Most of NSA’s data collection authorized by order Ronald Reagan issued

[bemildred]

Source: McClatchy

WASHINGTON — The National Security Agency’s collection of information on Americans’ cellphone and Internet usage reaches far beyond the two programs that have received public attention in recent months, to a presidential order that is older than the Internet itself.

Approved by President Ronald Reagan in 1981, Executive Order 12333 (referred to as “twelve-triple-three”) still governs most of what the NSA does. It is a sweeping mandate that outlines the duties and foreign intelligence collection for the nation’s 17 intelligence agencies. It is not governed by Congress, and critics say it has little privacy protection and many loopholes. What changes have been made to it have come through guidelines set by the attorney general or other documents.

The result is a web of intelligence law so complicated that it stymies even those tasked with interpreting it. As one former executive official said, “It’s complicated stuff.”

Confusing though it may be, the order remains the primary authority under which the country’s intelligence agencies conduct the majority of their operations.

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2013/11/21/209167/most-of-nsas-data-collection-authorized.html

[baldguy]

1. But Ed Snowden says it's all Obama's fault!

Glen Greenwald told me so!

[TBF]

5. Read his entire message

so you can see the sarcasm tag.

[bemildred]

13. It's a classic straw man, but not at all well done, a good straw man appears to make sense.

It sounds like projection to me, I doubt Snowden cares a fig about Obama being blamed one way or another.

[TBF]

17. The tag meant that while the repugs

are blaming Obama for NSA spying it is yet another left-over from the corrupt repug administrations (and this actually went all the way back to Reagan - a surprise to many who thought it originated with 9/11 and the reactionary Patriot Act). I hope the poster will chime in if I misinterpreted, but I think that is what he/she meant.

[bemildred]

9. It seems clear that the purpose of the order was to authorize something.

The murkiness of what exactly was authorized does not change that.

[crim son]

18. From the article:

"Gen. Keith Alexander, the NSA director, has ratified that impression, saying that the majority of NSA data is collected “solely pursuant to the authorities provided by Executive Order 12333.”

[liberal N proud]

3. There is our old fucking bastard Reagan again

How many more problems we have today will be tied to Reagan.

This one surprised me a bit as I assumed most of the spying started after the power grab known as post 9/11.

[Blanks]

7. Executive orders aren't law.

It would seem to me that Reagan started us down the path, but until the USAPatriot act was signed into law the constitutional authority wasn't there.

I would think an executive order could be undone by an executive order from a later president, but a law has to be undone by the same people who passed it (both the executive and legislative branches) - unless the US Supreme Court found it unconstitutional.

So as much fun as it is to blame it on Reagan. I still believe it is the fault of the post 911 congress and Dubya.

...but I'm hardly a constitutional scholar.

[christx30]

10. And Obama could sign an

order tomorrow reversing the NSA's authority if it was something he wanted. I'm not holding my breath.

[Blanks]

15. At the risk of appearing 'pro-NSA spying on citizens'...

The president has to be careful about how much he weakens the 'secret government' without coming under attack by the MSM (a wholly owned subsidiary of the MIC) as being soft on terra.

I don't like all of this surveillance either, but what's even scarier is how many low information voters (from both parties) are swayed by the MSM.

Look at how much damage has been caused by the rocky rollout of Obamacare by the MSM. Imagine how much he'd be skewered if a terrorist attack (Fox News or 60 minutes would invent one if necessary) succeeded after he weakened the surveillance state.

It's gonna take some time to deal with this. We have to be realistic about the politics surrounding the 'soft on terra' angle. It needs to come from congress.

[JDPriestly]

22. But this proves either that a) terror has been around a very long time and/or

b) that repressive, nosy governments will find one way or another to snoop and pry and play "Now I gotcha."

There is simply no excuse for the overreaching, the excesses and the unwarranted expenditures and invasions of privacy. It is simply ridiculous.

What are they looking for?

What was Reagan looking for?

And if he was looking for terrorists and spending gazillions to snoop on us normal, law-abiding people to find them, why do we still have terrorists after all these years?

What are they really looking for?

The snooping does not seem to have stopped terrorists. So stop the snooping and find some other way to stop the terrorists, some effective way, some way that works.

[nolabels]

24. The old saying 'absolute power corrupts absolutely' applies

The rule can also be traced genetically, from the single cell protozoa

[Blanks]

25. They aren't looking for anything specific...

They are fighting to preserve their budgets by making us believe we should be terrified.

It isn't going to end until we make extensive cuts to the MIC and retrain the people who have been working in that industry.

Nobody likes change. When the wall came down in Germany and the military couldn't realistically call the USSR the threat anymore - they created this new middle eastern threat.

When we (and by we I mean the folks who are buying it) stop falling for this flag waving patriotic nonsense as a justification for stealing resources in other parts of the world - we will stop.

Until then - it's just going to continue to get worse.

[RC]

12. Even Constitutional Scholars have trouble figuring out the meaning of parts of the Constitution.

You know, like the first 10 amendments, i.e., the "Bill of Rights".

Article (I)
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Article (II)
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Article (III)
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

Article (IV)
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

Article (V)
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

Article (VI)
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.

Article (VII)
In Suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise re-examined in any Court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.

Article (VIII)
Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.

Article (IX)
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

Article [X]
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

[JDPriestly]

23. Wording lawyers try to persuade the Supreme Court to interpret to favor the cause of their clients.

The language is really pretty clear in most of the Bill of Rights, especially the Fourth and Second Amendments. Lawyers just pretend they don't understand it.

2nd: People in early America were supposed to keep arms so that they could be called to military service on very short notice.

4th: People have a right to privacy, and the government should not snoop on them.

Let history be a guide. The early Americans wanted to protect their autonomy, the sovereignty of their new country and did not want the government snooping on them. Today's Americans feel exactly the same.

[liberal N proud]

14. Its not fun to blame Reagan

it is just that most of our problems started due to Reagan policy

[Blanks]

16. Sure, started...

They've been continued because the republicans have controlled enough of the federal government to prevent reform.

Reagan was just an actor playing the part of president. It is whoever was behind him pulling the strings - that is to blame.

[TBF]

19. I dunno -

my spouse actually took a class with someone who knew Reagan well (it was a political science class at an ivy league college in the 90s) and he claimed Reagan was much smarter than folks knew. Claimed he was very intelligent and had an amazing memory. Now, at his age in the white house I don't know that this held true all the way through his 2 terms (there were accusations of senility setting in) but that is what the guy said.

Now if we were talking about George W. Bush I am totally with you about the acting thing ...

[Blanks]

21. I believe that Reagan was intelligent...

He was smart enough to play the role that whoever was paying him wanted him to play.

Just because he was intelligent doesn't mean he cared about what he was doing. I also believe he had serious Alzheimer's toward the end. That was when the puppet masters had complete control. Of course his lines where simpler - they went like this: if you are asked a question and you don't know the answer "national security" is the answer. If you've already said "national security" once. Then say "again, in the interest of national security". That was press conferences, I imagine speeches were read right off the TelePrompTer.

That's how I remember his press conferences toward the end.

Bush was a moron. I think he believed everything they told him to believe. He wasn't acting. He actually bought the whole spiel - hook, line and sinker. IMHO

[jmowreader]

26. John Hinckley changed all that

People who knew him before and after he was shot say after the assassination attempt he wasn't the same.

That he was exceptionally old - in the age of Alzheimer's onset - also has something to do with it.

Two things the Reagan-was-a-genius crowd leave out: the Reagan of Hollywood and California governorship fame was not mentally the Reagan of the White House, and Ronald Reagan was always the spawn of Satan.

[TBF]

27. Yes it's quite possible that the guy

knew him before all of that. I don't know enough about Alzheimer's - as to whether it's a gradual illness or if he could've changed pretty rapidly. What I do know is that he did a whole lot of damage to this country in 8 years.

[jmowreader]

28. He was no jewel before then

Look into Reagan's past. He was always anti-everything we stand for.

I wonder if the Reagan humpers know their saint legalized abortion in California.

[Dawson Leery]

20. +1

[TBF]

6. Reagan - it figures. nt

[westerebus]

8. Not really.

12333 was part of the counter-intel operation covering Iran Contra from being accessed by Congress. As it turned out, one lone Marine Lt. Col. ran the whole thing.