Pope's crackdown on order alarms traditionalists

[onehandle]

Source: AP



VATICAN CITY (AP) — Pope Francis may have been named Time magazine's Person of the Year, but he has come under scathing criticism from a growing number of traditionalist Catholics for cracking down on a religious order that celebrates the old Latin Mass.

The case has become a flashpoint in the ideological tug-of-war going on in the Catholic Church over Francis' revolutionary agenda, which has thrilled progressives and alarmed some conservatives.

Then-Pope Benedict XVI launched an investigation into the congregation after five of its priests complained that the order was taking on an overly traditionalist bent, with the old Latin Mass being celebrated more and more at the expense of the liturgy in the vernacular.

Benedict, a great admirer of the pre-Vatican II Mass, had relaxed restrictions on celebrating the old Latin Mass in 2007. While the order was in turmoil over this liturgical issue, the dispute at its core comes down to differing interpretations of the modernizing reforms of the Second Vatican Council, which include the use of local languages in Mass that some considered a break with the church's tradition.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/pope-39-crackdown-order-alarms-traditionalists-144337707.html

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[Demeter]

1. What difference does it make?

People aren't stupid, not most of them, not really. They can follow a translation, or go to the local language Mass.

It's a religion, not a prison.

[onehandle]

3. The Old Latin Mass placed separation between the priest and the people.

He even said Mass with his back turned to the congregation, making them largely unnecessary.

People got used to the change quickly and greatly preferred it.

After 50 years, there is no going back.

[Kingofalldems]

6. I remember those days as an altar boy.

[mitchtv]

17. I remember them too

and much of the Latin prayers

[Berlum]

7. Hierarchy up the wazoo - It's kinda the Mass done Republicon Style

control and domination...the kinda stuff the repubbie-minded souls tend to embrace.

[PatrynXX]

8. sounds like the latin idea

is a side order of BDSM

[Enthusiast]

33. Precisely...............nt

[westerebus]

4. They are the ultra Conservative wing.

The darker part of the middle ages, where they would rule, is where their outlook resides.

It may be they are being informed they need to get with the current program.


just speculating...

[Katashi_itto]

25. Latin mass is also an Opus Dei thing. they are one group that would like to see the pope dead

[westerebus]

40. Opus Dei is to the RCC what the --- is to the US government.

I'll let you pick which lettered organization(s) fits the bill of particulars.

[LeftyMom]

12. It's not so much the language, it's the rest of the baggage that goes along with it.

The groups pushing for latin mass and other old school stuff (wafers only on the tongue, ladies in mantillas, frowning even on NFP except in extreme medical circumstances) tend to be super bigoted against women and POC and Jews.

edit: No small number of them are schismatic enough that they deny the authority of the Pope anyhow, so they'll probably just split off and start their own church for Catholics who are more Catholic than the Pope. That's seemed to be their trajectory even before Benedict stepped down.

[greiner3]

22. Had to look up the term mantillas;

I got pretty good at holding my breath during mass in the early and mid 60s while not giving a damn what the bag of wind was saying, first in Latin and then English, much less attending any of the services where there was guitar playing and all that happy crap of the late 60s.

[pnwmom]

13. This is all about a much larger issue: whether the order

has rejected Vatican II. Insisting on adherence to the Latin Mass is just one of the ways they have been rejecting Vatican II, which was supposed to decentralize power in the Church and increase the involvement of the laity. They can't be involved if they can't even speak the language.

From the OP:

"He suspended ordinations of new priests for a year and required future priests to formally accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and its new liturgy or be kicked out."

[Hekate]

28. He did what?! ~~ I have to say, the article makes interesting reading

The Vatican in July named the Rev. Fidenzio Volpi, a Franciscan Capuchin friar, as a special commissioner to run the order with a mandate to quell the dissent that had erupted over the liturgy, improve unity within its ranks and get a handle on its finances. In the same decree appointing Volpi, Francis forbade the friars from celebrating the old Latin Mass unless they got special permission, a clear rollback from Benedict's 2007 decision.

In the weeks that followed, traditionalists voiced outrage: four tradition-minded Italian intellectuals wrote to the Vatican accusing it of violating Benedict's 2007 edict by restricting the Latin Mass for the friars, saying the Holy See was imposing "unjust discrimination" against those who celebrate the ancient rite.

Volpi though was undeterred: He sent their founder, the Rev. Stefano Maria Manelli, to live in a religious home while he set about turning the order around.

And on Dec. 8, he took action, issuing a series of sanctions in the name of the pope that have stunned observers for their seeming severity: He closed the friars' seminary and sent its students to other religious universities in Rome. He suspended the activities of the friars' lay movement. He suspended ordinations of new priests for a year and required future priests to formally accept the teachings of the Second Vatican Council and its new liturgy or be kicked out. And he decreed that current priests must commit themselves in writing to following the existing mission of the order.
http://news.yahoo.com/pope-39-crackdown-order-alarms-traditionalists-144337707.html

Something about that vow of obedience, brothers....

[pnwmom]

30. Yeah, they're all about the power of the Pope -- until the Pope

says things they don't want to hear!

[Historic NY]

2. There are lots of cult like followings in the RCC...

my little local church had one, people came for a 100 miles around until the Bishop put his foot down...with transfers. They also shut down an order that had these almost Benny Hinn type services. I believe the Pope is correct in getting "his house" in order.

[Bradical79]

5. Well, tradition says...

Pope 's the boss. So, tough beans I suppose.

[rickford66]

9. As a lapsed Catholic ...

who cares? Most of the people I grew up with, including the Catholic school kids would say the same thing. Good people will still be good and bad people will still be bad.

[pnwmom]

14. A lot of Catholics care about Vatican II one way or another.

This is the larger issue here. This order has been rejecting Vatican II. Insisting on the Latin Mass is just a piece of it.

[rickford66]

16. This is like GM trying a new management plan

Most Catholics and many priests don't follow the church rules so why should the rest of us care?

[pnwmom]

19. You asked who cares, and I answered.

Millions of practicing Catholics care, and millions of others who left because the Church wasn't living up to the promise of Vatican II.

[rickford66]

20. you are correct

I apologize. I realize some people care. I should have said what difference does it make? We sent our son to Catholic Schools for 7 years. Every couple years his school would be closed down and he'd be enrolled in another school. This was because of a shortage of funds. All the while the Bishop was raking in the dough for his favorite charity. We didn't lie like many of the parents who joined a parish to get reduced tuition. We paid full price and it wasn't cheap. The students and teaching staff suffered because of the closings. Do I care what the Pope does? Nah. New management style. Yes. Will priests still molest kids or bonk willing female parishioners? Of course. Will the Vatican money vaults be open to help the poor? Not a chance. That money you put into the collection plate on Sunday would be better spent somewhere else. One more thing. Just as the military is run by the enlisted, the Church keeps going because of the nuns. Not all nice ladies, but mostly competent, uncorrupted and dedicated. Hats off to them.

[pnwmom]

29. We agree about the nuns.

And I am going to be watching to see if the relationship between the Vatican and the nuns improves.

(And no need to apologize. You were just stating your opinion. Thanks for clarifying, though.)

[rickford66]

34. something my Dad always said

My Dad almost became an RC priest. I grew up hearing the mass sung in Latin on Sunday mornings at home. He didn't go to church regularly. He always said "If you don't like the rules, don't join the club". I hope the rules evolve for you.

[pnwmom]

39. Thank you. I think the promise of Vatican 2 for those of us

younger than your dad was that it was supposed to give the laity a real voice in those rules. And many of us who heard that promise still want to hold the Church to it. So we're feeling some hope with Pope Francis.

[theHandpuppet]

10. This truly belongs in the religion forum

Don't you think?

[Dawson Leery]

11. Very few people speak latin.

The Pope is right to reign these old orders in.

[Moonwalk]

21. Isn't that kinda the idea? I mean, the priests are the go-betweens, right? god makes the bread...

...into body, the wine into blood through their hands, not anyone else's. They say certain prayers that others do not, on behalf of the people so the message goes to god and back down through them to the people.

I mean, that was what that schism with Martin Luther was all about, right? Whether god needed a priest to get blessings and message to the people, or whether people could get everything directly to and from god. Reading the bible themselves, in their own language, saying prayers in their own language was part of reformation's message that priests were not needed in order for people to access god.

Which is to say, it makes sense to me that if a religion is all about the need for priests in order to access the divine, then the priest should speak a "divine" language that only the ordained understand.

[onehandle]

24. So what is Pat Robertson divining?

The Martin Luther wing of Christianity seems to have resulted in a tight partnership with the Republican Party and the 1%.

[Moonwalk]

27. Relevancy of your point? My point was simply one reason why the schism happened. I stated a fact...

...part of the reformation was all about doing away with priests and having people read the bible for themselves, etc. If that eventually evolved into religions that now hypocritically argue that their "priest/pope" (obviously not called that, but that is what someone like Pat Robertson is, the "Pope" of his church) is the only one that can gain salvation for their followers, well, then, they've hypocritically gone against their origins.

That's not my problem, not my point and not something I really care about.

You, however, seem to be equating the reformation with the birth of born-again Christianity and it's influence in conservative American Politics. If you're arguing that the Catholic Church has been on the progressive, democratic, 99% side, however, then you're conveniently forgetting that it's been in bed with Republicans and conservatives for a very, very, VERY long time. And certainly of late or did you miss the part where they were fighting Obamacare because they didn't want to give insurance to women if it included contraception?

The current sins of religions that evolved from Luther's reformation don't excuse the current sins of the Catholic church. Both, in recent years, have been religious bullies using their vast wealth to force their beliefs on the 99%, be it by removing abortion rights to preventing gay marriage.

[markpkessinger]

38. Actually, this is bad Eucharistic theology . . .

. . . For the Sacrament to be valiid, there <i>must</i> be a congregation (even if only consisting of one other person). It isn't just the priest and God -- it is the priest, God <i>and</i> the gathered community.

[dipsydoodle]

15. Not an order for a takeaway then.

[demigoddess]

18. Don't they see that they are celebrating Mass

in the language of the people who crucified Jesus??? Doesn't seem terribly christian to me.

[Monk06]

23. He's going after Opus Dei. That's what this is about.

[pnwmom]

31. I'd love it if he did. n/t

[Dawson Leery]

37. He would earn genuine respect if he took that horrible organization out.

[KittyWampus]

26. in esoteric Catholicism, it does matter whether rituals are spoken in Latin. It matters in terms of

meaning and effect.

That said, those who care most about retaining the Latin verbiage are LEAST likely to be attuned to esotericism.

What that leaves are the overwhelming majority of clerics and laity for whom vernacular carries most meaning.

[Ken Burch]

32. It might not be so bad...

...if those who insist on celebrating the Tridentine Mass would at least omit the prayer that demands "the conversion of the Jews".

But, as with most of organized Christianity, it's taken a long time for Rome to accept that Jewish people(and Wiccans, and Muslims, and Native Americans)have the right to be left alone and allowed to live on their own terms rather than accept forced conversion to the "true" faith.

And the refusal to accept that, for nearly two millennia, has soaked large areas of the world in the blood of the innocent.

I say this AS a Christian, btw.

[MBS]

35. Bravo!

The money quote:

Francis has called Benedict's 2007 decree allowing wider use of the Latin Mass "prudent," but has warned that it risks being exploited on ideological grounds by factions in the church; Francis has made clear his disdain for traditionalist Catholics, saying they are self-absorbed retrogrades who aren't helping the church's mission to evangelize.

[olddad56]

36. tradition- the practice of doing something the same way as always, even if it is wrong...

or no longer makes sense. Why, "because that is the way we have always done it".