Report: Swiss scientists find at least 18 times normal levels of Polonium in Arafat's Bones
Source: Al Jazeera
@BreakingNews: Report: Swiss scientists find at least 18 times normal levels of Polonium in Yasser Arafat's remains - @ajam http://t.co/H6dG3nE483
Exclusive: Swiss study says Polonium found in Arafat's bones
November 6, 2013 9:46AM ET
By David Poort and Ken Silverstein
PARIS Swiss scientists who conducted tests on samples taken from Yasser Arafats body have found at least 18 times the normal levels of radioactive polonium in his remains. The scientists said that they were confident up to an 83 percent level that the late Palestinian leader was poisoned with it, which they said moderately supports polonium as the cause of his death.
A 108-page report by the University Centre of Legal Medicine in Lausanne, which was obtained exclusively by Al Jazeera, found unnaturally high levels of polonium in Arafats ribs and pelvis, and in soil stained with his decaying organs.
The Swiss scientists, along with French and Russian teams, obtained the samples last November after his body was exhumed from a mausoleum in Ramallah in the occupied West Bank.
Dave Barclay, a renowned U.K. forensic scientist and retired detective, told Al Jazeera that with these results he was wholly convinced that Arafat was murdered.
Yasser Arafat died of polonium poisoning, he said. We found the smoking gun that caused his death. What we dont know is whos holding the gun at the time.
Read more: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2013/11/6/swiss-study-poloniumfoundinarafatasbones.html
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)I wonder, what method they use. Mass-spectrometry or spectroscopy of the gamma-radiation?
AngryAmish
(25,704 posts)Gamma radiation has been found to increase the incidence of Hulk-ism.
But don't tell them that. It might make them angry. And you would not like them when they are angry.
DetlefK
(16,423 posts)Each radioactive element has a distinct chain of decay-products. Many of those emit gamma-radiation, the frequency depending on the radioactive nucleus. By measuring the gamma-radiation of the samples, they could deduce which radio-active elements are abundant in the sample. If they are members of the decay-chain of polonium, then there was polonium in the samples.
But I don't know haw fast or reliable that method is.
Secondary Ion-Mass Spectroscopy (SIMS) is pretty fast:
Prepare sample: 1 day.
Transfer into vacuum-chamber: A few hours.
Start digging (with a focused ion-beam) and measure what comes out: A few hours.
Preliminary, crappy results after two days. Better results if you prepare the sample more carefully and measure longer (for better statistics).
VanillaRhapsody
(21,115 posts)to silence critics...
hlthe2b
(102,119 posts)Scairp
(2,749 posts)Remember the poor guy in England, Ukrainian I think, who actually DID get poisoned with polonium? I remember the photo of him in the hospital and he had NO HAIR. Did Arafat lose all of his hair before his death? And why in the world would anyone bother to poison him with something so James Bond-like after he was so old and not really in control of anything anymore? I don't pretend to understand what these levels of polonium mean but I really am not believing that this is what killed Arafat.
AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)Either this is a serious frame-up, or Russia had no incentive to say 'yup it was polonium'.
I'm actually surprised by this result. I thought he just died of old age/hard life. He was 75 after all.
christx30
(6,241 posts)President Lincoln is John Wilkes Booth. Mr. Booth, what can you tell us about the cause of death?"
"Stroke.. Yes. That's it. The President had a violent stroke in the middle of the play. That's it. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it."
"There you have it, ladies and gentlemen. Case is closed."
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)was they didn't find what they knew was there.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)and the French refused to release their results.
NickB79
(19,224 posts)To run the ballistics on a gun used in a suspected hit?
Scootaloo
(25,699 posts)I've been of the opinion that the poisoning story was just bullshit. Sounds as though I'll have to change my mind.
PatrynXX
(5,668 posts)I was more or less concerned he might have been assassinated . now I'm worried...
Ava Gadro
(36 posts)AtheistCrusader
(33,982 posts)mpcamb
(2,868 posts)Who would benefit by removing a Palestinian leader with strong popular backing?
MADem
(135,425 posts)Archae
(46,301 posts)Polonium decays rather quickly, there would be none left in Arafat's bones, unless it had been planted there.
And who would have a motive for murdering Arafat?
Not Israel.
Israel wanted Arafat alive so they could point out how corrupt and brutal Palestinians can be.
(Arafat, his family and cronies stole billions of $$$ in Palestinian aid, and any dissenters were labeled "collaborators," imprisoned, tortured and murdered.)
Hamas wanted him dead. The were open about it.
Russia wanted him dead, they couldn't trust him any longer.
Other Arab countries like Saudi Arabia and Syria wanted him dead, they no longer could trust him either.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Creating two governments means that neither would ever be legitimate. It's a brilliant strategy.
How Israel Helped to Spawn Hamas
Surveying the wreckage of a neighbor's bungalow hit by a Palestinian rocket, retired Israeli official Avner Cohen traces the missile's trajectory back to an "enormous, stupid mistake" made 30 years ago.
"Hamas, to my great regret, is Israel's creation," says Mr. Cohen, a Tunisian-born Jew who worked in Gaza for more than two decades. Responsible for religious affairs in the region until 1994, Mr. Cohen watched the Islamist movement take shape, muscle aside secular Palestinian rivals and then morph into what is today Hamas, a militant group that is sworn to Israel's destruction.
Instead of trying to curb Gaza's Islamists from the outset, says Mr. Cohen, Israel for years tolerated and, in some cases, encouraged them as a counterweight to the secular nationalists of the Palestine Liberation Organization and its dominant faction, Yasser Arafat's Fatah. Israel cooperated with a crippled, half-blind cleric named Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, even as he was laying the foundations for what would become Hamas. Sheikh Yassin continues to inspire militants today; during the recent war in Gaza, Hamas fighters confronted Israeli troops with "Yassins," primitive rocket-propelled grenades named in honor of the cleric.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB123275572295011847'
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)I assume you could access the link.
Peace
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)As long as Israel is fighting recognition of an independent Palestinian state, the partnership between Hamas and Fatah serves Israel's agenda. It can wave on the international scene the Hamas threat to torpedo a Palestinian state, and it can rely on Hamas to provide Israel with pretexts for blocking the diplomatic process. Because, without the Gaza Strip there is no Palestinian state and without Hamas there is no Gaza.
Thus, Israel and Hamas have succeeded in transforming Hamas into one of the core issues to be resolved ahead of an agreement. As far as Israel is concerned, this is a safe "core issue," because it carries no international pressure to recognize Hamas. Hamas is the best guarantee Israel has at this time for preserving the status quo vis a vis the Palestinians. The result is that anyone who talks about destroying Hamas undermines the strategic interest of Benjamin Netanyahu. Without Hamas there is no excuse for delaying a Palestinian state.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/opinion/it-s-a-good-thing-for-israel-that-hamas-exists-1.380352
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)do you have anything factual?
LiberalLovinLug
(14,164 posts)believe that the Dictionary has made a mistake. And that there is no such thing as a "conspiracy".
And so to theorize about a conspiracy is the same thing as contemplating fairies.
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)the one that there was no moon landing
LiberalLovinLug
(14,164 posts)You pack all "conspiracy theories" into the same boat. Some fantastical boat from Never never land. Digging yourself in further.
Must be nice though to live in a world where it is ridiculous to even consider that powerful wealthy men collude behind closed doors to plan criminal actions to give them some political advantage or $.
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)They all are just that.........theories until or unless they have something to prove them and so far yours have as much validation as the moon landing conspiracy ones.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)If you've no theory, you've nothing to hypothesise about, no way to design and conduct experiments; nothing to test.
Pîssing in the wind, if you'll excuse me.
P.S. Well and succinctly argued, LiberalLovinLug
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Well, gosh, you know, you can go back, really 60 or 70 years. The Hamas organization is an outgrowth, really a formal outgrowth, of the Muslim Brotherhood, which was a transnational organization founded in Egypt, which established branches in the 30s and 40s in Jordan and Palestine and Syria and elsewhere. And the Palestinian branch of the Muslim Brotherhood was founded by a man named Said Ramadan, actually the father of Tariq Ramadan, who you mentioned earlier. Said Ramadan was one of the founders of the Brotherhood, who was the son-in-law of its originator, Hassan al-Banna, and he established the Muslim Brotherhood in Jordan and in Jerusalem in 1945. And it grew rapidly during the 40s and was, not surprisingly, a very conservative political Islamic Movement that had a lot of support from the Hashemite royal family of Jordan and from the king of Egypt.
This movement, as it began in the 40s and 50s, ran up against the emerging tide of Arab nationalism, and really the story of Hamas and the story of the Muslim Brotherhood is a continual battle for the last 50 years between Arab nationalists and the Arab left on one hand, and what I would call the Islamic right on the other hand. So the Hamas movement, as it grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, found itself in the 1960s fighting Arab nationalism in all of these countries, including Egypt.
When Fatah was founded in late 1950s and began taking action against Israel in guerilla warfare in the mid-60s, Hamas was or the Muslim Brotherhood was strongly opposed to Fatah. They grew out of the same movement. The Palestinian Fatah organization was founded really out of the League of Palestinian Students, that was a Muslim Brotherhood organization. But the nationalists broke away, and people like Khalil al-Wazir, and Salah Khalaf, and Yasser Arafat and the Hassan brothers, who founded Fatah, broke away from the Muslim Brotherhood in the late 1950s.
And by 1965, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt launched its second attempt to kill Nasser at precisely the same time that Nasser was supporting the Palestinian national movement and Fatah against Israel in the areas surrounding the Israeli borders on the Egyptian front. So the Egyptian authorities arrested a man and put him in jail in 1965, named Ahmed Yassin. Ahmed Yassin, of course, is the founder of Hamas. He was, in turn well get to the end of the story was killed by Israel a couple of years ago. But in 1965, he was put in jail by the Egyptian authorities. And then, two years later, of course, when Israel occupied Gaza and the West Bank and, of course, the Sinai peninsula after the 1967 War, the Israelis released Ahmed Yassin and a number of other Muslim Brotherhood leaders.
And starting in 1967, the Israelis began to encourage or allow the Islamists in the Gaza and West Bank areas, among the Palestinian exiled population, to flourish. The statistics are really quite staggering. In Gaza, for instance, between 1967 and 1987, when Hamas was founded, the number of mosques tripled in Gaza from 200 to 600. And a lot of that came with money flowing from outside Gaza, from wealthy conservative Islamists in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. But, of course, none of this could have happened without the Israelis casting an approving eye upon it.
And during these years, during that 20-year span, the Hamas organization was a bitter opponent of Palestinian nationalism, clashed repeatedly with the P.L.O. and with Fatah, of course, refused to participate in the P.L.O. umbrella. And just as during the '50s and 60s, the Muslim Brotherhood fought against the Nasserists, the Baath Party, the communists and the rest of the Arab left, in the 1970s and 80s, the Muslim Brotherhood fought against the Palestinian national movement. Now that's not even a surprise, you know. In 1970, when the king of Jordan launched his massive counter-offensive against the Palestinians there in that event called Black September, the Muslim Brotherhood was a strong supporter of the king and actually backed his effort, which resulted in thousands of Palestinians killed in a virtual civil war in Jordan.
So theres plenty of evidence that the Israeli intelligence services, especially Shin Bet and the military occupation authorities, encouraged the growth of the Muslim Brotherhood and the founding of Hamas. There are many examples and incidents of that. But there were armed clashes, of course, on Palestinian university campuses in the 70s and 80s, where Hamas would attack P.L.O., PFLP, PDFLP and other groups, with clubs and chains. This was before guns became prominent in the Occupied Territories.
Even that, however theres a very interesting and unexplained incident. Yassin was arrested in 1983 by the Israelis. On search of his home, they found a large cache of weapons. This would have been a fairly explosive event, but for unexplained reasons, a year later Yassin was quietly released from prison. He said at the time that the guns were being stockpiled not to fight the Israeli occupation authorities, but to fight other Palestinian factions.
That and other incidents gave rise to a number of diplomats and intelligence people who I interviewed, saying that there was plenty of reason to think that the Israelis were fostering the growth of Hamas. And, of course, Yasser Arafat himself, in a famous quote to a newspaper reporter a number of years ago, explicitly described Hamas as, quote, "a creature of Israel." And he said that he discussed this with Yitzhak Rabin during their Oslo process. And Rabin told Arafat that it was "a fatal error" for the Israelis to have encouraged the growth of Hamas. The theory of it, of course, was that Hamas would be a force against Palestinian nationalism. And I think its clear that it ended up, to a shocking degree, backfiring against overall Israeli policy.
Democracy Now - How Israel and the United States Helped to Bolster Hamas
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/1/26/how_israel_and_the_united_states
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)but making a long winded post trying to defend a conspiracy theory (which your post is) doesnt provide it a solid foundation it merely highlights the weakness which is that you lack anything firmer to support it.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)MADem
(135,425 posts)They didn't ascribe blame, but one has to ask the cui bono question.
Unless one is completely uncurious.
bitchkitty
(7,349 posts)Are you TRYING to appear unbelievably obtuse?
You're way outmatched here. If I were you, I'd pack it in. Go find one of Zorro's Maduro threads. That'll keep you busy.
cstanleytech
(26,224 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)the theory was not disproven. If one were doing physics, it would be called something like weak confirmation of the theory, or results were consistent with the theory. So further investigation seems warranted, and I expect it will be forthcoming.
What is obtuse is dismissing confirmatory evidence.
MADem
(135,425 posts)weak confirmation, though not quite firm-to-solid. They played it as though it was entirely possible that there was some "there" there.
I've said for a long time I found something fishy in Arafat's rapid decline. Hey, I realize people can get sick in a hurry and die, and I know he had other chronic issues, but I kept an eye on that guy over the years, and he went downhill freakishly fast.
Or so I thought, anyway!
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Assuming the Swiss were careful, it's pretty likely a murder/assassination. Not alot of Polonium laying around, and it doesn't lay around long, anyhow.
Whom the perp might be needs further investigation. There should be a fairly limited list of suspects.
I was also watching closely. And I consulted quite a lot of Spanish popular opinion, from top to bottom... Fishy, we all mostly thought... "Downhill freakishly fast," and in those circumstances...
However, nobody wants to make even more trouble around that region of the world, right?
HereSince1628
(36,063 posts)MicaelS
(8,747 posts)Fingers will be pointing and blame, rhetoric and propaganda will be flying in all directions.
Would you prefer a deafening silence on what is now self-evidently a political assassination? People are going to speculate about suspects and who might have thought they would benefit from Arafat's death. Maybe it will lead to the actual perpetrators.
Orrex
(63,172 posts)Dreamer Tatum
(10,926 posts)I'm pretty sure he was high in that as well.
nashville_brook
(20,958 posts)ChairmanAgnostic
(28,017 posts)Canada? Great Britain? France? the former USSR?
No, wait, I got it! India killed him! Or at least a country that starts with I.
hack89
(39,171 posts)http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Factsheets/English/polonium210.html
lunasun
(21,646 posts)1000words
(7,051 posts)BlueStreak
(8,377 posts)And their answer to their own ignorance is always "conspiracy theory".
hack89
(39,171 posts)http://www.curml.ch/en/
And from the actual report:
Not much of a smoking gun. A suggestion of wrong doing perhaps but not conclusive proof.
2naSalit
(86,323 posts)there has been pressure from unnamed entities to tone it down? Pointing definitive fingers seems to be a hard move to make these days... just sayin'.
I'm surprized that there was any mention in affirmative tones in the report. I have suspected that he was poisoned with polonium as soon as I heard he had fallen ill given his symptoms at the time and the political environment of the time. I may have been correct it seems. Not that anyone cares about what I think.
Edited to add: I heard about it this morning on BBC.
Jack Rabbit
(45,984 posts)To paraphrase a line from Citizen Kane, "Find anybody who ever hated him -- I don't mean you have to go through the city directory."
lostincalifornia
(3,639 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)A Swiss medical report into Palestinian leader Yasser Arafats death that may support a poisoning theory is more soap opera than science, an Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman said today.
As an observer from the side, I can note that the poisoning theory has huge holes in it, spokesman Yigal Palmor said by phone. The mere levels of polonium that have allegedly been found in themselves mean nothing at all.
Arafat died on Nov. 11, 2004, and his remains were exhumed at the end of 2012 after his wife Suha requested an autopsy to search for traces of a poisonous substance. Palestinians have accused Israel of causing Arafats death, though no conclusive evidence has been presented. Israel denies killing him.
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-11-07/report-on-arafat-more-soap-opera-than-science-palmor-says
elleng
(130,726 posts)Don't confuse me with facts.
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)Saludos de California...
Ghost Dog
(16,881 posts)Aqui yo en el Norte de Fuerteventura. Desde hace 25 años. (Barcelona también).
Anda. Tienes razón: Hay que depurar a Méjico. Y a EE.UU también.
Tranquis todxs... Tiempo al tiempo. (Give it time).
Behind the Aegis
(53,919 posts)Four investigations, hundreds of testimonies and stacks of medical reports on Yasser Arafat's unexplained death in 2004 have failed to produce hard evidence of what killed him -- and findings presented Friday only created more confusion.
Palestinian officials said a report they received from Russia on the role of radioactive polonium in Arafat's death was inconclusive. They spoke just a day after Swiss scientists said the Palestinian leader was probably poisoned by the rare and extremely lethal substance.
Despite those discrepancies, the Swiss and Russian reports agreed that Arafat's death "was not caused by old age or disease, but as a result of a toxic substance," said Dr. Abdullah Bashir, a medical expert in the three-member Palestinian team that has been investigating Arafat's death. This, he told a news conference, is in line with the long-standing Palestinian contention that Arafat was poisoned.
more: http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2022215676_apxarafatsdeath.html
Ruh-roh!
quadrature
(2,049 posts)please be as specific as you can be
MADem
(135,425 posts)Sometimes, what might seem to be the most obvious culprit isn't.
Who benefitted from the man's death? Who could get close enough to do this deed?
These are questions that need answers.
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Seems senseless.
sir pball
(4,737 posts)Give or take, I'm rounding down one because the analysis probably wasn't done on the 5th. At any rate, 23 half lives will reduce the amount of Po-210 by a factor of...8388608. Which means if the level is still 18 times higher than normal, at the time of his death it would have been 150,994,944 times normal. 100x the dose that killed Litvinenko. Now, I'm not saying any of that is impossible by any means, but that massive a dose is entirely inconsistent with his symptoms. He'd have gone from healthy to dead in hours at best, not lingered on for weeks.
(Yes, they could be measuring Pb-206 levels, but I didn't see that in any articles.)
Ash_F
(5,861 posts)Which only decays after they die? That's what I got from your post but I am not quite sure what you are saying.
sir pball
(4,737 posts)That isn't what I'm saying - I'm saying given the decay rate of polonium, for his remains to have 18 times the normal amount nine years after his death would make the amount in his system at the time he died absolutely stratospheric, far beyond any other known cases. Would have killed him immediately, not a slow lingering death like he (and Litvinenko) suffered.
They could be measuring the decay products and extrapolating from there, but I see no indication of that.