. The media repeatedly reported it as plural, but there is only one tire on the vehicle, on the flat bed tow truck, not holding air. (well, gone actually.)
I agree, there could be less severe physical damage, but does that justify running someone over? Again, this overlaps considerably with the use of force in self defense scenarios on the firearms side of the site. The windows weren't broken. There are no major dents at that point in the encounter. Is fearing for the safety of the wife/kid really that much of an issue? They don't seem to have made any major attempt to gain access to the car, until AFTER the first encounter.
I'll grant the bikers were totally being assholes, half of them are bike thieves anyway, broke all sorts of traffic laws, and they brake checked him (at low speed, but still illegal). And there were a lot of them, and many of them around his vehicle. And some were probably upset that he didn't stop so they could do their idiocy on the roadway. Granting all that, is Lien justified in running someone over?
I honestly question it. I would not have powered out through a person, under those circumstances. I would be concerned. I'd be pissed about any damage to the vehicle, and their inhibiting my freedom of movement. But I don't think I would run someone over for it. I certainly wouldn't shoot them. If I can't justify using a firearm in self defense in that situation, I don't think I can justify using a vehicle in self defense either. As far as I know, the bar to justifiably using either is the same.
And I still question whether that tire was slashed, or punctured. It's one tire only, and it happens to be the same tire that went over the bike. Not an unexpected result.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)They had no right to capture the SUV in the middle of the freeway. He had no reason to stop for the obviously hostile mob. There was no accident (he never went down), and the alleged contact with the motorcycle was 100% caused by a member of the already hostile mob. That can't be more obvious from the video.
Cruz said he didn't go down, plus you can see in the video that Cruz is still up and driving straight at 29 seconds into the video. The (alleged) contact was at 26 seconds. Also, at 30 seconds into the video I see nobody down. These can be observe if you go through the video frame-by-frame.
The downed-rider lie was promoted by supporters of the injured rider. They claimed that he was helping the downed rider. Now they've changed their story and claim that the injured rider was there to protect the SUV from the hostile mob.
The motorcycle riders all were taking revenge on the SUV for not tolerating their blockade. The smashed rider was part of the prison blockade and deserved what he got.
Witnesses protected the wife from the violent mob, as they were also targeting her.
The following photos show all four tires on the SUV. It appears that the gang slashed three of them. I think the right rear is flat. I suppose two were slashed on the final stop. This gives credence to the claim that they slashed a tire before the chase, rather than the tire getting punctured on the motorcycle.
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1476606.1380917023!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/bikers5n-8-web.jpg
http://assets.nydailynews.com/polopoly_fs/1.1476608.1380917026!/img/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_635/bikers5n-7-web.jpg
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)If they were, they would have disintegrated just like the right front. Rims cut through flat tires in motion.
I'll accept that those tires were flattened by the bikers at some point (probably when the windows were broken), but that doesn't show they were flattened before he ran the guy over. (Left rear was holding air when Mr. Lien was on the ground, getting stomped on)
I don't disagree with the first half of what you said. The bikers had no right to impede his freedom of movement. I agree with you. But does it rise to justifiable use of that vehicle against a human?
Let's say Mr. Lien had a gun instead. Would he have been justified in shooting the man that was run over? Would he have been justified in shooting ANY of the bikers?
Remember, in his decision to flee, this becomes a question of justifiable use of deadly force. A 5300lb vehicle against people, is either justifiable, or assault with a deadly weapon.
cpwm17
(3,829 posts)Last edited Mon Oct 7, 2013, 05:36 PM - Edit history (1)
by a hostile mob. Absolutely that is justification to flee through the hostile mob with his family. That is false imprisonment. He was under no obligation to stick around to find out what they had in store for him.
No charges will ever be filed and no jury would ever convict the victim of the mob.
Bonx
(2,051 posts)The rest of what you wrote is more of the same nonsense.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)(And multiple photos show those tires holding air even after the windows are broken.)
If you get to assume the front right could not have been punctured by the bike, then I get to assume (based on the evidence of the tires appearance during the chase, and their non-disintegration) the tires were flattened after he initially ran some one over.