Fury in Egypt Over Harsh Sentences

[Comrade Grumpy]

Source: Al Jazeera

Clashes have erupted between Egyptian security forces and protesters who took to the streets to denounce heavy sentences handed down to a group of 21 women and girls for holding a peaceful protest earlier this month. Thursday's unrest in front of Cairo University in the capital left one person dead, medical sources said.

The convicted protesters, who are supporters of ousted president Mohamed Morsi, received 11-year prison sentences for forming a human chain and passing out flyers in the city of Alexandria. The youngest member of the group is 15-years-old.

<snip>

Human rights organisations have also heavily critcised the ruling, saying it marks a bolder resolve by the military-backed government to stifle dissent. Egypt's army-backed government passed a law earlier this week that restricts demonstrations. The new law bans public protests or political gatherings of more than ten people organised without a permit from Egyptian authorities. The government plans to impose steep fines and jail terms for violators.

“There has been an uproar and I have to say that uproar is across the board. Many Egyptians looked at these girls, all dressed in white, sitting in a criminal cage, and looking so young,” Al Jazeera’s Hoda Abdel-Hamid, reporting from Cairo, said. “They were sentenced for obstructing traffic, for possessing illegal tools that could harm other citizens, for thuggery and for other minor crimes that certainly don’t deserve such a hard sentence, and have many people here [wondering] where the country is heading and how far this will go.”

Read more: http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/11/activists-decry-harsh-sentences-egypt-2013112811319166328.html

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"Those thinking the authoritarian pharaonic style works will find it doesn't anymore. There will be a third wave of the revolution much more violent than before. We are witnessing a turning point," Laila Soueif, protester.

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And it's not just the Muslim Brotherhood and its supporters anymore. The cool kids of the secular revolutionary movements, who backed the coupsters, are now finding themselves in the military's sights.

"Egypt Issues Arrest Order for Two Activists"

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2013/11/egypt-issues-arrest-order-two-activists-201311278585123185.html

"In Egypt, University Campuses Emerge as the New Battleground"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/in-egypt-university-campuses-emerge-as-the-latest-battleground/2013/11/28/17a3033c-578d-11e3-835d-e7173847c7cc_story.html

"Crackdown in Egypt Fuels New Dissent"

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/11/27/crackdown-in-egypt-fuels-new-dissent/?_r=0

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The coup got a lot of support here because people didn't like the Muslim Brotherhood. That was short-sighted.

[LiberalLovinLug]

1. Its sad to watch what could have been

The military have overplayed their hand. I was one that was glad that the military stepped in because the Muslim Bro government was changing their constitution and laws. You could see their goal was to eventually turn Egypt into Iran. Now its turning into a Syria.

I don't know what the answer is, but Egyptians will have to figure it out for themselves. It sucked that the more liberal students and democracy advocates who started the revolution and were on the front lines ended up having to choose between a new President taken from the old regime or the MB, once it became clear that their candidate wasn't going to win. Maybe they need a new form of elections, like proportional representation where all three parties can have seats.

[Comrade Grumpy]

2. The military played the anti-Morsi people, and now the generals are back in the catbird seat.

And now the cool kids are getting their heads thumped, too. Be careful who you choose for allies.

It's not correct to say the Brotherhood's goal was to turn Egypt into Iran. In the Brotherhood's eyes, the Iranians are heretics. It would be more apt to say their goal was to turn Egypt into Turkey, where a conservative Islamist party holds power today.

And I think a lot (not all) of that talk about the Brotherhood trying to usurp power was way overdone and came courtesy of those nice folks in Mubarek's deep state. The Brotherhood moved against the judiciary for a reason: It was a bastion of the authoritarian regime determined to subvert the revolution. And now one of those Mubarek crony judges is president. Funny how that works.

[LiberalLovinLug]

4. I'd still say their goal was more like Iran

They wanted to implement Sharia Law in their new constitution and proclaimed numerous fatwas during their year in office, especially towards women:

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/4069/egypt-salafi-fatwas

The Egyptian newspaper Al Masry Al Youm summarized some of the Al Azhar study's main findings and assertions on November 15 in a article entitled (in translation), "Muslim Brotherhood fatwas: A woman swimming is an 'adulteress' and touching bananas is 'forbidden.'"

According to the report, "fatwas issued by both groups [Brotherhood and Salafis] regard women as strange creatures created solely for sex. They considered the voices of women, their looks and presence outside the walls of their homes an 'offence.' Some went as far as to consider women as a whole 'offensive.'"

......

The study similarly revealed that some of these fatwas decreed that women who swim in the sea are committing "adultery" -- even if they wear a hijab: "The reason behind this particular fatwa, from their point of view, is that the sea is masculine [as with many other languages, Arabic nouns are gender specific, and "sea" is masculine], and when the water touches the woman's private parts she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished."

Moreover, "Some of these fatwas also forbade women from eating certain vegetables or even touching cucumbers or bananas," due to their phallic imagery, which may tempt women to deviate.

Other fatwas decreed that "it is unacceptable for women to turn the air conditioning on at home during the absence of their husbands as this could be used as a sign to indicate to neighbors that the woman is at home alone and any of them could commit adultery with her."

One fatwa suggested that marriage to ten-year-old girls should be allowed to prevent girls "from deviating from the right path," while another prohibited girls from going to schools located 25 kilometers away from their homes.

[Scootaloo]

6. I hate to swat at you more, but...

1) Gatestone Institute is a neoconservative shithole. John Bolton is the chairman, Nina Rosenwald is the institute's president, we're not exactly talking about a thoughtful source of analysis here.

2) al-Azhar university might be a prestigious school, but its current head, Ahmed el-Tayeb was appointed by Mubarak, is a ranking member of the national democratic party (Mubarak's party) opposed the deposing of Mubarak, and was an outspoken supporter of the military and the coup, brutality and repression and all. He's the guy behind this study.

Believe that the Brotherhood issued "secret fatwas" about cucumbers if you like, I suppose. Just know that you're citing an islamophobic right-wing "think tank" that is in turn citing a ranking member of the opposition party as a source for that.

[Scootaloo]

5. Really? This is how your head works?

You were glad that the Egyptian military "stepped in"? Are you fucking kidding me? Now, I get you don't like the direction the ruling party was going with things, and in principle I agree there.

But then I feel the same about Republicans, and if fifteen hundred tea partiers were gunned down at the mall in DC, and all the Republicans in office arrested and charged with treason - an executable offense - while the military installed itself as the new government, would I be glad for it? Would YOU? I have to assume you would be happy to see such a massacre, to live under such a coup, right? If it's good for the Egyptians, then it's good for you.

And now you think you can wash your hands of support for that. Really? No, you don't get to. You were rooting for the military then, you're stuck rooting for them now. It wasn't secret what the results were going to be. Nobody is surprised here. This is how military coups run - and in fact this is how they've run in Egypt's past. What, did you think this would be a kinder, gentler violent seizure of power? A more democratic suspension of democracy? If that's what you thought, then you can't be very bright. Especially since you didn't even have to figure it out yourself, there were plenty of people explaining all this to you. You opted for supporting this shit anyway.

So. You ordered it, you bought it, now you own it. You can't just suddenly notice it's unpopular, and drop it. People are dead, a democracy destroyed, a population under repression, and yes. YOU ARE TO BLAME, at least in part. It was supporters like you who helped the US maintain its silence on the matter - which the military took as implicit support for what they were doing (because it is.) it was supporters like you who allowed the media to mutate the story. It was supporters like you who even now still insist that butchering people is a good way to get a political result that YOU find desirable.

You sound no different from any of the assholes who were cheering for the Iraq war right up until it stopped being popular.

[DeSwiss]

10. ''What, did you think this would be a kinder, gentler violent seizure of power?''

- You are so bad. I just love it when the prose zings!

[LiberalLovinLug]

24. Your analogy is flawed

More like George (a dictatorship would be a lot easier) Bush and a majority of Repubs in both houses and a stacked Supreme Court change it so that he can rule indefinately and with dictator like powers. And so the Republicans start making major changes where there is no minimum wage, no financial regulations, no welfare, Social Security, or food stamps as well as anything else they can think of to make them and their pals even more wealthy at the expense of the environment and middle class and below.

After a while the fundies break away because they don't like that the government isn't pushing abortion banning and traditional marriage ammendments and forced school prayers etc, and so they form their own party. Then pressure mounts to end the dictorship and hold elections. And during the elections it becomes clear that one of these two parties is going to win, that more liberal social concience people and their quickly formed party don't stand a chance. So the majority of those vote for anyone-but-Bush resulting in a fundie win who have promised NOT to discriminate etc..

But upon winning, the fundie party immediately begin to make plans to rewrite the Constitution in order to create a theocracy where women are subjegated, abortions are banned,....basically Sharia law 'merican style. A Handsmaid Tale. So after a few months the American public finally can't take it anymore and takes to the streets by the millions to protest. Finally the military, being commited to the original Constitution, rises up and arrests the fundie leader in the name of the people and the Constitution with the stated plan of returnign to democratic rule once again soon.

At that point would I support that move?......yes!

But I could also change my mind or be critical of that military coup if the leaders, started getting heavy handed and "fifteen hundred tea partiers were gunned down at the mall in DC"

But at that point, like in Egypt, there is no easy solution. Its not the best of TWO evils, its the best of THREE evils. (And one fledgling democracy movement from a voiceless left) Like i said, they will have to figure it out for themselves eventually. But it is a fledgling democracy and it can get messy. I am hoping that those more liberal or at least moderate activists will use this time to garner support in order to win a coming election. And I am hoping that the military will voluntarily allow it to happen. What more can one have than hope? I'm not an Egyptian and I don't walk like one.

[Ash_F]

14. The military overturned a democratic election with the threat of violence.

You thought they would lead some kind of benevolent new government?

[Burf-_-]

3. the irony ...it burns

"Those thinking the authoritarian pharaonic style works will find it doesn't anymore. There will be a third wave of the revolution much more violent than before. We are witnessing a turning point," Laila Soueif, protester.

Why she actually thinks it would be any better for her under "islamist style rule" is just, flabbergasting.

[Comrade Grumpy]

8. It's not at all clear that Laila Soueif seeks an "islamist style rule."

The article says:

"But hundreds of protesters opposed to both Morsi and the government gathered Cairo for a rally against the law," and then quotes her.

I recommend topical ointment.

[Scootaloo]

13. Well, for one, Morsi didn't kill over a thousand people

For another, he didn't round up protestors like al-Sisi is doing.
For a third, the people of Egypt actually elected the guy.
Fourth, different parties worked in the government prior to the coup.
Fifth, spurious charges of "treason" and "disrupting the security of Egypt" were not de rigueur under Morsi's administration
Sixth, the elected government of Egypt did not censor the press.
Seventh, "legal protest" under the Morsi government was not restricted to fenced-in enclosures guarded by soldiers.

She probably thinks it would be better, because it was better. And I'm sure she has a longer list of examples than I pulled off the top of my head, since she happens to live there, and I just pay attention to the news.

I find it simply fascinating that so many "progressives" prefer a bloody-handed military regime that illegally seized power and now spends its time arresting and "vanishing" protestors and journalists, to a democratically-elected government that featured a party that called itself Islamic.

But then after having seen DU'ers vocalize support for Indonesia's Suharto regime, and its million-some people killed, because the current government is considering barring the sale of beer on Bali, I guess I shouldn't be surprised...

[Burf-_-]

16. cool your jets

I don't support iron handed dictators any more than you do. But i do take an absolute stand against the Muslim Brotherhood, despite all the examples you have given, they are NOT AT ALL what Egypt needs. They are a group of radical Islamist fascists and would only impose their despicable treatment of women on her. She is only a child and has had her mind made up for most likely by her father, which given no real alternative to speak her own mind, will continue her whole life. There is no equality for women in Islam, just like there is no equality for christian women. Misogyny is rampant in the quaran and the bible. Keep in mind that these religions are both patriarchal and take no shame in putting a female in her place. This is not what any modern or evolved society needs. I'm sure you know that.

I find it equally as disparaging that so many on DU react to any comment about extremist Islamism that doesn't immediately excuse it's obvious bad behavior, and equally tyrannous dogma, as an attack on the entire culture of those avowed to Islam. Let me be the first to tell you I don't like religion, nor do i like fascists, but i especailly don't like it when someone takes my comments entirely out of context, and then tries to mischaracterize what i posted as if I were like some of the brainless right-wing trolls we all strive not to be like. I couldn't be more of a blue-dog liberal but that doesn't mean I won't speak outside the box when all the definitions don't immediately fall inside my primary political outlook. I wish more people understood this, and weren't so grossly reactionable. I guess I shouldn't be surprised.... ... . . ?

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. Do you know Laila Souief? If not, maybe you shouldn't be invalidating her voice.

This is twice now you've tried to do that.

She may disagree that you know better what she needs and wants than she does.

Kinda funny for someone railing against patriarchy and all that. I guess you put that female in her place.

[Burf-_-]

19. Tried to do what grumpy ? Express that im concerend she's being manipulated ?

No i don't know her personally, do you ? So then, how can you sit there and pretend like you know better whats she's been through. Oh that's right .... you can't. I wish could meet her, I think she is a brave little soul for speaking out at all. But AGAIN, she is a child, who is most likely being controlled by the Ideology of her parents who likely support the brotherhood. She has clearly never been able to make up her own mind. Do you not think that is sad ? If it were up to me she would have a real opportunity to validate herself without any duress, or coercion. I won't sit here and let you make it look as though I'm against her in any way, so you might as well can it now before you embarrass yourself further.

[Scootaloo]

18. Oh come off it

Here's some examples.

I don't support iron handed dictators any more than you do. But i do take an absolute stand against the Muslim Brotherhood,

Well, in this scenario it's actually one or the other, and you've chosen the bloody military dictatorship. Welcome to the real world, friend.

despite all the examples you have given, they are NOT AT ALL what Egypt needs.

This is for you to determine? Are you an Egyptian? Because the Egyptians themselves made a different decision, and seem rather unhappy with the coup.

They are a group of radical Islamist fascists and would only impose their despicable treatment of women on her.

Well they're not, and they didn't. Your argument is hinging on "Islam = EVIL!" here. Also let's keep your supposed concern for women in mind, it'll come up later.

She is only a child and has had her mind made up for most likely by her father, which given no real alternative to speak her own mind, will continue her whole life.

...Or sooner. I find it amazing that you, with the same breath thump your chest about women's freedom, dismiss a woman's thoughts and opinions as irrelevant for two idiotic reasons. "She's a child" - No, she's not, she's a woman. Even if she were a child, children are capable of thought. "Her mind was made up by her father" - another amazing assumption by you that has no basis except again, your premise that "ISLAM = BAD!" So while pretending you give a shit about women's rights, you completely dismiss the opinions and desires of a woman who, I assure you, knows more about this than you do, because she doesn't support hte outcome YOU prefer. And you have the balls to gripe about patriarchy!

Misogyny is rampant in the quaran and the bible. Keep in mind that these religions are both patriarchal and take no shame in putting a female in her place. This is not what any modern or evolved society needs. I'm sure you know that.

Misogyny is also rampant in your post, can I assume that you need to be shot in the face by a soldier? AsI brought up downthread, should we cheer if the US military were to overthrow the US government while Republicans are in power for thesame reasons? I really doubt you feel so, so again, you're making those special exceptions on the notion that "MUSLIMS= EVIL!"

I find it equally as disparaging that so many on DU react to any comment about extremist Islamism that doesn't immediately excuse it's obvious bad behavior, and equally tyrannous dogma, as an attack on the entire culture of those avowed to Islam.

Well, when your main argument is to dismiss the thoughts of an adult woman and demote her to child just becuase she is (presumably) a Muslim, while arguing against a situation that never actually existed, on the assumption that "since it's Islam it must be like this!" it really makes it clear that you are, in fact, an Islamophobic bigot who's simply exploiting some other group - in your case women - to justify that ignorance and hatred.

Let me be the first to tell you I don't like religion, nor do i like fascists,

Well, here you are cheering for fascists over religion, to the point of basically dehumanizing a woman because of what you assume her faith to be, mocking her for not supporting the fascist dictatorship over the democratically-elected government they overthrew.

but i especailly don't like it when someone takes my comments entirely out of context, and then tries to mischaracterize what i posted as if I were like some of the brainless right-wing trolls we all strive not to be like.

No need to mischaracterize - your post really makes you sound exactly like hte same brainless right-wing trolls I've beendealing with for years. This ain't my first rodeo, son.

I couldn't be more of a blue-dog liberal

Oh lord.

[Burf-_-]

20. You don't know a thing about me, but you just taught me a lot about yourself.

Well, in this scenario it's actually one or the other, and you've chosen the bloody military dictatorship. Welcome to the real world, friend.

This is a false dichotomy. I never chose one over the other, so you don't get to chose for me.

Well, here you are cheering for fascists over religion, to the point of basically dehumanizing a woman because of what you assume her faith to be, mocking her for not supporting the fascist dictatorship over the democratically-elected government they overthrew.

When did i cheer for the Dictators ? When did i Mock her ? I simply implied it was Ironic to chose one over the other, but I doubt choice was involved for her.

Well they're not, and they didn't. Your argument is hinging on "Islam = EVIL!" here. Also let's keep your supposed concern for women in mind, it'll come up later.

You must be foaming at the mouth mad to not see the all the real world examples of how EXTREMISTS in the name of ANY religion (I don't give dmn which one it is) ARE EVIL !!! did you forget Malala in Pakistan they shot her and left her for dead, the acid attacks that disfigure people for life, The honor killings for the crime of not being a virgin or being exactly what the father or husband think they ought to be, The sex slave trade going unchecked in Qatar and Bahrain, the murder of people who draw the prophet, Women who are forced to wear burqa's in Afghanistan in 100 weather and are beaten by the morality police if a hand slips out of it.

Switching gears, you don't seem to be offended by anything here but where it might concern islam, so lets talk about Mormons, and their 15 wives, and the extreme to which they interpret the bible, and books of mormon. My best friend growing up had a fundie Mormon father who yelled and hit on his wife and son like dogs, if they missed a day of fasting, or they didn't do their daily reading, or just about anything he demanded of them, I turned him into the police, how i hated that man! Abuse rampant in the Presbyterian circle too. The list go's on ad nuaseum really.

You picked the wrong guy if you think I'll let you misrepresent me here!

And why can you not separate in your mind that there are extremists in every religion, and i don't approve of any of them ? You keep up with the news right ? I doubt it, all you want to do so far is argue, and judge people. Here's some news links for ya this all happens because of RELIGION:
Malala
Mormon Warren Jeffs
Acid attacks
Sex Slaves Trade in Bahrain

[Scootaloo]

21. We're talking about Egypt

But nice gish gallop you've got there.

Give Geert my regards

[Burf-_-]

22. I Prefer Christopher Hitchens

....but Geert Wilders was another man hated because he told the truth. That's fine by me.

Geert Wilders

Also: HITCHSLAP

[tblue]

7. Somehow we have to show

we have their back. That's the very least we can do. They did what we all should be doing. Civil protests can only succeed when there is a broad support network. If you have ideas, please share!

[DeSwiss]

11. You can't fix a car while you're driving it at the same time.

You have to make it stop first. Completely. Turn it ALL off. Everything but life essentials and nothing for profit. Then we'll have the keys. We can start making the needed changes then.

- And only then.....

[Comrade Grumpy]

9. "Egyptian Police Arrest Leading Activist Alaa Abdel-Fatah"

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/1/64/87786/Egypt/Politics-/Egyptian-police-arrest-leading-activist-Alaa-Abdel.aspx

Egyptian police arrest leading activist Alaa Abdel-Fattah
Reuters, Ahram Online, Thursday 28 Nov 2013

Egyptian police arrested a leading political activist Alaa Abdel-Fattah on Thursday after the prosecutor ordered he be detained for inciting protests, a security official said.

Abdel-Fattah's wife, Manal Hassan, tweeted that policemen beat and insulted her while arresting her husband, in addition to taking their laptops and cellphones.

Alaa Abdel-Fattah was a symbol of the 2011 uprising against President Hosni Mubarak. He was ordered arrested after taking part in protests organised in defiance of a new law that imposes heavy restrictions on demonstrations.

[DeSwiss]

12. The situation is very fluid......

...and NO ONE has the upper hand for any time. This dust is a long way from being settled.

- No one can figure out what's going on now, because we've never seen a worldwide revolution starting before.






[center]''Chaos is required for the veils to fall.''[/center]

[jessie04]

15. The Cycle of Violence continues.

Nt

[quadrature]

23. free the Cairo21 ... nt