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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 06:33 AM Dec 2013

Ukraine Opposition Fears Provocation to Justify Crackdown.

Source: RIA Novosti

KIEV, December 8 (RIA Novosti) – A Ukrainian opposition party said late Saturday that it fears the authorities may deploy provocateurs in order to precipitate violence at a major ongoing anti-government protest rally in the capital and justify a robust crackdown.

The warning comes as opposition forces have called for one million people to come onto Kiev’s streets Sunday in a show of defiance aimed at forcing the government to yield to demands to resign. Conditions for defusing the current crisis outlined by a coalition of opposition politicians Saturday include the formation of a technical government.

Batkivshchyna (Fatherland), led in parliament by Arseny Yatsenyuk, said in a statement that it believes around 1,000 people have been enlisted to provoke clashes on Independence Square, which is currently cordoned off and occupied by pro-EU demonstrators.

“We warn the government that we know about these plans. We appeal to people on Independence Square to be vigilant,” the statement said. “We urge law enforcement officers to prevent clashes and not be complicit in acts of provocation."

Read more: http://en.ria.ru/world/20131208/185356933/Ukraine-Opposition-Fears-Provocation-to-Justify-Crackdown.html



Pot to kettle - the protesters had already been accused of having a substantial number of provocateurs amongst themselves.
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Ukraine Opposition Fears Provocation to Justify Crackdown. (Original Post) dipsydoodle Dec 2013 OP
Is there a Tahrir square in Kiev? another_liberal Dec 2013 #1
I really believe that Putin's... JimboBillyBubbaBob Dec 2013 #2
Because that part of the Ukraine wants to join Russia? happyslug Dec 2013 #9
Ummm, that's how agents provocateur work. They infiltrate the demonstrators. Ace Acme Dec 2013 #3
yep LiberalLovinLug Dec 2013 #4
"and that's why we had to hire the Dnipropetrovsk Maniacs! for security!" MisterP Dec 2013 #5
Why not just nab the provocateurs? seveneyes Dec 2013 #6
Like the bulldozer stuff ? jakeXT Dec 2013 #7
Well I suppose you could that provacation.. dipsydoodle Dec 2013 #8
 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
1. Is there a Tahrir square in Kiev?
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 08:44 AM
Dec 2013

With enough numbers on the streets and the Western media on their side, they could just pull it off. It might then lead to Ukraine splitting in half, but they could take President Yanukovych down.

JimboBillyBubbaBob

(1,389 posts)
2. I really believe that Putin's...
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 11:21 AM
Dec 2013

...long range plan is to split Ukraine and seize its eastern portion. Be vigilant protestors.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
9. Because that part of the Ukraine wants to join Russia?
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 10:17 PM
Dec 2013

Remember, the Eastern part of the Ukraine has most of those Citizens of the Ukraine who claim Russian ethnicity. This is also the power base on the present party in charge of the Ukraine.

On the other hand, 77.8% of the population claims to be Ukrainian, only 17.3 % claim to be Russians:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine

Thus while the present Government of the Ukraine has greater support in those areas with higher Russian population, it also gets massive support from Ukrainians. 17.3% of the population can NOT win a Majority of elections.

You also have to remember that East of The Silesia Mountains, you have nothing but Steppes till you hit the Pacific (the Ural Mountains is NOT that much of a barrier, and easily bypassed by going over the Steppes on both sides of the Ural River:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ural_River

Now, because it is easier to move items by boat then any other method, rivers tend to unite people. In the rest of the world you have Mountains that can separate people, but the Ural Mountains, generally is to cold for pasturing of animals or farming, thus most people live South of Urals Mountains, where farming and Pasturing of Livestock is possible. While the Ural Rivers flows through some mountains on its way to the Black Sea, in the areas where it flows north to south these areas are steppes not mountains. It is only when the Ural River goes east-west that it goes through mountains, Given this the Ural River is not a barrier to any east-west trade (May slow down travel but not stop trade).

Thus the people of the Steppes are identified more by the Rivers they use and thus live on, then anything else. Furthermore when one people end and another begins has always been an arbitrary line in the sand. It has always been the rule that people in such situations have a hard time deciding which group they belong to. A good example would be someone living in Northern parts of Ohio, Indiana or Illinois, do they see themselves as people who live in the Valley of the Great Lakes, or the Ohio River Valley? The rivers in those areas all flow south, but it is a flat walk to the Great lakes (In those states, and Pennsylvania, and New York, any river or other stream that flows into the Great lakes is less then 20 mile long. Rivers as close as 10 mile to the Lake Erie flows into the Ohio River instead of the Great lakes. Thus if people on the Great Lakes saw themselves as different from the people in the Ohio Valley, where do you fit those people who are within easy walking distance to rivers going both ways? Such people are in both drainage areas, so who are they if the people in along each body of water as a separate people?

I bring up the Great Lakes and the Ohio, for given we are talking about the Steppes what someone calls himself (or herself) tends to be based on which river they view as the main river in their life. Thus a Pole is someone whose life revolves around the Vistula (and the water that flows into it), a Ukrainian is someone whose life revolves around the Dnieper River (and the water that flows into it) and the People of Russia are people whose live revolves around the Volga River, the Don River , and the Northern Dvina River, all connected by the Volga-Baltic waterway (and the water that flows into all four).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga%E2%80%93Baltic_Waterway

In my comments about the Great Lakes and the Ohio Valley, it is a moot point as to who the people between those bodies of water call themselves for the people who live in that area call themselves "Americans". Russians around Moscow have done the same things for Centuries, they are Russians for they speak a Slavic language and live on or in the drainage area of the Volga, Don, Northern Dvina or the Volga-Baltic waterway.

That is NOT true of the People living on the Vistula and the Dnieper Rivers. People on those rivers speak a Slavic language but view themselves as the people most identified with those rivers. If your family saw the Vistula as your main transportation highway over the last 1000 years, you are a Pole. If your family view the Dnieper, or the Dniester river, (please note the Dniester River watershed has a huge non-Slavic speaking minorities, Moldavians and Romanians), both of which flows into the Black Sea within 170 miles of each other. If you spoke a Slavic language and you saw either of these two rivers as your major transportation Highway you call yourself a Ukrainian. If you live around Moscow, the rivers around it, the Don and the Volga, you called yourself a Russian. These names stayed with you, even if you moved elsewhere over the last 200 to 300 years (and remember we are talking about groups of peoples who spoke a Slavic Language, for that is the dominate language group in this area of the world)

Side note: In the upper reaches of the Dnieper River you enter Belarus. This is separated from the Ukraine by Pinsk or Pripet Marshes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsk_Marshes

The problem with the Eastern Ukraine, is that the Seversky Donets River flows through it. In fact that river flows out of the Ukraine and into Russia before its reaches the Don River (after flowing into the Ukraine from its source),

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seversky_Donets

Please note, people have moved over the last 1000 years, most people see themselves as a member of a nationality is only about 200 years old, thus you have people who call themselves Russians, for when they adopted a Nationality, they lived in the Water Shed of the Volga and other rivers of Russia. Today, many Russians (and other nationalities) live outside these areas, but still call themselves whatever was the national group they family called themselves, when nationality became something people wanted to know about some one.

Now only the Southern part of the Seversky Donets River is navigable, the part that is all in Russia, but like all rivers Roads and Railroads follow the river. This river has a huge Russian Nationality population AND economically more tied in with Russia then the rest of the Ukraine AND Europe.

Just pointing out that the Eastern Ukraine may feel it fits better in Russia then it does in the Ukraine.
A comparison can be made with the Rio Grand Valley in Texas. The Rio Grand Valley is overwhelmingly Mexican-American (and Democratic, in elections these counties all go Democratic). If the US Government and economy was in the pits, while the Mexican Government was running well and had a booming economy, would the Mexican Americans living in that Valley really object to Mexico taking over the Rio Grand Valley? Now, today, the Mexican Government is not that stable and Mexico's economy is NOT in good shape, thus today the Mexican-Americans in the Rio Grand Valley would prefer to stay in the US, but if the situation was reversed, i.e. the US had severe economic and internal security problems, while Mexico was relatively stable (Little problems with its Economy or Internal Security), would the Mexican American population in the Rio Grand Valley prefer rule by Mexico then the US and Texas? Think about it.

In many ways my hypothetical on the Rio Grand Valley, is very close to the situation in the Eastern Ukraine. Overwhelming Russian Population, strong economic and trade ties with Russia, as dependent on the Don and the Volga Rivers as the Dnieper River for transport? The Don and Volga Rivers are Russian rivers, the Don flows into the Black Sea the Volga flows into the Caspian but they is a 65 mile Canal between the two. The Dnieper River flows through the Ukraine pass Kiev and in many ways defines the Ukraine as a nation (much like the Nile defines Egypt, another river state).

Volga-Don Canal:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volga-Don_Canal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seversky_Donets

Thus Putin may want to divide the Ukraine, but the part he wants may also want to be part of Russia NOT the Ukraine. Thus the split may not only be pro-Europe and pro-Russia, it may be an East-West divide. The problem may NOT be resolvable for the simple reason the West does NOT want to lose the Eastern Ukraine.

This dispute reminds me of the Religious dispute that divided the Eastern Roman Empire, from the Fall of the Western Roman Empire to the Arab Conquest, Monasticism. I will not go into the details of that religious dispute, but to point out one side was based in the Capital Constantinople and present day Greece and Turkey, while the other side was based in Egypt with a strong hold from Syria to Egypt (in many ways the West had a problem even at that time to understand the argument calling is an argument over nothing, but no longer being under Roman Control did not have much influence).

The Key to understand that dispute is NOT to read what was said, but who was saying it. Native Greek Speakers from Greece and modern day Turkey took one side, the Egyptians and the people from Syria to Egypt, all of whom spoke various variations of Modern Arabic, took the other side (and for this reason I will call this Group "Arabic Speakers" through at that time the dominate language of the group was Egyptian but they wrote in Greek).

Once you look at who is speaking, you quickly see it is less a dispute over dogma, but a dispute between the Arab Speakers and the Greek Speakers of the Eastern Roman Empire over who should rule the Empire. I suspect the same problem in the Ukraine, this is NOT over to Join Europe or Join Russia, it is who who should rule the Ukraine. Both sides wants the Ukraine to go one way or the other as a whole, not to divide the Ukraine. Again similar to the dispute over Monasticism in the Eastern Roman Empire, both sides wanted the Empire as a whole to be ruled by them and follow them, not work out a compromise between the two sides of the dispute.

I mention Monasticism, for another reason, it died out as a dispute between the Churches after the Arab Conquest removed the area from Syria to Egypt from the control of the Eastern Empire. Once the Eastern Empire became a pure Greek Empire, the dispute no longer mattered. The Arab Speakers took the same attitude, the Greeks who had opposed them no longer mattered once the Arab Speakers were no longer under the Eastern Empire. These Arabic speakers cut deals with their Islamic overloads, these deals generally in most cases these Arab Speaking Christan's were left in control of the economy, while the Arabs just ruled from the top. Until the Egyptian revolution in the early 1950s (and the whole sale thief of the Country by the Generals of the Modern Egyptian Army), it is believed 1/2 of the wealth of Egypt was in the hands of the Christians of Egypt. Thus the Economy of Egypt may have been Christian dominated till the 1960s.

This divide between Russians who live in the Ukraine and Ukrainians who live in the Ukraine is based less on their ethnicity and more on Economics. i.e. the Russians living in the Ukraine, seeing their ties with Russia, believe greater ties with Russia would be in their best interests. While the Ukrainians, who are living in the Ukraine, see their future with Europe. Both sides wants ALL of the Ukraine to go their way. The Ukraine as a whole is economically stronger then two smaller Ukraines, thus both sides wants the Ukraine as a whole.

In many ways the problem with the Ukraine is the same as the problem with the Eastern Roman Empire about 450-650 AD, Which way to go? Right now both sections see different directions that would make then richer, but want to take the other half with them. If the Ukraine stays united, both sides wants the Ukraine to go the way that benefits them, but that also means whoever loses the fight will lose out economically, i.e. they become a tail, while the other side becomes part of the body. That seems to be the real dispute, who is to rule the Ukraine, the group whose economic interests is with Russia, or the group whose economic interest is with the West. I hate to say this, this dispute will last until either the Ukraine is divided (as had been the Eastern Roman Empire) OR it goes with Russia as a whole. I do not see the Eastern part of the Ukraine going with Europe, it loses to much. At the same time, does Europe wants just the Western half to two thirds of the Ukraine? Is it worth it to Europe to hold that part of the Ukraine?

Does Europe want the Dnieper Bug waterway open? (One river dam is all that prevents it from existing, i.e. an inland water system from the Black Sea to the Baltic). One problem with that Canal is it is in Belarus, and the major beneficiaries would be Poland and the Ukraine (but the section in Belarus is up and running, it is the section in Poland that needs rebuilt).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper%E2%80%93Bug_Canal

Furthermore, does Europe wants to get involved with the Dispute over Transnistria? While Moldavians make up the largest group of citizens of that Break away republic, it is less then 50% of the population, with Citizens claiming Russian and Ukrainian nationality, the second and third largest nationality in Transnistria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria



 

Ace Acme

(1,464 posts)
3. Ummm, that's how agents provocateur work. They infiltrate the demonstrators.
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 01:53 PM
Dec 2013

Then they engage in acts of violence or vandalism to give the police an excuse to beat up everybody.

Here's a case in Toronto. When the phony protestors were exposed as troublemakers, they took shelter behind the police lines. Their boots appear to be police-issue.




LiberalLovinLug

(14,169 posts)
4. yep
Sun Dec 8, 2013, 05:14 PM
Dec 2013

One blatant thing the police did was leave an unoccupied police car in the middle of the street and then disappear. Then a couple of provocateurs ran out and and jumped on top and then lit it on fire. Not a real policeman in sight, they were too busy a few blocks away busting the heads of peaceful protesters. It made for a great headline news shot that burning police car.





This method is being used the world over for governments to quell any criticism of curbing citizen dissent and protest.

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